| Author |
Topic |
Kazuma Saruwatari |
Posted - 2008.12.08 15:00:00 - [ 1]
(yes, had to :P)
Looking at the missile changes and being completely unable to make heads or tails of the changes, I am throwing caution into the wind and just am asking if the Sacrilege of old (HAMS and tank, before nano-failery) has become extinct...
So, has it? |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente |
Posted - 2008.12.08 15:07:00 - [ 2]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 08/12/2008 15:07:42
Sac is still a good ship, one fo the best HAC's I dare say. Tho missiles need a slight base damage boost imo, and a bit more explosion velicity. |
NoNah |
Posted - 2008.12.08 15:09:00 - [ 3]
No more than any other hac. But yes, it will have to pick fights and dedicate to the fights now for a change. |
Joe Sasaki |
Posted - 2008.12.08 15:47:00 - [ 4]
 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 08/12/2008 15:07:42
Sac is still a good ship, one fo the best HAC's I dare say. Tho missiles need a slight base damage boost imo, and a bit more explosion velicity.
No it doesnt missile damage might even be a tad on the high side considering their ability to dictate damage type and their inability to miss(no tracking). |
Dr Caligo
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe |
Posted - 2008.12.08 15:55:00 - [ 5]
The sac is fine. It just can't hit from obscene distances anymore. |
Dr Fighter |
Posted - 2008.12.08 16:08:00 - [ 6]
I don't like my Sac anymore.
and no it wasnt nanoed!
The dps from the ship used to be just about acceptable, tho i often took out the zealot instead for that very reason. Now it blows against anything that isn't a BC or BS, other curisers or smaller you just better hope they have no cap left otherweise they will tank you and laugh.
Tank still good, speed still good, ability to get anywehre near its raw dps funked! |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 16:37:00 - [ 7]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
I don't like my Sac anymore.
and no it wasnt nanoed!
The dps from the ship used to be just about acceptable, tho i often took out the zealot instead for that very reason. Now it blows against anything that isn't a BC or BS, other curisers or smaller you just better hope they have no cap left otherweise they will tank you and laugh.
Tank still good, speed still good, ability to get anywehre near its raw dps funked!
Nonsense. Even against a speed-fit Stabber (fast, small sig) HAMs will still do ~90% of their damage once you've webbed it. |
Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy |
Posted - 2008.12.08 16:48:00 - [ 8]
Let someone else in your gang fit the webs and use the ships midslots for a Target Painter, Scrambler, Injector and (MWD or AB), with a TP it should be hitting a lot better against ships not MWDing (since you just turned the damn thing off with the scrambler).
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 16:54:00 - [ 9]
Originally by: Meiyang Lee
Let someone else in your gang fit the webs and use the ships midslots for a Target Painter, Scrambler, Injector and (MWD or AB), with a TP it should be hitting a lot better against ships not MWDing (since you just turned the damn thing off with the scrambler).
Don't be silly, it's stupid to use a painter over a web when you're within web range anyway. Just fit web and disruptor, and let your cruiser-sized target continue to 500% self-paint itself if it attempts to break web. |
AleRiperKilt |
Posted - 2008.12.08 17:08:00 - [ 10]
Edited by: AleRiperKilt on 08/12/2008 17:12:14Edited by: AleRiperKilt on 08/12/2008 17:10:15 Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
(yes, had to :P)
Looking at the missile changes and being completely unable to make heads or tails of the changes, I am throwing caution into the wind and just am asking if the Sacrilege of old (HAMS and tank, before nano-failery) has become extinct...
So, has it?
You kidding, right? We just got spanked this weekend by a pirate in his Sacrilege. He used to nano it and it would take us hours chasing him in our carebear ships, but once we tackled him he was done. Now he fits dual, overloaded MAR IIs and nanobot rigs. Lost two myrms to him  I went out in a Domi and tried snipping him with Curator IIs, he tanked them at 30% armor, 40km Edit: grammar  |
Lindsay Logan |
Posted - 2008.12.08 17:17:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
Now it blows against anything that isn't a BC or BS
Actually this is a problem. HAM and HML as a medium sized weapons was hit way to hard in regard to hit smaller targets. It do hit BC and BS good, but if it can not compete with other HACS whats the point of a HAC? |
Yoko Lee
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.12.08 17:22:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: Lindsay Logan
Originally by: Dr Fighter
Now it blows against anything that isn't a BC or BS
Actually this is a problem. HAM and HML as a medium sized weapons was hit way to hard in regard to hit smaller targets. It do hit BC and BS good, but if it can not compete with other HACS whats the point of a HAC?
I love sacrilege, and dont have problem with fregate = web them :) you have 3 warrior II too can help. Easy to kill a AS with sacrilege nothing else... |
Troezar
Minmatar |
Posted - 2008.12.08 17:23:00 - [ 13]
I'm new to the Sac, from a Vagabond and I much prefer it. The range isn't great but then AC's don't shoot far and in fall off the damage is poor. Fly other HAC's then judge or do like I did and train something else up  |
Yoko Lee
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.12.08 17:26:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Troezar
I'm new to the Sac, from a Vagabond and I much prefer it. The range isn't great but then AC's don't shoot far and in fall off the damage is poor. Fly other HAC's then judge or do like I did and train something else up
sacri tank easier vaga :) |
Soporo
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.12.08 17:31:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Dr Fighter
I don't like my Sac anymore.
and no it wasnt nanoed!
The dps from the ship used to be just about acceptable, tho i often took out the zealot instead for that very reason. Now it blows against anything that isn't a BC or BS, other curisers or smaller you just better hope they have no cap left otherweise they will tank you and laugh.
Tank still good, speed still good, ability to get anywehre near its raw dps funked!
Nonsense. Even against a speed-fit Stabber (fast, small sig) HAMs will still do ~90% of their damage once you've webbed it.
Good ole Gypsio, still spouting his nonsense. Yeah, you're the guy who claimed recently that Torps are "better than ever now" which is a flat lie and utterly ridiculous. Missile damage is subpar in all situations barring a MWD'ing webbed and painted target (even with high support skills), particularly if the ship has a modest sig and reasonable native speed of 300ms or more. Missile precision needs a tweak up at the minimum, they went too far. In your above scenario, asuming you're right about the 90%(which I don't believe) the weapon size DESIGNED to hit such a target can't even do 100% damage before resists even after it's been webbed? Oh, and I bet you're relying on it MWD'ing all over the place as well arent you? This test highlights a missiles problem now, and guess what? It's WORSE with heavies, cruise and torps versus their intended target. (All missile support Skills at 4) Standard launcher on a Kessie with T1 Sabretooth vs Veangeance with no EM resists, Sabretooth default damage of 124 with my skills. Target stationary: 115 damage Target MWD'ing (1750ms): 105 damage Target unmodded speed (317ms): 100 damage Target Afterburning (707ms): 61 damage Standard launcher on a Kessie with Cald Navy Sabretooth vs Veangeance with no EM resists, CN Sabretooth damage of 142 with my skills. Target stationary: 132 damage Target MWD'ing (1750ms): 120 damage Target unmodded speed (317ms): 113 damage Target Afterburning (707ms): 70 damage They went way too far with the precision nerf. |
Shaemell Buttleson |
Posted - 2008.12.08 17:37:00 - [ 16]
I'll be using the Sac over the Cerb as soon as I get Amarr cruiser 5.
Another cerb pilot I know who knows them inside out has allready changed and racking up the kills.
|
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 17:38:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Soporo
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Dr Fighter
I don't like my Sac anymore.
and no it wasnt nanoed!
The dps from the ship used to be just about acceptable, tho i often took out the zealot instead for that very reason. Now it blows against anything that isn't a BC or BS, other curisers or smaller you just better hope they have no cap left otherweise they will tank you and laugh.
Tank still good, speed still good, ability to get anywehre near its raw dps funked!
Nonsense. Even against a speed-fit Stabber (fast, small sig) HAMs will still do ~90% of their damage once you've webbed it.
Good ole Gypsio, still spouting his nonsense. Yeah, you're the guy who claimed recently that Torps are "better than ever now" which is a flat lie and utterly ridiculous.
Missile damage is subpar in all situations barring a MWD'ing webbed and painted target (even with high support skills), particularly if the ship has a modest sig and reasonable native speed of 300ms or more. Missile precision needs a tweak up at the minimum, they went too far.
In your above scenario, asuming you're right about the 90%(which I don't believe) the weapon size DESIGNED to hit such a target can't even do 100% damage before resists even after it's been webbed? Oh, and I bet you're relying on it MWD'ing all over the place as well arent you?
This test highlights a missiles problem now, and guess what? It's WORSE with heavies, cruise and torps versus their intended target.
(All missile support Skills at 4)
Standard launcher on a Kessie with T1 Sabretooth vs Veangeance with no EM resists, Sabretooth default damage of 124 with my skills.
Target stationary: 115 damage
Target MWD'ing (1750ms): 105 damage
Target unmodded speed (317ms): 100 damage
Target Afterburning (707ms): 61 damage
Standard launcher on a Kessie with Cald Navy Sabretooth vs Veangeance with no EM resists, CN Sabretooth damage of 142 with my skills.
Target stationary: 132 damage
Target MWD'ing (1750ms): 120 damage
Target unmodded speed (317ms): 113 damage
Target Afterburning (707ms): 70 damage
They went way too far with the precision nerf.
And now add web to ABing target (speed drops to non-webbed amount more-less) and you do... 90% of stationary damage? So where did Gypsio lie? And as sac user - still awesome ship. |
el caido
School of Applied Knowledge |
Posted - 2008.12.08 17:49:00 - [ 18]
The Sac, like all Khanid ships, has a wtfridiculous tank with ample room for any fitting and plenty of mids. Yes, it is a missile boat, but that is simply the price you pay.
"Extinct"? Hardly. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2008.12.08 17:49:00 - [ 19]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 08/12/2008 17:51:33 Originally by: Joe Sasaki
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 08/12/2008 15:07:42
Sac is still a good ship, one fo the best HAC's I dare say. Tho missiles need a slight base damage boost imo, and a bit more explosion velicity.
No it doesnt missile damage might even be a tad on the high side considering their ability to dictate damage type and their inability to miss(no tracking).
Actually they do kinda have tracking, and it's a bit worse than before - it's based around straight line speed, and HAMs do less damage to a cruiser moving at cruiser base velocity. But that said... Sacs can mount a 500dps omni tank, and run it cap stable, whilst doing damage at 0-18km it won't be 'EFT DPS' but ask a turret user sometime how often they do EFT DPS. The nano sac is dead, long live the tanking sac. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.12.08 18:10:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: Soporo
Good ole Gypsio, still spouting his nonsense. Yeah, you're the guy who claimed recently that Torps are "better than ever now" which is a flat lie and utterly ridiculous.
Torps are indeed better than ever, relative to blasters and ACs, because of the problems that blaster- and AC-boats have in getting to optimal. Torps need no more web/painter support than they did pre-QR. The situation with HAMs is very similar. Originally by: Soporo
Missile damage is subpar in all situations barring a MWD'ing webbed and painted target (even with high support skills), particularly if the ship has a modest sig and reasonable native speed of 300ms or more.
This is not correct. Originally by: Soporo
In your above scenario, asuming you're right about the 90%(which I don't believe) the weapon size DESIGNED to hit such a target can't even do 100% damage before resists even after it's been webbed? Oh, and I bet you're relying on it MWD'ing all over the place as well arent you?
You mean you haven't checked the numbers yourself? You mean that you don't have a spreadsheet that details missile effectiveness in almost all plausible combat situation, with the effects of webs, painters, rigs, booster each applicable at a single entry of data? You mean that you're commenting from a position of complete ignorance? Hmmm, I see. FYI, that is against a webbed, max-skilled, dual-ODI, LSE Stabber. Speed 180 m/s, sig 130 m. No MWD is involved. Given that such a cruiser has no other tank, the difference between 90% (which it can only achieve when going in a straight line, not when attempting to manoeuvre) and 100% damage is quite inconsequential. Of course, you'd know this if you actually knew anything about game mechanics - or how to interpret the numbers. Originally by: Soporo
Standard launcher on a Kessie with Cald Navy Sabretooth vs Veangeance with no EM resists, CN Sabretooth damage of 142 with my skills.
Target stationary: 132 damage
Train GMP V. Compare the damage projection capabilities of SMLs against their turret counterparts. |
Aleus Stygian |
Posted - 2008.12.08 18:26:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Meiyang Lee
Let someone else in your gang fit the webs and use the ships midslots for a Target Painter, Scrambler, Injector and (MWD or AB), with a TP it should be hitting a lot better against ships not MWDing (since you just turned the damn thing off with the scrambler).
Don't be silly, it's stupid to use a painter over a web when you're within web range anyway. Just fit web and disruptor, and let your cruiser-sized target continue to 500% self-paint itself if it attempts to break web.
This. My opinion. Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Soporo
Good ole Gypsio, still spouting his nonsense. Yeah, you're the guy who claimed recently that Torps are "better than ever now" which is a flat lie and utterly ridiculous.
Torps are indeed better than ever, relative to blasters and ACs, because of the problems that blaster- and AC-boats have in getting to optimal. Torps need no more web/painter support than they did pre-QR. The situation with HAMs is very similar.
Very right. Because torps couldn't hit anything properly setup sub-BC size before patch anyway. And anything larger than that is unlikely to move much. (Captain Obvious HUY!) Originally by: Soporo
Missile damage is subpar in all situations barring a MWD'ing webbed and painted target (even with high support skills), particularly if the ship has a modest sig and reasonable native speed of 300ms or more.
This is only moderately right. When you factor in skills and rigs (hydraulic bay thrusters and warhead rigor catalyst; use them) the figure jumps a good deal. A 500 m/s cruiser can still reduce missile damage by an awful amount though, and considering that it can easily be armor tanked and dual repped at the same time, not to mention that it's shamelessly pain, easy and quick getting up the necessary navigation skills... |
Removal Tool
Unleet Industries LLC |
Posted - 2008.12.09 00:24:00 - [ 22]
Someone do me a favor and please list the missile skills that affect HAMS? Or Conversly, which missile skills do not affect HAMS? Either way will do. Thanks  |
Kazuma Saruwatari |
Posted - 2008.12.09 00:58:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Removal Tool
Someone do me a favor and please list the missile skills that affect HAMS? Or Conversly, which missile skills do not affect HAMS? Either way will do. Thanks
That I can answer, and I'm definately sure Guided Missile Precision doesnt work on rockets, HAMS, and torps. @ thread: Lets not bring the pro-anti missile arguements in here please, else, thanks for the info all. I've always wanted to try a HAM Drake even with the changes to go along with the Sac. On the other end of the scale, the Zealot is still my baby  |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy |
Posted - 2008.12.09 01:13:00 - [ 24]
In QR: Sac is good at solo. In gangs it sucks. |
ViperVenom
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
Privateer Alliance |
Posted - 2008.12.09 07:31:00 - [ 25]
Edited by: ViperVenom on 09/12/2008 07:35:34
Man..... The Sac is just fine... Tru it can not hit is Silly ranges but is that really a problem? Nope. If you have trained up Missile skills The Sac will still BBQ alot of thing.
Also.. Now that people dislike missiles i find that a TD/web/scram/mwd is an ok opt..
Yes im dropping a cap booster cuz now you making the ship with guns hit like crap. Just food 4 thought.
I feel that with the changes the Sac with a well skilled Pilot is Pwnage.
Also note If you have Hac 5/HAM skills at 5/Rapid fire5..The ROF is like 3.02sec.. Yes young Skywalker the Pwnage is strong in the Sac..lmao
|
BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
|
Posted - 2008.12.09 08:45:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Soporo
Good ole Gypsio, still spouting his nonsense. Yeah, you're the guy who claimed recently that Torps are "better than ever now" which is a flat lie and utterly ridiculous.
Torps are indeed better than ever, relative to blasters and ACs, because of the problems that blaster- and AC-boats have in getting to optimal. Torps need no more web/painter support than they did pre-QR. The situation with HAMs is very similar.
Originally by: Soporo
Missile damage is subpar in all situations barring a MWD'ing webbed and painted target (even with high support skills), particularly if the ship has a modest sig and reasonable native speed of 300ms or more.
This is not correct.
Originally by: Soporo
In your above scenario, asuming you're right about the 90%(which I don't believe) the weapon size DESIGNED to hit such a target can't even do 100% damage before resists even after it's been webbed? Oh, and I bet you're relying on it MWD'ing all over the place as well arent you?
You mean you haven't checked the numbers yourself? You mean that you don't have a spreadsheet that details missile effectiveness in almost all plausible combat situation, with the effects of webs, painters, rigs, booster each applicable at a single entry of data? You mean that you're commenting from a position of complete ignorance? Hmmm, I see.
FYI, that is against a webbed, max-skilled, dual-ODI, LSE Stabber. Speed 180 m/s, sig 130 m. No MWD is involved. Given that such a cruiser has no other tank, the difference between 90% (which it can only achieve when going in a straight line, not when attempting to manoeuvre) and 100% damage is quite inconsequential. Of course, you'd know this if you actually knew anything about game mechanics - or how to interpret the numbers.
Originally by: Soporo
Standard launcher on a Kessie with Cald Navy Sabretooth vs Veangeance with no EM resists, CN Sabretooth damage of 142 with my skills.
Target stationary: 132 damage
Train GMP V. Compare the damage projection capabilities of SMLs against their turret counterparts.
Agreed, after the changes ive noticed little difference in perfromanc of misisle boats in pvp. Used to hit fast targets poorly, still hit fast targets poorly. Im fine with that :) |
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