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Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:20:00 - [61]
 

I really don't know about this, I mean on the surface it would seem like a somewhat large impediment to progress, in practice it might work, I mean when I started with my 200k or whatever it was then in 2004 I immediately went in the opposite direction of most of my starting skills and flew a condor with pulse lasers of missions (heh, good times).

It really depends on how you look at this, on one hand this provides an over-time gaining of the starting skills, giving more informed choices and instant feedback, rather than having to consult some guide or going on somebody else's ideas.

On the other it will make the immediate jump over the proverbial first hump that much more difficult, as people will have to have a rough mastery of the skilltraining system and a good idea of where they are going, which might be difficult without player help, NPC help or not.

As long as the characters that start with this system get the same SP overall over the same period of time as the ones that came before (a 3 month old char under old system compared to a 3 month old char under the new system, for example), and the initial "hump" is made less dramatic it can't be that bad, but it will really take some doing to get people over the initial jump. I've seen many failures over the years, running home to their "familiar" games ignorantly decrying eve as excel in space.

gordon861
Minmatar
PROGENITOR CORPORATION
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:21:00 - [62]
 

The new skill points idea is just plain stupid and a step backwards.

I can see there was a problem with new players pretty much jumping straight into cruisers and just walking the early missions due to higher starting SP. But removing 700k SP from all new players sucks.

Suggestion
Allow all new players to start with the basic T1 learning skills at level 4.
This would allow them to train up through the skills they need at the start of the game, like working through frigates instead of just skipping them.
Most people advise newbis to get some learning done before they spend all their time learning to fly and fit the next best thing, this would remove this problem. It would also give them a goal to work towards, ie getting the 4.5mil ISK to buy the adv skill books.

Drave McClay
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:22:00 - [63]
 

hey lets make the game easier for newbies by taking away their skillpoints so they have to wait even longer (and pay more; thank god you pay monthly for EVE) to be remotely useful.

another money making scheme that they claim will help us but really just makes them look like idiots.

Gommel Nox
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:22:00 - [64]
 

so what exactly is to stop me from creating a bunch of prepackaged newbie alts with 800,000 skill points before the new expansion and selling them to newbies who would otherwise be starting out with 1/16 that amount for a nominal fee? Thanks, CCP. You're going to make me rich!

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:23:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Niara Takeva
Originally by: Hertford
So, new players have a better experience with only 50k skillpoints instead of 800k skillpoints?

For the first week (probably the most important period to catch peoples' interest) instead of actually having a selection of useful skills at useful levels, they'll be training the basic basic basic skills without much to do?

What are you smoking?


you dont know what happens if the newb chooses his career...so w8 for Part 2 of the Blog


The career is totally irrelevant, because they won't bother playing beyond the first week because they can't even fly a quarter-decent frigate. Part 2 won't help, because they'll need to spend two weeks to reach 750k skillpoints.

At the four week mark, roughly, they'll hit the 1.6m skillpoint marker. Probably the same amount of time needed right now for a new character to reach the same skillpoint marker. But for that four weeks, your skills are worse.

Where's the attraction in that? "Hey, we're making the NPE better by making you have less skills for the first four weeks".

Kallikratess
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:24:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Drave McClay
hey lets make the game easier for newbies by taking away their skillpoints so they have to wait even longer (and pay more; thank god you pay monthly for EVE) to be remotely useful.

another money making scheme that they claim will help us but really just makes them look like idiots.

Niara Takeva
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:26:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Goatface Man
Originally by: Niara Takeva
Originally by: Hertford
So, new players have a better experience with only 50k skillpoints instead of 800k skillpoints?

For the first week (probably the most important period to catch peoples' interest) instead of actually having a selection of useful skills at useful levels, they'll be training the basic basic basic skills without much to do?

What are you smoking?


you dont know what happens if the newb chooses his career...so w8 for Part 2 of the Blog


What part of that blog suggests that they will ever be "choosing a career"?

It specifically says "We have removed the School, Career and Specialization completely." As in, they will not be choosing a career. Not when they make the character, not at some unspecified future point. All it says is that there'll be 10 missions explaining the basics of industry, business and military PvE *******s.


if i remember right, they said that you could choose your career after the tutorial. And i think that they dont want to gimp the new "new players"
so i think that you will get some starting skills (or the books) directly or a greater bonus than the already mentioned 200% learning speed
nerfing new players to death compared to the old "new characters" is not very likely

Captain Mutiny
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:27:00 - [68]
 

I deal with new players all the time. Reducing the starting sp from 800k to 50k is a huge mistake.

With attribute redistribution, nothing you do in your character creation can permanently cripple you. Worst case scenario is you realise you don't want to be a gallente industrialist or whatever and you reroll. If you figure that out early, you don't really lose out since your new character starts with 800k of useful sp. If you figure it out late, it's probably worth keeping the character assuming it has learning trained up a bit and reassigning your attributes. Dropping from 800k sp to 50k is completely ridiculous, it just makes newbies have to wait a week before they can do anything, compared to at most a few hours currently.

Sertan Deras
Gallente
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:27:00 - [69]
 

The 50K skill points idea has to be one of the worst I've heard CCP come up with yet. Did you guys fire the part of the dev team that upped the SP given out to begin with? Maybe you've all forgotten why you made the change initially. Here's a hint: Characters starting with 50K SP are basically worthless in the grand scheme of EvE. It will take your average player months to be in a position to contribute at all to meaningful PvP.

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:28:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Drave McClay
hey lets make the game easier for newbies by taking away their skillpoints so they have to wait even longer (and pay more; thank god you pay monthly for EVE) to be remotely useful.

another money making scheme that they claim will help us but really just makes them look like idiots.


The idea is so that they make informed choices in the gameworld rather than abstract uninformed choices in a character creation menu. If CCP does it correctly the overall SP will be the exact same as it was before, over a long enough time period. Christ, it's always 0 to money grubbing scam in 60 seconds when CCP proposes something controversial.

mynnna
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:30:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: mynnna on 18/02/2009 16:38:41
Edited by: mynnna on 18/02/2009 16:36:42
Edited by: mynnna on 18/02/2009 16:35:13
Edited by: mynnna on 18/02/2009 16:33:08
Edited by: mynnna on 18/02/2009 16:31:06
This is silly. There are plenty of resources out there for new players to get the hang of the game and know what things mean and make good choices. Even with accelerated training, 50k is downright ridiculous. That would start you with, at best, frigate III, nav III, AB III and electronics III. How is that useful? Compare that to a typical caldari build; Achura -> Monk -> Military -> Soldier. This gives you:

Caldari Frigate III, Electronics IV, Electronics Upgrades I, Engineering II, Gunnery V, Iron Will II, Learning I, Mining I, Missile Bombardment II, Missile Launcher Operation IV, Rapid Launch III, Rockets IV, Science II, Sharpshooter I, Shield Compensation II, Shield Operation III, Shield Upgrades II, Small Hybrid Turret V, Spaceship Command IV, Spatial Awareness IV, and Standard Missiles III.

Or perhaps we could go with a common minmatar build; Brutor -> Slave Child -> Military -> Soldier, giving you:

Signature Analysis I, Energy Grid Upgrades II, Engineering II, Shield Operation III, Shield Upgrades III, Gunnery V, Rapid Firing IV, Sharpshooter III, Small Projectile Turret V, Mining I, Iron Will II, Learning I, Spatial Awareness IV, Missile Launcher Operation III, Rockets II, Standard Missiles III, Afterburner II, Evasive Maneuvering II, Navigation III, Warp Drive Operation II, Science I, Minmatar Frigate III, Spaceship Command III.

So how is 50k vs 800k good again? I'm just not seeing it. The only way this can possibly be "good" is if you can take and spend an additional 750k SP exactly how you want once you're in-game, instantly. If not...how is a newbie to earn the money to buy skills? Right now all sorts of combat oriented builds let you fit a frigate that's more than capable of taking on level 1 missions to earn some cash. That just isn't possible with frigate III, nav III, AB III and electronics III that you get with 50k skillpoints!

My main character, with learning and advanced learning skills at 4 and +3 implants takes around 15 days to train 750k skillpoints. Assuming accelerated training makes up for the lack of implants and learning skills, that means that a new player spends two weeks just getting to the point where they can be, right out of the box, now.

This is a terrible change. Don't make it. While in the long run (month or more) a character might be better off, what are they to do until they get to that "long run"? They'll be vastly less capable than they are out of the box right now. Sitting in a station spinning your weaponless frigate while you wait for skills to train is not fun.

Sertan Deras
Gallente
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:35:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Drave McClay
hey lets make the game easier for newbies by taking away their skillpoints so they have to wait even longer (and pay more; thank god you pay monthly for EVE) to be remotely useful.

another money making scheme that they claim will help us but really just makes them look like idiots.


The idea is so that they make informed choices in the gameworld rather than abstract uninformed choices in a character creation menu. If CCP does it correctly the overall SP will be the exact same as it was before, over a long enough time period. Christ, it's always 0 to money grubbing scam in 60 seconds when CCP proposes something controversial.


What? What you said makes no sense. "The overall SP will be the exact same as it was before, over a long enough time period". Well no kidding Dr. Einstein. Yes, over a long enough period, a newbie can indeed get back to 800K SP. Just like they can eventually get to 2M, and 5M, and 10M, and 20M....you know, over a long enough period of time.

Ancy Denaries
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:37:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
And you fail at humor! My point is that it's a skill that is irrelevant to a new player. The connection to sieging a pos is entirely on the name but not the skill, but I suppose you would fail to see that ;)
Dev wtfpooned! \o/

All in all, looks like the NPE is getting a BIG lift. I based my prior evaluation on the current Sisi build (and quite frankly, that sucked a bit), but it's starting to shape up. Now get the guys working on the intro movie to redo it to focus more on the empires and the backstory. It totally ignores those parts right now, which is a shame. New players NEED to know the backstory (at least the important bits) in order to immerse properly.

Illiya
GoonFleet
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:38:00 - [74]
 

Not to toot our own horn or anything, but GoonSwarm is one of, if not the, most newbie friendly organizations in the game. So please don't take these criticisms lightly, as every single one of us loves and adores our newbies and do just about anything we can to keep them playing.

Not being able to do anything but spin your ship around for the first 10 days is going to lose you more subscriptions than it keeps. 50k isn't enough to... do anything with. Who is going to want to play a game you have to wait a couple months to actually play it? All the while, still forking over x$ a month?

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:38:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Sertan Deras
What? What you said makes no sense. "The overall SP will be the exact same as it was before, over a long enough time period". Well no kidding Dr. Einstein. Yes, over a long enough period, a newbie can indeed get back to 800K SP. Just like they can eventually get to 2M, and 5M, and 10M, and 20M....you know, over a long enough period of time.

No, what he's saying is that you'd reach 1.6M SP after the same amount of time as with the old 800k system. Difference is, with the NPE a player can get there _EVEN FASTER_ by focusing on learning skills.

OMG, they boosted the n00bs!

Fastercart
Gallente
Ornery Cantankerous Curmudgeons
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:39:00 - [76]
 

I feel once a year is too infrequent. I was looking forward to having skill plans based on a 6 month schedule. But, having the ability at all is cool.

If you guys at CCP felt 6 months was too frequent, how about a compromise of 9 months? 9 months still long too my taste, but still.

I would still like to see it available every 6 months for older players. Or, CCP can give everyone the chance to respec twice for free when the ability first becomes available.

Ninja economist
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:40:00 - [77]
 

50k skill points and months of training to be even close to an old starter character is bad.

You have got to be kidding me.

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:41:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Sertan Deras
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Drave McClay
hey lets make the game easier for newbies by taking away their skillpoints so they have to wait even longer (and pay more; thank god you pay monthly for EVE) to be remotely useful.

another money making scheme that they claim will help us but really just makes them look like idiots.


The idea is so that they make informed choices in the gameworld rather than abstract uninformed choices in a character creation menu. If CCP does it correctly the overall SP will be the exact same as it was before, over a long enough time period. Christ, it's always 0 to money grubbing scam in 60 seconds when CCP proposes something controversial.


What? What you said makes no sense. "The overall SP will be the exact same as it was before, over a long enough time period". Well no kidding Dr. Einstein. Yes, over a long enough period, a newbie can indeed get back to 800K SP. Just like they can eventually get to 2M, and 5M, and 10M, and 20M....you know, over a long enough period of time.


That's not what I meant. What I meant was that a new player who started under the old system at the 3 month mark would have x amount of SP and a player starting under the new system would also have x SP at the same 3 month mark. If this standard was met it would at least be "fair". The intuitiveness of making the new player train all his "starting" skills over time, rather than a lump sum in the beginning though, that's debatable.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:41:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 18/02/2009 16:43:27
Gamer4liff said "The idea is so that they make informed choices in the gameworld rather than abstract uninformed choices in a character creation menu. If CCP does it correctly the overall SP will be the exact same as it was before, over a long enough time period."
But that will cause fewer players to make it to the x week period where they match the exact same SP as the old system. The first few weeks are much worse for new players with this NPE and the first few weeks are the most important as if you're not hooked into the game by then you're going quit. Fewer players well make it past the first few weeks as the game is now so boring with the new NPE.

Making the first few weeks more boring is not an enhancement for NPE. When I did the training mission one part wanted me to sit around for 30+mins waiting for a basic skill to train so it could show me how to fit a module. The old system would let me fit that module right away no sitting around bored. Asking new playres to wait 30mins is not good.

Baquack Obamailure
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:42:00 - [80]
 

Did you even test this with a single new player before coming up with this idea?

First, a "sandbox" is inherently more complex than a "rails" approach. Yes, you freed the newbies from the shackles of skillpoints, but now to get their skills they have to master a new interface (the market) and learn about school stations. They have to learn what skills they need (not irrelevant, even vets have to look up skill names in evemon because there are so many). Why would you think that the game would be less intimidating by giving them more uninformed choices?

Second, to be as useful as a current 800k character you have to train for 15 days. A trial is 14 days. Considering you aren't going to have much fun being able to do absolutely nothing, I suspect that they might want to quit at that point.

PLEASE reconsider this - it's possibly the worst concept you could have come up with.

Ungdall
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:44:00 - [81]
 

I've gotta say, I've never seen a company as energetic as CCP in their attempts to discourage new players. Is 50k SP CCP's brilliant plan to make rookie ships important? Because that's all they will be flying for quite a while. In doing this, they're going in the direct opposite direction of every step (nice steps, too) they've made in the last few years. CCP, while you're at it, how 'bout you increase the health and dps of the starter rats, because new players will learn faster the more they die.

I see what you're trying to do, and I applaud everything you've done in the last year or so. Fleet lag is 95% of what it was, nodes don't go down during DDs, you've made possessing space a little more worthwhile, and you've done a good job of stepping up and lowering the wall between you and us, the players. But new players want a bright and shiny piece of paper before them, covered in buttons and switches, not a white page with their name in the top and a photo-id stapled to it. Give new players some credit.

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:47:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Gamer4liff on 18/02/2009 16:48:01
Originally by: Pottsey
Gamer4liff said "The idea is so that they make informed choices in the gameworld rather than abstract uninformed choices in a character creation menu. If CCP does it correctly the overall SP will be the exact same as it was before, over a long enough time period."
But that will cause fewer players to make it to the x week period where they match the exact same SP as the old system. The first few weeks are much worse for new players with this NPE and the first few weeks are the most important as if you're not hooked into the game by then you're going quit. Fewer players well make it past the first few weeks as the game is now so boring with the new NPE.

Making the first few weeks more boring is not an enhancement for NPE. When I did the training mission one part wanted me to sit around for 30+mins waiting for a basic skill to train so it could show me how to fit a modules. The old system would let me fit that module right away no sitting around bored.



Yeah this is my main concern with this, if it does happen. Keeping interest in the game is not easy. Though I would argue that it wouldn't take "30 minutes" waiting for a basic skill to train, with the bonus it would probably take something like 15.

To my mind it's really a matter of how well they design the career-path missions. If one of those mission paths is a basic primer on PvP for example, it would be of use to new players wanting to go in that direction. It's really about how well they can acclimate new players to the game without the skill cushion. It'd be a damn hard thing, and I'm not fully convinced they could do it with only 50k starting SP. Even 200k would be more fair.

Blak'ten Blaky'all
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:47:00 - [83]
 

Removed. Navigator

Aida Ruiz
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:47:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
No, what he's saying is that you'd reach 1.6M SP after the same amount of time as with the old 800k system. Difference is, with the NPE a player can get there _EVEN FASTER_ by focusing on learning skills.



What are they going to be doing in the time (albeit reduced) that it takes to train learning skills if they start with 50k skillpoints? How are they going to afford the advanced learning skillbooks with only 50k skillpoints? Even ignoring all of that: if the newbie doesn't know what the hell they are doing when starting the game (which is what CCP is assuming and basing these changes on) what makes you think that they will even train learning or even useful skills at all with their double-speed training time?

88788
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:48:00 - [85]
 

Hi I am 88788, I am ordinary and balanced just like everyone else.

I have loads of friends who are the same as me, I am 88788.


Zastrow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:48:00 - [86]
 

50k skillpoints is awful and I have no idea what i'm going to tell my RL friends who i'm trying to recruit into this game.

maybe "hey yeah start your account NOW because you're going to be COMPLETELY WORTHLESS FOR WEEKS as you train basic skills"

attribute switching is great but that skill point nerf is DUMB
DUMB
DUMB
DUMB
DUMB
DUMB

Alexander Omega
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:53:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Alexander Omega on 18/02/2009 16:53:56
Originally by: Iraf Thaiberd
I get it, I really do.

New players have a large number of skills and that can be confusing and intimidating. The character creation system didn't really do anything at all to explain what the skills being chosen were, or how the attributes being chosen mattered. You're removing a lot of those skills new players were starting with from the pre-sets, hoping it will be less intimidating.

I get that. It's also completely wrong. You see the problem and instead of fixing what is broken, you're tearing down the whole thing and leaving new players with nothing.

50K is jack. 50K is nothing of substance in learning, ship use (even frigates), weapons, etc. You are USELESS in this game at 50K SP. Remember that? YOU GUYS (CCP) KNEW THAT! That's why you raised the starting SP to 800k. At 800k you could hop into a racial frigate and and go DO STUFF!

You're going the completely wrong direction here. What you SHOULD be doing is fixing the character creation experience so that it EXPLAINS what the new player is choosing and what the skills offered actually do in the game (instead of just the skill name which may or may not be relevant).

This is a huge mistake, and telling new players "ok here's your 1/16th of starting skill you would have gotten last year, you can enjoy training nothing but learning skills for at least a month at DOUBLE THE SPEED!" is so throughly an incorrect decision that I am left wondering if some of you have part-time jobs in your country's banking industry.


Was gonna quote and say THIS even before I noticed who was posting it, so seriously this.

Eve has more or less the steepest learning curve out of any MMO I have seen, what makes you think new players will be less intimidated if you give them NOTHING and then tell them basically NOTHING more than you currently do about what skills do. On top of that, now newbies will have to deal with having to grind up isk to buy skills that they might not even want because NOTHING gives them an idea if they will find it useful for their play style. Oh and grind up isk with what skills? Do you know hard it is to get isk as a newbie in empire even with 800k and a good build? Do you twits even play this game?

Illiya
GoonFleet
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:56:00 - [88]
 

This also might be more understandable if CCP's documentation about their own game wasn't a combination of horribly wrong, and nonexistent. Now newbies won't be able to do anything, as well as not know what the hell is going on. Cool

Amarr Holymight
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:07:00 - [89]
 

This sounds like a bad idea
Quote:
Just to name one skill that a certain path could get - Who needs Siege Warfare when you are fresh out of military school? Are you going to siege a POS in your Velator?
You are aware Siege warfare has nothing really to do with POS warfare, but I guess newbies won't know the difference if they even bother playing the game after this.

ventacon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 17:13:00 - [90]
 

I remember when I first started playing the game, I started with 90k skill points. I had to sit in a station and train skills for almost 2 weeks before I could do anything useful. Make things worse the first week I had to log in about every 20-30 minutes just to change skills. This turned me off from the game pretty much instantly, the only thing that saved it was the ghost training. I came back after 2 month break because Amarr Cruiser V finished and I felt I could actually do something.

When the skill points where buffed to 800k and people could actually start running Level 1 Missions without dying every 30 seconds I recommended the game to my friends. I had mentioned the game much earlier but I made a point of telling them how horrible it was first starting out. Few friends signed up for 14 day free trail and 7/12 people still have active subscriptions, the game hooked them right away when they could actually have fun right away.

Your killing the new player experience if you set them back to 50k skill points and give them double training time, that is horrible idea. How do you expect players to make money to afford the skill books? They will not be able to run Level 1 Missions, they will get frustrated and quit. Coming from Goonfleet isk has never been an issue, when I was a newbie on my 3rd day I had over 15m isk and every skill book needed to jump into the action. How many corporations and alliances actually do that for new players? What about the people who just randomly join the game and don't have a single friend who can help them?

Please leave the 800k starter skill points alone, your going to kill the new player experience. If you want to help guide new players then document the character creation process so people can read up on things before starting out. Take a look at the Goonfleet Wiki on character creations, that part is public. We even have a section on how to make a decent looking character portrait or a really embarrassing portrait. Instead of spending the time to nerf the starting points, spend the time to document the character creation process and then document a few different jobs people might want to train into and help guide them to the skills they need.


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