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DrDooma
Posted - 2009.02.19 05:20:00 - [211]
 

"Once a year, you - and everyone else - can take 14 attribute points, and re-arrange them within reason. "

I LOVE YOU!

On a side note:

"A new player has no idea what the attributes means and, as many of you probably have done, assigned 3 to charisma because it must be awesome!"

Hmmm, scary. I did that. We really are all exactly the same in our own individual way.

Misaniovent
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2009.02.19 05:23:00 - [212]
 

There is this misconception that you cannot compete in Eve for months -- that you need millions of skillpoints to be successful and useful. This is, of course, wrong, but it is an understandable point of view, because Eve is full of mistakes that are easy to make.

One of these mistakes is not training learning skills early on or even in the first six months. Which is understandable, because for a new player, learning skills are expensive (especially advanced ones).

Now we will have new characters with 750k fewer SP, who therefore have even more issues making money, and more skills to train and purchase. I hope you reduce learning skill prices and put huge notices in the tutorial that you need to have them. Better yet, drop the books in the hangars the moment they start.

Seriously though, I hope there is more to this that's coming in the next devblog.

LegendaryFrog
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.19 05:47:00 - [213]
 

Does ANYONE not agree that the learning skills are a stupid idea and should be removed in some way as soon as possible?

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.19 06:24:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Digital Solaris
Who is Steve Thomas? The troll of the month?

Perhaps, but that doesn't change that he's right IMO. It's been obvious to me and a lot of others from the start that the changes are 'a good thing'[tm].

Stop thinking about SP and your alts, and instead imagine how the first couple of weeks will be for NEW players.

Shylock Nicodemus
Posted - 2009.02.19 06:30:00 - [215]
 

I don't see what the fuss is about. You realize that if you look through the current careers your starting points are between 40,000 to 100,000 before your specialization. Over half of that 800,000 you start with is from the 2 level 5 skills most paths start with. You can get a very basic fit with a frigate in 8,000 skill points, with a bunch of level 1 skills. Even if they all started at Level 2 that's still around 40k skill points, which opens up your options considerably. Thats with guns, AB, etc. Will you do anything really well? No. But you will have the absolute basics for anything you'll need to start off with. Will it take you a couple of hours to get into a specialty skill? Sure.

No more instant alts. Bummer. Make one now if you really need one.

Don't even get me started on learning skills. If you feel 'forced' to spend your first month on learning skills, that's your problem. If you want to min/max, fine, do it. Don't whine about how it's incovenient. Especially with the skill que coming up.

Poluketes
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.19 07:09:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Gaius Sejanus
Not sure what kind of new players you're accustomed to, but the vast majority of them I've seen over the last 3+ years don't want to spend all their initial time training to be a sacrificial tackler. Most aren't all that interested in PvP to begin with at all. The hardcore 0.0 PvP crowd is the 10% minority of EVE.

I see your point but given that pvp and user-conquerable space is the key, heavily advertised selling point of Eve and the fundamental thing that distinguishes it from WoW, making things harder for newbies interested in pvp is backwards. Especially since it wouldn't be that hard to tweak this new system to not penalize pvp newbies.

Bump it to 150k fully customizable SP so newbies can get into a barebones tackling frigate from the moment they download the trial (an actual upgrade over the current system!). Then they can choose to either slog through the empire tutorial missions immediately or head out to 0.0, try the pvp, decide they love the game, and then put in their time grinding the empire missions once they're convinced to keep playing. It would be even better if they could opt out of the missions altogether and still get the mission SP, if they knew they were going to be playing with in-game mentors. Maybe as a lump gain on day 30, to give the good little grinders a temporary advantage.

Originally by: Gaius Sejanus
With the training speed bonus, you don't actually end up with fewer points once you're a couple weeks into the game.

This new system is probably better for newbies by day 30, but if the game can't sell itself in the first day or two, day 30 is irrelevant since no one will subscribe. The first 24 hours is key, and stripping away user choice and forcing newbies to grind solo missions isn't very compelling gameplay.


Originally by: Gaius Sejanus
Furthermore, there's an alt member of the FNA who has less than a million total skillpoints, and yet is a very successful lowsec pirate (200M bounty...well, it was up to that before he podded himself to collect it, -10 sec rating, the who business). Skillpoints aren't everything. They aren't even close.

Goons don't need to be convinced that low-SP players are valuable. Smile But there's a huge difference between 2m SP and 50k. There's a huge difference between even 800k and 50k or 150k and 50k. That's what the debate is about. One's useful off the bat, one's not.

Pure Manergy
Gallente
The Sobani
Aegis Militia
Posted - 2009.02.19 07:26:00 - [217]
 

The learning skills add depth, you're all mad because you have to train them instead of your "1337 MiSsIlE sKiLlZ".

kano donn
New Path
Posted - 2009.02.19 07:29:00 - [218]
 

umm.... this is just me but what the hell kind of gamer would spend months and money learning skills that have no impact on gameplay.... im a few months old and never got all learning up to 5. i just learned what was useful at that moment. it was awesome. now i have to learn my lv 5 skills and so now im investing in learning. its ok now because i can fly most t1 and a few t2. along with a good corp and good killing ability. its fun.

it seems like this would only apply to those that are making an alt. they want a char that will be pwn right away... seems kinda silly and lame.

and hell ppl. look at the abilities that a noob will have. they will be able to select all their skills and pick at what lv it will be at. look back to your char when you made it. how many skills did you have that were pointless or just one lv to high. now you can pick all of it.

also look at what ships you flew. you prob got just one frig and went right for dessy of hell, even cruiser. did you ever even look at the other frigs? they are not just there to be there. imagine haveing to ever one to be able to fly anything better. it would make it a much rewarding experience.

now think about this. the people that are new and that are being helped by this new update might actually have fun with it. they can really customize there char. and even their ship (did i read this right, they get a t3 frig?)

so lay off all you people that want to power game. it may be fun for you but you know that it will ruin the game and experience of others. lets just give this new idea that ccp has a chance. it may actually work... hell, just undock and look around. they made all that you see and use. they prob know a bit about what they are doing.

Qianzing Yanshu
Caldari
Eve Inc. - DE
Posted - 2009.02.19 08:45:00 - [219]
 

I have a question about reassigning and the limitation between 5-15

As you can clearly see, my character is of the Achura Bloodline with a base Charisma of 3.

My questions:
1) Will I be forced! to place 2 more points into a for me so far unimportant attribute as soon as I want to reassign my attributes? Keep in mind, that the stated minimum is 5...

2) Do these extra 2 points be subtracted from the regular 14 points, so that I only have 12pts to distribute?


Gemberkoekje
Gallente
Foundation
Posted - 2009.02.19 08:58:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: DrDooma
"A new player has no idea what the attributes means and, as many of you probably have done, assigned 3 to charisma because it must be awesome!"

Hmmm, scary. I did that. We really are all exactly the same in our own individual way.


Same here. I actually ended up with 3 base perception cause I had no idea what it's all about.

And that is a pain if you're learning BS5 for carriers (45-ish days T_T)

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2009.02.19 08:59:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Qianzing Yanshu
I have a question about reassigning and the limitation between 5-15

As you can clearly see, my character is of the Achura Bloodline with a base Charisma of 3.

My questions:
1) Will I be forced! to place 2 more points into a for me so far unimportant attribute as soon as I want to reassign my attributes? Keep in mind, that the stated minimum is 5...

2) Do these extra 2 points be subtracted from the regular 14 points, so that I only have 12pts to distribute?


As far as I can tell, you just won't be able to pull points from an attribute if it is already <6.

CCP Fear

Posted - 2009.02.19 09:57:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Qianzing Yanshu
I have a question about reassigning and the limitation between 5-15

As you can clearly see, my character is of the Achura Bloodline with a base Charisma of 3.

My questions:
1) Will I be forced! to place 2 more points into a for me so far unimportant attribute as soon as I want to reassign my attributes? Keep in mind, that the stated minimum is 5...

2) Do these extra 2 points be subtracted from the regular 14 points, so that I only have 12pts to distribute?




You won't be forced to change from 3-5. But if you do decide to reassign, then you will have to add 2 into that one.

The functions are simple. Every player has the same X amount of base attributes distributed in various ways. Using the 5/15 min max, you get that you have 14 points left to move around.

If you have 3 in one, then your 2 are already high in another. So yeah, you still have 14 points to distribute, but you will have to fill up the 2.

Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
Posted - 2009.02.19 09:58:00 - [223]
 

I still don't like the respec but at least its effect will be less pronounced based on those attribute ranges, i.e. it won't be possible to put every single point in perc.

One other thing you guys need to make sure on is the starting characters have all the basic skills to fly a fully fitted tier 3 frigate out of the box, preferably with racial frigate 4 to streamline the process of getting into a cruiser. One of the most frustrating parts of starting off under the oldschool system was coming out as, for example, Caldari and being unable to use shield boosters and light missiles to equip a basic Kestrel.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.19 10:07:00 - [224]
 

Edited by: Steve Thomas on 19/02/2009 10:08:15
[whoops misspost

Navtiqes
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.02.19 10:08:00 - [225]
 

Nice blog and good stuff, CCP :)

You might want to look at Certificates again too, because I've met alot of newbs who thought they needed certs to be able to do stuff. The general idea behind certs as guides are alright, but the execution is confusing.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.02.19 10:34:00 - [226]
 

making new chars/alts/toons was like model trains or boobies:
meant for the youngest but the ole' guys play with them all the time

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.02.19 11:02:00 - [227]
 

Edited by: Typhado3 on 19/02/2009 11:23:38
Originally by: LegendaryFrog
Does ANYONE not agree that the learning skills are a stupid idea and should be removed in some way as soon as possible?


me.. I like the idea that if you put your effort into it you can come out with better sp, it also helps those who have patience. Saying that it was about a year before I got the advanced all the way up to 4 and the basics to 5, then not till 3 years that I got all advanced to 5. I wouldn't cry if they where removed though cause I'd understand ccp wants to please the much larger number of ppl who don't like them (or at least I wouldn't cry if it was done in a way that was fair to those who did invest time in those skills).

Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2009.02.19 12:25:00 - [228]
 

Edited by: Syekuda on 19/02/2009 12:37:36
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.


I have to agree with Vyktor here, when I train people to play the game, at one point or another, I always say to train the learning skills. The reason is obvious of course but for them there clueless because they don't know the game and those skills.

When they learn about it, they don't like it at all. I know some people from eve when they started to play the game, they were really happy about it, pvp, pve, exploration, mining, you name it they can do it with some hours of skill in it. Of course, its not the best since they don't have lvel 5 but they can do lots of things here so they felt really good about it. But as soon as I started to talk about the learning skill tree, they freaked. I know some even quit the game because they wont wait 1-2 months to start learning skills in a shorter time.

So in all, yes, max those skills and play the game right away. Or better yet, modify the attributes or formula about the time it takes to learn the skill if you ask me.

At the same time maybe I will get flamed for this but I feel it should be said here since it has a link to this post. This blog is meant to make the game more compelling and a bit more easier (ie. by changing attributes). Heres one idea (which I will post or reply too if its not made yet in the F&I forum): make a couple of systems, an arena, section of space, deadspace or whatever you call it a place where people can go and fight with their ships... BUT.. frig t1 only, cruisers t1 only. With that kind of limitation, I bet new players would feel more welcomed and would try out pvp way more.

I don't think a new guy likes to get caught in a gatecamp by 2 BS's in a low sec. or getting caught in an asteroid field by a BC and then you see 3-8 BS's warping on you...not good.

p.s: I know the last 2 paragraph has nothing to do with the skill attribute point of this blog but since its to make this game a bit "easier" in some way, I feel I should of said it.

p.s.s: feel free to flame if you wish but try to be constructive how of it please.

CCP Fear

Posted - 2009.02.19 12:35:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Syekuda
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.


I have to agree with Vyktor here, when I train people to play the game, at one point or another, I always say to train the learning skills. The reason is obvious of course but for them there clueless because they don't know the game and those skills.

When they learn about it, they don't like it at all. I know some people from eve when they started to play the game, they were really happy about it, pvp, pve, exploration, mining, you name it they can do it with some hours of skill in it. Of course, its not the best since they don't have lvel 5 but they can do lots of things here so they felt really good about it. But as soon as I started to talk about the learning skill tree, they freaked. I know some even quit the game because they wont wait 1-2 months to start learning skills in a shorter time.

So in all, yes, max those skills and play the game right away. Or better yet, modify the attributes or formula about the time it takes to learn the skill if you ask me.


So... does everybody hate the learning skills?

Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.19 12:36:00 - [230]
 

Edited by: Alezra on 19/02/2009 21:05:55
Edited by: Alezra on 19/02/2009 12:45:41
Incoming wall of text, you've been warned, TL;DR will be at the bottom.

Ok, I've seen eight pages of whining with a few older players actually chiming in as a voice of reason. Can any of you look past easy skill selection for alts and carefully manufactured characters? New players don't know anything about what skills they might need in the future other than very vague sensations based on skill titles (gunnery sounds important)

Forget the knee jerk reaction about 80k being not enough for a new player. Let's do a breakdown of skillpoint totals for some starter fits shall we? Gallente since its what I'm most familiar with.


A Navitas with a mining fit:
  • Gallente Frigate II

  • Hull Upgrades I

  • Navigation I

  • Afterburner I

  • Shield Operation I

  • Engineering I

  • Mining I
5,078 SP



An Imicus with an astrometric fit:
  • Gallente Frigate II

  • Hull Upgrades I

  • Navigation I

  • Afterburner I

  • Shield Operation I

  • Engineering I

  • Astrometrics I
5,578 SP



An Incursus with a level 1 mission fit:
  • Gallente Frigate III

  • Repair Systems I

  • Mechanic I

  • Energy Grid Upgrades II

  • Engineering II

  • Science I

  • Navigation I

  • Afterburner I

  • Small Hybrid Turret I

  • Gunnery I
26,070 SP



A PVP tackler Atron:
  • Gallente Frigate II

  • Hull Upgrades I

  • Propulsion Jamming I

  • Electronics III

  • Small Hybrid Turret I

  • Gunnery I

  • Navigation I

  • Afterburner I
34,570 SP


Bump that PVP Atron up to 145,158 SP if you want to use an MWD which should take about three days with the new skill point acceleration. Hell, you could probably do it in two if you knew what you were doing.

I'm frankly embarrassed that CCP Fear has to put up with this crap (I know he's reading since he replied a little while ago.)



TL;DR: You don't need 800k SP to have fun in your first week


Edit: I realized after posting this that I kept using the 80k number instead of 50k for new SP start totals (over-passionate while posting I suppose.) I'm acknowledging my mistake but I won't change the above text since it reflects my original argument (and the original argument still holds true with 50k or 80k)

Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2009.02.19 12:41:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
Originally by: Syekuda
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.


I have to agree with Vyktor here, when I train people to play the game, at one point or another, I always say to train the learning skills. The reason is obvious of course but for them there clueless because they don't know the game and those skills.

When they learn about it, they don't like it at all. I know some people from eve when they started to play the game, they were really happy about it, pvp, pve, exploration, mining, you name it they can do it with some hours of skill in it. Of course, its not the best since they don't have lvel 5 but they can do lots of things here so they felt really good about it. But as soon as I started to talk about the learning skill tree, they freaked. I know some even quit the game because they wont wait 1-2 months to start learning skills in a shorter time.

So in all, yes, max those skills and play the game right away. Or better yet, modify the attributes or formula about the time it takes to learn the skill if you ask me.


So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


I can't speak for everybody but when I started to play this game, I hated it since I couldn't train the skills I needed to help my teammates. instead I was stuck training those skills. for example and just to be clear, when you train those learning skills, you can't train to fit your scramblers or use something else. lets face it, 2 months of learning spent on skills that has nothing to do with your attribute points is more beneficial. Theres a really huge gap. If removing them (thats what I want) is out of the question, make it shorter...way shorter to max them.

Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.19 12:45:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.

So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


I didn't mind them, but I'm a masochist who thinks skilling up for future growth is "a neat idea."

Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2009.02.19 12:46:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: Syekuda on 19/02/2009 13:05:13
Originally by: Alezra
Incoming wall of text, you've been warned, TL;DR will be at the bottom.

Ok, I've seen eight pages of whining with a few older players actually chiming in as a voice of reason. Can any of you look past easy skill selection for alts and carefully manufactured characters? New players don't know anything about what skills they might need in the future other than very vague sensations based on skill titles (gunnery sounds important)
...
stuff here
...

TL;DR: You don't need 800k SP to have fun in your first week


in pvp, sure that might be enough, mining and exploration too. But missions... mhh I don't think so. 1 on 1 fight with an npc on your first day's with those skills, you could manage it easy but when your doing missions, you got more than 1 and since your beginning you don't really manage the game well at first so those skills are really not enough. You'll need more.

EDIT: fixed the quote, way too long.. oops

Phlegia
Posted - 2009.02.19 12:47:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear

So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


I'm sure that there aren't many players, who like the learning skills. Get rid of them, give all players a boost to attributes and give the players, who already trained the learning skills a boosted skill-training till they catch on with the lost SP. Then nobody should be able to complain.

Pytria Le'Danness
Posted - 2009.02.19 12:48:00 - [235]
 

Edited by: Pytria Le''Danness on 19/02/2009 12:51:19
The learning skills were a terrible bump for me and I could only handle them because I put in a "fun" skill between them every now and then. It was pure boredom for a month (you had to get the low skills to V back then to get the advanced ones) where my character seemingly stagnated.

They are however required to have if you want to play for a longer period than just a month or too, and that should be the goal to achieve with the NPE. Make players go "Wow, I want to do that", not "Something called 'Learning Skills' for a month? Bleh."

To force mindless drudge on the new player will only scare him away.

When I started out I wanted to log in, jump into my mighty frigate that was so much better than everything else (read: noob ship) and make giant strides towards my first cruiser.

The only advantage of the "new and improved NPE" I see is that the new player sees progress in his skills - it was a bit frustrating to see the training times at hours and even days for a new character using the current system, but at least they are capable of doing something fun and rewarding.

Taking away most of the skillpoints at creation is like telling someone "Hey, all those small papers with the weird numbers must really confuse you. I'll help you and take them off you, and once you get used to this 'money' concept you'll have enough I bet."

For me this appears more a way to prevent old players from making insta-alts (and thus forcing them to pay more cash to CCP) than "helping" new players.

If you want to help new players give them more information, do not take away things because it might confuse them.

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.19 12:59:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
Originally by: Syekuda
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.


I have to agree with Vyktor here, when I train people to play the game, at one point or another, I always say to train the learning skills. The reason is obvious of course but for them there clueless because they don't know the game and those skills.

When they learn about it, they don't like it at all. I know some people from eve when they started to play the game, they were really happy about it, pvp, pve, exploration, mining, you name it they can do it with some hours of skill in it. Of course, its not the best since they don't have lvel 5 but they can do lots of things here so they felt really good about it. But as soon as I started to talk about the learning skill tree, they freaked. I know some even quit the game because they wont wait 1-2 months to start learning skills in a shorter time.

So in all, yes, max those skills and play the game right away. Or better yet, modify the attributes or formula about the time it takes to learn the skill if you ask me.


So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


Not me personally. There has to be ways to increase learning ability independent from how much money you have. It may as well be skills.

Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.19 13:00:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Syekuda
Originally by: Alezra

*stuff*


in pvp, sure that might be enough, mining and exploration too. But missions... mhh I don't think so. 1 on 1 fight with an npc on your first day's with those skills, you could manage it easy but when your doing missions, you got more than 1 and since your beginning you don't really manage the game well at first so those skills are really not enough. You'll need more.


Probably don't need to quote my entire post back, if people wanted to read what I said then they already read it.

I'll admit, I fudged on the level 1 mission frig since its been a while since I've done them. Regardless, even if you added a half dozen other skills and trained everything to level 3 you'd still be within two days of training from account creation.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.02.19 13:14:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear

So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


It would be better to say, that there aren't many who like them. The problem is ofcourse that, if you just give them to everyone, it would be very painful to the players who actually maxed them. Months of training down the drain and lot of ****ed off customers. For them brutal violation with a nightstick might seem a less painful proposition, than just giving max learning skill away to everyone.

What I would like to see is that new players get most(maybe all) of the learning skill right from the start, with all basic skill at lvl4 and advanced at 1 or 2. They still have the option of devoting extra time to them, if they wish to do so, but they wouldn't be at a real disadvantage, if they focus on something completely different.

I'm not sure how good an idea it is though, but almost anything will be better than removing existing skills from the game. Learning skill are in the game, so you will just have to live with them. If you really think they were a mistake, you should just minimize the time people have to train them to an acceptable level. The 5/4 split is propably the most common, so minimize the time it takes to train that, while trying not to screw over the people who have invested heavily in learning skills.

Tedric
Genco
Posted - 2009.02.19 13:25:00 - [239]
 

Edited by: Tedric on 19/02/2009 13:35:17
edit: more text added.

Well, I feel compelled to reply (and I don't reply that often).

I have been encouraging friends to try EVE for almost 5 years, but this change to 50k SP may just kill off all interest.

The problem is with 50k, is that you cannot do anything usefull. Let me clarify the use of the word 'useful' here.

Usefull is where a newbie is able to step into the big world of EVE for the first time and get into a tier 1 frigate to use his/her racial weapons and mining laser. Useful because that can DO something. Not being able to DO SOMETHING is the quickest way to loose the new player.

Everything you do for the new player NEEDS to make them feel USEFUL/WORTHWILE/SOMETHING. If you do this, the player will come back for more.

What is also useful is a few points in things like eletronics and armor/shield stuff.

I would suggest a preset package offered to all newbies, this takes a seemingly COMPLEX choice out of their hands, simplifies the character creation process AND also puts everyone on a fairly even playing field.

This should not 800k SP, but it will be something less.

I have one friend who is trying EVE and finding the new player experience exasperating, mostly because he has no clue WHERE to find stuff or HOW to find stuff. But this is not what we are talking about here.

tedric

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.02.19 13:27:00 - [240]
 

OK
respec once for vets good
respec twice for noobs [Ok ...]
90K SP for noobs [bad but only for those people who think that >SP == win , I've played on sisi with a new character -
starter missions are fine - and you get to train new skills fast - and the skill queue helps - you can even get the 1st level learnings done ]

I think it is good in that you don't get 800k SP to begin with - that always felt like xploit - now you have to train even for alts - this means you have to think before you do stuff - this is good

this only really hinders people who want to jump in and join a corp battle right away, - noobs will still buy character and loose it all because they don't know how to fight anyway

I think it is a good change - though maybe extend the accelerated learnings to 2Mil Sp ...



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