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blankseplocked Should bubbles work wherever they are in the warp-path?
 
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The Tzar
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.02.17 13:35:00 - [1]
 

Before unravelling the mechanics of bubbles I originally thought that no matter where on a line A-B, where a ships warps from A-B, the warping ship would be pulled out.

Bubbles of course only currently pull you out of warp if the end point of your warp is within about 100km of said bubble. This 100km mark seems to vary somewhat depending on the grid however...

I vote for bubbles to pull you out of warp WHEREVER in your flight path they might fall. This would mean more carebear tears and more fights away from gates. Winner!

Thoughts?


Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.02.17 15:14:00 - [2]
 

/signed

However, this would have to be thought through carefully to ensure balance.

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2009.02.17 15:33:00 - [3]
 

The only reason I can think of that meant CCP didn't implement this in the first place (why not? it wouldn't be game breaking!) would be anchoring bubbles in highsec space. Perhaps part of the mechanic that prevents them from being anchored is tied to the proximity of objects in space?

Anyway, would love to see this.
/signed

Korerin Mayul
Amarr
Posted - 2009.02.17 15:55:00 - [4]
 

hemmm, i dont think the database would like having to load assets in warp... at the moment, warp seems to be 'fire and forget' in that all the database needs to know is the start point and end point, and it can then send the client all the information on the assets it needs to render them properly.

im not sure i would be comfortable increassing the load on the database for somthing which may nark a lot of seasoned pvpers.


Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2009.02.17 15:59:00 - [5]
 

Quote:
hemmm, i dont think the database would like having to load assets in warp... at the moment, warp seems to be 'fire and forget' in that all the database needs to know is the start point and end point, and it can then send the client all the information on the assets it needs to render them properly.

im not sure i would be comfortable increassing the load on the database for somthing which may nark a lot of seasoned pvpers.


I can see your point, but I'd be surprised if the server didn't already check a few things in warp to ensure that people couldn't exploit this mechanic to move around more quickly. If it's doing the checks already, this would be easy enough to implement.

Could be right though, I suspect there's a technical reason for not having this feature already.

AshtarDJ
Filthy Scum
Scum Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.17 16:12:00 - [6]
 

I think Yes! But... only HICs and interdictor bubbles. Otherwise it can easily be exploited by alliances anchoring 20 small bubbles in the path between 2 gates that lead to their home systems. It can still be done by putting 20 dictors there, but it will at least require 20 dedicated dictor pilots to be there in "person" and do it.

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2009.02.17 16:17:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: AshtarDJ
I think Yes! But... only HICs and interdictor bubbles. Otherwise it can easily be exploited by alliances anchoring 20 small bubbles in the path between 2 gates that lead to their home systems. It can still be done by putting 20 dictors there, but it will at least require 20 dedicated dictor pilots to be there in "person" and do it.


...or one regular interdictor pilot and an extensive set of mid warp bookmarks?

AshtarDJ
Filthy Scum
Scum Alliance
Posted - 2009.02.17 16:21:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
...or one regular interdictor pilot and an extensive set of mid warp bookmarks?

I agree... very annoying, but in my opinion still not an exploit since it requires someone (small group of players) to actually be there and do the job of delaying the enemy fleet. It would require a lot of timing too. Different from just leaving a bunch of anchored bubbles in space.

Dray
Caldari
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2009.02.17 16:42:00 - [9]
 

I remember trying this out when bubbles first became available and was disappointed it didnt work, but I think it would make them a little over powered especially in relation to fleets trying to move fast against a defending force.

It would tip the balance a little to far in the defenders favour, who with decent planning should be in a strong position to start with.

Gantor Tesla
Amarr
Dead Parrot Inc.
Posted - 2009.02.17 17:01:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: AshtarDJ
I think Yes! But... only HICs and interdictor bubbles. Otherwise it can easily be exploited by alliances anchoring 20 small bubbles in the path between 2 gates that lead to their home systems. It can still be done by putting 20 dictors there, but it will at least require 20 dedicated dictor pilots to be there in "person" and do it.


This.

/signed

Ma'kal
The Imperial Commonwealth
E.Y
Posted - 2009.02.17 17:41:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Ma''kal on 17/02/2009 17:42:19

This is a very interesting idea and would be a fun mechanice. However there would be a big problem to this.

Because people not wanted to get their ship blown up they would make book mark safe points in every system to avoid being pulled out of warp between every known system. This would make a load on the server similuarly before jump to zero.

Of course this would make it easy to catch people warping afk but who really does that in low sec/ 0.0? It could help you catch people in high sec but you would have to declare war on them so you might as well set up a gate camp and save the book mark trouble.

It is a good idea, but there is just a too easy way around it that would cause server to cry.

Edit: Fixed a few errors

MacMasters
Posted - 2009.02.17 19:14:00 - [12]
 

i can see a bubble pulling someone out of warp but they fly right off the grid while slowing from warp speed. *cue bloopers sound effects*

Erika Bronz
Gallente
The Wyld Hunt
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.02.17 19:18:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: The Tzar
Before unravelling the mechanics of bubbles I originally thought that no matter where on a line A-B, where a ships warps from A-B, the warping ship would be pulled out.

Bubbles of course only currently pull you out of warp if the end point of your warp is within about 100km of said bubble. This 100km mark seems to vary somewhat depending on the grid however...

I vote for bubbles to pull you out of warp WHEREVER in your flight path they might fall. This would mean more carebear tears and more fights away from gates. Winner!

Thoughts?




Thumbs up for that one YARRRR!!

Aethrwolf
Caldari
Podrratu
Posted - 2009.02.18 18:21:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: MacMasters
i can see a bubble pulling someone out of warp but they fly right off the grid while slowing from warp speed. *cue bloopers sound effects*


Not necessarily a bad thing.. just have to figure out approx. how far a ship will travel after getting pulled out of warp and set up the rest of the ambush in that area.. another bubble and a gang. Just means that sometimes it would work and sometimes the target would just get slowed down a bit.

Shaka Quatuic
Posted - 2009.02.18 20:17:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Shaka Quatuic on 18/02/2009 20:22:33
Edited by: Shaka Quatuic on 18/02/2009 20:21:30
Edited by: Shaka Quatuic on 18/02/2009 20:17:35
Originally by: Aethrwolf
Originally by: MacMasters
i can see a bubble pulling someone out of warp but they fly right off the grid while slowing from warp speed. *cue bloopers sound effects*


Not necessarily a bad thing.. just have to figure out approx. how far a ship will travel after getting pulled out of warp and set up the rest of the ambush in that area.. another bubble and a gang. Just means that sometimes it would work and sometimes the target would just get slowed down a bit.


as I see it (and yes I love the idea) this shouldnt cause much database issues at all. right now, the DB checks for 2 things
  1. is the warping ship within a bubble?

  2. is the warp exit within 100km of a bubble?


actually, it is a bit more complex than that, as a warp path that is not aligned to the bubble will not be pulled to the bubble ie. the warp vector has to both intersect the bubble and the exit must be within 100km of it. it shouldn't be difficult to simplify that DB check to something like 'does the warp path cross a bubble?' and if that check = true then just change the exit to the bubble location. I would also make this something that only large bubbles and destroyer interdictors can do, and give them increases in bubble size when anchored away from gates and other celestial objects (not on the same grid). the reason I dont like the idea of letting HICs do this is simply because of the fact that they can move while bubbling - it makes the DB checks problematic.

there would be no need for any kind of effects like flying off the bubble grid. the exit moves.

as I see it this would be a job for destroyer interdictors and large bubbles only. maybe a capital interdictor if we ever get one. ^^

come to think of it, I actually like the idea of being able to 'mine' systems with bubbles this way. would definitely need to implement some ability to warp any arbitrary distance along any desired vector though, and not be beholden to nav fixes.

Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2009.02.18 21:14:00 - [16]
 

Quote:
Because people not wanted to get their ship blown up they would make book mark safe points in every system to avoid being pulled out of warp between every known system. This would make a load on the server similuarly before jump to zero.



This is a very good point; if bubbles did pull people out of mid warps, it'd become essential to own sets of bookmarks to warp you around the normal flight paths and so avoid any potential off gate camps.

Shame.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.02.18 21:16:00 - [17]
 

It would lead to 0.0 becoming a no-fly zone if bubbles could do that. Take a cruiser and drop small all over the damn place, ultimate griefing tool.

Better to make it a specialised ship, akin to the Star Wars Interdictors .. mobile black hole generators powerful enough to disrupt an ongoing warp.
A Super-heavy Interdictor if you will, battleship class (or larger even) with little to no offensive capabilities but with above average defence - like the current HICs

A gravity well of that size would be visible on overview (similar to the space/time disruption of cynos), but you would not be able to warp to it, except by warping to the object behind it.

You could effectively shut down gate-to-gate warps this way, and force pilots to either make an attempt or use planets/belts as mid-points, giving you that coveted fight away from gates/stations.

Scenario:
- Deploy Super-HIC on highway.
- Enemy enters system and sees the black-hole on overview.
- Enemy pats self on back and giggles as he warps to planet off to the side.
- Enemy ****s pants as he gets stuck in a bubble at planet with Interceptor waiting.

testalus rima
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.02.18 21:43:00 - [18]
 

if you see it physically...

warp speed at 1 AU -> 299.792.458m/s
with a bubble size -> 24.000m

you will pass through a bubble within 0.0000801s

a bubble is a kind of warp disruptor it is disrupting the warp drive for 8.01^-5s only. then it is working again... a bubble is not a webbing system which could catch ship....

by the way we warp even through ships, stations or planets! so before stopping at bubbles we should warp along splines around orbital objects according to our ship speed and mass.

but this would cause DB load... ;)

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2009.02.19 01:15:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Che Biko on 19/02/2009 01:17:00
Originally by: testalus rima
if you see it physically...

warp speed at 1 AU -> 299.792.458m/s
with a bubble size -> 24.000m

you will pass through a bubble within 0.0000801s


The precise value of the AU is currently accepted as 149,597,870,691 6 metres[1] (nearly 150 million kilometres or 93 million miles).

So the time you take to pass through it will actually be around 1.6e-7 s which is even a lot shorter.

Edit: Unless of course CCP uses a different AU.

testalus rima
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.02.19 09:51:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: testalus rima on 19/02/2009 09:59:40
Originally by: Che Biko
Edited by: Che Biko on 19/02/2009 01:17:00
Originally by: testalus rima
if you see it physically...

warp speed at 1 AU -> 299.792.458m/s
with a bubble size -> 24.000m

you will pass through a bubble within 0.0000801s


The precise value of the AU is currently accepted as 149,597,870,691 6 metres[1] (nearly 150 million kilometres or 93 million miles).

So the time you take to pass through it will actually be around 1.6e-7 s which is even a lot shorter.

Edit: Unless of course CCP uses a different AU.


RIGHT!!! was mixing up with Ls - lightsec :( IDIOT ME

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2009.02.19 10:33:00 - [21]
 

Bubbles seem to catch you only when your trajectory in their grid passes through...

It looks like it avoids several issues :
-complex full trajectory calculations (I guess it avoids calculating anything else than the start grid and the exit grid, how many grids are there in an AU?)
-warp exit slowdown calculations being modified (how to explain you change from full speed to stop in the middle of the warp, wouldn't the ship disintegrate??)

And for the bubbles not attracting you more than 100km on average, well, you have to go through the bubble in the arriving grid to have something happening, chances are that usually by more than 100km, you'll just miss the bubble. Blockade runners (no, not the ships, the people that escape blockades) know that you can side warp to a celestial and warp in again or warp to off grid BM behind the gate grid to get safely there from a totally different other direction.

testalus rima
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.02.19 11:11:00 - [22]
 

i guess here is sth mixed up!
a warp 'engine' disruptor is just turning off or prevent the warp drive from turning on. a bubble put in warping line would just turning off the engine for a (really) short amount of time. after you pass it would work again...
if you want to 'catch' sth on its way you would need a webber...so it should be a 'web' bubble then! but as said before if you would stop a ship flying with 1 au/s within 24.000m only you will get a burning hot piece of plasma...not easy to loot

Edouard Creeslar
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.02.19 13:32:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: The Tzar
Before unravelling the mechanics of bubbles I originally thought that no matter where on a line A-B, where a ships warps from A-B, the warping ship would be pulled out.

Bubbles of course only currently pull you out of warp if the end point of your warp is within about 100km of said bubble. This 100km mark seems to vary somewhat depending on the grid however...

I vote for bubbles to pull you out of warp WHEREVER in your flight path they might fall. This would mean more carebear tears and more fights away from gates. Winner!

Thoughts?




If we base this on the game fiction I can see this working but not in the way you envision. Since the ship is fully in warp the speed is VERY high, more than enough to transverse the bubble in a millisecond. With this in mind I can see the bubble causing a destabilzation of the warp field but this means a more random drop and typically well beyond the bubble. The 100K system works because the warp field is already destabilizing and the ship is drastically slwoer than during full flight.

The idea then would be that if you pass through a warp bubble in your flight path it would cause the ship to drop from warp somewhere between the bubble and the destination, likely near midway for sake of ease of calculations.


 

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