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Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.02.19 19:32:00 - [301]
 

Edited by: Reiisha on 19/02/2009 19:32:31
Give 2 or 3 respecs. Total. Ever. NO periodic respecs.


Periodic respecs only skew the game towards the vets, and add nothing at all for newer players who can't afford to train per/wil for a year. It trivializes attributes almost completely, you might aswell remove them and give players of 18 months and older a 100% training bonus.

2 or 3 respecs total give players enough chance to learn about them and distribute them as they see fit, without creating an overly large gap between new players and vets in terms of skillpoints (as far as gaining them goes, anyway). EVE is all about consequence, and attributes are a part of that. If the consequence for bad attributes is removed, that's a slippery slope, considering it's one of the first and most basic decisions players have to make in their career in the game.

CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2009.02.19 19:38:00 - [302]
 

Edited by: CyberGh0st on 19/02/2009 19:48:22
Edited by: CyberGh0st on 19/02/2009 19:47:06
Originally by: Vin'calis
Originally by: CCP Fear
So, to summarize what has been said about the learning skills;

Learning skills are bad
Learning skills should not be trained by rookies
Rookies are encouraged to train learning skills
Rookies should get learning skills at high levels from character creation
Learning skills should be removed
Learning skills should not be removed.
Learning skills are a long term investment




I want to clarify my position on these statements and the reasons for them.

Learning skills as a concept and as a form of character progression are not inherently bad. The idea that an advanced player can invest time for a long-term payoff is sound. However, their implementation means that they are viewed in certain ways by the playerbase (and new players in particular), and these ways are not necessarily good.

Learning skills should not be trained by rookies. This, I think, is one point on which everyone agrees. A new player should not be forced to think about long term payoffs if they are still in their trial period. They have no idea whether they'll still be playing in 6 weeks, let alone 6 months! However...

Rookies are invariably told that they should be training learning skills. Any player wanting to "keep up" with the SP gain of the playerbase at large is essentially forced to train the basic and advanced learnings to 3/4 or more. Any new player wants to "keep up" (or better catch up) with more experienced players. There is an inherent pressure to train the learning skills.

Learning skills should/should not be removed. I suspect that balancing the outright removal of learning skills is too complicated after the length of time that they've been ingame. However, the vast majority of players who stick with the game end up spending a couple of weeks or more training learning skills - which many consider to be wasting time. Much of this "Learning time" is spent in the early stages of a player's EVE career to have the greatest impact on training later.

Learning skills are a long term investment. Yes, they are and they should be. But rookies don't want to be forced into long term investments, they want gratification NOW (or at most, tomorrow). Equally, they don't want to become steadily worse than their fellow newbies by choosing to fall behind the (learning enhanced) SP gain curve.

Rookies should get high learning skills at character creation. This solution is far easier to implement than removing the skills from the game. It also means that the rookies get to train what they want to train (instead of the optimal SP curve), and at no point does a new player face 2 weeks of training for no obvious benefit. The learning skills' timesink and offputting effects would be negated (newbies would already have them), and the rest of the playerbase loses no more than they would gain by having newbie SP cut by 750k SP.

Again, sorry for the wall I've built!


I very much agree with this.

It would be an easy and nice solution, give the rookies the 50k SP of usefull skills and give them +/- 750k SP of learning skills.
I am sure those learning skills won't intimidate the rookies :p

Add to that the 2x boost to 2 mill SP and we have a nice rookie buff, instead of a nerf as it seems like now.

delor
Posted - 2009.02.19 19:49:00 - [303]
 

Edited by: delor on 19/02/2009 19:50:13
I tend to agree with Reiisha's points, although a once-a-year respec is better than nothing at all because it'll let newbies who pumped a lot into charisma or have a low perception fix their mistake. On the other hand, does the system really do anything meaningful in gameplay terms in the first place? I'd be down with removing the attributes entirely. Other than letting newbies screw up their characters for the first few months, which this would fix, they don't add a whole lot to the game. Once you have learning skills and implants they all end up same-ish anyway, and the way they're distributed among the skills doesn't really create much meaningful specialization anyway except a crude divide between industry and military characters. It feels like a system that probably was only added because MMOs usually have attributes in them but didn't really get any sort of rigorous examination of the ultimate gameplay implications and is largely vestigial.

On the other hand, by that same token I have a hard time rallying hard to actually get them removed. They're there, they don't matter much, so is it really worth making a bunch of noise about? The one year respec fixes the main problem (newbs with poorly assigned attributes) and otherwise doesn't really have a huge impact on a largely pointless system besides letting really long-term, hardcore players slightly optimize their training. Whatever. There's more important fish to fry.

delor
Posted - 2009.02.19 20:14:00 - [304]
 

Edited by: delor on 19/02/2009 20:31:56
Originally by: CCP Fear
In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.


But what does this add to the gameplay experience, exactly? They're time you spend gaining nothing just so you have slightly less downtime doing other things in the future.

They provide no entertainment value in and of themselves, and the only really decision they put on you as a player is how much time you're willing to put up with training them and not getting anything new to show for it before you get bored and quit. The actual in-game decision is trivial: except for the ISK bottleneck for advanced skills, the sooner you train them the more you'll benefit from them so train them ASAP.

I'm not advocating this, but if you really wanted to pad out the skill grind just slow down how quickly skill points are accumulated. It has the same effect but spreads out the pain over a longer period of time.

Originally by: CCP Fear
In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.


This is not a good way of stating what they do. If your only thought was that being "faster at training skills" was a good thing, you wouldn't have just said you didn't think they should start out maxed. After all, that will make people faster at training skills too.

What they do is let you spend a lot of time gaining nothing up front in exchange for spending less time waiting for your skills to finish training later. This is not a good thing; the time spent gaining nothing is boring, and because they're so key to your long term skill gain everyone has to train them eventually anyway so you don't feel like you've accomplished anything when you have them.

Originally by: CCP Fear
But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic?


You aren't trying to achieve "faster training times" here, you're trying to achieve a tradeoff of an up-front investment in exchange for faster training times later. As currently implemented in a "training time for more training time" system it doesn't work very well for the reasons I and others have described.

Originally by: CCP Fear
Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc. What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?


It already is an ISK-based implant. Attribute boosting implants. That works OK and is certainly a better system than the learning skills. (at the cost of further de-incentivizing PVP, another problem this game has) Sure, you could flesh it out in several different possible ways.

That's the wrong question, though. The real question is: what do learning skills add to the gameplay experience? If they detract from the new player experience and don't actually add meaningful to the gameplay then why are you looking for a replacement system at all?

kano donn
New Path
Posted - 2009.02.19 20:28:00 - [305]
 

Originally by: Syberbolt8
Originally by: CCP Fear
Originally by: Syekuda
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
LEARNING SKILLS - JUST MAX THEM FOR EVERYONE AND BE DONE WITH THE WORST PART OF GAME DESIGN IN EVE.


I have to agree with Vyktor here, when I train people to play the game, at one point or another, I always say to train the learning skills. The reason is obvious of course but for them there clueless because they don't know the game and those skills.

When they learn about it, they don't like it at all. I know some people from eve when they started to play the game, they were really happy about it, pvp, pve, exploration, mining, you name it they can do it with some hours of skill in it. Of course, its not the best since they don't have lvel 5 but they can do lots of things here so they felt really good about it. But as soon as I started to talk about the learning skill tree, they freaked. I know some even quit the game because they wont wait 1-2 months to start learning skills in a shorter time.

So in all, yes, max those skills and play the game right away. Or better yet, modify the attributes or formula about the time it takes to learn the skill if you ask me.


So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


TBH, learning skills never bothered me, I see all these people that keep saying they have to train the learning skills. IMO you don't have to train anything. I am most likely one of the few 30+ mil SP pilots in game that hasn't trained them max, and tbh it hasn't stopped me from having fun when I was training the ones I have. The thing is, don't train them from the get go, train fun stuff first, stuff you want and like to do so when you do start to train the learning skills, you have other things to do while you wait.
The worst thing any new player can do is take the advice of a old player who thinks the learning skills to max right out of the box is a good thing, in addition, its not like just because your training learning skills that you can't play the game, I don't see how its any more boring to train them then BS to lvl 5, or cruiser's to lvl 5 for that matter. Just IMO, but I think learning skills are fine as long as people stop making them out to be so important to train right off the bat.

P.S. I know not having max learning skills means I didn't get all the sp I could have since 06, but guess what, doesn't really bother me or stop me from playing the game I enjoy.


ditto


Zathi Shaitan
Illiteracy Combatants
Posted - 2009.02.19 20:39:00 - [306]
 

"in its very existence"?

You mean "in its very existence".

dict.org is your friend.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.02.19 20:45:00 - [307]
 

delor said " The real question is: what do learning skills add to the gameplay experience?"
They let you adapt to new situations faster. They let you experience new unexpected things faster than if you didn't have them.

delor
Posted - 2009.02.19 20:48:00 - [308]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
delor said " The real question is: what do learning skills add to the gameplay experience?"
They let you adapt to new situations faster. They let you experience new unexpected things faster than if you didn't have them.



Compared to not having them and re-normalizing attributes as if they were all trained to the maximum value? Quite the opposite.

I don't think anyone is saying we should remove them and then leave everyone at the attribute levels they'd have without them, so you're attacking a strawman.

Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.19 20:55:00 - [309]
 

Originally by: Zathi Shaitan
"in its very existence"?

You mean "in its very existence".

dict.org is your friend.


Pardon me but... wut?

Arnos Von
Posted - 2009.02.19 20:59:00 - [310]
 

Props to continuing to try to make things easier on new players, I think its already come along from previous years, but I've had a number of friends quit early on, not because they didn't like the game or genre, but because it was so confusing to them and grinding learning early on and doing lvl one missions bored them to death.

I agree learning skills are in general bad things as it focuses players (especially new ones) too much on "SP == levels == the point of playing." Rather than seeing SP as a means to an end, rather than the end itself.

Ironically, the idea of giving new players 2x learning speed early on reinforces grinding learning early on, as you'd gain double bonuses from every point of learning skills you grind during that time.

I also have a mechanic to suggest per the discussion. Don't make it implant based as CCP Fear mentioned -- that rewards low risk/ high reward thinking as you're far more likely to lose implants in lowsec/ 0.0. Instead make it station service based (like insurance or medical clones).

Keep the basic learning skill for the .05% speed increase/lvl, but the basic attribute bonuses you purchase the service for. Like insurance it would be a 3 month service, and so long as you had the service, you, any jumpclone of yours, and any medical clone will keep the service (so getting podded doesn't lose the service). Bill it as purchasing special bandwidth for the learning system for your pod or whatever. Let people purchase the service for individual attributes, and ramp the prices exponentially like medical clones (Leaving the balance to CCP, but I'd say something like 50M/ attribute/ 3 month service at maximum bonus is about right).

The advantage is that it rewards risk taking to earn more isk on the part of a young player and prevents them from having to look at skill grinding in their first days. Advanced players would still get rewarded for planning in the aspect of purchasing the service for attributes they need, rather than just getting everything at a very high cost.

To be honest I'd also love to get rid of the +1-+5 implants for the same reason that it rewards low risk game styles in the form of higher skill progression to those who don't risk (and ironically are less in need of skills). If the service offered +1-+15 on the basic attributes at increasing prices, and implants became more about boosting skill sets, it would be great for 0.0 and lowsec. Stop people from needing to jump into their combat clone with cheap +2 or +3's , then back into their highsec skill grinding clone with +5's. Again, learning implants is just a basic mechanism that prevents people from taking the step out of empire because the fear "gimping" their character's learning.

TL;DR? Good to try to help out new players more. Get rid of learning skills is good, replace with a station service model. Getting rid of learning implants too would be nice.

delor
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:11:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Arnos Von
Ironically, the idea of giving new players 2x learning speed early on reinforces grinding learning early on, as you'd gain double bonuses from every point of learning skills you grind during that time.


This isn't really true, though. Because it's cutoff at a flat total SP by training their learning skills first they just hit the cutoff earlier. They don't gain any extra SP from the doubling by training learning skills earlier, just the usual benefits of training learning skills early.

Originally by: Arnos Von
Keep the basic learning skill for the .05% speed increase/lvl, but the basic attribute bonuses you purchase the service for.


Not that I really object, but why bother besides being bound to the notion that we need learning skills at all?

Originally by: Arnos Von
Like insurance it would be a 3 month service, and so long as you had the service, you, any jumpclone of yours, and any medical clone will keep the service (so getting podded doesn't lose the service). Bill it as purchasing special bandwidth for the learning system for your pod or whatever. Let people purchase the service for individual attributes, and ramp the prices exponentially like medical clones (Leaving the balance to CCP, but I'd say something like 50M/ attribute/ 3 month service at maximum bonus is about right).

The advantage is that it rewards risk taking to earn more isk on the part of a young player and prevents them from having to look at skill grinding in their first days. Advanced players would still get rewarded for planning in the aspect of purchasing the service for attributes they need, rather than just getting everything at a very high cost.


If we are stuck on the idea of keeping some sort of learning boost in the game, I think this is the best implementation I've heard suggested so far.

I'd say give everyone +4 to their starting attributes, and then make a really cheap +2, an affordable +4, an expensive +6, and an uber-expensive +8 monthly attribute buff option available. (probably expand the range from +2 to +14 if you get rid of implants as discussed below)

Hey, as a plus side it also adds a much-needed ISK sink to the economy to help counter inflation! (and more grinding of a sort, which I'll imagine is a good thing in CCP's books)

Originally by: Arnos Von
To be honest I'd also love to get rid of the +1-+5 implants for the same reason that it rewards low risk game styles in the form of higher skill progression to those who don't risk (and ironically are less in need of skills).


I agree entirely. Probably best to tilt at one windmill at a time, though.

Nessaden
Minmatar
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:12:00 - [312]
 

Edited by: Nessaden on 19/02/2009 21:15:01
I agree with the suggestion that learning skills should be eliminated and their benefits become permanent additions to our attributes. It would mean new and not-so-new players can experience more of the game faster.

And if learning skills are eliminated, then I think its only fair that all skillpoints invested in them become free to be reinvested in some other skill of our choosing. Methinks such a skillpoint reinvestment feature should be added along with the new skill queue for future use even if it is not needed immediately.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:16:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff

Your base case is only from the perspective of a new player, it ignores the actual long term benefit to players who already have workable skillsets. Learning skills are trainable by anyone, not just new players.



No, i covered that. I've covered that twice. You coming in here and saying "nu uh" does not mean its not true.

Quote:

You sure are verbose, I get the idea. You're right of course, it's the same training path, it's just slower, and locked in to a rate


It is not slower, it is only "slower" by a CCP defined "maximum rate". The only way your argument has any sort of traction is if learning skills extend forever. Which they do not. (and if they did, it would be even more horrible for the game)

Quote:
and doesn't allow for investment savvy players to stash skillpoints away in a proverbial skillpoint bond to be rapaid in full later. I believe this sort of investment and planning adds to the game


It doesn't. I just proved that it doesn't. Make an argument as to why it makes the game better, you know, the actual part where you get into your spaceship and fly around and do stuff? Make an argument as to why learning skills make that better.

Quote:
What we need is education, we need tutorials warning players not to train nothing but learning skills.


No, we have that. They train it because no amount of "education" will change the fact that its objectively better and that the optimal strategies is "train learning skills now"

Quote:

So wormhole space shouldn't exist?


If wormhole space only exists to kick players in the balls, then yea, there is no reason for wormhole space to exist. You said that was what it was there for, i corrected the perception of what you were replying to.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:24:00 - [314]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 19/02/2009 21:26:36
delor said "Compared to not having them and re-normalizing attributes as if they were all trained to the maximum value? Quite the opposite."
I don't like that re-normalizing idea; I don't think boosting everyone's minimum training speed is a good idea. That idea punishes those that trained the skills. It's not fair for someone to spend over a month training those skills then another player gets those month+ worth of skills for free. It also takes away the option of payoff now or payoff later. I like the idea of the player gets to choose if they invest in learning and learn faster later or skip learning and go right into something else. Your removing the choice of payoff something now or payoff something later.


EDIT:
Goumindong said "Make an argument as to why it makes the game better, you know, the actual part where you get into your spaceship and fly around and do stuff? Make an argument as to why learning skills make that better."
I already did. You get to adapt faster. You get to do new unexpected stuff faster. You get to experience some things faster than you could without them.

Nessaden
Minmatar
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:28:00 - [315]
 

Edited by: Nessaden on 19/02/2009 21:30:00
Edited by: Nessaden on 19/02/2009 21:29:40
Originally by: Pottsey
I don't like that re-normalizing idea; I don't think boosting everyone's minimum training speed is a good idea. That idea punishes those that trained the skills. It's not fair for someone to spend over a month training those skills then another player gets those month+ worth of skills for free.
"And if learning skills are eliminated, then I think its only fair that all skillpoints invested in them become free to be reinvested in some other skill of our choosing."
Originally by: Pottsey
Your removing the choice of payoff something now or payoff something later.

But why should that choice even need to be made?
Originally by: Pottsey
I already did. You get to adapt faster. You get to do new unexpected stuff faster. You get to experience some things faster than you could without them.
That's only after you spend a good period of time not experiencing new stuff, and I don't see how that is a good thing.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:37:00 - [316]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
Ok, I can agree that they [the learning skilla] are a long term investment. I don't agree they should get them from character creation or that rookies should train them. I already gave a similar answer in another thread (which now I can't find).

In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.


Exactly! Very good point.

Don't get fooled by a minority of players (though they might be very vocal) which more or less scream to remove learning skills.

I think they are a good enrichment to the game. You do not need them, you can completely do without them, no problem - you will need a couple of more days to learn some skills but so what? Who cares really (except some people with an elitist attitude and very strong focus on skillPOINTS and not on skils)?

If you want to become better you have to do sacrifices at some point. That is exactly the core of Eve. You can't have it all (usually), you need to decide, either this or that. A benefit usually always comes with a drawback.

And learning skills are a very good filler for vactions or such Laughing



And you asked about faster learning? Why? Give the noobs enough skills so that they are at least somewhat useful and do not need to fly around helpless in a rookie ship, then they will have all the time they need for learning more skills.

As newbie there is sooooooooo much to explore, you really do not sit there all time and watch some counter so that the skill finally is complete, or if you sit around then you are certainly doing something wrong! And then it is a lack of information for the new people that there are thousands and more things to do out there.

delor
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:39:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
I don't like that re-normalizing idea; I don't think boosting everyone's minimum training speed is a good idea. That idea punishes those that trained the skills. It's not fair for someone to spend over a month training those skills then another player gets those month+ worth of skills for free.


That's a fairly lame reason. You had to do it the old, suck-y way and so now everyone else does too forever? It doesn't punish you at all. It just benefits new players and not you.

But, hey, they could always just give everyone who did train them bonus SP to compensate like they did when they upped the starting player skills in the first place. I wouldn't complain.

Originally by: Pottsey
It also takes away the option of payoff now or payoff later. I like the idea of the player gets to choose if they invest in learning and learn faster later or skip learning and go right into something else. Your removing the choice of payoff something now or payoff something later.


So what? It's a bad choice. From an in-game perspective training the learning skills early is always the right choice. From an out-of-game perspective you choose between a boring option immediately versus the same boredom spread out over a longer period of time later. Immediate gratification versus delayed gratification can be a good game mechanic but in this case it's strictly detrimental to the play experience.


Originally by: Pottsey
I already did. You get to adapt faster. You get to do new unexpected stuff faster. You get to experience some things faster than you could without them.


Except nobody's proposing to remove them and not buff the attributes to compensate, so your entire premise is flawed.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:52:00 - [318]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 19/02/2009 21:54:00
Haniblecter Teg said "First, insinuating that a dev thought seige warfare was used for seiging is just laughable. The frickin skill is called seiging and any new player would automatically think that, at least that's the angle that's most apparent to me."
Pretty sure a long time ago that skill wasn't called siege warfare but instead got renamed to that. Anyway the dev was insinuating that the skill was useless to new players and that makes the dev look like he has no idea what he is talking about as its a pretty usefull skill to new players. His comment is wrong and not funny.



Haniblecter Teg said "In addition, saying that the dev's are drifting away from the player base because they take away a leadership skill from beginners is seriously moronic."
That's not what I said/meant. The devs feel like they are drifting away from the player base due to the silly changes that have been made. The new worse introduction, the new worse NPE, T3 which most players seem to hate although I dont think T3 is that bad. Making drones and drone ships useless in wormhole space and suggesting they will become useless for missions when they get the same AI and the list goes on.



delor said "It doesn't punish you at all. It just benefits new players and not you."
So you think its perfectly acceptable for player A train 2 months on skills and spend millions on those skills then Player B gets those skills for free both in price and training time!!

How would you feel if you just spent millions of isk and months of time then there is an announcement you just wasted months of time and wasted lots of cash as everyone's getting it for free? Why should new players get to earn a lot more SP in one year then older players could in one year? Why should new players get millions of skill points worth millions of isk for free?



delor said " From an in-game perspective training the learning skills early is always the right choice. From"
No its not. Its only the right choice if you cannot max out you skill plan in x amount of time or if your going to play for longer then X amount of time. Training learning skills early is not always the right choice.



delor said "Except nobody's proposing to remove them and not buff the attributes to compensate, so your entire premise is flawed."
You like saying that don't you. It's not flawed I already explained why buffing up the attributes to compensate is bad. One reason is it boosts the minimum training speed by a large amount which I dont think is good. You said " they could always just give everyone who did train them bonus SP to compensate like they did when they upped the starting player skills in the first place." and look how bad that turned out. Just how could they give bonus SP in a fair way. There is no fair way at least no fair way that wouldn't take an ungodly amount of work to do.

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.19 21:58:00 - [319]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

It is not slower, it is only "slower" by a CCP defined "maximum rate". The only way your argument has any sort of traction is if learning skills extend forever. Which they do not. (and if they did, it would be even more horrible for the game)


I suppose what I should have said is that it eliminates an advantage older players deserve to have against newer players. As you play the game and gain skills and implants things should train faster.

I guess a good replacement for this would be "fields" of learning, where the more skills you have in a certain area would make the remaining skills train faster.

Quote:

It doesn't. I just proved that it doesn't. Make an argument as to why it makes the game better, you know, the actual part where you get into your spaceship and fly around and do stuff? Make an argument as to why learning skills make that better.


You train them and you gain a significant comparative advantage against people who haven't over the long run, in combat, missions, and everything else skill related.
Quote:

No, we have that. They train it because no amount of "education" will change the fact that its objectively better and that the optimal strategies is "train learning skills now"


Only if you're thinking mathematically, if you want to maximize the fun utility of your eve online newbie career, it's objectively better to stagger your learning skills with the skills you need to do stuff. This is the "proper" way to do it, and more people should be educated to do so.

Quote:

If wormhole space only exists to kick players in the balls, then yea, there is no reason for wormhole space to exist. You said that was what it was there for, i corrected the perception of what you were replying to.


Well if you really think that, you should take it up with CCP, some of the hardest wormhole spaces are a real wrecking shot to the nads.

delor
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:00:00 - [320]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
So you think its perfectly acceptable for player A train 2 months on skills and spend millions on those skills then Player B gets those skills for free both in price and training time!!

How would you feel if you just spent millions of isk and months of time then there is an announcement you just wasted months of time and wasted lots of cash as everyone's getting it for free?


Sad, but if it makes the game better I'd accept it.

This isn't worth quibbling over, though. I think almost all of the proponents of the "maxed learning skills" have said they'd be fine with compensating players who had already trained them with a matching SP bonus. So, given that, what exactly are you still upset about?

Originally by: Pottsey
Why should new players get to earn a lot more SP in one year then older players could in one year? Why should new players get millions of skill points worth millions of isk for free?


Because it would make the game better.

Originally by: Pottsey
No its not. Its only the right choice if you cannot max out you skill plan in x amount of time or if your going to play for longer then X amount of time. Training learning skills early is not always the right choice.


Unless you quit the game, your "skill plan" is endless. I assume CCP would rather design the game in a way that encouraged people to subscribe endlessly.

Originally by: Pottsey
You like saying that don't you. It's not flawed I already explained why buffing up the attributes to compensate is bad.


Ok. You explained and I am unconvinced.

Your argument is still a strawman. It's designed to convince people that having learning skills is better than having no learning skills and no other changes to compensate. Nobody is suggesting that we remove learning skills and don't replace them with something else.

maranne marachian
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:11:00 - [321]
 

Originally by: delor
Originally by: Arnos Von
Ironically, the idea of giving new players 2x learning speed early on reinforces grinding learning early on, as you'd gain double bonuses from every point of learning skills you grind during that time.


This isn't really true, though. Because it's cutoff at a flat total SP by training their learning skills first they just hit the cutoff earlier. They don't gain any extra SP from the doubling by training learning skills earlier, just the usual benefits of training learning skills early.




hmm lets see in my first 2-3 weeks i train my learning skills as fast as possible till i hit cap then finish gaining them to say 4/4 while in normal rate i then start training the skills i normally would.

by the end of the first month i'm ahead of someone who doesn't bother in total SP but behind them on "useful" SP by the second month i'm ahead by more SP still because even at the end of the 1.6mil SP i was done ahead of you time wise (maybe 2-3 days)and from this point on i will ALWAYS stay ahead of you as long as we both change skills the second they finish and the second you start to learn learning skills i'll start to pull ahead in useful SP.

therefore for better development overtime a person is better off making a 2nd trial account the second he decides to stay with the game and make it learn the learning skills while he has fun on the first dumping it as soon as the trial ends at which point the other char will have caught up/overtaken in sp.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:13:00 - [322]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 19/02/2009 22:15:19
delor said " I think almost all of the proponents of the "maxed learning skills" have said they'd be fine with compensating players who had already trained them with a matching SP bonus. So, given that, what exactly are you still upset about?"
I don't see a fair way to compensate players with matching SP bonuses. Well not a way that would practical to implant. I don't think boosting the minimum training speed of new players is good either. Making everyone train x3 faster or whatever number it is, is bad. You way has little character progression in that you remove the main way you can make your character progression go faster. Many of us like the feeling of getting better and training faster as our character gets better. Starting off at almost peak training takes away the progression of getting your character better at progression. Starting noobs off at the Elite end of training progression is bad. What makes Eve good is differences not making character more similar.
Removing a way to make your character better and raising the bar so everyone starts at a higher level by default is very bad in my mind.


delor said "Unless you quit the game, your "skill plan" is endless."
No it is not. Some people only train up to max in what they do. Others train alts with each alt only doing a select amount of things. I have a few characters whose skill plans are done and will not train anymore and I am sure others are the same.

Smoke Adian
Caldari
League of Gentlemen
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:31:00 - [323]
 

Edited by: Smoke Adian on 19/02/2009 22:31:25
I think that maxing everyone's basic learning skills while leaving the SOCT learning skills unchanged is a fair compromise. That way learning skills are not critical for new people, but are still available.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:09:00 - [324]
 

I've finally settled my own conflict with learning skills:


EVE IS A MULTI-YEAR GAME

Its near 7 years old now and it has retained an insane amount of its original players. Learning skills represent that multi-year long-tern investment that is EVE; a game with no real correlation in gaming today.


With the elimination of the lvl 5 req for tier 2 learning skills, you've eliminated the REAL boundry that made learning skill tedious. And actually training level 5 in tier 1 or lvl 4 and 5 in tier 2 is near silly for most: the payoff is literally in years.

SO, any reasonable new pilot that feels they'll be in it for the long haul, will, sometime after month 1, at least train to tier 2 learning which is NOT tedious in the least, and if anything impresses on the new player teh fact that EVE is a long-haul game.



Take away learning and add respecing and you risk cheapening THE ENTIRE GAMING EXPIRENCE.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:15:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff

I suppose what I should have said is that it eliminates an advantage older players deserve to have against newer players. As you play the game and gain skills and implants things should train faster.

I guess a good replacement for this would be "fields" of learning, where the more skills you have in a certain area would make the remaining skills train faster.


As you play the game, skill point training speed becomes normalized. So there is no such advantage.

The advantage that older players have over younger ones is the time spent training that the younger ones did not have. I have 40 million skillpoints and you're telling me that not only do i need a 40 million skillpoint advantage i need that AND i need to train faster? Seriously

Quote:

You train them and you gain a significant comparative advantage against people who haven't over the long run, in combat, missions, and everything else skill related.


That word does not mean what you think it means. They gain an absolute advantage, not comparative.

Quote:

Only if you're thinking mathematically, if you want to maximize the fun utility of your eve online newbie career, it's objectively better to stagger your learning skills with the skills you need to do stuff. This is the "proper" way to do it, and more people should be educated to do so.



I've already answered the optimal skill training scenario for that. Kudos for not reading it though. (protip: we've always been maximizing fun, the two optimizations presented cover all scenarios)

Quote:

Well if you really think that, you should take it up with CCP, some of the hardest wormhole spaces are a real wrecking shot to the nads.


Can wormhole space be salvaged such that its not a wrecking shot to the nads without deleting it?

Can learning skills? (No, they can't)

SmokeyJones
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:17:00 - [326]
 

Edited by: SmokeyJones on 19/02/2009 23:19:00
Originally by: CCP Fear
So, to summarize what has been said about the learning skills;

Learning skills are bad
Learning skills should not be trained by rookies
Rookies are encouraged to train learning skills
Rookies should get learning skills at high levels from character creation
Learning skills should be removed
Learning skills should not be removed.
Learning skills are a long term investment

Ok, I can agree that they are a long term investment. I don't agree they should get them from character creation or that rookies should train them. I already gave a similar answer in another thread (which now I can't find).

In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.

But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic? Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc. What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?




Learning skills are evil.

Tried to bring some friends to EVE, but most of them, didnt had patience to wait 1 month and a half to raise their learning skills.

Then the next complaiment its the time he need to expend to be someone in EVE. "What??? 4 months??? Are you sane?"

They thought that EVE could have these skills already trained and the game could give them ways to reach the older players more faster.

Sugestions... hummm... every month he plays the game in his first year of Eve he should get a training boot of somekind. I can imagine a item, or a special implant that doubles his training ability.

The first month of Eve is Evil with rookies...

edit: correct typos.

Tamasan
Gallente
BLACK LABEL INC
Malum Exuro
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:39:00 - [327]
 

I am eagerly awaiting part 2. I have great respect for the game designers at CCP, so I will reserve judgment until I know the whole story. However, first impressions:

Starting a noob with 50K skillpoints? Someone has gone bat**** crazy.

Then on second thought, I realized that couldn't be all, even with the faster learning time up to 1.6m SP.

If we also get all of the following, this could end up for the better.

- Noob ships that aren't completely useless (more slots, more grid/cpu)
- A redo of most of the basic modules to not require large amounts (for the noob) of skillpoints (must include all standard ewar mods: ecm, damps, target painter, tracking disruptor; all standard tackling mods: web, scram and disruptor; most shield and armor tank mods; both afterburners and MWDs; and non-combat mods like mining lasers and cargo expanders)
- Either cheaper basic skill books, or more of them in rewards of the initial noob missions

But without those things, and more, why would a new player stick around if all they can fly around for weeks is a useless ship that they really can't change in anyway?

Originally by: CCP Fear
So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


Obviously, you'll never get a unanimous answer to a question like that in any large online community. No fair asking a question you already know the answer to.

I think a far better question would be to ask WHY someone hates/likes the learning skills. And then to make a rational decision weighing the pros and cons of possible solutions.

Personally, I hate the learning skills. So let me start by giving the reasons why I like them.
- I think long term. Therefore training them early will give me an edge over those who don't, eventually. Delayed gratification for someone patient instead of short term fun.

Now, reasons I hate them with the fury of ten thousand suns going supernova.
- I think long term. Therefore training them early will give me an edge over those who don't, eventually. Delayed gratification for someone patient instead of short term fun.

To someone like me, who strives for efficiency and long term development and planning (2 years minimum, 4-5+ years is long term in a MMO to me), the learning skills feel like a necessary evil. My learning skills after playing for 2 years are all basic are 5, advanced memory 5, other advanced to 4. The last four level 5s gnaw at me, saying 'Train meeeeee' even though I know it'll take years to get ahead.

At the very least, something has to be done about them. Is it really so bad to even think that there might have been a minor mistake in adding them? CCP has always impressed me because of their willingness to go and completely redesign something that worked, but that just wasn't as fun as it could be (what iteration are we on in scanners/probes, 3rd? 4th?) Perhaps it is time to let them die, or else impress us all with something that adds to them or makes them useful beyond simply learning skills faster.

SmokeyJones
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:44:00 - [328]
 

Originally by: SmokeyJones

Sugestions... hummm... every month he plays the game in his first year of Eve he should get a training boot of somekind. I can imagine a item, or a special implant that doubles his training ability.



Quoting myself! :)

I thought some names for these kind of itens and their properties:
> DNA improvement pill - Item can only be used, manufactured for the same char (prevent trade)
> Intensive Battle Training - While you are offline, you will train doubled
> Professional Coaching - The CEO of your company will share with your his experience (prevent trade)
> Temporal distortion - The Character pass through a artificial space anomaly that boosts his training skills.
> Brain wash xxx skill - Itens that give him skill points in some rank 1 skills (maximum to lvl 3)
> Training Chip/implant - Chip sincronized with the brain waves of the char (prevent

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.19 23:53:00 - [329]
 

I'm in agreement with many in this thread:


Newbs should be given, as a minimum SP and skills, the ability to field both an AB, MWD, and tier 3 or 4 frigate so that they can be of IMMEDIATE use in pvp.

Shinma Apollo
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2009.02.20 00:03:00 - [330]
 

I can't think of one person who has ever joined eve and been excited to do learning skills. I didn't even properly train mine for a good few months, and I'd be quite happy with them being done away. To the new guys I run into, I stress you MUST train learning skills, but what you can do is take two trial accounts, one to play around with, and one to properly train, so the end result is you get to find something you like, while not being completely gimped at the end of your trial.

Stripping learning skills is probably the most sensible decision out there. It gives the new players a good buff, and added with the attribute redistribution, it might come close to replacing the 800k nerf that's being proposed. (a horrendous idea as well)


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