open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked EVE-Mag.com - The Sky is Falling
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

Smakalicious
Caldari
UK Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.11.27 01:21:00 - [1]
 

by EVE Player ... I think I started macro’ing during my Ultima Online days. I remember trying out the UO Extreme program and being floored with what others in the game had been using for a very long time. It was at that point, in seeing the advantage gained, that my “follow the rules” style of playing video games began to melt. For weeks I researched the who, the what and the how. It was all very above my head. The final straw was when I became aware that a particular guild was made up of nothing but people who hacked, and hacked quite well. At that point, I knew I was out-gunned. Read more

All the best,
Smak

Publisher of EVE-Mag.com
an independent EVE magazine

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.11.27 01:33:00 - [2]
 

Personally I do not have a problems with people running macros as long as it takes dedication and skill to run them and the chances of being caught high and the penalties severe.

Still, this actually reeks of excuses. The writer is trying to validate his way of playing more to himself than the audience. Pathetic.

Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2008.11.27 02:22:00 - [3]
 

OP = cheat.

Also low sec pirates and macroing ain't comparable at all.

Whatever anybodies personal opinion of pirates may be after having lost a couple ships to them - they are an in-game option and explicitly allowed.

Macroing is an out-of-game thing and explicitly forbidden.

I don't care at all what the CEO or any GMs of *other* games think about it. Keep it out of EVE.

It's not a play style - it's cheating. Make up self-serving justifications all you want - you still break the rules.

It's wonderful that you achieve a zen-like state while hacking - there's plenty of other things that you could macro/script/program all you want without cheating in this game. Heck - do program the macro - and then test it on sisi - problem solved. You get zen without cheating.

Mentioning that you noticed others doing so doesn't make you less of a cheat. It just makes you one of them.

May your roids be low in ore, your barges ganked by pirates, your investments swindled away and your aim always fail.

Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2008.11.27 02:28:00 - [4]
 

"She’s a chick playing an MMO"

That is when I stopped reading. So not only is the author a cheat, he is a sexist cheat. A sexist cheat that can't write a decent article.

Are all the editors of the various Eve fan magazine cluless abou what they are supposed to do? Google on what being a editor means, and then start doing your jobs.

Like handing this article back to the author, telling him to cut the verbiage.

Grungle Norton
Amarr
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.11.27 02:30:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Glengrant
OP = cheat.
Mentioning that you noticed others doing so doesn't make you less of a cheat. It just makes you one of them.

May your roids be low in ore, your barges ganked by pirates, your investments swindled away and your aim always fail.


Exactly, Justifying cheating because someone else does it is just taking the soft option. Of course if cheaters also extend this mind set to become lemming like, then all we need to do is to get one of them to jump over a cliff and the other idiots will all follow. Problem solved :)

SecHaul
Posted - 2008.11.27 05:07:00 - [6]
 

That was an interesting article to read. Not sure why the writer believes there needs to be a logical reason why people want macro'ers out of the game, there doesn't need to be reasons to not cheat. Could everyone cheat? Yes, but because everyone could cheat doesn't mean it's OK.

Anyhow, it was an interesting read. Ultimately different people play games for different reasons, macro'ing would make me enjoy EVE less, not more. But hopefully you keeping my ships cheap, I don't mine, so I am probably benefiting from your endeavours ;)

Aeo IV
Amarr
Xomic OmniCorporation
Posted - 2008.11.27 05:31:00 - [7]
 

I love this excuse:
Quote:
1. Macro’ing is against the EULA! - I don’t care. I don’t care in the way that you don’t care that you have not started a fair fight in Eve in a very long time.


Dude, the EULA is, whether you like it or not, a legal document saying that, as the end user, you're not going to do such and such an activity.

It's not a matter of you caring, it's a matter of you breaking a legal agreement you made with CCP.

Ronha Ottrit
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.11.27 06:13:00 - [8]
 

Dude that Head Developer that visited totally was playing hide the rainbow roll with the guys wife.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2008.11.27 06:48:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Glengrant
OP = cheat.


Considering the OP didnt write the article, "You got the wrong guy"

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2008.11.27 10:18:00 - [10]
 

This reminds me infamose song "Internet is for ****" where that troll says that "Oh, you have no idea! Ready normal people" about macros and EVE.

Sadly. Wink

Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2008.11.27 10:58:00 - [11]
 

CCP doesntd o anything against macro`ers. They justy let em be they pay there acoutn so what is the problem.

I have petitioned and petitioned with 100% proof and there still doing it..

Im giving up. wont bother to petition anymore..

Karille
Gallente
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2008.11.27 11:27:00 - [12]
 

EULAs are for punks. They don't hold up in court well and the only action they can take based on it is kick someone out the game.

nekolove
EVE University
Posted - 2008.11.27 12:19:00 - [13]
 

All games I come from have been destroyed by botters and macroers. When the macroer boasts about it, you can see something is wrong with the GMs and devs. Honestly, CCP cannot afford such ambiguity and should fight 100% against botters. Sadly, when most devs realize, it's too late.

Karille
Gallente
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2008.11.27 12:26:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: nekolove
All games I come from have been destroyed by botters and macroers. When the macroer boasts about it, you can see something is wrong with the GMs and devs. Honestly, CCP cannot afford such ambiguity and should fight 100% against botters. Sadly, when most devs realize, it's too late.


Unfortunately for you those games you came from have a sham economy and servers with a 5000 player population.

nekolove
EVE University
Posted - 2008.11.27 12:38:00 - [15]
 

Karille, I really wouldn't say Eve is a game where botters do not bring consequences. In the article he explains very well that it's on the contrary. Such passivity cannot be good for anyone except for the people who do not want their account banned for botting.

I find Eve a very competitive game, and such an 'edge' gained with this techniques shouldn't be allowed in the first place. This, I think we all agree.

oilio
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.11.27 13:57:00 - [16]
 

Whilst botting is utterly deplorable and is the scourge of many MMORPGs, the fault actually lies with the games designers.

Any game that has repetitive, mindless grind is completely vulnerable to botting.

If the games designers weren't so damn lazy, there would be not tasks in the MMORPG that required mindless repetition - they would all be "hands on" tasks that require player skill and concentration.

Any dumb, repetitive task is a perfect candidate for automation. MMORPG companies insist on making these tasks necessary for progress in the game (be it EXP grinding, ISK grinding, or whatever).

They can't be bothered to code for highly interactive processes and so progress is all too often a case of "do this stupid task X times over-and-over.

You want to stop macro-ers and botters? There's only one way to do that, and that's to make "grinding" scenarios much more interactive and varied such that they can't be automated and require the full attention (and control) of the player.

CCP are the last company on the planet that would invest the ncessary time and effort into doing that. Our recent "expansion" is a demonstration of how much work they're prepared to put into the game.

Macro farmers pay CCP. CCP would have to pay development costs to stop Macro farmers...

...so I suspect they're here to stay - it's an infestation that CCP won't do a damn thing about because it pays them not to, and costs them if they try to cure it.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.27 18:47:00 - [17]
 

I'll give this thread a free bump because I do think this is an important issue, and even though personally I think that maroers are bastards (and I wouldn't have published the article for that reason), I think that it's important that stuff like this is visible and that there are different EVE 'zines with different editorial philosophies.

Of course the marcoer misses some important points, like how non-cheaters find it almost impossible to make a profession out of mining and the unfairness inherent in cheating is totally different from the fair situation that if you invest more time in the game, you get more out of it. But hey, that's why op-ed's exist, not to express gospel truth but to share a point of view. And Eve-Mag certainly has delivered a coherent point of view from a macroer.

Originally by: Banana Torres
"She’s a chick playing an MMO"

That is when I stopped reading. So not only is the author a cheat, he is a sexist cheat.


The best defense against claims of racism or sexism is the same as the best defense against claims of libel or slander: the truth. As it happens, many MMO's, especially EVE, have lots of young male players. Lots of stupid young male players. Being a woman (or pretending to be a woman) does give you a leg up. Many horny young males will offer you in-game items in order to gain your favor. Because they're stupid.


Now, simply because this is a pet peeve of mine:

Originally by: Banana Torres

Are all the editors of the various Eve fan magazine cluless abou what they are supposed to do?


No, but you are.
And you're displaying a strange degree of arrogance to boot. Why on Earth do you think that you, a non-staffer, non-boss get to decide what the job of a total stranger is? Let me put it to you really, really simply:

You do not get to determine our job descriptions.
You do not get to determine our editorial philosophies.
You do not get to determine anything about our jobs, at all.
You certainly do not get to invent a job description that exists only in your head, and then take editors to task for not cleaving to your imagination.

If you want an EVE 'zine that adheres to your editorial philosophy, start one. Otherwise, our actual, non-imaginary job descriptions will determine how we go about editing. And if we like a certain amount of verbiage then part of our job is allowing that or even encouraging that.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.11.27 21:15:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: oilio
Whilst botting is utterly deplorable and is the scourge of many MMORPGs, the fault actually lies with the games designers.

Any game that has repetitive, mindless grind is completely vulnerable to botting.

If the games designers weren't so damn lazy, there would be not tasks in the MMORPG that required mindless repetition - they would all be "hands on" tasks that require player skill and concentration.

Any dumb, repetitive task is a perfect candidate for automation. MMORPG companies insist on making these tasks necessary for progress in the game (be it EXP grinding, ISK grinding, or whatever).

They can't be bothered to code for highly interactive processes and so progress is all too often a case of "do this stupid task X times over-and-over.

You want to stop macro-ers and botters? There's only one way to do that, and that's to make "grinding" scenarios much more interactive and varied such that they can't be automated and require the full attention (and control) of the player.

CCP are the last company on the planet that would invest the ncessary time and effort into doing that. Our recent "expansion" is a demonstration of how much work they're prepared to put into the game.

Macro farmers pay CCP. CCP would have to pay development costs to stop Macro farmers...

...so I suspect they're here to stay - it's an infestation that CCP won't do a damn thing about because it pays them not to, and costs them if they try to cure it.

Smakalicious
Caldari
UK Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.11.28 08:44:00 - [19]
 

Thank you Finn, and thank you all the others for sharing your opinions on this article, it is highly appreciated!

I knew this would happen, if we chose to publish this article :)

I was swayed, whether to publish it or not because I was sure, that this article would split the community in two sides: "Haters" and "Acknowledgers".

My personal view is, that an independent magazine should cover any kind of topic regardless of the perception. Anything else would be censoring. One of our goals should be to create awareness what is available outthere in New Eden. This includes the Dark Sides of EVE, like ISK farming/selling, account hacking/theft, CC fraud, etc.

EVE is just much much more than just PvP'ing, Missioning and sorts, and actually you can find the same social structures and behaviours like in real life, and this is what makes this game so incredibly interesting and fun to be part of imho.

I was sure, that when publishing this article, we would polarize and a lot of people would put their opinion on the boards and the comment section and thus disclosing their valued position.

To Banana I'd like to say, that we, the authors and the publishers, decide what to publish or not. I can't speak on behalf of EVE-Tribune and EVE News Network, but I believe we share one common passion: We believe in publishing great articles for the good of the community. We love what we do and the way we do it. If you don't feel comfortable with our topics, we won't force you to read it.

Thank you for your time reading this.

All the best,
Smak

Publisher of EVE-Mag.com
an independent EVE magazine

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.11.28 16:56:00 - [20]
 

[nitpick] That's not censorship. In order to truly censor something, you have to have the power to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable. That, really, requires either government involvement or threats of force. Private entities, like Eve fan 'zines, only have the ability to decide for themselves what they publish or what they don't. And that's totally within their right. And any individual choices (or even if we all collectively acted in the same way) wouldn't amount to suppressing or deleting the content, simply not providing it with a public forum. And, of course, we're not obligated to provide absolutely everybody with a public forum. I hope that, for instance, most folks would draw the line at something like "A guide to luring minors into sexual relations, using EVE Online."

Choosing not to grant a platform to certain people isn't censorship. It's a private organization making its own choices as to what it publishes and what it doesn't.

If CCP threatened to ban the staff of Eve-Mag for publishing the macro article, then that'd be censorship. If rabid EVE players threatened to firebomb the house of anybody who published anything on macros, that'd be censorship.

Censorship is garbage and we'd certainly stand shoulder to shoulder with any other Eve 'zines in order to oppose it.

But let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill.

[/nitpick]

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2008.11.28 17:28:00 - [21]
 

I don't believe the article.

At least not the author who claims to have a good family, good job and being clever. He also claims that he created the macro(s) so that he can have his accounts accumulate ore which he sells on the market so that he can gets isk for free so that he can have fun in the game.

Erm, hello? If you need tons of isk to have fun in the game you are really not clever nor intelligent. Look at these goonswarm dudes for example which had lots of fun in their cheap t1 frigs. I bet they had 100 times more fun that this macro dude - if he is real, which I doubt.

And anyway, CCP is doing a good job. When was the last time you were flooded with isk seller spam? Sure, here and there one might slip through but I would say they are doing pretty well on that side. I guess they aren't doing worse on the macro side.

Besides the claim that a high ranked GM claimed that he wouldn't care about macroing is surely very naive if not a outright lie.

And last not least, who would go for ore? I mean, come on, that is the stupiest thing to be done if you have tons of ice around which is much much easier to mine because you can mine there without end (almost).

Lots of hot talk, stupid claims and quite some contradictions. If it wouldn't be such a pityful existance it would give a good laugh.

Andraine
Coded Arms Corp
Posted - 2008.11.28 17:34:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Banana Torres
"She’s a chick playing an MMO"

That is when I stopped reading. So not only is the author a cheat, he is a sexist cheat. A sexist cheat that can't write a decent article.

Are all the editors of the various Eve fan magazine cluless abou what they are supposed to do? Google on what being a editor means, and then start doing your jobs.

Like handing this article back to the author, telling him to cut the verbiage.


Birds eh

gallentescout
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.11.28 18:50:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
And anyway, CCP is doing a good job. When was the last time you were flooded with isk seller spam? Sure, here and there one might slip through but I would say they are doing pretty well on that side. I guess they aren't doing worse on the macro side.


It's worth bearing in mind though that CCP benefit in no way from isk sellers so attacking them is a simple decision for them.

They do however make money from macro accounts and GTC buyers. It's no surprise that CCP's main attack on isk-sellers was to try to divert those 'dishonest' funds into their own wallet by making GTC selling a legitimate practice.

If CCP could magically implement anti-macro mechanics into the game tomorrow I wouldn't even try to guess how many subscriptions would be cancelled within the week. I bet a lot of *cough* "industrial accounts" would suddenly be surplus to requirements.

People can call in the tinfoil hat brigade all they want but the smart money is on CCP losing a heck of a lot of money if they code out macro'ing.

Kiotsu Adler
Posted - 2008.11.28 19:08:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: oilio
Whilst botting is utterly deplorable and is the scourge of many MMORPGs, the fault actually lies with the games designers.

Any game that has repetitive, mindless grind is completely vulnerable to botting.

If the games designers weren't so damn lazy, there would be not tasks in the MMORPG that required mindless repetition - they would all be "hands on" tasks that require player skill and concentration.

Any dumb, repetitive task is a perfect candidate for automation. MMORPG companies insist on making these tasks necessary for progress in the game (be it EXP grinding, ISK grinding, or whatever).

They can't be bothered to code for highly interactive processes and so progress is all too often a case of "do this stupid task X times over-and-over.

You want to stop macro-ers and botters? There's only one way to do that, and that's to make "grinding" scenarios much more interactive and varied such that they can't be automated and require the full attention (and control) of the player.

CCP are the last company on the planet that would invest the ncessary time and effort into doing that. Our recent "expansion" is a demonstration of how much work they're prepared to put into the game.

Macro farmers pay CCP. CCP would have to pay development costs to stop Macro farmers...

...so I suspect they're here to stay - it's an infestation that CCP won't do a damn thing about because it pays them not to, and costs them if they try to cure it.


QTF and
/thread

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2008.12.04 00:54:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 04/12/2008 00:54:43
Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 04/12/2008 00:53:58
Originally by: Glengrant

May your roids be low in ore, your barges ganked by pirates, your investments swindled away and your aim always fail.

^---- Agreed, and further:

"May your shields fail, your armor be made of paper and your structure that of twigs"

Macro = Lie

AKTwisted Evil

Michella Obamama
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.12.04 01:01:00 - [26]
 

This post has been cleared of inappropriate content.

Regards,
The EVE Online Moderation team

SharpMango
The Khanates
Posted - 2008.12.04 05:00:00 - [27]
 

well said finnagain. As i said in the eve-mag article. Congrats to Eve-mag for publishing that article. Publishing a piece is not the same as condoning it, it offers a very valuable insight into the lives of the amoral gamer, that is all. Theres a real life newspaper, called the guardian, which has an opinion section entitled 'Comment is free.....but facts are sacred' It publishes articles from top writers all over the world, it allows the casual reader to read thought provoking articles and make individual judgments. To me what eve-mag did is something similar. And to eve-tribune's credit. they have been doing this already for years.

Juggurnaut
Posted - 2008.12.04 09:57:00 - [28]
 

The biggest problem with macros is that its against the rules and people who follow the rules feel cheated when others do not follow the rules and are rewarded for it. Macros are cheating, no matter how long your article is or how you word it, its cheating. So to someone like myself, an honest non-cheating person, an article like this is a slap to the face. I want to know, why hasn't someone from CCP at least make an attempt as to quote the EULA about their rules against macros or something.

This whole thread and the article just goes to show, how unregulated EvE is. So if you choose so, you are free to "cheat" as much as your programming will allow you. And if you are real good at it, and write some clever little reason behind it, some uncensored, unbiased magazine will post your wanna-be zen like story about the great and wonderful world of cheaters.

Funny thing is, the writer started cheating because others was doing it, and that is his whole defense on why it is ok and some kinda play style now........um, ok. Cheater


Rachel Voegel
San Matar Trucking Company
Posted - 2008.12.04 12:57:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: EVE Player
Macro’ing is against the EULA! - I don’t care.

Great argument. Rolling Eyes

Smakalicious
Caldari
UK Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.12.05 11:23:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: SharpMango
well said finnagain. As i said in the eve-mag article. Congrats to Eve-mag for publishing that article. Publishing a piece is not the same as condoning it, it offers a very valuable insight into the lives of the amoral gamer, that is all. Theres a real life newspaper, called the guardian, which has an opinion section entitled 'Comment is free.....but facts are sacred' It publishes articles from top writers all over the world, it allows the casual reader to read thought provoking articles and make individual judgments. To me what eve-mag did is something similar. And to eve-tribune's credit. they have been doing this already for years.


Thanks SharpMango,

Prior to publishing this article I was sure, that this topic really would strongly polarize opinions. Of course, I myself have a personal opinion about the topic, but I felt it was irrelevant on what I thought about it. The important thing was to cover this topic because of its existence as part of this (and other) MMORPGs.

The staff writers of EVE-Mag had a really hot discussion, some biased some unswayed, whether the publishment was right or wrong. In the end it didn't make any difference, fact is, Macro'ing (amongst other things) exists in EVE and we have to deal with it one way or the other.

As you have said correctly, EVE-Mag.com has published this article to provoke, to force people to take sides and, last but not least, to inform of this aspect of the game.

All the best,
Smak

Publisher of EVE-Mag.com
an independant EVE magazine


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only