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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:45:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Goumindong
Truckload of :words:


A whole lot of words in this post(s), and none of them are alternatives. There still needs to be a mechanic rewarding time investment that makes training time less, and at the same time is ungrindable. People who invest time should train faster than people who haven't. It would be stupid to have a uniform, or near uniform with implants, training time for everything.

Unless there is an alternative that rewards time investment in a way that is fair and neutral to all styles of gameplay, and all types of eve players, then we should stick with learning skills.



That rewards time invested?



Yea, its called ISK. Make alot of it and BUY a better character. Jesus, its people like you that really want to take this games uniqueness away.

Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:45:00 - [272]
 

Personally I'm not a big fan of learning skills. They are very boring yet still necessary.

Why not use a different mechanic.
Some sort of in game activity which augments your sp?
time spent mining improves your mining skills?
time spent fcing improves your leadership?
time spent missioning give you points towards your social skills?

Or... why not be able to pay isk for a sp boost? taking isk out of the economy is never a bad thing. That is essentially what is happening with you buy a skillbook.



Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:52:00 - [273]
 

I was playing for a 1.5 months and loving the game. I had money and was already in 00 with old old old IRON and G.

I started my learning skills and actually stopped playing for 3 weeks while they finished. It really irked me.


Now, mind you, this was when you had to train tier 1 to level 5 before tier 2 became available. So, I'm not sure what kind of time commitment you have to give now. Guess that's what matters.


The big difficulty is, how do you get rid of learning without truly destroying the meaning of attributes? Just add 10 to everyone? Get rid of the skill and add 5? Make them super easy to train, like rank 1/2 or something? That's honestly the real issue for me, what to do to get rid of them?

Tlar Sanqua
Gallente
Gallente Defence Initiative
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:53:00 - [274]
 

Edited by: Tlar Sanqua on 19/02/2009 17:00:16
Originally by: CCP Fear
So, to summarize what has been said about the learning skills;

Learning skills are bad


I think the majority in this thread are saying that the timesink at the start of the game is bad. The effect of learning skills is of course attractive to all players.
Quote:

Learning skills should not be trained by rookies
Rookies are encouraged to train learning skills


As very neatly described above, Learning skills are a time sink that reduce player enjoyment. The boon is faster skill's training time, which all players want, but the loss of time being able to do fun stuff (fly a tackler frigate, fly a hauler, trade on the market, start mining etc). The worst part is that most players are put off as he "has" to train the learning skills to gain optimum skill rate gain. This is something that a new player can understand as it takes very little knowledge and is comparable with other MMORPGs. Max stats=uber according to most other mmorpgs.

Quote:

Learning skills should be removed
Learning skills should not be removed.


This argument will always be inherently bias between those that have trained them to L5 and those that haven't. Those that have spent time on them do not want to be penalised, those that haven't don't want to waste time doing them now.

Quote:

Learning skills are a long term investment



Learning skills at L5 are considered the long term investment. Levels 1-4 are much easier to see the pay off and pretty much every character after a year will have these ('cept maybe charisma :p)

Quote:

Ok, I can agree that they are a long term investment. I don't agree they should get them from character creation or that rookies should train them. I already gave a similar answer in another thread (which now I can't find).

In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.

But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic? Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc. What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?



My personal opinion is that new characters should receive all the learning skills at L4 (including the rank 3's). This allows for those that want the long term gain, but provides a genuine choice imho - do I spend 6 days on Instant Recall or do I get funky Tech2 frigs? Also, by giving all new characters 4/4 you won't offend any who have already trained the skills, and can neatly sidestep the do we get rid of them or readjust them argument. This sort of choice fits far better with what you've said in the other thread. Oh and to help you out: :)

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=995241&page=2#43

I hope that this idea at least draws some discussion and merit.

<Edited due to poor spelling>

CCP Fear

Posted - 2009.02.19 16:54:00 - [275]
 

But what do you think about the new Intro, and the movies in the character creation? More movies?

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:56:00 - [276]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Goumindong
Truckload of :words:


A whole lot of words in this post(s), and none of them are alternatives. There still needs to be a mechanic rewarding time investment that makes training time less, and at the same time is ungrindable. People who invest time should train faster than people who haven't. It would be stupid to have a uniform, or near uniform with implants, training time for everything.

Unless there is an alternative that rewards time investment in a way that is fair and neutral to all styles of gameplay, and all types of eve players, then we should stick with learning skills.


There are very few words in this, and none of them present an argument. There does not need to be a mechanic by which you trade training time now for training time later. It is not axiomatic. The people who are in the game longer have more skills and more breadth and depth of what they are able to do to achieve their goals. People who train different things will still have different abilities with different specializations. This does not change that.

There does not need to be a mechanic that forces people to get kicked in the balls.

Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:58:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
So, to summarize what has been said about the learning skills;

Learning skills are bad
Learning skills should not be trained by rookies
Rookies are encouraged to train learning skills
Rookies should get learning skills at high levels from character creation
Learning skills should be removed
Learning skills should not be removed.
Learning skills are a long term investment

Ok, I can agree that they are a long term investment. I don't agree they should get them from character creation or that rookies should train them. I already gave a similar answer in another thread (which now I can't find).

In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.

But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic? Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc. What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?




In a nutshell. No. Once you've implemented learning skills. You're SOL. Its a catch 22. If you add in some other mechanic that does the "They make you faster at training skills."... You either have to add it on top of learning skills, or remove learning skills. If you remove them, you're left with upset older players who now find themselves having wasted two months of training. If you add another mechanic on top of them, you're just increasing the complexity of the system for no good reason.

So you're left with a choice. Do you bite the bullet and start from a perspective that learning skills are a big FAIL, with the intent to remove.. Or do you revisit it with an intent to patch and make better. And if the former.. do you want to really jump off the deep end and remove all associated attribute gains older players have made, or boost everyone to the same 50 attribute gain?

Personally, I'd bite the bullet and go toward removing them completely, and then to not upset everyone off AS much.. give everyone 50 points. After that, I'd start designing a system from the ground up that is able to give you a MINOR boost to training time(5-10%) in a specific area of training at one time. I'm talking a completely well thought out market driven system. NPCs drop loots, which are combined by industry types with stuff miners mine, and are then sold on the market.

NPC drops Perception Salvage Alpha, which combines with Mind-Metal[tm], and that produced a Perception Trainer Alpha. 5% bonus to train time on skills that require Perception. A beta could give 10% however. And its not an implant.

Its a slot you load onto Aura, which makes Aura 5% better at teaching us perception based stuff. If pod goes poof, she keeps the program upgrade. If you want to train something other than perception based stuff, gotta junk the program and write over the slot with another program... Charisma 5% bonus. Whatever.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:58:00 - [278]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 19/02/2009 16:59:49
Originally by: CCP Fear
But what do you think about the new Intro, and the movies in the character creation? More movies?


What is the purpose of the intro and movies in character creation?(I've only looked at the new intro, not any movies in character creation).

Because i suspect that we would be a bad metric for whether or not its good, seeing as we largely already play the game with enough zeal to post on an internet forum about it and so are largely divorced with the primary purpose(to make you want to play the game)

Originally by: Halycon Gamma
If you remove them, you're left with upset older players who now find themselves having wasted two months of training


As an older play i will gladly say that just because CCP kicked me in the balls with learning skills does not mean i would not be happy if CCP stopped kicking newer players in the balls with learning skills.

Even if i didn't get anything out of it(which i would not mind, because hey, free stuff, everyone loves free stuff!)

Franconis
Gallente
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:03:00 - [279]
 

Respec ftw! \o/

CCP Fear

Posted - 2009.02.19 17:04:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 19/02/2009 16:59:49
Originally by: CCP Fear
But what do you think about the new Intro, and the movies in the character creation? More movies?


What is the purpose of the intro and movies in character creation?(I've only looked at the new intro, not any movies in character creation).

Because i suspect that we would be a bad metric for whether or not its good, seeing as we largely already play the game with enough zeal to post on an internet forum about it and so are largely divorced with the primary purpose(to make you want to play the game)

Originally by: Halycon Gamma
If you remove them, you're left with upset older players who now find themselves having wasted two months of training


As an older play i will gladly say that just because CCP kicked me in the balls with learning skills does not mean i would not be happy if CCP stopped kicking newer players in the balls with learning skills.

Even if i didn't get anything out of it(which i would not mind, because hey, free stuff, everyone loves free stuff!)


The purpose of the intro movie was firstly to replace the old one. It was old, favoring one race over the other etc. We wanted to "spiffy" it. It gives a little insight into what is going to happen in the game, but doesn't go very deep into it.

The movies in character sheet is to give more flare, give more info, do it in a movie, make it awesome etc.

But my question remains; are the movies good? There is also new text in character creation to reflect changes in RP since long time ago. So there is quite alot of RP in there, the movies are there to enhance that in a different format. I'm perhaps biased in that, but I think they are cool.

Would you like to see more?

prodalt
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:15:00 - [281]
 

Edited by: prodalt on 19/02/2009 17:15:34
I am not sure, i'll try and watch them and get back to you sometime before tomorrow(est)

ed: this is Goumindong, something went funky with my settings

Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:19:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 19/02/2009 16:59:49
Originally by: CCP Fear
But what do you think about the new Intro, and the movies in the character creation? More movies?


What is the purpose of the intro and movies in character creation?(I've only looked at the new intro, not any movies in character creation).

Because i suspect that we would be a bad metric for whether or not its good, seeing as we largely already play the game with enough zeal to post on an internet forum about it and so are largely divorced with the primary purpose(to make you want to play the game)

Originally by: Halycon Gamma
If you remove them, you're left with upset older players who now find themselves having wasted two months of training


As an older play i will gladly say that just because CCP kicked me in the balls with learning skills does not mean i would not be happy if CCP stopped kicking newer players in the balls with learning skills.

Even if i didn't get anything out of it(which i would not mind, because hey, free stuff, everyone loves free stuff!)


I'd give it up as well, because its the Kick in the Balls that keeps on giving. Every couple months my corp goes on a recruitment drive, and I'm left explaining Learning Skills to a new player. And every couple months myself and another person in my corp have The Argument.. over the best way to approach learning when explaining it to the new players. I'd gladly give up my time spent learning the skills, just to never have that argument ever again. I'd much rather have arguments over actual real gameplay mechanics and philosophies than stupid learning skills.

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:21:00 - [283]
 

Learning skills:

I don't think they are useless and a waste of time. If I'm lucky, I use my other skills 8 hours a day. I use my learning skills 24/7.

I think it's a matter of choice, if you want to spend time on learning skills in your 1st month instead of "fun" skills, or not. I think some people don't like that choice. I think they just want both. If they didn't like the skills they wouldn't train them.
Personally, the reason I think I don't have any issues with them is because I use them in a way that is rewarding for me.
I didn't spend my first month training them, I train them when I "need" them: Whenever EvEmon indicates I should train them because it will make my "fun skill training plan" end earlier. So maybe I bypassed the issue here, I dunno.

So I guess what I'm saying is that it's a point of view/patience issue/choice people don't want to make and doesn't really exist in my world. :)

I never wasted time on learning skills, they gave me more time.

But hey, I'm a guy who has the patience to fly a velator for months and fit it with T2 modules before I bought a Tormentor, so I guess I'm a bit of an oddball over here.Razz

P.S. The new intro movie does say something about patience, so I guess it's supposed to be part of the game. I like the new intro, I even wished for it just hours before I found out you made one, lol. I haven't seen the racial ones yet though.

permion
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:22:00 - [284]
 

They already have the 2x bonus for new players. Give everyone the 2x bonus for the number of SP they've invested into learning skills then another 10% to 15% ontop of that.

Sure it'll suck for a while but in the end they'll come out ahead, and during that time they'll have the same/more attribute points and the ability to respec them exactly how they please at the same time. Might as well toss in two respecs if they're over a certain amount of time so they can meta/twink-game a bit during that 2x bonus time.
____________________

The movie isn't as good as the last one. The real introduction to the universe all the driving motivators for story, what has happened in the past, and where it can go were laid out plain as day. The new one focuses way to much on the individual player and then encourages becoming a leader without giving a single hint to the requirements.

The general plot of the universe is for more interesting to me, than saying "Hi come play our game we'll call you a god(lowercase)"

Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:23:00 - [285]
 

Learning skills just frustrate new players because they feel like they're falling further behind until they train them, and while they're learning the game and exploring all the cool awesomeness EVE offers, they suddenly have to stop finding great new things about it. That's boring.

Maybe CCP could replace these skills some sort of sliding scale over time, where characters get a small bonus to their attributes every month the account is active. The trick would be in balancing it so vets feel they didn't get shafted for the SP they put into Learning but new players don't feel they continue to fall behind.

Aion Morpheus
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:27:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
So, to summarize what has been said about the learning skills;

Learning skills are bad
Learning skills should not be trained by rookies
Rookies are encouraged to train learning skills
Rookies should get learning skills at high levels from character creation
Learning skills should be removed
Learning skills should not be removed.
Learning skills are a long term investment

Ok, I can agree that they are a long term investment. I don't agree they should get them from character creation or that rookies should train them. I already gave a similar answer in another thread (which now I can't find).

In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.

But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic? Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc. What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?




I think that when people says Learning skills are bad, they mean learning Learning skills is bad, because you are not improving your character but improving your ability to improve your char. Thats great, but not when you have low sps and need to improve your char to play, so yes, Learning skills should not be trained by rookies.

But the training of this skills gets better with time, the sooner you train them, the more benefits you can pull of them, so Rookies are encouraged to train learning skills (not necesarily by old players, I was encouraged by myself for this very fact).

Rookies should get learning skills at high levels from character creation because they have to train other skills to be able to play, I mean that you need to improve your character if you want to enjoy the game when starting the game, althought this will put yourself behind the ones who made the sacrifice and didn't play until they had the learning skills learnt. This will be more so now that rookies are going to start with very few skillpoints.

So Learning skills should be removed because they are frustrating a lot of new characters, making some of them quit the game. We want the game to be enjoyed by more people, not less, and removing learning skills will not make the ones who don't care about maximizing their sps unhappy, but will remove frustration from the ones who do.

But Learning skills should not be removed, because everyone likes to train things faster and the number of skills has increased so much that we need this ones to be competent enough in a decent time, so the learning skills are welcomed for this. Also we older players have trained them so new players should have too, because everybody else should have the same advantages and dissadvantages that we had... but i think that the gap between old and new players should be reduced as time goes by.
I mean, the gap should be there, but new players should be able to reduce the gap given time. That was the reason implants and advanced learnings were introduced, but now they accomplish its function no more, because Learning skills are a long term investment and so it has become an advantage for the older players who has already trained them over the new players who has to train them and lose effective skillpoints or don't train them and be behind the rest.

I think that giving 4/3 learnings trained for the new characters should be the next logic step because it is the minimun you must train to stay along in the game. Other ways are possible, but this is the easiest and don't interfere with existing chars but I believe that something should be done to avoid frustration on new players and make the game better and more poppulated.

Vin'calis
Interstellar Federal Forces
Forged Dominion
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:27:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
So, to summarize what has been said about the learning skills;

Learning skills are bad
Learning skills should not be trained by rookies
Rookies are encouraged to train learning skills
Rookies should get learning skills at high levels from character creation
Learning skills should be removed
Learning skills should not be removed.
Learning skills are a long term investment




I want to clarify my position on these statements and the reasons for them.

Learning skills as a concept and as a form of character progression are not inherently bad. The idea that an advanced player can invest time for a long-term payoff is sound. However, their implementation means that they are viewed in certain ways by the playerbase (and new players in particular), and these ways are not necessarily good.

Learning skills should not be trained by rookies. This, I think, is one point on which everyone agrees. A new player should not be forced to think about long term payoffs if they are still in their trial period. They have no idea whether they'll still be playing in 6 weeks, let alone 6 months! However...

Rookies are invariably told that they should be training learning skills. Any player wanting to "keep up" with the SP gain of the playerbase at large is essentially forced to train the basic and advanced learnings to 3/4 or more. Any new player wants to "keep up" (or better catch up) with more experienced players. There is an inherent pressure to train the learning skills.

Learning skills should/should not be removed. I suspect that balancing the outright removal of learning skills is too complicated after the length of time that they've been ingame. However, the vast majority of players who stick with the game end up spending a couple of weeks or more training learning skills - which many consider to be wasting time. Much of this "Learning time" is spent in the early stages of a player's EVE career to have the greatest impact on training later.

Learning skills are a long term investment. Yes, they are and they should be. But rookies don't want to be forced into long term investments, they want gratification NOW (or at most, tomorrow). Equally, they don't want to become steadily worse than their fellow newbies by choosing to fall behind the (learning enhanced) SP gain curve.

Rookies should get high learning skills at character creation. This solution is far easier to implement than removing the skills from the game. It also means that the rookies get to train what they want to train (instead of the optimal SP curve), and at no point does a new player face 2 weeks of training for no obvious benefit. The learning skills' timesink and offputting effects would be negated (newbies would already have them), and the rest of the playerbase loses no more than they would gain by having newbie SP cut by 750k SP.

Again, sorry for the wall I've built!

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:28:00 - [288]
 

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Goumindong
Truckload of :words:


A whole lot of words in this post(s), and none of them are alternatives. There still needs to be a mechanic rewarding time investment that makes training time less, and at the same time is ungrindable. People who invest time should train faster than people who haven't. It would be stupid to have a uniform, or near uniform with implants, training time for everything.

Unless there is an alternative that rewards time investment in a way that is fair and neutral to all styles of gameplay, and all types of eve players, then we should stick with learning skills.



That rewards time invested?



Yea, its called ISK. Make alot of it and BUY a better character. Jesus, its people like you that really want to take this games uniqueness away.


Hur Hur Hur, my point is that there should be a way to make skills train faster, I'm sorry if you don't see the utility of such a thing in a game so heavily dependent on skills bound by time.

Originally by: Goumindong

There are very few words in this, and none of them present an argument.


Your entire argument can be invalidated by the fact that players are free to train whatever they want and learning skills are 100% optional, leaving the player to decide what he wants to do. If they are getting bored training learning skills, then THEY SHOULD STOP TRAINING LEARNING SKILLS. Again though, this is a social problem, and one caused by people telling new players to max learning skills first.
Quote:

There does not need to be a mechanic by which you trade training time now for training time later. It is not axiomatic.


Yes there does need to be a method, for depth reasons. It enhances the game that one of the primary methods of progression can be enhanced. It's a matter of building momentum.
Quote:

The people who are in the game longer have more skills and more breadth and depth of what they are able to do to achieve their goals. People who train different things will still have different abilities with different specializations. This does not change that.


Well yeah, but it still is eliminating a massive increase to a primary means of progression, and it lessens the ability of a player to shape a character's skill progression, such as only training the learning skills for perception to get better gunnery, for example.
Quote:

There does not need to be a mechanic that forces people to get kicked in the balls.

Then what do you call wormhole space? Laughing

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:35:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff

Your entire argument can be invalidated by the fact that players are free to train whatever they want and learning skills are 100% optional, leaving the player to decide what he wants to do. If they are getting bored training learning skills, then THEY SHOULD STOP TRAINING LEARNING SKILLS. Again though, this is a social problem, and one caused by people telling new players to max learning skills first.


Yes, players are entirely free to get kicked in the balls. I covered that.

Quote:

Yes there does need to be a method, for depth reasons. It enhances the game that one of the primary methods of progression can be enhanced. It's a matter of building momentum.


"it enhances the game" is not an argument. Its a statement. Its not true, they do not enhance the game. I actually spent 4000+ characters explaining why it doesn't enhance the game. Then i spent more doing it again in simple terms.

Yes there needs to be a reason

Quote:

Well yeah, but it still is eliminating a massive increase to a primary means of progression, and it lessens the ability of a player to shape a character's skill progression, such as only training the learning skills for perception to get better gunnery, for example


It does none of these things, the players optimal train does not change. It does not lessen an ability of a player to shape skill progression in any way, because the only skills that matter to filling goals are non-learning skills. Those non-learning skills will have the exact same training path before as after removing learning skills.

Those non-learning skills. I.E. the skills that determine what you do in the game, will have the exact same training path before as after removing learning skills.

The skills that determine what you do in the game will have the exact same training path before as after removing learning skills

Exact same training path before as after removing learning skills

Exact same training path

Exact same.

Quote:

Then what do you call wormhole space?


I didn't say they don't exist, i said they do not need to.

Smoke Adian
Caldari
League of Gentlemen
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:38:00 - [290]
 

Edited by: Smoke Adian on 19/02/2009 17:40:05
Originally by: CCP Fear
So... does everybody hate the learning skills?


Yes, as far as NPE goes learning skills are a real downer. New players want to get involed in the action and train skills they feel are 'awesome'. Instead they are told to train learning and cool their heels in station. It is good advice, but it vastly reduces fun. No one wants to start off in EVE training a skill that gives no benefit beyond getting the 'real' skill faster.

I followed the learning skill advice and promptly canceled my subscription after training 1.5 mill worth of learning and being utterly bored with the game. Thankfully I came back and tried again. :)

As far as the 50k start, why not utilize certificates? Give new players certain 'core' certificates so they can be useful out of the box. The 50k start functions much like the learning skills in reducing fun out of the gate. Instead, reinforce the cert system which is massively useful to new players who need a sense of direction.

Back to learning skills. I would lvl 5 all the basic learning and leave SOCT skills untrained (but reduce their training length to the normal learning skills). This would be a decent compromise.

Zzelle
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:50:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear

But my question remains; are the movies good? There is also new text in character creation to reflect changes in RP since long time ago. So there is quite alot of RP in there, the movies are there to enhance that in a different format. I'm perhaps biased in that, but I think they are cool.

Would you like to see more?


I finally managed to log into Singularity this morning (had no luck at all yesterday). I enjoyed the new intro movie -- seemed like a nice setup/intro to me. It was pretty pixelated at 1920x1200.

Unfortunately having created one new character, I have no more empty character slots and have to wait 10+ hours until another character is terminated to explore the character creator a bit more.
One thing I meant to try bit didn't was to see if, once you get to the character customization screen, can you flip around between all the races/bloodlines/etc without backing out and going back in (so you can more rapidly explore the different facial features, outfits, etc, available to a new character).

It might be useful to clearly state somewhere (for new players) that the decisions they make here do not impact what they can do in-game (everyone's going to have the same basic starter skillset, has the same opportunity to learn whatever, etc, right?).

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:51:00 - [292]
 

Edited by: Gamer4liff on 19/02/2009 17:54:13
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 19/02/2009 17:51:04
Originally by: Goumindong

"it enhances the game" is not an argument. Its a statement.
Its not true, they do not enhance the game. I actually spent 4000+ characters explaining why it doesn't enhance the game. Then i spent more doing it again in simple terms.


Your base case is only from the perspective of a new player, it ignores the actual long term benefit to players who already have workable skillsets. Learning skills are trainable by anyone, not just new players.
Quote:

It does none of these things, the players optimal train does not change. It does not lessen an ability of a player to shape skill progression in any way, because the only skills that matter to filling goals are non-learning skills.


Well there's a few cases I can think of where this is not true. For one thing, what if my goal is to hit 100m sp before 2010? Skill related goals are just as valid as any other.
Quote:

Those non-learning skills. I.E. the skills that determine what you do in the game, will have the exact same training path before as after removing learning skills.

The skills that determine what you do in the game will have the exact same training path before as after removing learning skills

Exact same training path before as after removing learning skills

Exact same training path

Exact same.


You sure are verbose, I get the idea. You're right of course, it's the same training path, it's just slower, and locked in to a rate, and doesn't allow for investment savvy players to stash skillpoints away in a proverbial skillpoint bond to be rapaid in full later. I believe this sort of investment and planning adds to the game. I can see entirely where you are coming from, of course, new players training learning skills and quitting is a huge problem, but we shouldn't destroy an entire path of investment, one of the ones that classically exemplifies eve as a game of planning. What we need is education, we need tutorials warning players not to train nothing but learning skills.
Quote:

I didn't say they don't exist, i said they do not need to.

So wormhole space shouldn't exist?

EDIT: Thought of something else: Why not give out skill levels as rewards for completing tutorial missions of their chosen school? It would at least ensure characters exiting that phase of the game would have some workable skills. Even if it would be unrealistic when compared to standard missions.

Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
Posted - 2009.02.19 17:59:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
But what do you think about the new Intro, and the movies in the character creation? More movies?


As soon as there is a mac client I will start testing and submitting feedback, but until then... I can no see all the new shiny!!!!


Guimoman
Posted - 2009.02.19 18:00:00 - [294]
 

Edited by: Guimoman on 19/02/2009 18:01:37
Originally by: CCP Fear
Edited by: CCP Fear on 18/02/2009 13:16:29
Originally by: Braaage
You state attributes can be changed once per year, it was every 6 months on Sisi - which is it?

Also are there any plans on increasing the starting ISK since you can't buy any skill with 5,000 ISK you get once started.


Things on Sisi change. Sisi should have the current and correct version up now.

New players get 2 respecs
All other players get 1


Cost is 0 ISK
1 year cooldown timer.


1 year instead of 6 months = fail Sad

Helin Fares
Posted - 2009.02.19 18:16:00 - [295]
 

We all agree learning skills are hated by rookies. I hated them too when I started.

But what should we do about it? To take a good decision, we firstly must understand their purpose. Learning skills are here to add planning dimension to the skill system, because you have to choose between wasting time and earn a better training efficiency or directly train useful skills to do stuff right now.

On paper, it's a good thing, because EVE has a big part of planning in a lot of things. But when put in practice, rookies are asking to train them ASAP to avoid wasting training time later.
New players mostly come from basic MMO like WoW and have bad habits. For example, they want to have as high as possible attributes, which represent the player power for them. Some of you guys said that you have trained learning skills lately and don't have any issue with them, but most rookies WILL train them ASAP and therefore get bored of EVE during their trial/first month.

But we can't remove them. If you completely remove them, you remove this choice, remove the planning dimension and fustrate many old players ;) All players have spent many months to train them, and they are part of the game, part of the planning stuff of the game, what makes EVE is EVE.



So want can we do?

Answer: Prevent rookies to train them during their first steps in EVE.

Don't let them the choice before they have enough skills to do fun stuff. When they will understand the game mechanics and be able to do many fun things, then, give them the choice back, and then, they will choose to train them now or later.
In other words, build a system to prevent buying learning skills before X days of play from a noobie (maybe 1 month). Give a bonus rate to all training times to the noobies during this first month of play, thereby they will go into fun stuff sooner.

When you release the ability to obtain learning skills, explain them what they are for, and what is the choice they have to do (train now to get more efficiency in skill training, or wait and continue to train useful skills).



That way, the fun would already be reached, they would already be involved in fun things (joining a corp, doing PVP, earning lots of ISK...) and they could clearly understand the purpose of the learning skills and what choice they have to do.

Poluketes
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.02.19 18:23:00 - [296]
 

Sorry for harping on this but no one's addressing it. I realize that pvp players are 10% of the playerbase but since their user-generated activity is Eve's key selling point and they basically advertise Eve for you, you shouldn't be screwing over pvp newbies.

Originally by: Alezra
Bump that PVP Atron up to 145,158 SP if you want to use an MWD which should take about three days with the new skill point acceleration.


Under the existing system a newbie can get into a mwd tackling frigate in 21 hours. 72 or whatever isn't horrible but it's absolutely not an improvement. It also requires grinding missions, which is a waste of time for pvpers. They should be killing players and learning from players, not killing bots and learning from CCP. And it's two more days wasted from the free trial. I doubt CCP plans to extend the trial to make up for it.

The new system sounds good for clueless solo newbies but it makes the first few days mind-numbingly boring for newbies interested in pvp or with friends already in-game. Just bump the starting SP up to 150k fully customizable and make the missions optional, or at least delayable. Someone coming to Eve to pvp wants to pvp, not to run missions for days. Let them pvp day one, decide they like the game, and then grind out the required missions later if they must.

Eve is or was about user freedom. Under the new system there's no user freedom until everyone logs their x hours of compulsory solo missions in the mandatory newbie playpen. That's antithetical to everything that makes Eve special.

Aion Morpheus
Posted - 2009.02.19 18:24:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Guimoman
Edited by: Guimoman on 19/02/2009 18:01:37
Originally by: CCP Fear
Edited by: CCP Fear on 18/02/2009 13:16:29
Originally by: Braaage
You state attributes can be changed once per year, it was every 6 months on Sisi - which is it?

Also are there any plans on increasing the starting ISK since you can't buy any skill with 5,000 ISK you get once started.


Things on Sisi change. Sisi should have the current and correct version up now.

New players get 2 respecs
All other players get 1


Cost is 0 ISK
1 year cooldown timer.


1 year instead of 6 months = fail Sad


It's one year for the purpose of not being included as another skill plan accelerator. I'm positive about more sps/year, but I rather want a way that don't penalyse newer players. If we need to increase the rate of skill points, we need it for new players, not for established players only.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.02.19 18:33:00 - [298]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 19/02/2009 18:44:55
CCP Fear said "The purpose of the intro movie was firstly to replace the old one. It was old, favoring one race over the other etc. We wanted to "spiffy" it. It gives a little insight into what is going to happen in the game, but doesn't go very deep into it. The movies in character sheet is to give more flare, give more info, do it in a movie, make it awesome etc.
But my question remains; are the movies good?"

No they are not good and they are not more spiffy. The new movie is generic and uninteresting and worse of all lacks alot of the background info you get from the old movie. Not only that but the quality of the new movie looks like a pre 2000 FMV introduction it's that poor.



CCP Fear said "Would you like to see more?"
I would like to see more of the background lore not less, more of the history of Eve. An intro should tell you how the game setting got to where it is now. A new player should watch the intro then know the basics of the background and history of the game setting. The new intro removes the history of Eve and how the game setting got to where it is now and doesn't really tell you anything much about the current setting. The new intro as it stands leaves player lost. There is nothing about the Eve gate, nothing explaining the strange galaxy without Earth, nothing about the differences between the races. Its more like a short advert.

I would like to see a more unique intro. The style of the current intro is brilliant and different. The new movie just looks like a short trailer you see on any website. The movie should be like the current one that tells you about Eve and the background of Eve. Not some generic advert that so low quality its shocking pixelated.



CCP Fear said "There is also new text in character creation to reflect changes in RP since long time ago. So there is quite alot of RP in there, the movies are there to enhance that in a different format. I'm perhaps biased in that, but I think they are cool."
The idea is cool but the way its implanted is not. The vids seem to contain a lot less information over the old system. It has been a long time since I used the old system but I am sure it had far more RP info in it.

EDIT: I like the idea of learning skills. It gives people a choice of get a payoff now or later.

maranne marachian
Posted - 2009.02.19 18:45:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: Aion Morpheus
Originally by: Guimoman
Edited by: Guimoman on 19/02/2009 18:01:37
Originally by: CCP Fear
Edited by: CCP Fear on 18/02/2009 13:16:29
Originally by: Braaage
You state attributes can be changed once per year, it was every 6 months on Sisi - which is it?

Also are there any plans on increasing the starting ISK since you can't buy any skill with 5,000 ISK you get once started.


Things on Sisi change. Sisi should have the current and correct version up now.

New players get 2 respecs
All other players get 1


Cost is 0 ISK
1 year cooldown timer.


1 year instead of 6 months = fail Sad


It's one year for the purpose of not being included as another skill plan accelerator. I'm positive about more sps/year, but I rather want a way that don't penalyse newer players. If we need to increase the rate of skill points, we need it for new players, not for established players only.


thing is it makes the respec system pointless in the long term if your achura right now you might aswell ignore it, if your not achura your gonna respec to mini achura 99885 and ignore it from then on.. so whats the actual point of having the system now?

hell you could make it respec when ever you want as long as the ISK hit grows fast enough and it would still mean more variety now and MUCH more after the patch hits. I feel sorry for the new players after the 10th now they'll be joining world of clones

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.02.19 18:48:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear

In my view, learning skills (in what they do) are not bad. They make you faster at training skills.

But could the same thing be achieved (faster training times) through some other mechanic? Could this be decoupled from skills? Could it be an implant, ISK based etc. What I mean is, is the way it is now good enough to keep, or should it be looked into to find a way where this can be beneficial to all, without sacrificing time for players which could be spent on training useful skills?




CCP Fear: It makes me very sad Sad that I need to post in limegreen caps to get noticed/feedback from you, but I posted my initial suggestion "MAX ALL LEARNING SKILLS" you notice and quoted, then I later post an idea of how to achieve similar faster training times with a different mechanic, THEN you post asking if anyone has a mechanic for faster training times (as above)... I'm at a loss.

Please can I have feedback on that idea? Or even just an "it was red", because clearly
this is invisible. Thank you. Wink


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