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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:17:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 18/02/2009 15:26:01
CCP Fear said "And you fail at humor! My point is that it's a skill that is irrelevant to a new player."
No its not, the point of the game is to work in groups and that skills gives you a reason to work in a group. All those years back when I was a new player it was one of the first skills I took to lvl 5. If two or more friends start together its useful.

The Devs seem to be getting more and more detached from the player base recently which is very bad. The new NPE does not feel very good at all. The new intro means the new players don't have the background for the game. The new character creation removes some background and differences between the races. The NPE once in game feels cheaply done with poorly drawn white boxes and unexciting training missions. The NPE has made things far to generic and generic for new players is boring. The removable of the old new player sounds further makes the NPE worse.

For many people the NPE has taken a massive step backwards not improved based on what's currently on the test server. You simplified things so far it's not interesting and that's not what a new player needs. The NPE should not be boring and generic it should make players want to come back.

Dracira Dracc
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:20:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
No I didn't assign 3 points to charisma because that sounded cool. I've been playing tabletop RPGs for decades, so I already knew how useless that attribute was. ^_^


a simple T3 Skill or two with charisma as main... and all changes ;-)

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:20:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 18/02/2009 15:23:12
Originally by: CCP Fear


And you fail at humor! My point is that it's a skill that is irrelevant to a new player. The connection to sieging a pos is entirely on the name but not the skill, but I suppose you would fail to see that ;)


Except that it might not be especially if your new player likes to fly in a gang with other new players, its another couple % more shield when they go and shoot people.

Edit: And even if it were, those skill points could have been transferred to something that we know everyone will use, like engineering, or electronics, or capacitor skills, etc etc. While the argument against specific skills can be valid, the argument against skills in general fails because there are skills that you can nearly guarantee that newer players will need or want to train.[E.G. Learning skills]

Also, would you care to comment on this?

Asharis Fyn
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:24:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Garia666
Edited by: Garia666 on 18/02/2009 15:08:37

I also dont like being to be able to train all ships from all races.




Wait, what? Did I miss something here?

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:28:00 - [35]
 

Being able to allocate attribute points away from Charisma is all fine and dandy... but I'd rather see at least one or two reasonably relevant skills based on Charisma so there's an actual benefit in having it.

More than once in your lifetime, I mean.

Niara Takeva
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:28:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: CCP Fear


And you fail at humor! My point is that it's a skill that is irrelevant to a new player. The connection to sieging a pos is entirely on the name but not the skill, but I suppose you would fail to see that ;)


Except that it might not be especially if your new player likes to fly in a gang with other new players, its another couple % more shield when they go and shoot people.

Also, would you care to comment on this?



I dont think that new players know the mechanics of fleet-boostering, and i dont think that new players are going to be a fleet-booster, because every1 else who wants to booster will have the other skills at 4 at least

to your linked post:
i think that the NPE will help people to get in the game
they got the essential skills to try the frigs
In their starter missions they mine, hunt a few NPCs and produce something. I mean, its much better to let the player decide after that point.

But anyway, i kinda agree with you about the learning skills, i dont like em much and think that these skills hinder the "flow" of SP Acquisition for a new player...(sometimes even for the older players, because 5 basic learning/4 adv learnings are only important if you are going to plan for more than a year)

Cesar Malari
Dark-Rising
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:31:00 - [37]
 

Quote:
Once a year, you - and everyone else - can take 14 attribute points, and re-arrange them within reason. Attributes can be set at values anywhere from 5 to 15. This means, that every year, you can take all your spare charisma points and put them into perception if you so please. Or the other way around.

So, new values can be 5-15? What about characters who have a starting value for one of those skills outside of the range? Will they be forced into that range on patch day, or the first time they respec?

Though I can't get in-game at the moment, based on a file I found once with the starter skills and attributes, a Caldari Achura Stargazer going for a balanced, no-charisma attribute spread (3 will, 1 int, 1 perc) would end up with cha at 3 to start with (and int/perc/mem/will at 9). How would this change affect this character?

Nur AlHuda
Amarr
Callide Vulpis
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:37:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 18/02/2009 15:37:35
I think this new changes suck hard.

1. With 800K character it could be combat ready in group in one or two days and for mining imidiately. Now the people will log in only to learn skills for one or two days couse their activity will have nearly no effect.

2. Most corporations have no trials policy that means most of the newbies never feeled as a part of group. If there was some benefit at least for the corp it was his skill point boost.

3. The devblog statement about school and skills is not true. First you had all schools described there also with proper skills. By removing this you only make difference between fiction and reality bigger. You know some people are roleplayers, some log in to play game set in fictional world but for sure it should not be made as login for first person shooter.

This kind of orientation seems to be precisely made to attract younger players under age of 15 or console players who have no pc. I just await the moment when ship setups will be modified by a slide bar easy/normal/hardcore/ or characters will have mana pool to cast electro techno magic ****ty spells on stations. Also when you want to rip the old good eve experience away you could also remove targeting so people just move with mouse and press button to shoot and after it some weirdo sound would play like SCRAMBLER MASTER...

This would appeal 5-10 years old much more.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:39:00 - [39]
 

Wouldn't it be good to give 50k "useful SP" and hand out all learning skills (crap stuff to train) to cut off that useless part?

It would be a great improvement to starting eve, you can't imagine how disappointed people are to see that they learn very slow and have to learn skills to get to everyone's level... Talk about a slow start...

Simpler choices is just win, because I this char is in fact my 4th character, I made several mistakes :
-looks => made crap looking char (ok, it's my fault)
-attributes => recreated with proper perception level (the 2 attributes moves is great idea)
-holy crap, all those basic skills I don't have => recreated to see if I could get more different skills at start, ending with I think 30k sp at start, but more base skills.

I'm at work and can't yet go create a char to see, but I hope that the characters will find in that 50k SP the skills needed to fly a frigate of their race and enough variety in that list of modules.

Starting gallente, I would need to use hybrids, 3 drones (just drone 3, nothing more), enough mechanic for repairing and resistance mods, AB, cap recharger, sensor dampener (or the maulus would be useless), minimal levels to use rockets and light missiles (for the tristan).
This way people could try out different combat styles, which looks important to me.
It's not important that they are good in it (starting gallente char with 2 drone lvl 5 skills? drop it, frigates can't take advantage of that), just that you can grab modules and fit a ship to try, getting the skills, training several hours just to try out the basic frigs didn't make too much sense.

I hope there could be better rookie information about the universities event agents that teach you loads of stuff in their 10 parts storyline mission, as they hand you many very useful stuff (frigs!) and explain what you could fit in them, it's a very good start there. Rookies should get a mail about this one they get out of university basic mission/out of tutorial.

Hertford
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:39:00 - [40]
 

So, new players have a better experience with only 50k skillpoints instead of 800k skillpoints?

For the first week (probably the most important period to catch peoples' interest) instead of actually having a selection of useful skills at useful levels, they'll be training the basic basic basic skills without much to do?

What are you smoking?

Aida Ruiz
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:44:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Aida Ruiz on 18/02/2009 15:46:02
Why the hell would you strip starting characters of almost a million skillpoints? If anything new players should be getting more SP. I don't know where you get the idea that this improves the new player experience, I mean we have beta players nearing 100m skillpoints by now.

If Siege Warfare is not useful to newbies, then change where you allocate the skillpoints. There are a lot of universally beneficial skills regardless of what the player wants to do. Fitting skills, navigation skills, basic e-war/gunnery support, etc, etc. If you are so ignorant that you don't know what skills newbies need to enjoy the game, ask the player base.

If you are worried about people not being able to mold their characters and choose their own destinies then why are you getting rid of ancestries and player backgrounds? Why even have different bloodlines if the only difference between them is going to be cosmetic?

How about you just do a better job of balancing the races and document your game better for newbies so they don't make mistakes in character creation. Not to toot our horn too much, but Goonfleet doesn't have a problem with newbies starting with 18 charisma or all marketing skills because our vets do a good job picking up your slack. Or God forbid actually do something with the charisma attribute that the devs have repeatedly acknowledged is worthless yet have done nothing about. Or just scrap it, who cares.

Swamp Ziro
Ultimate Betrayal.
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:45:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 18/02/2009 15:47:26
CCP sorry but you just suck ****.


This is a moneygrab. Pure and simple


No amount of accelerated skill training is going to make up for 750k lost skillpoints, and you just want more subscriptions out of people before they quit.


You don't give a **** about newbies, stop pretending you do. If you did, you'd give em the learning skills. You just realized your playerbase is set in stone and just want to milk the random mmo-browser for more subscriptions

Niara Takeva
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:46:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Hertford
So, new players have a better experience with only 50k skillpoints instead of 800k skillpoints?

For the first week (probably the most important period to catch peoples' interest) instead of actually having a selection of useful skills at useful levels, they'll be training the basic basic basic skills without much to do?

What are you smoking?


you dont know what happens if the newb chooses his career...so w8 for Part 2 of the Blog

Valrandir
Gallente
Distant Thunder
Perihelion Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:48:00 - [44]
 

Changing attributes once every year is fine.
Six months was to short.

Swamp Ziro
Ultimate Betrayal.
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:48:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Niara Takeva
Originally by: Hertford
So, new players have a better experience with only 50k skillpoints instead of 800k skillpoints?

For the first week (probably the most important period to catch peoples' interest) instead of actually having a selection of useful skills at useful levels, they'll be training the basic basic basic skills without much to do?

What are you smoking?


you dont know what happens if the newb chooses his career...so w8 for Part 2 of the Blog



No let's wait before it's implemented and 2 months have gone by instead

Kyra Revan
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:49:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Kyra Revan on 18/02/2009 16:03:07
I have been thinking, why not make a bonus to bounty, a gain of 5% for each point in charisma above 22, so at 23 you gain 5% and 33 you gain 50% extra isk from rats.
This would give you a choise of skills versus isk.
Just an idea to boost charisma


Cyberman Mastermind
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:51:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
And you fail at humor! My point is that it's a skill that is irrelevant to a new player. The connection to sieging a pos is entirely on the name but not the skill, but I suppose you would fail to see that ;)

Humor is always subjective, though I FAIL to see how a new player, not knowing anything about the game mechanics is supposed to realize that you were making a crude pun about how mis-named the skill is.

If you want to help new players, I suggest renaming skills with misleading names, not making jokes about them.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:51:00 - [48]
 

The one year cooldown for attribute respec is a step into the right direction, it is better than the 6 month respec. However, maybe consider also a further limiting of the amount of attribute points respected.

80k skillpoints for starter characters?

A new player won't be able to do anything but first has to learn tons of skills. That is boring boring, didn't you increase the starting skillpoints up to 800k just for that reason? That a character can hop into a ship and do some fun stuff from begin on?

The new player then has to grin learning skills first (3 weeks wasted at least) and then has to wait another month before he has the same skills as a new starting player now. 2 month wasted.

That is a bad decision.

And sorry to say, but whoever cannot cope with the current new player experience won't come far into Eve anyway and will quit very soon. Twisted Evil


What can you do instead? The reduction of skillpoints a new player recieves is good, 800k were to many. But 80k are not enough.

Let the players decide about their race and a starting-skillset. Name these starting-skillsets maybe fighter, engineer, trader/miner.

1) race

Describe the different races, their style of offensive (primary weapons) and defensive (armor/ shield tank) skills. Give info about the background stories.


2) profession: fighter, engineer, trader/miner

Let the player chose for some sort of profession, make it very clear that this is only a first choice and that there are no limits and drawback on skilling other stuff in game in the future regarding this choice.

If the new player chooses the fighter starter-skillset, the give him skills accordingly to his race:

a) fighter amarr, lasers as primary weapon skillset, armor tanking
b) fighter caldari, missiles as primary weapon skillset, shield tanking
c) fighter gallente, drones as primary weapon skillset, armor tanking
d) fighter minmatar, projectiles as primary weapon skillset, shield tanking


I can't see how this could confuse any intelligent person, we are not talking about 4-year old persons (though the can be quite intelligent also!) but people who can read and write and understand stuff, right?

So: Give new players a starter skillset of 400k+ skillpoints, give them SIMPLE decisions, no schools and such, just a race and a starter-skillset(fighters, engineer or trader/miner).

And tell the new players all the time that this is just a starting skillset and that they can aquire every skill they want and use it with the same efficiency regardless of their starting-skillset.


In every MMO you have to make choices in the beginning, people are not that stupid that they cannot chose, really. The reduction of complexity (removal of bloodlines, ancestry, schools etc.) is not bad. But I think you went a step to far and removed to much complexity and therefore you removed also some useful choices and made it harder for the new player.

Delana Locke
Posted - 2009.02.18 15:58:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Barbicane
(Starting to train all the charisma heavy skills on my skill plan so I can get rid of those Charisma attribute points once and for all soon enough)


Charisma, the much maligned attribute... Barbicane's idea sounds like a good one to me. For a combat character, the leadership skills would be the primary skills to knock out with higher Charisma and then drop that attribute all the way down to the minimum.

Originally by: UVPhoenix2
Will any of the new skills place a little more emphasis on the Charisma attribute? I'm curious because it seems that most players plan to just rid themselves of as many Charisma points as possible due to its under use in the majority of the skill categories.


I wondered this as well... since even CCP's employees seem to think it's funny that the Charisma skill is useless:

Originally by: CCP Fear
A new player has no idea what the attributes means and, as many of you probably have done, assigned 3 to charisma because it must be awesome!


The fact that CCP Fear is joking about the uselessness of Charisma should send up red flags for the game designers.

Duckbar
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:02:00 - [50]
 

Removing newbie skills is not going to help this. Adding in the reallocation of base attributes should help substantially with players who don't know what the heck is going on, but removing their skills themselves is a horrible idea.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:03:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: teji on 18/02/2009 16:08:27
You manage to completely disappoint and astound me. After the skill queue and the lag fixes and the actually new exciting content you had me thinking you were competent. Now we see :ccp: at work. What a terrible nerf. Go fill your slots with characters now. Too bad for anyone actually new to the game.

Quote:
But we will be reducing the 800K quite substantially.

Somewhere deep in CCP's asylum:
CCP1: What can we give to new players to help them become useful earlier?
CCP2: Less skillpoints!
CCP1: BRILLIANT!
CCP2: THANK YOU!

You would need skills to train 1000% faster to even contemplate this and not to mention where are actual noobs going to get the isk to afford these skillbooks. What a dumb idea.

edit: I was hoping for a complete removal of the learning tree with attributes added. Though I guess we don't actually want to fix the real issues.

Kelduum Revaan
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:04:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Kelduum Revaan on 18/02/2009 16:07:59
If I recall correctly, the starter systems/stations you start in were down to your choices in the character creation section, and that then also fit with a specific NPC corp.

As this no longer relevant, is it still chosen in the character creation, or are new player randomly assigned to one of the 3 starter corps, or is it race based now..?

Can anyone who has tried the new NPE (assuming its live now as there was an update on SiSi last night) post here and describe it?

Not-so-Ninja Edit: teji, how about Eve University? Although affording the base skill books could be a problem if their costs aren't rather drastically cut.

Iraf Thaiberd
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:04:00 - [53]
 

I get it, I really do.

New players have a large number of skills and that can be confusing and intimidating. The character creation system didn't really do anything at all to explain what the skills being chosen were, or how the attributes being chosen mattered. You're removing a lot of those skills new players were starting with from the pre-sets, hoping it will be less intimidating.

I get that. It's also completely wrong. You see the problem and instead of fixing what is broken, you're tearing down the whole thing and leaving new players with nothing.

50K is jack. 50K is nothing of substance in learning, ship use (even frigates), weapons, etc. You are USELESS in this game at 50K SP. Remember that? YOU GUYS (CCP) KNEW THAT! That's why you raised the starting SP to 800k. At 800k you could hop into a racial frigate and and go DO STUFF!

You're going the completely wrong direction here. What you SHOULD be doing is fixing the character creation experience so that it EXPLAINS what the new player is choosing and what the skills offered actually do in the game (instead of just the skill name which may or may not be relevant).

This is a huge mistake, and telling new players "ok here's your 1/16th of starting skill you would have gotten last year, you can enjoy training nothing but learning skills for at least a month at DOUBLE THE SPEED!" is so throughly an incorrect decision that I am left wondering if some of you have part-time jobs in your country's banking industry.

Salvo Brunel
Outbreak.
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:07:00 - [54]
 

Limiting respecing to once every year sounds good to me. It allows people to make changes / correct errors but is sufficiently limited to mitigate too much gaming. (There goes my 6 month perception / willpower only plan.)
I recall someone saying that new players would start with much lower skills but gain SP's at an accelerated rate for several months. I can't find mention of it in the blog, am I missing something? If this is implemented I support the new system. For me half the fun is anticipating the new skills, rather than having them. Haven't you all thought:
Cool, in 3 weeks I'll be able to fly the XXXX, then I'm I'll really be able to pwn everyone.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:09:00 - [55]
 

hey guys can you actually tell noobs how to look for agents... when i was running my training corp they never new how to do this and since most of eve chooses to play the single player part of even should they be taught this


oooh and weeks you are awear there are just over 2 weeks left

weeks doesnt come into it soon ... hurry up !!!!eleventyone!!11111!!!

Goatface Man
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:09:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Niara Takeva
Originally by: Hertford
So, new players have a better experience with only 50k skillpoints instead of 800k skillpoints?

For the first week (probably the most important period to catch peoples' interest) instead of actually having a selection of useful skills at useful levels, they'll be training the basic basic basic skills without much to do?

What are you smoking?


you dont know what happens if the newb chooses his career...so w8 for Part 2 of the Blog


What part of that blog suggests that they will ever be "choosing a career"?

It specifically says "We have removed the School, Career and Specialization completely." As in, they will not be choosing a career. Not when they make the character, not at some unspecified future point. All it says is that there'll be 10 missions explaining the basics of industry, business and military PvE *******s.

Ilarra
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:10:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Ilarra on 18/02/2009 16:10:39
So you can't lower attributes below 5? So basically, anyone who currently has an achura character with the 3 base charisma will forever after have an advantage over other characters who have a minimum of 5 points stuck in a mostly worthless stat (unless you're planning on going hardcore leadership, I guess).

Edit: Also, lowering the starting skill points for new players is dumb. If you want to make their early lives easier, keep everything else the same but credit them the learning skills. Seriously, the whole learning skill tree is one of the dumbest design decisions I've ever seen in a game.

Amusing Name
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:10:00 - [58]
 

This screws over newbies more than it helps.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:11:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Delana Locke
Originally by: Barbicane
(Starting to train all the charisma heavy skills on my skill plan so I can get rid of those Charisma attribute points once and for all soon enough)


Charisma, the much maligned attribute... Barbicane's idea sounds like a good one to me. For a combat character, the leadership skills would be the primary skills to knock out with higher Charisma and then drop that attribute all the way down to the minimum.

Originally by: UVPhoenix2
Will any of the new skills place a little more emphasis on the Charisma attribute? I'm curious because it seems that most players plan to just rid themselves of as many Charisma points as possible due to its under use in the majority of the skill categories.


I wondered this as well... since even CCP's employees seem to think it's funny that the Charisma skill is useless:

Originally by: CCP Fear
A new player has no idea what the attributes means and, as many of you probably have done, assigned 3 to charisma because it must be awesome!


The fact that CCP Fear is joking about the uselessness of Charisma should send up red flags for the game designers.


This is exactly what I was thinking. It seems Charisma is on the way to becoming absolete, or at the very least, an attribute for a backburner low-end alt to have. Not very promising. I would have preferred they fixed it so it became useful.


Rafus
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Aeternus.
Posted - 2009.02.18 16:13:00 - [60]
 

Quote:
In our newest build, a player gets about 50K skill points from character creation. This might change, depending on testing. But we will be reducing the 800K quite substantially.


How can you possibly believe this is a good idea? Seriously. This is tremendously idiotic even for you CCP.


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