| Author |
Topic |
Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance |
Posted - 2009.01.13 19:49:00 - [ 1]
We all know minmatar are gimped (with the exception of a few ships, vaga Im looking at you...), and there are numerous reasons for this, chief among them (in my mind anyway) is the split weapon systems(and the fact that projectile weapons are considered substandard in many ways, though I disagree). In order for minmatar pilots to be able to boost their dps(on a split weapon system setup) they have to fit two separate modules in order to get the same level of benefit that most other ships enjoy from one.
The solution? A minmatar-only module (as in it would only be fitable to minnie ships, and maybe some of those cross-breed faction ships if CCP sees fit), I call it the "Fire Control System" or "Weapon Control System." If you haven't guessed already, it's a module that provides the dps bonuses to both projectile and missile weapons systems simultaneously (perhaps with the capability to fit scripts to focus on one over the other).
I'm not going to post specific numbers here, as that will lead to much debate (and flaming, you crazy eve-players you...), but I'm thinking it would provide the relevant bonuses of both the Ballistic Control System and Gyrostabilizers at a rate of 75% equivalent meta level (so as to not be overpowered) for approx. 25% fitting cost increase. It doesn't sound quite that overpowered to me, and of course will need balancing. |
Rudolf Miller
Dawn of a new Empire
The Initiative. |
Posted - 2009.01.14 01:22:00 - [ 2]
What about caldari and the rail/missile systems?
Amarr and gallente are immune to this, but not caldari |
Emporors Champian |
Posted - 2009.01.14 01:44:00 - [ 3]
i was hoping you say to gyro modual they would add a third bonus to tracking
so a gyro get
+tracking
+ROF
+damage
this i think will also work well |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries |
Posted - 2009.01.14 02:39:00 - [ 4]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 14/01/2009 02:46:24
How about making capacitor and active tanking more important again?
Minmatar win.
-edit-
What I'm trying to say is that currently Minmatar strong points are not very popular, or valuable.
Speed is a touchy subject. But capless weapons could be emphasized a bit.
As always I think that a couple of small changes would be better than one big re-design. |
Red Flag |
Posted - 2009.01.14 02:47:00 - [ 5]
Edited by: Red Flag on 14/01/2009 02:51:37
Every faction is "gimped" by the way you define "gimped".
I have alts/toons in every faction and if I had to pick a faction that is the most 'gimped', I would say it's Amarr. And yet, Amarr are still able to hold their own.
Each faction has their strengths and weaknesses. Taking away a weakness of a faction is like taking away the strength in another.
=-=-=-=
Minmatar is the race of my first and primary character, and the faction I've choose for most of my alts. I choose them the most often because they are anything but gimped.
=-=-=-=
As far as the factions go, Eve is the most balanced it has ever been.
Eve still has a lot of things I feel need to be improved, "Faction Balance" is not one of them right now. |
Andreya
Red Federation
|
Posted - 2009.01.14 03:11:00 - [ 6]
split weapons are the worste idea known to man :S
ships that suffer:
stiletto need 3 turrets
so does hyena
claw needs 4th turret like its twin the crusader
muninn/rupture
phoon
pest and hurricane need 7th turrets
cyclone (never even bothered looking at this ship) |
Andreya
Red Federation
|
Posted - 2009.01.14 03:15:00 - [ 7]
also.. boost damage of artillery by 100% and increase ROF time by 80% and lower tracking by 25%
meaning, arties will have double the alpha, 15-20% more dps (dont wanna bother with the math) and crappy tracking, meaning the snipers will have more use of people doing the tackling AND target painters
this here itself will make minmatar long range ships cool again, without tipping the balance too much (tweak the numbers if you must)
Artillery traditionally have always been inaccurate, long range, slow refiring, high damage weapons.... |
Andreya
Red Federation
|
Posted - 2009.01.14 03:22:00 - [ 8]
and what do minmatar do better then other races? in general not a whole lot. amarr tank much better than the others caldari have superior range gallante do stupid amounts of dps minmatar? they are faster? well... ships larger than cruisers cant really use speed as a tactic really, and their smaller ships arent really much faster compared to other ships in their class. for example the jaguar/rifter vaga/stabber and slepneir are really the ONLY ships who benefit from the minmatar speed 'myth' the stiletto is slow, the claw is NOT the fastest inty! (WTF  ) sabre? whomever thought sabres have always been overpowered need a smack to the head. the heretic was only ever 5% slower, yet can do fulldamage of any racial dps at much longer range than a sabre. an experianced heretic pilot doesnt fear a sabre. o yea and guess what. the Eris is the fastest dictor when fitted for speed (which most old school dictor pilots would fit for) all your sabre whines were just myths, get over it |
Andreya
Red Federation
|
Posted - 2009.01.14 03:28:00 - [ 9]
o yea. drop a low slot on the vaga and switch it to a med slot.
whats the reasoning for BOTH HACs having armour tanking layouts. especialy with those failsauce armour resist bonus's
|
Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards |
Posted - 2009.01.14 05:23:00 - [ 10]
Give them all another rig slot! |
Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance |
Posted - 2009.01.14 13:51:00 - [ 11]
YES! Another rig slot (and more calibration while we're at it!) What a wonderfully matar solution! |
Uncle Smokey |
Posted - 2009.01.14 16:18:00 - [ 12]
There will never be things like "minmatar-only modules", directly imbalanced modules (well except for TC's, TE's and TL's) or any weird solutions like that.
I would'nt say minmatar is that bad, but i have to agree there are some really weird design features. And some of these features make many ships very poor competitors to other races options. I'd guess even the designers have been rather confused about what to do with minmatar.
How about ideas how to tweak the ships, weapon systems and roles by normal attribute tweaks? |
Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari
Drusus Mercenaries
Sylph Alliance |
Posted - 2009.01.14 17:52:00 - [ 13]
Don't really see how it's possible to fix minnie ships through attribute tweaks, as most of their problems are in no way shape or form related to attributes. |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries |
Posted - 2009.01.14 19:05:00 - [ 14]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 14/01/2009 19:35:21 Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
Don't really see how it's possible to fix minnie ships through attribute tweaks, as most of their problems are in no way shape or form related to attributes.
That's the beauty of balance. If something is missing somewhere, you can balance it by adding something, somewhere else. -edit- However, I have a small idea regarding Minmatar battleships, which are in fact quite often at the center of attention. I've read somewhere that Minmatar BS are supposed to have more shield hp than armor hp. I don't think that makes sense, since Minmatar ships are supposed to be versatile. What would make more sense than having all three options? Typhoon: more armor than shield -> switch armor and shield hp Tempest: balanced armor and shield -> 6641/6641 Maelstrom: more shield than armor -> no change Not a big change, but one that gives a bit of flavor to the mix. On a side note, ever noticed that a Raven has both more armor and shield hp than a Tempest? When it comes to the Maelstrom I think exchanging the RoF with a simple 5% damage bonus would be an interesting option. This would give the Maelstrom a monstrous alpha strike, at the cost of overall dps. Basically it's up to the Minmatar crowd out there as to what they'd prefer. It would give the Minies a very viable fleet battleship and free the Tempest for skirmish duty. |
Uncle Smokey |
Posted - 2009.01.14 19:26:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
Don't really see how it's possible to fix minnie ships through attribute tweaks,
But in original post you suggested a module that would adjust these same attributes. Only few of minmatar ships are on split weapons bonus. I dont like split weapons system either, though. It does'nt really allow that much of tactical configurability, which imo is the king feat in minmatar design, in exchange for crippling the raw ability so severely that it is hard to put in practice any more. Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
as most of their problems are in no way shape or form related to attributes.
What exactly are they related then? My opinion is that the roles of several minmatar ships are "lost" somewhere by time and adjustments to other aspects of the game. Rifter is a great example where you can utilize your versatility, and have the speed to utilize it. You pay with king-DPS and wide range of minor features, but your ship is still extremely competitive, if used right. To make it short, Rupture and Vagabond have very much the same situation: They have a king-feat and they have a window to utilize it in effective way, covering the inherent weaknesses. Even typhoon and cane have some of this, but naturally they lack in the king-speed for their size. These ships represent well of what i consider flying minmatar. Every race has a king-feat or two, minmatar has (on these ships) versatility and speed to utilize it. Now then, take ships that are generally concidered crappy minmatar ships. I think the problem in these ships is that they have the same inherent weaknesses, just like those generally considered strong ships, but MUCH smaller window to utilize their inherent strengths. For example claw, you have the full spectrum of racial weaknesses, not much of customizability and other ceptors could be even faster than you, possessing their king-strengths nevertheless. So, clarifying the intended roles of these ships and weapon systems and adjusting them accordingly to the role and other race's variants is the way to go. That is how the game has evolved so far in any case. Its just slow as hell. Lacking dps and tank is not an issue, i even like it, if i have something reasonable i can fight with, too. But having a ship that is outrun, out-tanked, outdamaged, easily tracked and outranged, and bested in its role by standard, or even in most of this... well, its ****. QR was great, since it brought many ships of other races close to the same problem, emphasizing the roles of different ships and weapon systems by both their strengths and weaknesses (well, i havent noticed this on my amarr ships yet, but anyway) |
Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y |
Posted - 2009.01.14 19:37:00 - [ 16]
imo keep the split weapon systems but add bonuses to both weapon systems to the ship.
say a rupture gets 6 high slots and 5/5 turret/launcher hardpoints. Its bonuses would be 5% damage to med projectiles and 7,5% tracking and 5% missile ROF + 5% missile explosion velocity ..
Typhoon has 8 high slots and also gets 5/5 turret/launcher hardpoints with 5% large projectile ROF and 7,5% tracking in addition to 5% siege and cruise ROF and ... some other missile bonus.
or something (but different from the caldari long range missile spec)
This means you have a dual weapon system that works ... and all your weapons are effective. You'll need to double skill of course to put it to full use... |
P'uck |
Posted - 2009.01.14 19:50:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth
The solution? A minmatar-only module (as in it would only be fitable to minnie ships, and maybe some of those cross-breed faction ships if CCP sees fit), I call it the "Fire Control System" or "Weapon Control System." If you haven't guessed already, it's a module that provides the dps bonuses to both projectile and missile weapons systems simultaneously (perhaps with the capability to fit scripts to focus on one over the other).
We have such a module, it's called a target painter. And it just got better... Some minmatar ships might have some troubles, split weapon systems is not one of them. |
Uncle Smokey |
Posted - 2009.01.14 20:04:00 - [ 18]
Not on typhoon, atleast. |
All Channels
Features and Ideas Discussion
