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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.19 00:50:00 - [181]
 

Actualy at this point I would say a compromise would be to triple or quadrupal the SP gain to 800k then drop it to 2X untill 1,600,000, and add in some more slills to the training process.


teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.02.19 00:54:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
Actualy at this point I would say a compromise would be to triple or quadrupal the SP gain to 800k then drop it to 2X untill 1,600,000, and add in some more slills to the training process.


At which point the player stops playing because they hit the brick wall and holy **** I'm not waiting that long to train skills. Messing with the rate at which people train skills is a very bad idea.

Digital Solaris
Posted - 2009.02.19 00:59:00 - [183]
 

Who is Steve Thomas? The troll of the month?

BCE 3AHRTO
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.02.19 00:59:00 - [184]
 

Edited by: BCE 3AHRTO on 19/02/2009 00:59:52
*check whether this is april 1st*

*nope*

ehhhhh, what the hell is wrong with you, whoever came up with this ridiculous scheme? Reducing skill points to 50k? Don't treat your players as rettards, spending the time figuring out what you want is an important part of an MMO. Yes, eve is slightly more difficult than something like WoW but it should be! As someone mentioned before, get rid of the learning tree entirely, reassign skills to those newbies might use, give them a chance to respec more than once a year (once a month for the first year maybe) but taking away a million skill points and making newbie characters useless is simply stupid and wrong, no pc way to talk about this.

Oozinator
Posted - 2009.02.19 01:02:00 - [185]
 

Starting with 50k skillpoints is a terrible idea and just makes new players basically worthless.

Most the other changes I've read about for the upcoming patch sound excellent, this is just terrible though.

mark atrelli
Posted - 2009.02.19 01:10:00 - [186]
 

hmm.... we have some greedy people here.

the other day i was bored and made a caldari missile alt. spent a day with skills.
in a kestrel, it killed a noob in npc corp before concord pwned me.... thats wrong and the reason for the nerf.

p.s. dont worry i gave the noob a new and better fitted ship with my appreciation.

Itzena
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.19 01:20:00 - [187]
 

You know what's going to be the best part of this?
In the next expansion, CCP will hype up their "amazing new idea" of starting newbies at higher skill points so that they have less training time.

DarkStar251
Posted - 2009.02.19 01:50:00 - [188]
 

I want CCP Fear's babies.

Quite apart from anything else, being able to reallocate attribs will:

A) Mean that every chr created is not Caldari Achura
B) Mean that the older bloodlines are worthwhile again
C) Do what it is designed to do - Stop newbies fretting over choices they have yet to understand
D) Allow me to get rid of my 28 Charisma finally!!! (I created in May 03, and thought it was a safe assumption that Charisma = cheap stuff, and back then there was nobody to tell me different :( )

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.02.19 01:50:00 - [189]
 

Edited by: Typhado3 on 19/02/2009 01:50:36
when the attribute redistribution comes out I plan to max out my charisma and do a year long training plan, goodbye all leadership skills and marketing skills.

charisma 4tw

will probably do similar on my other characters, I've always been a sp ***** (all learnings to 5) and now I have ways of actively working and planning to get that little extra sp out. this should be interesting, as long as ccp don't decide to remove it while I've got my character all maxed out in one thing this should be good.

Vin'calis
Interstellar Federal Forces
Forged Dominion
Posted - 2009.02.19 01:52:00 - [190]
 

This partly reiterates what many people have already mentioned in the thread regarding reducing SP for new characters.

In my opinion:

CCP think that at present characters start with too many (confusing) skills. Up to a point I agree.
CCP appear to dislike the instant-trade/tackler/whatever alt creation. Changing this is fine by me.
CCP want to simplify the character creation/skillset process for newbies. This is a good thing.
CCP seem to want to use tutorials to put skills in context and make them relevant. Great!

Issues I foresee:

-> A significant proportion of new players do not do tutorials. Anyone who has spent considerable time in the Help channel can attest to this. At best, many will do part of the tutorial and give up/get distracted. If invited by (and given ingame assistance from) a friend a new player may miss the tutorials entirely. These players risk losing out.

-> This method increases the learning curve/creates double standards for new players. Right now you start with a set of skills. You learn how to train them, and you struggle to figure out how to buy a few more on the market. If lucky you pick some useful ones. With the new method you are granted skills as tutorial rewards (from what I gather - please correct me). You have a skill tree to figure out, a skill queue to figure out, and a lot of tutorials that may or may not sound relevant to you at the time. You leave with the impression that skills are mission rewards and don't even consider the market until you visit the Help channel. The tutorial reward/market purchase duality seems unnecessary.

-> The new method cuts away a lot of questionably useful skills and drastically reduces starting SP. I don't have a problem with either of those per se, but I think it could be implemented better. For example, there are a number of core skills that most players would agree are essential to any player or vital to a newbie in a frigate. Just ten skills (frigate, spaceship command, a few support skills like electronics/mechanics) to fairly low levels wouldn't be too much to take in. Besides, they're all worth training even if the new player hasn't yet worked out quite what they all do!

-> Most of all I feel that the 750k SP being cut out of a new character is about 2 weeks training that could be spent without damaging gameplay. We all detest training the learning skills. New players detest them even more, because they're told that they should really train them to get more from the game overall, but face a daunting month or more of training something completely irrelevant to their playstyle. So newbies train learning, get bored, and leave, or they don't train learning and feel bad that their character is somehow sub-par. Or they go for a middle ground somewhere, which is still sub-par. I think that new characters should be granted Learning V, and the basic learning skills to IV in addition to the 50k SP mentioned in the dev blog. This would save newbies over a week of frustrating learning-skill-training, which can only be a good thing.

-> I greatly dislike the idea of a speeded-up SP rate for the first few weeks. Why? Because a newbie will only have experienced that rate. They will be used to that rate. They may not even realize that it's an accelerated rate at all. And then suddenly they get penalized: their SP increase rate has halved! This gives the impression of taking away from the new player - which cannot be a good thing.

Heh. Sorry for the wall of text.

SmokeyJones
Posted - 2009.02.19 02:00:00 - [191]
 

Thats the coolest news i ever seems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ExclamationExclamationExclamationExclamationExclamationExclamation

Ranis Kirahn
Posted - 2009.02.19 02:05:00 - [192]
 

I have to say I'm not pleased with this as a solution. Most every change to EVE I have silently applauded in the last few years I've played, but this suggests to me that your character really is nothing but a set of attributes. His history is unimportant, his race means little, his defining attributes are completely mutable.

I can understand allowing some amount of shift to compensate for inexperience and simple character growth, but this is excessive.

permion
Posted - 2009.02.19 02:32:00 - [193]
 

Seriously remove the learning skills. It's the best update you could ever do for the new player experiance. So many shiny skills that actually advance the character and you have to advance the lamest in the game sometime soon™. Not only that it's obvious that you're doing everything in your power to cripple alts with this update, why not get rid of skills that are the most famous alt fodder ever.

People who have trained them can get the 2x training bonus for the number of SP they have invested in them then another 10 percent on top of that. I doubt you'd get many complainers outside of the normal ones who call any update a WoW-iz-ization of EvE.

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.02.19 02:38:00 - [194]
 

I like the idea of reducing the sp and increasing training time now that I think about it a little. however I would suggest making it 2x training speed to 2-2.5 mil sp rather than 1.6. That would give it a clear advantage and would also make up for ppl training the wrong skills, you could even give players an option of "start with standard skill pack by answering these questions" OR "start with a temporary bonus to training speed to catch up".

The main problem I see with this is new players don't know what they are doing and will train hybrids for their super fast minmatar sniper ship (yes I almost did that in noob days). Tbh I don't see this as a problem as it is making eve more sandbox which is something fundamental to eve.

As for being able to get into ships and whatnot faster with the old 800k system, with the new system you should be able to see what you want and get their faster rather than being limited to what only your skills allow while you wait for the slower training to get there.

Sagacious Z
Minmatar
Megaton m3 Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.02.19 02:39:00 - [195]
 

Dev Team: regarding your "From character creation (goodbye complicated UI and career choices)," . . .

As a new player, I saw nothing at all complicated about the character creation and career choices.

I fear that many changes will negatively affect the game. All you really needed was a guide-- a well done guide in PDF format that could be downloaded and read.

You didn't need to change things, you just needed a well written guide.

Tipz NexAstrum
Celestial Horizon Corp.
United Corporate Ventures
Posted - 2009.02.19 02:46:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: CCP Skellibjalla

From 'Character Creation and The EVE New Player Experience'
Essentially, we are shaving off what has been considered by subscribers and the media alike, to be “mandatory training time” during which there is little people can do, and allowing people to start doing something sooner. This criticism has been consistent and as it has played out (and I will get into that later), it has become at least partially true.
.
.
.
EVE is a slow-burning game that is about forging your own destiny in a virtual world. It should be fun and involving from the start. As it played out, it has projected the image that it requried players to sit and do nothing but train skills for weeks before being able to enjoy simple aspects of what players eventually find attractive about it. This image was unfair to those that played the game when it came out in 2003 when nobody had resources to do anything, but it had become more of a reality.


Aside from busting up guitars and losing their straps, where is this guy these days? Given that the Revelations revamp of character creation largely dealt with the disparity of SP in the options, it also directly addressed the issue of "I can't do anything for three weeks". Now it seems we have forgotten the hard learned lessons of the past and are ready to crawl back under the rock we came from.

The solution to "I don't know what all these skills do" isn't to roll back the process to RMR and sprinkle some magic pixie training dust on it. The problem needs to be addressed in the tutorial and game documentation.

The solo new player needs a basic level of functionality to run L1 missions at a minimum upon completion of tutorials. The buddy new player needs to be able to contribute something to their in game friends out of the box. I can understand the goal to balance these needs with the undesirable effects of disposable alts and whatever, but what I have seen on SISI and in this blog is turning back down the road from which we came.

P.S. Remove learning skills!

permion
Posted - 2009.02.19 02:58:00 - [197]
 

Seriously forum goers tend to be the most hardcore of the hardcore of your game base. These are also the same people who almost ALWAYS love mechanics that let them get that one step up on someone else. IE: learning skills

If these people/us are telling you that a "step up" mechanic is bad, it's well horribly horribly insanely bad.
____

Assuming the first postulate holds true which most would say it does. You've probably even said/heard the same thing at whatever meetings you do have.

Lysander Kaldenn
Dead Reckoning.
Posted - 2009.02.19 03:05:00 - [198]
 

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 19/02/2009 03:06:26
Unless I misread it the patch notes, new characters will have a bonus to training time to make up for the loss of base skills.

Under in Testing:

"New characters now receive a bonus to skill training speed when under a specific SP level. This is to account for the removal of many of the automatic starter skills. The bonus is temporary and only until the player catches up with "modern" characters (i.e. those that start with 800k skill points today). Namely, the player gets a 100% bonus from creation and until he reaches 1.6 Million Skill Points, regardless of the time that takes. A player is shown his current % bonus to his skill training in the character sheet underneath the total amount of skills and skill points."

edit: all been said, sorry i jumped ahead of the 7 page scary walls of text... :)

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.02.19 03:24:00 - [199]
 

give players more skills at level 1 or improve current sisi tutorial.

caldari character without simple missle skills really messing you up with the military agent gives you a crow and two rocket launchers, and you can't fit them.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.02.19 03:25:00 - [200]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 19/02/2009 03:26:25
Originally by: Oozinator
Starting with 50k skillpoints is a terrible idea and just makes new players basically worthless.

Most the other changes I've read about for the upcoming patch sound excellent, this is just terrible though.


lies it makes them better. double skill train, plus you don't have to waste time training things to level 5 when you could have 5 level 4 skills instead.

you don't need a lot of those skills, and it's good to read each skill as you buy it to see what it does.



that said....

New players still need like... amybe... 100,000-200,000 starting sp.

oh and remove advanced learning skills from the game.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.02.19 03:28:00 - [201]
 

LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.

Devian 666
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2009.02.19 03:39:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.

Yes give the attributes and remove learning skills completely. What I loved about eve is that you spend a month or two training learning skills so that you can start training your character. Worst design decision ever.

As a new player you struggle to rat in 0.6/0.7 with very low skills. The proposed 50k sp mean start your skill queue and then don't play eve at all, just log in for the skill queue every 24 hours.

Try to come up with ideas that will get people to log in and actually play eve.

Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.02.19 04:05:00 - [203]
 

I started with less than 50k skillpoints, and I wasn't worthless then, and remain err...worthful...now. The starting with 800k hasn't been around all that long in comparison to the game as a whole.

What's really sad is the number of Achura weenies who are whinefesting about their total stat dominance coming to a partial end. Suck it up. You went onto the superstat bandwagon, and now the playing field is being evened. Be grateful for all the time you've had with such a powerful advantage, and SHUT UP. You're like Paris Hilton complaining about only being able to afford 5 $1000 handbags instead of 10 because the economy has gone downhill.

The thing which concerns me is the issue of removing schools. Where will new players end up, corp-wise? One big holding corp for all new players (spammy and overcrowded), the current starting corps? The various racial catch-all post player corp corps?

Rektide
Posted - 2009.02.19 04:12:00 - [204]
 

You incredibly special snowflakes tried giving characters squat for skill points for years and it resulted in countless newbs quitting after the first three weeks of flying around without any equipment. I salute your bravery in marching back into those harsh brutal times; insane suffering is so much of what makes EVE grand and I appreciate that you'll sacrifice so many subscriptions to bring back such honest and hard-core game mechanics.

Rin Taleda
Posted - 2009.02.19 04:21:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Devian 666
...What I loved about eve is that you spend a month or two training learning skills so that you can start training your character. Worst design decision ever.


If that's what you did, you are pretty stupid. A game is to have fun. So what if you lose a couple weeks of training over two years by not training learning skills first?

Plan out the first two weeks just to have fun and get into the ships/career you want, then plan out the next month throwing in the learning skills that make those skills complete faster.

Poluketes
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.19 04:30:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
and we have yet another person who is not listening

1) the tutorial as you go through the steps gives you skill books and modules and explains what is going on as she does so

2) the skill training is accelerated(by 100%) untill you hit 1,600,000 sp then throtles back to normal learning

3) with respecing you can further speed up skill training by setting your base points to 15-9 or 10-10-9 instead of the base 8-8-7-8-8


Those random irrelevant facts are nice but my concern was specifically about the time it takes in the current system vs. this new one to get into a useful pvp ship (tackling frigate). It's 21 hours in the current one and reportedly 48 in the new. In the old you don't have to grind missions to get there, in the new you do. An extra 27 hours isn't nearly as bad as the dev blog made it sound but it's still a definite downgrade for pvp newbies.

I get that the new changes might be better in the long run for a newbie. The problem is that they're undeniably worse in the short run. First impressions are important. If someone downloads the trial wanting to pvp and is unable to do so for at least two days and until they grind x hours of solo missions, they're going to lose interest and go play another game. Even if they hang around, you're effectively shortening their free trial by days while they twiddle their thumbs in empire. Why force newbies to do solo missions when they could be out in 0.0, doing the whole MMO interacting-with-other-players thing, learning from mentors (who understand the game far better than CCP), influencing giant battles, and actually having fun?

Logically I'd expect CCP to be trying to attract pvpers and encourage people to go out into 0.0, since it's the pvp and 0.0 that makes Eve special. These proposed changes hurt pvp newbies. So logically the proposed changes are bad. But I don't know, maybe the idea is to turn the game into hordes of highsec mission runners so none of this matters.

Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.02.19 04:36:00 - [207]
 

Quote:
I get that the new changes might be better in the long run for a newbie. The problem is that they're undeniably worse in the short run.


I'll deny it. Not sure what kind of new players you're accustomed to, but the vast majority of them I've seen over the last 3+ years don't want to spend all their initial time training to be a sacrificial tackler. Most aren't all that interested in PvP to begin with at all. The hardcore 0.0 PvP crowd is the 10% minority of EVE.

Most new players I encounter (and I've encountered tens of thousands) just want to figure out how this whole thing works at all. Then they immediately want to know how to get into a battleship.

50k might be somewhat too small. Maybe it could be 100k with some relevant support skills tossed in there. But making arguments that the new system is bad because it takes too long for a new player to learn how to tackle...that's a complete non-starter. They don't WANT that, so not being able to do it...really not much of a drawback.

Zzelle
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.19 04:51:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Gaius Sejanus

Most new players I encounter (and I've encountered tens of thousands) just want to figure out how this whole thing works at all. Then they immediately want to know how to get into a battleship.

50k might be somewhat too small. Maybe it could be 100k with some relevant support skills tossed in there. But making arguments that the new system is bad because it takes too long for a new player to learn how to tackle...that's a complete non-starter. They don't WANT that, so not being able to do it...really not much of a drawback.


I don't see how reducing the starting skillset helps them. A lot of the basic fitting skills and so on are needed to fly BS, and being able to fly halfway decent frigates while training up the rest of the skills you need to fly a BS gives you something to do besides waiting for skills to train.

I'm just amazed at the whole "fewer skills is better!" mentality here. Given how much time one burns training things, I'd always sign up for as many free skills as I could get upfront, wouldn't you?

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.02.19 04:59:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Gaius Sejanus
I'll deny it. Not sure what kind of new players you're accustomed to, but the vast majority of them I've seen over the last 3+ years don't want to spend all their initial time training to be a sacrificial tackler. Most aren't all that interested in PvP to begin with at all. The hardcore 0.0 PvP crowd is the 10% minority of EVE.


There's a reason that goonfleet has been successful. It's not because they run new players through boring tutorial missions. It's because they throw noobs into massive fleet fights and they go holy **** this is awesome before they even know how to use their guns. There is a hook to this game and it's not sitting in station spinning a noob ship which is all you'll do if they only give you 50k to start with.

Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.02.19 05:10:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Gaius Sejanus on 19/02/2009 05:20:18
Edited by: Gaius Sejanus on 19/02/2009 05:13:08
Your definition of success differs rather substantially from mine and many others.

I simply am telling you what the OVERHWELMING MAJORITY of new players I've encountered feel, prefer, think, and do. I could maybe count on one hand the number who expressed an interest in tackling when they started.

Furthermore, there's an alt member of the FNA who has less than a million total skillpoints, and yet is a very successful lowsec pirate (200M bounty...well, it was up to that before he podded himself to collect it, -10 sec rating, the who business). Skillpoints aren't everything. They aren't even close.

If 50k is too low; come up with something better. The current system isn't really that great. All I'm seeing here is an endless parade of whining.

Quote:
I'm just amazed at the whole "fewer skills is better!" mentality here. Given how much time one burns training things, I'd always sign up for as many free skills as I could get upfront, wouldn't you?


With the training speed bonus, you don't actually end up with fewer points once you're a couple weeks into the game. If you do hardcore Learning straight out, you'll end up being much better off than now, because you double speed through the Learning to get it done that much faster, and benefit from it all the sooner. 5/4 Learning is 2.2 million. 1.55M is most of that. Damned near all of it, if you don't train the two Charisma skills. So you get Learning done twice as fast as now, and then spend the rest of your time in the game benefitting from that super trained speed.

So, I'm also rejecting the "this is less skillpoints" arguement.

--EDIT: Ohyea, in case you were wondering (which I'm sure you weren't), since this new newbie mechanic information was released, there has been a great deal of discussion about it in the starter corporations (or at least, in the one I'm in, I presume it's true of the others as well), and I have yet to hear anyone say it's a bad thing. The general feeling is "Why can't this be live now, so I can take the most advantage of it?". So the newbies you think you're trying to help by this whinefest...don't want your help.


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