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Jerat
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:14:00 - [91]
 

What we the "veterans" and the new ones wants is:

800k Noob undocks from station in a rifter and says "Ohhh cool ship, lets see what it can do".
If he is lucky someone takes him under his wings and learn him how to PvP and maybe he even can use webber/scrambler the first day and he will be usufull for a corp almost at once.

What new ppl will get as it sounds now is:

50k Noob undocks in a noobship, at the same time another player indocks in his rifter. New player says "Ohh cool ship, I wonder how long it will be befoer I can fly that"
Crapp I have to wait 3 days before I can fly it.
Well I can always put skills on training and go play some WoW while I wait.

Who of these 2 will have most fun in EVE the first week?

Fal Dara
Gallente
Obsidian Asylum
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:14:00 - [92]
 

having started in 2004, i know what it's like to start with low points. i started with a grand total of 6k points.

you heard that right.

it took several months to get to a million SP's, and there were no such thing as advanced learnings yet.

it was a miserable, grinding hell. and even if i could have trained skills twice as fast, it STILL would have been a miserable grinding hell.

now, i can understand why CCP would want to re-vamp the current 800k points newbie starters. I also think they forgot why they created them in the first place (hello! 6k points!! SUCKED!). BUT, re-vamp the 800, knock it down to 400/500 ... dont allow skills in there that allow weird alts to be created for us old guys (like research/lab alts, cyno alts, market alts, etc etc--get RID of those) focus on a TON of small skill to help NEW players..

50k is just wrong, that's back to the stone age.

Fal

Amarr Holymight
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:15:00 - [93]
 

Also if you are so concerned with improving the new player experience why are you lengthening the amount of time they have to catch up with olders players surely that makes it even more offputting? Would it not be a better idea to give them 800k in learning straight off the bat?

Lady Lard
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:16:00 - [94]
 

The stats changing is cool but the newbie nerf is really stupid.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:17:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Amarr Holymight
Also if you are so concerned with improving the new player experience why are you lengthening the amount of time they have to catch up with olders players surely that makes it even more offputting? Would it not be a better idea to give them 800k in learning straight off the bat?


No, a better idea is abolishing training skills altogether and adjusting stats upward. Anything else is really just stopgap stupidity.

Alexander Huxley
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:18:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Alexander Huxley on 18/02/2009 17:19:04
All i can say to CCP is: EVE will grow. Slowly but it will grow. It is not needfull
to kill the soul of EVE. Maybe it will help to make the cashflow quiqer, but think about the price you pay.
EVE is still a unrivaled MMORPG. Save this capital. Keep the thrill.

Snowden Vel
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:20:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Iraf Thaiberd
I get it, I really do.

New players have a large number of skills and that can be confusing and intimidating. The character creation system didn't really do anything at all to explain what the skills being chosen were, or how the attributes being chosen mattered. You're removing a lot of those skills new players were starting with from the pre-sets, hoping it will be less intimidating.

I get that. It's also completely wrong. You see the problem and instead of fixing what is broken, you're tearing down the whole thing and leaving new players with nothing.

50K is jack. 50K is nothing of substance in learning, ship use (even frigates), weapons, etc. You are USELESS in this game at 50K SP. Remember that? YOU GUYS (CCP) KNEW THAT! That's why you raised the starting SP to 800k. At 800k you could hop into a racial frigate and and go DO STUFF!

You're going the completely wrong direction here. What you SHOULD be doing is fixing the character creation experience so that it EXPLAINS what the new player is choosing and what the skills offered actually do in the game (instead of just the skill name which may or may not be relevant).

This is a huge mistake, and telling new players "ok here's your 1/16th of starting skill you would have gotten last year, you can enjoy training nothing but learning skills for at least a month at DOUBLE THE SPEED!" is so throughly an incorrect decision that I am left wondering if some of you have part-time jobs in your country's banking industry.


This, this is a cogent explanation of why the skillpoint change is completely flawed.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:28:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
Edited by: CCP Fear on 18/02/2009 13:16:29
Originally by: Braaage
You state attributes can be changed once per year, it was every 6 months on Sisi - which is it?

Also are there any plans on increasing the starting ISK since you can't buy any skill with 5,000 ISK you get once started.


Things on Sisi change. Sisi should have the current and correct version up now.

New players get 2 respecs
All other players get 1
Cost is 0 ISK
1 year cooldown timer

No plan on increasing the starter ISK, we are however looking at rewards for the early days. We do not want to increase the starter isk, as it could be exploitable quite easily.


well the skills you got in the tutorial were a bit muddled in places. One sudgestion I have is to change refining ef to requre mining 2 or 3

as for easily expploited . . . well you did introduce the bug that lets you score three indis in the tutorial.

/jumps back into the game to check out the tutorial

Digital Solaris
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:32:00 - [99]
 

If CCPs intention is to let the new players experience the basics of industry, business and military careers through missions, wouldn't a logical reward be skill ranks in the players choice of career?

I also think that the missions needs rethinking too, one (good) idea would be to expand even further on the 10 career missions by letting the players experience different roles in the career path, like combat support roles, manufactoring, invention so the new player will see the potential in that choice of career.

Rongar Maximus
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:37:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Illiya
Not to toot our own horn or anything, but GoonSwarm is one of, if not the, most newbie friendly organizations in the game.
[Tinfoil]That is the whole point of this. To reduce the effectiveness of Goonswarm's Noobswarm.[/Tinfoil]

I too remember what what it was like to start with 80K sp and you spent most of your time training learning skills to then train the real skills to do things without dying all the time. Seriously CCP, WTF? What research supports this change?

Vir Hellnamin
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:37:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Vir Hellnamin on 18/02/2009 17:38:25
Talks are that the new-player missions are more solid in learning / talking about skill et.c.

Haven't tested this, since SiSi was previously (not the #80k build running) mess for rookie missions...

I really hope that the training missions are more solid, and better instructions are given to rookie to find those agents - for all industry/invention/combat parts of the game...


Carsidava
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:43:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
Originally by: Genya Arikaido
Edited by: Genya Arikaido on 18/02/2009 13:57:16
Quote:
Who needs Siege Warfare when you are fresh out of military school? Are you going to siege a POS in your Velator?


I'm sorry, but you fail miserably here. Siege Warfare has NOTHING to do with assaulting a POS, It's a leadership skill for fleet bonuses. ...and you're the one redoing the NPE? *shudder* l2p/gb2wow/noob/ibtl/etc... Rolling Eyes



My point is that it's a skill that is irrelevant to a new player. The connection to sieging a pos is entirely on the name but not the skill.
Is there any chance of getting someone at CCP who knows about Eve to comment on this thread? You're showing all the signs of being a new hire who got thrown in the deep end.

Kathryn Dougans
Amarr
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:43:00 - [103]
 

The school corp that you start in is important for RP, as well as being one of the first points of contact with other players to learn about things.

Starting in the Federal Naval Academy, longer term players there will tend to know more about combat than industry, compared to the Centre for Advanced Studies.

Someone starting, who is interested in industry, but is randomly assigned to FNA, is going to have a harder time than someone assigned to CAS.

It's also a part of your character's employment history. Removing the ability to choose starter corp is a bad thing, for RP and for the new players.

BiaXia
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:44:00 - [104]
 

This is by far the worst idea you guys have had since the removal of ghost training. Do you guys even PLAY your own game? Cutting a newbie down to 1/16 of their skill, even at an increased rate is just going to kill the flow of new players to the game. You know what happens when you do that, right? The MMO dies, and more importantly to you guys, you don't make any more money. I've tried to get people into this game, and I will admit they were intimidated away by it, but this is seriously the stupidest possible thing I can think of that you could ever do. From what I understand, you're trying to bridge the gap between new and old players, all this is doing is taking a valley and turning it into a canyon. The thing you need to understand is that EVE grows DESPITE the devs decision and not because of it. For all your attempts to kill the game, this might be the one that actually succeeds.

Lila Penney
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:52:00 - [105]
 

This is a TERRIBLE change, CCP. All it does is punish newbies. They don't care if 'in the long run' they will advance faster. They want to log in and do something meaningful from the first minute they play.

Punishing new users is awful. I managed to convince someone to play before the 800k boost, and after being told he would have to grind up really basic skills for weeks just to do the most basic things he quit.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:53:00 - [106]
 

God I love the whining over the SP nerf.

*1*. New players ARE NOT going to sit there loging in just to update the skill que, they are going to play the game.

*2* yes this nerfs *your* ability to set up an instant swarm of usefull alts for BPO alts and production slots for example.(which if your honest about it is what you are realy whining like republicans (yes I am one, I dont whine, I voted against thoes idiots in the primaries for the past 6 years trying to get someone who honestly WAS a fiscal conservative into office) who dont quite get the fact that it was THE Assinine policies and drunken manic spending sprees of the very representativs THEY voted into office that got us into this mess in the first place)/rant off

to bad. get over it. Im tired of seeing the lastes swarm of 2 week wondertoons with the names asasrjkldlfh01 asasrjkldlfh02 asasrjkldlfh03 asasrjkldlfh04 asasrjkldlfh05 asasrjkldlfh06 poping out of the station im flying to and doing whatever their money making macro is set up for them to do. (I know CCP actuy does go after the macroers because every few weeks its a batch with new "Randomkeymash+mumber" names but doing the exact same things on undocking)

Illiya
GoonFleet
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:54:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
God I love the whining over the SP nerf.

*1*. New players ARE NOT going to sit there loging in just to update the skill que, they are going to play the game.

*2* yes this nerfs *your* ability to set up an instant swarm of usefull alts for BPO alts and production slots for example.(which if your honest about it is what you are realy whining like republicans (yes I am one, I dont whine, I voted against thoes idiots in the primaries for the past 6 years trying to get someone who honestly WAS a fiscal conservative into office) who dont quite get the fact that it was THE Assinine policies and drunken manic spending sprees of the very representativs THEY voted into office that got us into this mess in the first place)/rant off

to bad. get over it. Im tired of seeing the lastes swarm of 2 week wondertoons with the names asasrjkldlfh01 asasrjkldlfh02 asasrjkldlfh03 asasrjkldlfh04 asasrjkldlfh05 asasrjkldlfh06 poping out of the station im flying to and doing whatever their money making macro is set up for them to do. (I know CCP actuy does go after the macroers because every few weeks its a batch with new "Randomkeymash+mumber" names but doing the exact same things on undocking)



What the hell are you talking about? shut up

Aren Evalin
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:56:00 - [108]
 

This is a poor change for two significant reasons:

As repeated by many, 50k sp is far too few. You have near-zero fitting skills so even if you can sit in a frigate hull, you aren't going to be able to fit any mods to it.

The larger problem is that all these "free" skillbooks that are in a player's head right now are no longer free. How are you expecting new players to pay for these skillbooks? They're flying a shuttle or frigate with no mods on it, if they can mine or mission, they're not going to do it very effectively.

The biggest problem with this game has *always* been the beginning. You're impotent. So why do you want to make starting characters even weaker?

I understand your point about the confusion in starting race/bloodline/career/specialty, the system is completely opaque to a new player. But this is not the way to solve it.

Vorick
Caldari
Neotech Solutions LLC
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:57:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Vorick on 18/02/2009 17:58:26
First of all, me and my college roommate first started playing EVE together back in the day, and we ganged up for missions. Siege warfare would have been an awesome skill to have for us (this was pre 800k sp, though, one reason my roommate quit and I just ghost trained).

That said, I think this is a horrible idea. Newbies don't want to be able to have fun in a month or two, they want to have fun when they start. If you're really determined to make the new player experience less confusing against all the feedback given in this thread, I suggest moving all the SP they currently get to give them 4/4 in *all* normal and advanced learning skills. By my math this works out to 950k sp(an even 1m with the 50k you're currently planning, though I'd still suggest more), and you could even save time and effort by not coding up the skill multiplier system because hey, they'd be training twice as fast anyways! They'd still feel horrible and useless when they started, but atleast this means you wouldn't have all those newbies quit when they have to train learning skills for a month.

Don't get me wrong, I think skill redistribution and a streamlined character creation are both great ideas. But go read anything a new player writes about EVE and you'll see how much they *HATE* being so skill point limited at the start, and that's with 800k sp. If you give new players 50k and say "Don't worry, in two months you'll have caught back up with what you would have been before!" they're all going to quit within minutes.

Tlar Sanqua
Gallente
Gallente Defence Initiative
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:58:00 - [110]
 

I concur completely that New Players should be given at least hte basic learning skills at L4 (hell, I feel it should be 4 basic/4 advanced). It serves two goals:
1) Makes it easier to train new skills so that they can become useful to other corps and feel a part of the community.
2) To stop the message "Train the Learning skills" and killing the number 1 drag on all new characters when they join the game. This way they never have to go through one of the most boring bits of the game and can get on with having fun.

Or the TL;DR version:

I agree with:
Goumindong
adriaans
Casiella Truza
Eleana Tomelac
gordon861

and the hundreds of post we've had on the learning skills. This is an ideal opportunity to deal with one of the weaker points of the new player experience whilst not breaking the goal of reducing starting choices.

Rhum Kach
Decapsuleers Unlimited
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:00:00 - [111]
 

1 year to change attributs, it's tooooo long Sad

Typherin laidai
Amarr
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:01:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
God I love the whining over the SP nerf.

*1*. New players ARE NOT going to sit there loging in just to update the skill que, they are going to play the game.



Yeah they are going to play the game in a terrible rookie ship while they wait for the most basic skills in Eve to train. I am sure that will sell them on the thrilling Eve experience. Look how dumb you are.

Quote:

*2* yes this nerfs *your* ability to set up an instant swarm of usefull alts for BPO alts and production slots for example.(which if your honest about it is what you are realy whining like republicans (yes I am one, I dont whine, I voted against thoes idiots in the primaries for the past 6 years trying to get someone who honestly WAS a fiscal conservative into office) who dont quite get the fact that it was THE Assinine policies and drunken manic spending sprees of the very representativs THEY voted into office that got us into this mess in the first place)/rant off



What are you even talking about? Why are you conflating real life political parties with internet spaceships? And this won't really effect BPO alts. You need to train them up anyhow to get them going and all this will do is add a few days. In return it demonstrably hurts actual newbies.

BiaXia
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:05:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Tlar Sanqua
I concur completely that New Players should be given at least hte basic learning skills at L4 (hell, I feel it should be 4 basic/4 advanced). It serves two goals:
1) Makes it easier to train new skills so that they can become useful to other corps and feel a part of the community.
2) To stop the message "Train the Learning skills" and killing the number 1 drag on all new characters when they join the game. This way they never have to go through one of the most boring bits of the game and can get on with having fun.

Or the TL;DR version:

I agree with:
Goumindong
adriaans
Casiella Truza
Eleana Tomelac
gordon861

and the hundreds of post we've had on the learning skills. This is an ideal opportunity to deal with one of the weaker points of the new player experience whilst not breaking the goal of reducing starting choices.


I could make a new character RIGHT NOW and be having fun with it in less than 3 days, and that's being generous. This game is already hard enough to pick up without a little help along the way, all this serves to do is turn this into an enormous soul crushing experience. I see newbees all the time, I can tell you right now that this is a horrible decision. CCP's going to need to do something extremely fantastic to make the playerbase forget about this, like they did by fixing lag after killing ghost training. I have my serious doubts that the devs even know what people do in their game.

Miner Nine
Caldari
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:09:00 - [114]
 

Hey new players should totally decide their skills for themselves 2 months down the line after already paying us some subscriptions hells yeah

great change, I'll just make 12 alts right now

Wow, your forums are broken massively for IE7

verde shrimp
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:10:00 - [115]
 

Respecing of attributes is a great change and i salute you for it.

However, Characters need to start with those skillpoints. Many of them are very useful and new players will find them useful when mining, missioning, trading, etc. But new players DON'T_KNOW_WHAT_THEY_NEED_YET. So if you give them 50k sp and tell them skills will train twice as fast they will be lost.

If you believe they need a better chance to specialize their characters after they learn the game a bit more start them with something like ~400k and keep the double speed training until 1.6m SP. Then you can at least give them a few more skills so they will be useful immediately and not in 30 days. A new character double training but starting with 50k SP won't even be able to do level 2's for a couple of weeks let alone visit 0.0. This is a huge nerf to what new players entering eve can achieve their first month.

UnitedStatesOfAmerica
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:11:00 - [116]
 

Posting on a internet spaceship company's website, Give newbies max learning skills and navagition skills, I want them to have something I never will.

Also give me full t2 lasers skills, lasers are the way of the future.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:15:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Typherin laidai
Originally by: Steve Thomas
God I love the whining over the SP nerf.

*1*. New players ARE NOT going to sit there loging in just to update the skill que, they are going to play the game.



Yeah they are going to play the game in a terrible rookie ship while they wait for the most basic skills in Eve to train. I am sure that will sell them on the thrilling Eve experience. Look how dumb you are.

Quote:

*2* yes this nerfs *your* ability to set up an instant swarm of usefull alts for BPO alts and production slots for example.(which if your honest about it is what you are realy whining like republicans (yes I am one, I dont whine, I voted against thoes idiots in the primaries for the past 6 years trying to get someone who honestly WAS a fiscal conservative into office) who dont quite get the fact that it was THE Assinine policies and drunken manic spending sprees of the very representativs THEY voted into office that got us into this mess in the first place)/rant off



What are you even talking about? Why are you conflating real life political parties with internet spaceships? And this won't really effect BPO alts. You need to train them up anyhow to get them going and all this will do is add a few days. In return it demonstrably hurts actual newbies.
ok first off *YOU* just proved how clueless you are. Its obvious *YOU* did not even look into the test server to see what is going on.

the old revamped tutorial awareded ships and skills includnig your races industrial if you went through all of it (in fact you got 3 industrials but that was a glitch, you were only suposed to get 2 if you did both the industry and trade set of tutorials) in the end of the complete tutorial I had over 3m in cash and ships.

Right now Im trying to log in to check to see what they changed based on the feedback they got so far.

Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:21:00 - [118]
 

One great thing about today's 800K allotment at time of creation is if a new player notices 2-3 days into a trial that they screwed up, then can just create a new character (under one of the optimal builds) without any significant loss. Any change to this system which means a new player will finish their trial account with less skillpoints than they currently do, is a step backward.

The problem that several have already noted here is lack of documentation (within the character creation interface) about which skills are useful and why.

Also, I like the idea of being able to change attribute points around. However, if it's limited to once in a 12 month period, I probably won't make use of it. Twice in 12 months would be much more useful to train a couple long term skills (like JDC V or Racial [capital ship] V).

UnitedStatesOfAmerica
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:27:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: UnitedStatesOfAmerica
Posting on a internet spaceship company's website, Give newbies max learning skills and navagition skills, I want them to have something I never will.

Also give me full t2 lasers skills, lasers are the way of the future.

I'm worry that Mr. Thomas's horrible mind-numbing post will block out the light of my brillant and well presented post.

Please read this CCP. I need those laser skills, they got a lot of towers. A laser rokh will help a lot.

Lord Myre
Caldari
Heaven's Gate
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:33:00 - [120]
 

AWESOME............CCP just made my 5 accounts very useful. I wll now make me 2 Alts per account with various roles and skills and just sit on them till this takes affect. Then i can sell the 800k style toons to the 50k newbs...........Oh wait I seem to have found one flaw to this idea.....With 50k SP it would take them 2-3 months to make enough isk to even buy decent ship and fittings let alone a character.
Oh damn another flaw to the master plan.....99% would be playing WoW or some other newb friendly MMO by then anyway. Oh well stuck with 10 800k Alts.

Amazing watching a company crash their very own cash cow......Kinda like the stock markets and inndustries in trouble these days.

Starting out at 800k was a decent start and gave a lot to the WOW cool effect as you looked through the market and saw all the items and possibilities. Now take a 50k newb doing the same thing.......well my words would be "Damn" 6 months to fit a PDS whats the damn point to playing a game I cant play for 3 months let alone pay for it.

And lets not all forget the fist time we were popped and podded being stupid. Lost everything and as a newb 1 million isk in ship and fittings is like losing a Mom or Titan. Happened to me and if it hadnt been for a generous person giving me what i thought was a fortune (2m isk) at the time i wouldnt be here now.


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