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Tiger's Spirit
Posted - 2009.03.02 16:48:00 - [451]

Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 02/03/2009 16:59:58
Originally by: Ig Neus

For the rest of your post. Why exactly do you start with 8/8/8/8/7 when you can set your attributes to whatever between 5 and 15? I think many guys will actually play with 15 basic perception but even the ones like me who would pick a more balanced approach will probably start with 10 Perception (if they are Fighters). So 10+8 = 18 + 8% = 19,44 (learning 4). This means that a +4 Implant is enough.

Fail,fail,fail again.

You tried the Apocrypha ? I think you not.
All new players will starting with 8/8/8/8/7 stat, so dont try it 10+8 or any bull**** idea.
What do you think , why you will starting 50k points ? Because you will not to get the plus Spatial Awareness lvl4 or other skillpoints in learning skill group.
You will try to say now..... "Hey you can change the starting attrib" Yes you can, but if you distribute the points to learning attrib 12mem/12int you can't change 1 year, and the 5will/5per will too low and you will lost too mutch time when you reach the 1.6m skillpoints and the learning goes to normal learning time. And more something, you need to learning first those attribs, because you can distribute more points then basic numbers.

Originally by: Ig Neus

Anyway, since this gets boring, suppose there are no learning skills and that all attributes are balanced. Starting with 800k and training 800k skill points (to a total of 1.6M) at normal speed is exactly the same as starting with 0 skill points and training to 1.6M at double speed. I hope you understand that.

I'm not understand, because in old times you may have started even with fourteen attribs and the others there were not less from this, but now when you want to starting with 14 you need to reduce something else instead.
You need learning those missing attrib, which you got in old times. All character need learning 800k point , in new era (1.6m/2 equal with old 800k, but you need train more attrib modification skills in apocrypha, because you will starting with lower attrib)
More learning with lower attrib= more learning time.

All character will starting with 8/8/8/8/7 base attrib. Specifications like Military,Special forces,Soldier or others comes to an end then.

And something else, Achura now can reach with maximum attrib 26/26/26/26/ but now you will lost 2 attrib points (minimum charisma will be 5 and not 3) so you will reach maximum attribs 25/25/26/26 mem/int/per/will.

Ig Neus
Posted - 2009.03.02 18:25:00 - [452]

I did not try the test server indeed. I did read posts on it however. If my understanding is correct, new players get to change their attributes one extra time. That is in place, apparentely, to let one customize his character.

You do not have to get perception to 14 by the way. 10 Perception, 10 Int, 7 Memory, 7 Willpower, 5 Charisma sounds viable for a Fighter character AND allows for that 23 Perception (and Intelligence), does it not?

Of course somebody who knows exactly what he wants to train for (mainly someone who starts an alt) could use those 2 respecs that new chars get to get to their goal really quickly but I do not want to get into that discussion.

Missing Spatial Awareness level 4 is a problem indeed but still it is nothing, in the long run. A character created with the new system will get to 4/4 learnings faster than one created now, no matter how you look to it. That, combined with the fact that he has double training speed until that point, means that he will get to those 1.6M skillpoints sooner. It is that simple. The total ammount of attributes you have is the same.

Still you are right about one thing. Caldari/Achura is nerfed. I am good with this, having a bloodline that is simply better than the rest (since Charisma is useless for most players) is unfair and should change.

Tiger's Spirit
Posted - 2009.03.02 20:21:00 - [453]

Originally by: Ig Neus
I did not try the test server indeed. I did read posts on it however. If my understanding is correct, new players get to change their attributes one extra time. That is in place, apparentely, to let one customize his character.

I tried and the my new character got 1 year counter.

Tiger's Spirit
Posted - 2009.03.04 06:09:00 - [454]

Originally by: Ig Neus
I did not try the test server indeed. ......

You do not have to get perception to 14 by the way. 10 Perception, 10 Int, 7 Memory, 7 Willpower, 5 Charisma sounds viable for a Fighter character AND allows for that 23 Perception (and Intelligence), does it not?

Hey man i can starting with now :

13 Perc 9 Int 9 Mem 10 Will
Better then your, it's not ?

Plus skills now (Soldier)

Gunnery 5
Small Hybrid 5
Spaceship command 4
Missile launcher operation 4
Rocket 4
Spatial Awareness 4
Electronics 4
Rapid launch 3
Standard Missiles 3
Shield operations 3

and more....

Pookie McPook
Posted - 2009.03.06 12:54:00 - [455]

Is it just me or this like reading a thread by Yoda?
Kudos to Tiger though for posting in a foreign language, but it did make me smile at times.

Kalib Stark
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.03.08 22:17:00 - [456]

will nubs get half priced skills too?

For a well funded alt, learning skills and implants are a given, but new players will have a hard time raising the 4.5 bill per advanced learning skill in time to train it to best effect, if at all. most of us spend more than that on ammo in a day, but that's weeks worth mining in a frig with T1 mining lasers, or running lvl 1 missions. The nub training missions better pay allot better, or hand out learning skill books or most new players, even if they know they should be training learning skills, will be left out in the cold from lack of funds unless they buy it from isk sellers. Hell, even selling GTC's takes [some] market skills and player know how to not get scammed.

Cyprus Black
Posted - 2009.03.10 18:09:00 - [457]

Regarding this 94% newbie nerf, I would just like to get in a preemptive "I told you so" before it blows up in CCPs face.

Kiri Komorri
Aurelius Federation
Apotheosis of Virtue
Posted - 2009.03.10 21:46:00 - [458]

I created my character one week ago (maybe two). Do I have 2 attribute respec or only 1 ?

It changes a lot of things.

(well, I've got the 800 000 skill points and the +100% so I'm happy o// )

Brett Deadbones
Posted - 2009.03.11 12:10:00 - [459]

Damn cant understand ppl moaning about learning skills, u dont have to learn these..U can start off right away with the skills u want to train.. Just some ppl think it's more wise to train learning first..It may take some time, but it's worth it in the end.

I'd say they ok the way they are now!Very Happy

Posted - 2009.03.13 04:17:00 - [460]

After reading every post here---I started a new character from scratch, following the path laid out by the Devs (tutorials, missions, etc.).

As background, I've been playing Eve for a while and have done just about every career angle (except mercenary and pirating). I use specialized alts for mining, hauling, capital ships, snipers, cyno's, etc. (and I use multiple accounts)

I see what the devs were trying to introduce here. Frankly, despite my WTF on 50K of SP... now I understand a little better having gone through it. It actually works fairly well.

@goons -- who want their paying website customers to jump into the swarm immediately. Go actually take a look the newbie path. The tutorials and missions are setup so if a person picks the combat/pvp agent after basic training he gets trained on the basic mechanics of pvp in eve... optimal range, falloff, etc. It's not forcing them to do PvE missions--it's using the missions to train the pilot how to fight using the rats as training dummies. At the same time, it's consistently rewarding the pilot with new ships and modules, and then training them in the basics of using them effectively. Very elegant.

a few other points---

Eve is not going to turn off new players in the first couple of days, but problems will continue with respect to retention in the first few months despite these changes.

To that end, I agree with the "set everyone's learning skill tree to V and then hide it" recommendation.

I will go a step more and say do the same thing to Engineering V, Electronics V, and Navigation V.

If it's a skill everyone must train (regardless of path) to be effective, what's the point in the skill in the first place? I get it when everyone in Eve was flying around in frigates and cruisers at launch. Now it's just a nuisance, both in terms of time and the player's psychology. Skills should promote uniqueness and specialization... not feel like a wall of work.

Lastly, CCP has the right idea with 2x SP/hour modification. It needs a much longer duration. If a new player is willing to stick it out, you need to shave 2-1/2 to 3 years off their skill training time to get them nearer in capability to the more seasoned players who have been here since 2004-2006. As it stands, new players figure out quickly that they never have any hope of catching up--both in terms of economics and combat skills. They will always be dominated. That needs a fix.

The yin for that yang? Give players the ability to train two characters at the same time when they reach a certain high SP benchmark... about where someone would be who started playing in 2006. Three characters training at the same time at about the 2004-2005 level.

I recommend anyone who has significant heartburn over this, spend the time to actually test it for yourself. If your like me, it will not sell you on it completely, but will provide some better insights.

My 0.02 isk.

Han LaoTsu
Posted - 2009.03.15 20:59:00 - [461]

The Caldari/Achura min charisma (and the Amarr bloodline that could do that too) was a bit cheesy-as an achura I will admit that. HOWEVER, the answer to the problem was not nerfing character creation to make 5 the lowest any attribute can be set too. What CCP has done is nerf all new characters training time; all new characters will be forced to have 2 extra points in a nearly worthless attribute. What should have been done is to make charisma usefull. Maybe there is a plan for that in the future but it should have been done first.

Anemonae Ambrosia
Disgruntled Pilots Syndicate
Posted - 2009.03.16 02:16:00 - [462]

I hate you CCP why couldn't you of done this crap 6 months ago when i started to play EVE? I actually had to sit around and jack off while i trained learning skills for months. I hate you I quit who wants my stuff?

Merc Leon
Posted - 2009.04.04 13:13:00 - [463]

Originally by: CCP Fear
So... does everybody hate the learning skills?

Sorcha Indama
Posted - 2009.04.07 22:29:00 - [464]

Originally by: Anemonae Ambrosia
I hate you CCP why couldn't you of done this crap 6 months ago when i started to play EVE? I actually had to sit around and jack off while i trained learning skills for months. I hate you I quit who wants my stuff?
What the heck are you complaining about? I started with NO learning skills. I had to train almost everything. NO skills started at level 5, unlike the old system where you got 2 level 5 skills.

AND I did not get to choose my starting school!!! THAT part sucks, I'm outta here. Who want's MY stuff?

The Motley Crew Reborn
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2009.04.08 01:21:00 - [465]

i think CCP should have reduced the tier 2 learning skills to rank 2 instead of rank 3.... 1. it would let players get to full training power quicker thus learning other skills a lil quicker so they dont get bored of eve while they do the minimum 6 months solid tanking/gunnery/ewar training time to have a hope at pvp
2. it would make it worth while training the tier 2 to lvl 5

Celia Therone
Posted - 2009.04.08 02:20:00 - [466]

I just started a new character and went through the tutorial and the three ten mission learning arcs.

I noticed that at the end of the first tutorial it expected me to have finished training the first skill that it gave me during the tutorial and I had almost ten minutes left to finish training it. I don't remember the skill, probably repair systems but possibly mechanic. I would artificially boost the learning time for the first level of this skill.

During the ten mission arcs I repeatedly (4 times?) got skill books that I'd already been given (afterburner, for example). This is needlessly confusing for newbies. I'd put in a check that gives the player additional isk instead of the book if they already have the skill trained.

I was given the Salvager book, but it requires the Survey skill pre-equisite which it doesn't give you. That's just strange. I'd recommend giving players the survey skill book too.

I was given the Hacking book, but that requires Electronic Upgrades 5 and Science 5. And you can't hack things unless you can scan down the sites so you need astrometrics too... This seems like a huge red herring for new players as it takes way too long to train these skills. I'd recommend not giving the players this book.

There were several industry and social skills that the tutorials gave to you but needed industry 3 and social 2 as pre-requisites. I'd recommend reducing the requirements to industry 1 and social 1 to give new players a smoother learning path.

Saverick Lenvar
Posted - 2009.04.12 22:53:00 - [467]

Edited by: Saverick Lenvar on 12/04/2009 22:57:15
Originally by: CCP Fear
So... does everybody hate the learning skills?

Nobody Inherently hates the learning skills and the long term benefit they provide, What they hate is the down time(almost 2 months)of character advancement that has no effect on the play experience of the players. A large part of the fun of RPG's (and MMO's by extension)is character advancement, while players train learning skills that advancement is basically paused in exchange for an accelerated rate upon completion. In order to maximize investment these skills must be taken as early as possible, which interferes with the new player experience.

The New player experience is a lot like this post on the forums, the longer it takes to get to it, the less likely you are to get to it. In this post the more pages of posts you have to click through (16 atm) the more likely you are going to give up before seeing it. In the NPE the longer you have to wait to advance your skills (due to Learning Skills) the more likely you are to give up.

Since a player will look for the most effective path to advance their character, the first thing the player will be recommended to do is take the learning skills early, especially if they can take them at an advanced rate that will be unavailable later on. The reason this is a problem is because the new player either on a trial or first time subscription is now investing time into the game disproportionate to the fun and character advancement they are getting out of the game. This problem is unique to Eve Online because of Eve’s skill advancement system being time based rather than play based. Players cannot invest play time to improve their characters in Eve so a player acquiring learning skills when they have no other skills to utilize at this point is playing “Wait: the Game.” In the previous system when the players started with around 800k rather than 50k sp mitigated the problem.

The quicker and longer a new player is having “Fun” in Eve the more likely there are to renew/create their subscription. So the high SP player start was a good thing, but so is the advanced learning rate for new players. Personally I would keep them both, but give veteran players the same speed increase boost for the same amount of XP, that way nobody can complain.

Originally by: CCP Fear
But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic? Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc. What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?

As far as eliminating learning skills, I think this is a poor idea. Eve is an investment based game and these skills work very well towards long term player retention as evidence by their need. However under no circumstances can these learning skills interfere with the new player experience. To Mediate a solution I recommend a % of player SP trained to go to these learning skills, with the first tier learning skills only being able to be learned in this manner and the advanced learning skills being learned the traditional way. This would prevent learning skills from interfering with the new player experience, remove the downtime, and keep learning skills as an optional investment.

(An example follows below)

Saverick Lenvar
Posted - 2009.04.12 22:55:00 - [468]

Edited by: Saverick Lenvar on 12/04/2009 22:58:31
Originally by: Saverick Lenvar
(An example follows below)

IE a player trains their Spaceship Command from level 0 to level 5 Resulting in a 256,000 SP Gain the abilities in this are Primary Perception, Secondary Willpower. The player then gains 1-10% of this as SP gain towards the related learning skills, for example sake lets say 1% and of that 60% is a gain to the primary attribute, while 40% is gained to the secondary attribute.

Player trains spaceship command to 5 256,000sp
1% of 256,000sp is 2,5600 sp which is then split into primary and secondary
60% 1536 SP goes to Perception ( 1536 SP added to Spatial Awareness)
40% 1024 SP goes to willpower (1024 SP added to Iron Will)

New players advance learning skills without interfering with the new player experience and learning skills are kept as an investment based advancement for more advanced player. Hope this was helpful for you and the other Devs CCP Fear.

I myself have quit eve because of the learning skills downtime, I only recently picked the game up again about a year later.

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