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EW jammer vs ships sensor strength

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Author	Topic
CC Menow	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:19:00 - [1] Is there an equation to figure out what chance a Jammer has on a ship with specific amount of strength? I.E. ships chances to jam with an 9.1 strength jammer against a ship with a 31 strength resist to jamming?
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2009.01.16 02:10:00 - [2] (ecmstrength / sensorstrength) = chance to jam (9.1 / 31) = .29 = 29%
ViolenTUK Gallente Demolition Men	Posted - 2009.01.16 03:33:00 - [3] Falcon = You will be jammed.
Vampasha The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:53:00 - [4] ECCM = You won't be jammed - DOH! Originally by: ViolenTUK Falcon = You will be jammed.
ViolenTUK Gallente Demolition Men	Posted - 2009.01.16 22:31:00 - [5] Originally by: Vampasha ECCM = You won't be jammed - DOH! Originally by: ViolenTUK Falcon = You will be jammed. ECCM + Falcon = You will STILL be jammed - DOH!
Vietone Gallente Caldari Securities Exchange Corporation Miners Rebellion	Posted - 2009.01.17 02:40:00 - [6] Originally by: ViolenTUK Originally by: Vampasha ECCM = You won't be jammed - DOH! Originally by: ViolenTUK Falcon = You will be jammed. ECCM + Falcon = You will STILL be jammed - DOH! using an ECCM ensures that instead of just using 1-2 ECM on you, he/she will have to use 3-4 to get a single jam cycle in. Given that a Falcon with a Tech 2 ECCM is insanely hard to jam unless you have all caldari jammers and not to mention if they equip 2 ECCM modules, you can forget getting a jam cycle in.
ViolenTUK Gallente Demolition Men	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Vietone using an ECCM ensures that instead of just using 1-2 ECM on you, he/she will have to use 3-4 to get a single jam cycle in. I wish that were so. The reality is that if you fit an ECCM you are still going to be perma jammed by a Falcon typicaly using only one ECM on you.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:18:00 - [8] Originally by: ViolenTUK I wish that were so. The reality is that if you fit an ECCM you are still going to be perma jammed by a Falcon typicaly using only one ECM on you. If you are in a frigate.
ViolenTUK Gallente Demolition Men	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Lilith Velkor If you are in a frigate. Or any other ship.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:48:00 - [10] Originally by: ViolenTUK Originally by: Lilith Velkor If you are in a frigate. Or any other ship. One amarr racial on falcon vs curse has the curse jammed approx. 54 out of 120 seconds. Thats hardly permajammed.
Mickey Simon Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:51:00 - [11] Originally by: ViolenTUK Originally by: Lilith Velkor If you are in a frigate. Or any other ship. Maybe you need to run the numbers again, or participate in some PvP with falcons involved on the other side. I can assure you it's not the case. ECCM's wonderful against falcons (especially combined with long ranges ammo and guns), and a pain in the ass if you're flying the falcon.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:39:00 - [12] Originally by: ViolenTUK Originally by: Lilith Velkor If you are in a frigate. Or any other ship. I've flown falcons and while I'd agree that they are fairly overpowered with their 200km+ range, one jammer is not enough to be permajammed unless you're in a frigate. I think this misconception arises from the fact you can never tell how many jammers are running on you. A good falcon pilot will pick vital targets and use as many jammers as needed to get them jammed. In most cases, I've needed 2-3 of the correct racial jammers to get a heavy target jammed and that's made worse by them using ECCM. The big gripe I have with the falcon is that it's better in all practical ways than the Rook and I don't think that should be the case. Not only does it have the ability to spy on a fleet, get into position prior to fleet attack and also to decloak and launch a surprise jam but it also has the same number of mid slots and the same bonuses to ECM. And lord knows the Rook (as a "Combat Recon") is not viable as a combat ship. You can get more DPS out of a destroyer and to get in range to use even heavy launchers it compromises its primary ECM role. You could argue that with 5 launchers the rook is better equipped to take on enemy tacklers heading for it but in a real fleet scenario ECM ships fly aligned and warp out if too many people approach. They also have the option of jamming tacklers as small ships are very succeptable to ECM. If one of these ships is supposed to be close range, they shouldn't both have long range options. The Rook has a higher base targeting range but this isn't a benefit because both the Rook and the Falcon need one sensor booster to target at over 200km. And its faster targeting speed isn't a benefit because in a fleet targeting speed is much less of a factor in lock time than lag, target selection decision-making time and reaction times. Both of these ships have identical roles and purposes but one is just plain better for it (the Falcon). What I'd like to see is the Rook and Falcon being given different ECM roles. The Falcon would remain an ambush jammer but wouldn't have the same role in fleets and the Rook would take over the fleet role. This could be achieved by swapping the Falcon's 20% optimal range per level bonus for another 10% strength per levle bonus, thereby forcing it into fleet sniper range. Its new feasible maximum range would end up at about 110km. The ship would be even better than current if used in an ambush capacity (due to higher jam strength) and if the pilot's good he could use it in fleets and stay alive but the Rook would be the clear ECM ship in fleets.
oodin North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: ViolenTUK Originally by: Lilith Velkor If you are in a frigate. Or any other ship. I've flown falcons and while I'd agree that they are fairly overpowered with their 200km+ range, one jammer is not enough to be permajammed unless you're in a frigate. I think this misconception arises from the fact you can never tell how many jammers are running on you. A good falcon pilot will pick vital targets and use as many jammers as needed to get them jammed. In most cases, I've needed 2-3 of the correct racial jammers to get a heavy target jammed and that's made worse by them using ECCM. The big gripe I have with the falcon is that it's better in all practical ways than the Rook and I don't think that should be the case. Not only does it have the ability to spy on a fleet, get into position prior to fleet attack and also to decloak and launch a surprise jam but it also has the same number of mid slots and the same bonuses to ECM. And lord knows the Rook (as a "Combat Recon") is not viable as a combat ship. You can get more DPS out of a destroyer and to get in range to use even heavy launchers it compromises its primary ECM role. You could argue that with 5 launchers the rook is better equipped to take on enemy tacklers heading for it but in a real fleet scenario ECM ships fly aligned and warp out if too many people approach. They also have the option of jamming tacklers as small ships are very succeptable to ECM. If one of these ships is supposed to be close range, they shouldn't both have long range options. The Rook has a higher base targeting range but this isn't a benefit because both the Rook and the Falcon need one sensor booster to target at over 200km. And its faster targeting speed isn't a benefit because in a fleet targeting speed is much less of a factor in lock time than lag, target selection decision-making time and reaction times. Both of these ships have identical roles and purposes but one is just plain better for it (the Falcon). What I'd like to see is the Rook and Falcon being given different ECM roles. The Falcon would remain an ambush jammer but wouldn't have the same role in fleets and the Rook would take over the fleet role. This could be achieved by swapping the Falcon's 20% optimal range per level bonus for another 10% strength per levle bonus, thereby forcing it into fleet sniper range. Its new feasible maximum range would end up at about 110km. The ship would be even better than current if used in an ambush capacity (due to higher jam strength) and if the pilot's good he could use it in fleets and stay alive but the Rook would be the clear ECM ship in fleets. signed
Raimo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:38:00 - [14] Edited by: Raimo on 17/01/2009 12:39:48 Confirming that ECCM works, especially overloaded. Tho flying Gallente blasterboats fitting one is a PITA as is having to fit one nearly always. Originally by: oodin signed Signed as well, except don't boost Falcon jam strength fer chrissakes. Give it a shield booster comedy bonus or something.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2009.01.17 13:03:00 - [15] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 17/01/2009 13:10:50 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 17/01/2009 13:04:00 Originally by: Nyphur The big gripe I have with the falcon is that it's better in all practical ways than the Rook and I don't think that should be the case. One thing the Rook can be better than the falcon is using it as a defensive ship in ecm squads, i.e. have the Rook fit disruptor + multispecs and handle incoming ceptors and hacs. I've had some guy do this to my vaga once and I can say it was surprisingly effective, I had to run from his point range and bail even while his falcon buddy went on jamming without caring for me Still boosting the falcons ecm strength bonus to 20%/lvl was rather strange in the first place imo, depending how you fit you can squeeze an extra jammer on the Rook but meh. [Rook, New Setup 1] Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
ViolenTUK Gallente Demolition Men	Posted - 2009.01.17 13:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Mickey Simon Maybe you need to run the numbers again, or participate in some PvP with falcons involved on the other side. I can assure you it's not the case. The numbers may well agree with you but i have participated in many fights with falcons and you are virtualy certain to be jammed with one racial jammer. Thats the reality.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2009.01.17 13:28:00 - [17] Originally by: ViolenTUK Originally by: Mickey Simon Maybe you need to run the numbers again, or participate in some PvP with falcons involved on the other side. I can assure you it's not the case. The numbers may well agree with you but i have participated in many fights with falcons and you are virtualy certain to be jammed with one racial jammer. Thats the reality. How creative your troll is. Cmon put some effort into it, we want tears and ragequits
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.17 14:41:00 - [18] Edited by: Nyphur on 17/01/2009 14:42:20 Originally by: Raimo Signed as well, except don't boost Falcon jam strength fer chrissakes. Give it a shield booster comedy bonus or something. Personally I'd rather it just lose the optimal bonus altogether and get nothing in return. The cloaking ability is a massive advantage as it is. Originally by: Lilith Velkor One thing the Rook can be better than the falcon is using it as a defensive ship in ecm squads, i.e. have the Rook fit disruptor + multispecs and handle incoming ceptors and hacs. My main gripe with using a Rook for anti-tackler detail is that it's not a ton better than a Blackbird for that purpose. If you're in the firing line in an EW ship, you might as well use the cheaper alternative: [Blackbird, Lilith] Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Particle Dispersion Augmentor I Particle Dispersion Augmentor I [empty rig slot] It targets a bit slower, has lower DPS (like that really matters in an EW ship), has slightly lower jam strength and 1/3 the effective HP of a Rook but 16k effective hitpoints aren't going to save a Rook. I'm also not sure what the warp disruptor is supposed to achieve against a tackler, wouldn't an extra jammer be more useful or an ECCM or sensor booster? Is the plan to jam, scram and attack the tackler to drive him off? Couldn't gangmates attack him instead or assign some Warrior IIs to you instead?
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta	Posted - 2009.01.17 19:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Raimo Edited by: Raimo on 17/01/2009 12:39:48 Confirming that ECCM works, especially overloaded. Tho flying Gallente blasterboats fitting one is a PITA as is having to fit one nearly always. Originally by: oodin signed Signed as well, except don't boost Falcon jam strength fer chrissakes. Give it a shield booster comedy bonus or something. From what I have read from falcon pilots is that they are really really sad they "can't solo anything". To fix this the optimal bonus could be switched for a damage bonus and a few mids transferred to turret/launcher slots and some drones. Then they could wtfcantlockbackpwn people in asteroid belts.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.17 20:35:00 - [20] Originally by: ViolenTUK Originally by: Vietone using an ECCM ensures that instead of just using 1-2 ECM on you, he/she will have to use 3-4 to get a single jam cycle in. I wish that were so. The reality is that if you fit an ECCM you are still going to be perma jammed by a Falcon typicaly using only one ECM on you. That is what is know as a lie or deliberate untruth.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.17 20:36:00 - [21] Originally by: Dibsi Dei From what I have read from falcon pilots is that they are really really sad they "can't solo anything". To fix this the optimal bonus could be switched for a damage bonus and a few mids transferred to turret/launcher slots and some drones. Then they could wtfcantlockbackpwn people in asteroid belts. The Falcon is the force recon, the Rook is the combat recon. Anyone annoyed that they can't solo pvp in a falcon shouldn't really be flying one. It's not meant to be a solo pvp ship, it's meant to be a top of the line ECM platform and recon vessel. And even with the Rook's combat bonuses that ship is still useless as a combat ship so I don't really see what giving the falcon combat bonuses will do. I think it's fine that the race who specialises in EW has two recons specialised in ECM but it's kind of sad that both of they're essentially the same ship with the exact same role except one can fit a covops cloak.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2009.01.17 22:49:00 - [22] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 17/01/2009 23:02:13 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 17/01/2009 23:00:37 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 17/01/2009 22:59:03 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 17/01/2009 22:50:59 Originally by: Nyphur I'm also not sure what the warp disruptor is supposed to achieve against a tackler, wouldn't an extra jammer be more useful or an ECCM or sensor booster? Is the plan to jam, scram and attack the tackler to drive him off? Couldn't gangmates attack him instead or assign some Warrior IIs to you instead? It can have a dramatic effect on the morale of the attacker, running up on something that you think is easy prey and will run off or get killed, but suddenly finding yourself scrambled, jammed and eating missiles is gonna be kind of a wtf moment that can confuse you a bit, more so if you have to handle sentry aggro. Not saying it is the best way, just something the Rook can do, and it does way better than the blackbird can, with the limited amount of multispecs besides tackle and tank their strength is all the more important. Edit: 3 multispecs will realiably take care of a vagabond for as long as you need, fit LSE + scram + web + ab and you can give him a run for his money when he tries to approach and maximize dps before eating a jam cycle. Still kind of a moot point is it has so low dps if fitted for combat, imo extend its bonus to apply to HAMs too and give it a bit more grid so you can at least fit a LSE + MWD and a full rack of HAMs without any RCU shenanigans. Or even enough grid for t2 HML Ecm for tank is only so good until someone pops drones...
Palm Siwa	Posted - 2009.01.18 18:20:00 - [23] one question, if i may: i do understand the main formula: (ecmstrength / sensorstrength) = chance to jam but how do stacking penalties and bonuses apply? for example a falcon with lvl 4 of all jammer affecting skills, 3 signal distortion amplifier 2's and a racial T2 jammer. what's the ecm strength then? thanks ps
Ezael Whiteshadow Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.01.19 03:07:00 - [24] Originally by: ViolenTUK Originally by: Vietone using an ECCM ensures that instead of just using 1-2 ECM on you, he/she will have to use 3-4 to get a single jam cycle in. I wish that were so. The reality is that if you fit an ECCM you are still going to be perma jammed by a Falcon typicaly using only one ECM on you. You clearly don't know how Falcons work if you think a Falcon can 'perma-jam' anything that is using ECCM.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2009.01.19 09:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Nyphur I've flown falcons and while I'd agree that they are fairly overpowered with their 200km+ range, one jammer is not enough to be permajammed unless you're in a frigate. I think this misconception arises from the fact you can never tell how many jammers are running on you. A good falcon pilot will pick vital targets and use as many jammers as needed to get them jammed. In most cases, I've needed 2-3 of the correct racial jammers to get a heavy target jammed and that's made worse by them using ECCM. Not gonna comment on your Rook thoughts/suggestions as I only fly the Falcon (that should tell some about the Rook anyway I guess). But your first section is spot on.

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