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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.20 00:09:00 - [331]
 

Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 20/02/2009 00:10:16
Originally by: Shinma Apollo
I can't think of one person who has ever joined eve and been excited to do learning skills. I didn't even properly train mine for a good few months, and I'd be quite happy with them being done away. To the new guys I run into, I stress you MUST train learning skills, but what you can do is take two trial accounts, one to play around with, and one to properly train, so the end result is you get to find something you like, while not being completely gimped at the end of your trial.

Stripping learning skills is probably the most sensible decision out there. It gives the new players a good buff, and added with the attribute redistribution, it might come close to replacing the 800k nerf that's being proposed. (a horrendous idea as well)



But as a previous poster has pointed out, the majority of that 800k was actually from the two level 5 skills that the pilots were given.

Big whoop. Gunnery 5 is require for Large guns, and I doubt a new pilot is going to want to putter around in a BS in his first, second, or maybe even third week.


In addition:

I've finally settled my own conflict with learning skills:


EVE IS A MULTI-YEAR GAME

Its near 7 years old now and it has retained an insane amount of its original players. Learning skills represent that multi-year long-tern investment that is EVE; a game with no real correlation in gaming today.


With the elimination of the lvl 5 req for tier 2 learning skills, you've eliminated the REAL boundry that made learning skill tedious. And actually training level 5 in tier 1 or lvl 4 and 5 in tier 2 is near silly for most: the payoff is literally in years.

SO, any reasonable new pilot that feels they'll be in it for the long haul, will, sometime after month 1, at least train to tier 2 learning which is NOT tedious in the least, and if anything impresses on the new player teh fact that EVE is a long-haul game.



Take away learning and add respecing and you risk cheapening THE ENTIRE GAMING EXPIRENCE.

Seetesh
Caldari
The Resident Haunting
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.02.20 00:11:00 - [332]
 

I personally feel that reducing and handicapping newer players and giving them a mere 50k skill points would only serve to hamper the npe. What you should be doing is giving them the chance to get into a career that they would like quicker. Most new players ive meet are always saying how its terrible that they cant use anything at all and tbh ive seen quite a few leave. This method would only serve to increase the learning curve and is anti-progressive.

A better method would be to allow them to under go training missions etc to advance in a certain field in the form of a school and in return they are rewarded with sp gains of a level in the required field up and until a certain limit of say 1.2mil sp. This i feel would help benefit newer players.

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.20 00:17:00 - [333]
 

Edited by: Gamer4liff on 20/02/2009 00:16:54
Originally by: Goumindong

As you play the game, skill point training speed becomes normalized. So there is no such advantage.


I... what? How on earth can you arrive at this conclusion. Skill point training speed is based on attributes, skills, and implants. You're not using "normalized" correctly. It's not some nebulous wishy washy nonpublic variable. You can trace directly the benefits of training learning skills. If player X didn't train learning skills, but trained gallente industrial 5 or something, and player Y trained learning skills to reasonable levels, and they both decide to start training combat skills at the same time, player Y would be at an advantage, given enough time.
Quote:

The advantage that older players have over younger ones is the time spent training that the younger ones did not have. I have 40 million skillpoints and you're telling me that not only do i need a 40 million skillpoint advantage i need that AND i need to train faster? Seriously


The more work that you put into enhancing your attributes, the faster you deserve to train. It's important to be able to directly influence how fast you learn skills, as skills are one of the most important measures of progress. It's important to have degrees of control over progression.
Quote:

That word does not mean what you think it means. They gain an absolute advantage, not comparative.


Okay fine use the exact economic definition, you still directly contradicted what you said about skilltraining being "normalized over time" and there being no advantage.
Quote:

(protip: we've always been maximizing fun, the two optimizations presented cover all scenarios)


Yes Yes, but that's not what were talking about, we're discussing the impact of potential future systems on new player development, not the past.
Quote:

Can wormhole space be salvaged such that its not a wrecking shot to the nads without deleting it?

Can learning skills? (No, they can't)

Maybe not, but deleting the skills/implants without a replacement system would cripple an entire path of character development.

What would you think of a system where the more skills you train in a field, the faster the skills train in that field? I dare say in the real world knowledge isn't confined to exact skills with no spillovers. How different could explosive armor compensation be from kinetic armor compensation? I dunno, it would certainly fuel specialization.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.20 00:30:00 - [334]
 

Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 20/02/2009 00:31:35
Honestly, how far can everyone take this?


They've added two dyanmics so far to ease new players transition into new eden. Reducing the lvl5 req for tier 1 AND giving a massive SP buff (soon to be replaced with accelerated training times)

When is this going to stop and how far can it be taken? EVE is novel BECAUSE its an old persistent-game. If you make it easier and easier and easier to attain some form of dominance early on you only cheapen the experience.


As I've stated in a previous post, EVE is a game measured in years. Choices you make now should have an impact years from now. If you want efficiencies years down the road, then you make that decision and do it. Honestly, if a player just can't be bothered with taking a week or so to get to tier 2 skills than they really have no place in EVE.


What's teh age of the pro/con learning skill movement? I'm 3.5 years and trained the old way with 14 charisma and <30,000sp (bad build). I'm still here.

Ashen Glie
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.20 00:41:00 - [335]
 

Edited by: Ashen Glie on 20/02/2009 00:42:18
50k skillpoints is a HORRIBLE idea. You're nerfing what players can do when they start while adding ANOTHER array of new ships and modules that require skill training to be able to even get into. If people want to "Decide on their own" what path to take having a better starting area somewhere is not going to hinder them from training other skills, you are gimping a huge amount of abilities a player can do when they start out. A better idea would be to distribute given skills differently to give a broader range of skills you get with the 800k skillpoints. Seriously which dev came up with that genius idea to totally gimp new characters? Fire him.

Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.20 01:27:00 - [336]
 

I still don't understand this whole "new players play the game with 50k SP" idea comes from. I reran my numbers on a spreadsheet and it actually turns out I way overestimated how much SP is required to use basic T1 fits.

You guys are way overestimating the amount of SP needed to use T1 mods.


For some basic setups I made last night I needed the following skillpoints to fly:

Mining Navitas: 4,578 SP
Astrometrics Imicus: 5,078 SP
Ratting Incursus: 21,992 SP
AB Atron Tackler: 13,078 SP
MWD Atron Tackler: 104,338 SP


To be able to fly four of the six racial frigates requires only 2,828 SP
To be able to fly ALL of the racial frigates requires only 16,000 SP
New players will NOT be forced to use the "noobships" due to the new SP cap
To use that MWD Atron Tackler requires two days of training.

To equip a small T1 gun: 500 SP
To equip a 1MN AB: 500 SP
To fit your first armor tank: 4992 SP

Its not exactly staggering. As has been pointed out, most of the 800k SP that characters were starting with was allocated in one or two level 5 skills. Two rank 1 level 5 skills suck up 512,000 SP. The first week of player experience will NOT be gimped by this, and by several months in they'll already have broken even with their 800k compatriots due to the SP boost.

About the only downside I can see is that it will take about an extra week of skilling to get into your first cruiser, and that's only really an issue for sponsored characters I think.


Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.20 01:47:00 - [337]
 

Oh, and need I remind you of the skill queue?

New player goes through an hour or two of the tutorial and thinks: "That profession is neat, I should train the skills I need for these modules." New Player queues up a rack of relevant skills, goes to work/school/walk the dog and when they comes back, SHABAM! They get to try all the shiny new stuff that they selected themselves.

Current experience you pick a career that sounds good. You usually discover that you need a slightly different set of skills. You want to run a level 1 mission and you selected artist manufacturer? Low Perception and Willpower? Sorry, come back and try again in five days. Thus leading to multiple character deletions and creations as people try to figure out what the hell their best starting build should be. This is min-maxing and vaguely nonsensical. Makes much more sense for a player to develop their skills as a personal selection from the very beginning with the two attribute respecs. That means only a complete botch up requires a character deletion.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:04:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: Alezra
To use that MWD Atron Tackler requires two days of training.


Two days that the player is not using playing the game...

That is a grand strategy for retention, have players start the game, and then be unable to play it for two days...

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:06:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Alezra
Oh, and need I remind you of the skill queue?

New player goes through an hour or two of the tutorial and thinks: "That profession is neat, I should train the skills I need for these modules." New Player queues up a rack of relevant skills, goes to work/school/walk the dog and when they comes back, SHABAM! They get to try all the shiny new stuff that they selected themselves.

Current experience you pick a career that sounds good. You usually discover that you need a slightly different set of skills. You want to run a level 1 mission and you selected artist manufacturer? Low Perception and Willpower? Sorry, come back and try again in five days. Thus leading to multiple character deletions and creations as people try to figure out what the hell their best starting build should be. This is min-maxing and vaguely nonsensical. Makes much more sense for a player to develop their skills as a personal selection from the very beginning with the two attribute respecs. That means only a complete botch up requires a character deletion.



Excellent point! The respecing of attributes will also prevent the situation where
someone chooses horrible attributes and figures out that even a few weeks in, that a restart/reroll will benefit them in X amount of months.


Again, there's alot that's been done and that is going to be done that is making newbies life easier. Taking away learning skills and some form of reimbursement is an unnecessarily large change for a small perceived inconvenience that actually does have some utility. (gives substance to training, adds some uniqueness in a post-respec EVE)

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:07:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Alezra
To use that MWD Atron Tackler requires two days of training.


Two days that the player is not using playing the game...

That is a grand strategy for retention, have players start the game, and then be unable to play it for two days...


Unable to use a frickin MWD does NOT prevent a person from participating in PvP...or anything really.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:15:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff

I... what? How on earth can you arrive at this conclusion.


You didn't read the big long post you quoted saying it had "no alternatives" did you?

Let me be sufficiently clear here, over any sufficiently long period, everyone trains the learning skills. Whether this happens immediately or not is irrelevant. Since the "advantage older players have over newer" disappears and is then brought to a single similar number(at least dealing with players who made the same initial attribute choice) as time goes on.

So yea, the training advantage in terms of sp/hour is only over players when they have 40 million skillpoints less than you... I.E. when it doesn't matter.

Quote:
t's important to be able to directly influence how fast you learn skills, as skills are one of the most important measures of progress


You can, with implants. But no, its not important to be able influence how fast you learn skills. That is like saying its important to influence how long it takes you to move a piece in a standard chess game.

The measure of progression is ability, not skillpoints. More specifically, its relative ability, i.e. how you compare to others. Even if you reduced training times, relative ability would stay the same. Of course no one is suggesting reducing training times, so...

Quote:

Yes Yes, but that's not what were talking about, we're discussing the impact of potential future systems on new player development, not the past.


Uhhh, yea, that is exactly what I did. I described an optimal play strategy. I.E. something that you enact in order to make yourself best off. I.E. the plan for which you take action. I.E. the future.

Quote:

Maybe not, but deleting the skills/implants without a replacement system would cripple an entire path of character development.


1. No one is saying to remove implants.
2. No, it would not cripple an entire path of character development.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:16:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

Unable to use a frickin MWD does NOT prevent a person from participating in PvP...or anything really.


It does when you can only fly a navigation 1 frigate.

Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:17:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Alezra
To use that MWD Atron Tackler requires two days of training.


Two days that the player is not using playing the game...

That is a grand strategy for retention, have players start the game, and then be unable to play it for two days...


Didn't someone else with access to the Goonswarm wiki point out that it currently takes 21 hours to train into a MWD Tackler?

ZOOOOMG 24 extra hours! OH GOD I CAN'T PVP INSTANTLY UPON ACCOUNT CREATION.

Come to think of it, in WoW (I seem to recall this example being brought up) you can't even do battlegrounds until level 11, and you can't be effective at battlegrounds until 18 or so, which takes anywhere from 6-20 hours of real gameplay time to accomplish. In eve under the new system you can create a new character and configure a skill queue. Within 48 hours whether you're playing, sleeping, smoking or whatever you'll be able to be an effective part of a PVP force (at least as far as the Goons are concerned.)

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:21:00 - [344]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 20/02/2009 02:47:55
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: CCP Fear

So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


Yes. Worst game mechanic in my eyes, right after Titans. They don't have any bonuses, they are a mandatory skillset you have to do to train efficiently. So you have to waste a month if you expect to play more than 6 months, where absolutely nothing happens at all.


people seem to miss this doesn't mean 1 month in a row.

it just means a month total where you don't play. Wether that means all at once or over 5 months.

that's ******ed.

and your going easy on them.

Originally by: CCP Fear
But what do you think about the new Intro, and the movies in the character creation? More movies?


more movies!

MORE MOVIES!

movies are good :) WE need backstory on the eve gate and our history please. :)



also what are the point of the ancestry now? I've been trying to figure it out but I come up with nothing.


anyways.... MORE MOVIES! movies are good. :)

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:24:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
So, to summarize what has been said about the learning skills;

Learning skills are bad
Learning skills should not be trained by rookies
Rookies are encouraged to train learning skills
Rookies should get learning skills at high levels from character creation
Learning skills should be removed
Learning skills should not be removed.
Learning skills are a long term investment

Ok, I can agree that they are a long term investment. I don't agree they should get them from character creation or that rookies should train them. I already gave a similar answer in another thread (which now I can't find).

In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.

But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic? Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc. What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?





remove advanced learning skills


replace +5 implants with +10.

scale prices.

bam those extra 5 points are now isk based instead of time based.

Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:28:00 - [346]
 

Edited by: Alezra on 20/02/2009 02:28:16
Originally by: MotherMoon

remove advanced learning skills


replace +5 implants with +10.

scale prices.

bam those extra 5 points are now isk based instead of time based.


I think that's exactly what they were trying to avoid.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:28:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Alezra

Didn't someone else with access to the Goonswarm wiki point out that it currently takes 21 hours to train into a MWD Tackler?

ZOOOOMG 24 extra hours! OH GOD I CAN'T PVP INSTANTLY UPON ACCOUNT CREATION.

Come to think of it, in WoW (I seem to recall this example being brought up) you can't even do battlegrounds until level 11, and you can't be effective at battlegrounds until 18 or so, which takes anywhere from 6-20 hours of real gameplay time to accomplish. In eve under the new system you can create a new character and configure a skill queue. Within 48 hours whether you're playing, sleeping, smoking or whatever you'll be able to be an effective part of a PVP force (at least as far as the Goons are concerned.)


Atron =/= Rifter

Regarding WoW. WoW is not a pvp game and has an entirely different gameplay and progression mechanic.

Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:35:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

Atron =/= Rifter

Regarding WoW. WoW is not a pvp game and has an entirely different gameplay and progression mechanic.


So you're saying that the baseline requirement to do pvp in EVE is a Microwarpdrive Rifter?

The only possible way that a new player can sate their thirst for pubbie blood is if they're instantly granted the ability to use a Goonswarm certified fitting upon account creation?

Oh and about the WoW bit, I just threw that out there since some people seem to give a ****. In all honestly I hate WoW, but I think some people would get angry at you for saying it isn't a pvp game Surprised

Mica Swanhaven
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:40:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Alezra
Edited by: Alezra on 20/02/2009 02:28:16
Originally by: MotherMoon

remove advanced learning skills


replace +5 implants with +10.

scale prices.

bam those extra 5 points are now isk based instead of time based.


I think that's exactly what they were trying to avoid.


then **** learning skills in the ass and give them to everyone.

or


reduce advanced to rank 1 skills.


or

remove learning skills from the game, give everyone extra attributes.

or

remove only advanced learning skills, and make normal learning skills train whole others are training?

or

remove learning skills and be done with it. to make simpler, don't even add those points in.

or

every month of play you are given an extra attribute point to put somewhere.

Heres a crazy new idea. implants that you don't need to buy.


Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

Over time more



Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:44:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: Goumindong


1. No one is saying to remove implants.
2. No, it would not cripple an entire path of character development.


If the only way to improve skillpoint gain was through implants, would that be benefiting the rich too much?

And again, I ask you, what about removing and reassigning all learning skillpoints and doing this:

Quote:

What would you think of a system where the more skills you train in a field, the faster the skills train in that field? I dare say in the real world knowledge isn't confined to exact skills with no spillovers. How different could explosive armor compensation be from kinetic armor compensation?



Would this fit your criteria?

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:47:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Alezra
Edited by: Alezra on 20/02/2009 02:28:16
Originally by: MotherMoon

remove advanced learning skills


replace +5 implants with +10.

scale prices.

bam those extra 5 points are now isk based instead of time based.


I think that's exactly what they were trying to avoid.


ok how about...

start all payers with 10/10/10/10/10 BASE unable to change. This would be the advanced learning skills deleted and put right into characters. REMOVE ADVANCED LEARNING SKILLS.

then as you do missions you gain points to put where you want., total number of free points should equal 16. These should be shown in some sort of cool movie, a sort of "oh man you should go do the tutorial missions and gain cool stuff.

Cap the attributes at 20, before learning and implants, meaning you can spend max 10 points in one attribute. This puts max at 30 if you max out learning skills/implnats/and free movable points. Plus learning means 33.

As a 4 year old player I don't care if they cut my balls off, do it ccp, for the betterment of the game as a whole. ONly make 10 of those points HAVE to be gained.

5 points from learning skills over time.
5 points from isk spending.

not 10 for over time and 5 for isk.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:50:00 - [352]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 20/02/2009 02:52:29
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Alezra
To use that MWD Atron Tackler requires two days of training.


Two days that the player is not using playing the game...

That is a grand strategy for retention, have players start the game, and then be unable to play it for two days...


so hey spend those 2 days doing the tutorial, AS THEY SHOULD.

the theycan go use a MWD. doesn't seem to bad. it's like you have to play for 2 days, and that's only 2 days out of 14 free ones.

Originally by: Alezra

Its not exactly staggering. As has been pointed out, most of the 800k SP that characters were starting with was allocated in one or two level 5 skills. Two rank 1 level 5 skills suck up 512,000 SP. The first week of player experience will NOT be gimped by this, and by several months in they'll already have broken even with their 800k compatriots due to the SP boost.





and this is why I believe that all rank 1 skills should be given to new players at level 1.

would only go up to maybe... 100,000-200,000 sp.


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.02.20 02:52:00 - [353]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 20/02/2009 02:52:20
double post

Nessaden
Minmatar
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2009.02.20 04:08:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff
What would you think of a system where the more skills you train in a field, the faster the skills train in that field? I dare say in the real world knowledge isn't confined to exact skills with no spillovers. How different could explosive armor compensation be from kinetic armor compensation? I dunno, it would certainly fuel specialization.
This... is a great suggestion.

Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.02.20 04:26:00 - [355]
 

Quote:
It doesn't. I just proved that it doesn't. Make an argument as to why it makes the game better, you know, the actual part where you get into your spaceship and fly around and do stuff? Make an argument as to why learning skills make that better.


Ok, make an arguement for why we shouldn't remove the Trade, Industry, and (nearly all of the) Science trees. They don't relate to getting into your spaceship and flying around doing stuff.

Personally, I like the Learning skills. Yes. I like them. I trained them when I started my character with about 37,000 skillpoints (yes, a THIRD less than the proposed new system, and with no training speed boost). And I liked them then too. Everybody gets choices. Choices are good. You can CHOOSE to benefit now by training other stuff, or you can CHOOSE to benefit later by training Learning, or you can CHOOSE to mix in a little bit of both. Train Learning while you're at work/school/bed/TV/movies/bar/whatever.

Has anyone ever been bored by training a skill in EVE while they were off doing something else? I can just see the conversation: "Hey guys, this night while we're out having drinks, acting stupid and shooting pool sure is boring because my EVE character is training Eidetic Memory 4 instead of Amarr Cruiser 3". Yes, that conversation has happened many many times, I'm sure.

Strategic choice of skill training may not be YOUR idea of fun, but I thought it was when I was training it, and I still do now. Just like YOU think that being in Goonswarm is fun, and I'd compare that experience unfavorably to removing all my own skin with a potato peeler. You like to claim that the learning skills are objectively bad, which is a completely silly claim, since you're defining the "bad" part based on having fun, something which is entirely subjective. So your entire argument is completely groundless.

Quote:
Two days that the player is not using playing the game...

That is a grand strategy for retention, have players start the game, and then be unable to play it for two days...


Errant BS. I mean, a complete steaming load of cow manure. Like those first two days of barely being able to understand how the game works would be so much better served by flying off to Rancer and getting podded repeatedly. You think missions are a waste of time? Well, 80% (at least) of the playerbase disagrees with you. Even if you want to do nothing but PvP, starting out the first couple of days doing missions is FAR from a waste of time. You learn basic mechanics, like what orbiting is, how guns and missiles work and apply their damage, resistances, how basic fitting principles work (and please spare me any lines about PVE and PVP fits aren't the same, I'm talking about CPU and Powergrid and capacitor), and a whole host of other things that form the foundation of how the game works. And they do this with only the minimal chance of running into someone 50x stronger than they are, being mocked, butchered, podded, and losing everything. You want to see what makes people quit the game more than the Learning tree? Being hopelessly outclassed in PvP and completely destroyed without any hope of winning.

If you're talking about a player who is going to be around for say, a year...2 days without a MWD for PvP is NOTHING. It's a dust mote of time compared to what you learn and the benefits you receive (imagine that, doing missions in your first two days having some crazy benefit like...padding your wallet, something a 1 day old PvPer won't be doing).

Quote:
Atron =/= Rifter


Well, sucks to be anyone who doesn't start Minmatar then. Cause now they have to spend all that extra time picking up Minnie Frigate 1-3. 75% of all new characters made right now are completely boned, according to you...even with the 800k skillpoints they get.



Burgers
Posted - 2009.02.20 08:06:00 - [356]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear

So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


Yes ..

When i got my first trial - i droppet the game after about 10 day. The pain of need to train leaning skills was just borring - Every one that wrote about statning in EVE sad the same start with learning skills before ANYTHING that got borring - you want to see progress, you want to see you become better in some way - and that is where eve is great you can ALLWAYS be better there is allways some skill you can get better in. All games let you do that ( see some kind of progress ). The hole consept of eve that there was tons of stuff to lean was verry inspiring for me .. but the learning skills kill'et me.

About one year later a friend in an other game made a post about if anyone else was playning eve or would like to and i gave an other try and stay'et this time.

My way out of the pain was to NOT train the learning skills to the level every one sad was smart .. no learning skills over 4 - adv skills to 3 ( when i made the isk ) and stop the learning skills when i need'et some combat skill. But without that post - and someone to talk to ingame i would never had come back.

This is an extrme bad time you are making this change - even with "faster traning " you will still be traning learning skills after the trial is over - and you have to find out if the is worth payning for.. bad thing is that yoiu never try'et the game.
On the other side if you DON't train the leaning skills you are behind verry fast.

The problem is that learning skills are TO powerfull you can't get out of then .. even when creating an alt with a skill plan of 2 mil - you end up traning 2 or more learning skills they pay back to fast

When you then remove any help you was getting as a new player .. well now you really NEED to get some skills fast. and that just make it all worse ..

If you are having trobel finding out how to give some use full skill - then let the player select a few certificates .. aktive tanking is pretty easy to get the point in - and there a few other works quite well to.

But i would like to see the learning skills total removed - and if you don't want to do that to whinnes that HAVE train'et them to 5/5 give new players a god start at least Standart to 4 - and adv to 3 - that would make the real choise to train now or later or at all - just like any other skill.

and i would hate to be new player that just got EVE from a Box - and see ooo if just i had startet a few days before i was able to buy the game i would have been in a better postion to try the game.


Porucznik Borewicz
Exile Consortium
Posted - 2009.02.20 08:34:00 - [357]
 

Edited by: Porucznik Borewicz on 20/02/2009 08:44:06
"Once a year, you - and everyone else - can take 14 attribute points, and re-arrange them within reason."

Great! This is really great news. Once a year is just right. Thanx CCP! Good job on this one. Cool

And about the learning skills my friend mentioned before. You want to get rid of them?? Hell NO! Starting skills for new players?! Learning skills at lvl. 3 or 4 right from the start? Woooooha! Hold Your horses! I worked my way up to the SP amount I have right now. Why others should have it easier??!! Any free skills shoud be a NO-GO. And why do learning skills from the beginning? Learn the things You need first. I started the learning skills when I was waaaaaay into the game. NO FREE SKILLS! You wonna rock in this game, You gotta work for it like the 4 year olds had to. Cool

Shuckstar
Gallente
Hauling hogs
Swine Aviation Labs
Posted - 2009.02.20 09:32:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: teji
Edited by: teji on 18/02/2009 16:08:27
Somewhere deep in CCP's asylum:
CCP1: What can we give to new players to help them become useful earlier?
CCP2: Less skillpoints!
CCP1: BRILLIANT!
CCP2: THANK YOU!


Laughing


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2009.02.20 09:34:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Porucznik Borewicz
Edited by: Porucznik Borewicz on 20/02/2009 08:44:06
"Once a year, you - and everyone else - can take 14 attribute points, and re-arrange them within reason."

Great! This is really great news. Once a year is just right. Thanx CCP! Good job on this one. Cool

And about the learning skills my friend mentioned before. You want to get rid of them?? Hell NO! Starting skills for new players?! Learning skills at lvl. 3 or 4 right from the start? Woooooha! Hold Your horses! I worked my way up to the SP amount I have right now. Why others should have it easier??!! Any free skills shoud be a NO-GO. And why do learning skills from the beginning? Learn the things You need first. I started the learning skills when I was waaaaaay into the game. NO FREE SKILLS! You wonna rock in this game, You gotta work for it like the 4 year olds had to. Cool



but with double learning rate, not training your learning is now even more of a bad thing.

Avall
Posted - 2009.02.20 10:14:00 - [360]
 

I just wanted to chime in with the fact that i LOVE the learning skills. I really like the idea that i can make the painful decision to train for them now, and later reap the benefits of that temporary sacrifice.

It doesn't mean I can't train other stuff in between. It definitely doesn't mean anyone should be encouraged to start with them right away. Maybe after a couple of months, when you've decided to commit to the game. It also doesn't mean you have to train them all in one go. THIS is where some effort should be put in, to have newbies relax about training the learning skills until they're ready.

They're also good from a pedagical point of view, since they are among the first skills that really force you to decide on training time versus usefulness of each level. That's a good experience for the rest of the game.

So, in short: please, keep them. I'd even like it if you put in MORE of them. Maybe coupled to implants. Or some other mechanic.



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