| Author |
Topic |
Bistot Kid
The First Thing You'll Ever See
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 21:17:00 - [ 31]
You know what OP? You can tell me how to play the game when you pay my subs for me. Until then, just like all the people who want to force "carebears" into a lowsec or nullsec turkey shoot etc, you can **** right off. |
Miss Xerox |
Posted - 2008.11.17 21:21:00 - [ 32]
 Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 17/11/2008 18:38:37
Originally by: Makhan
You are undercutted by .01 isk.
Do you:
A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn
B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk
C. Ragequit the market
D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more
(Answer is A, B is wasteful and lowers the price, D he would just undercut you again if there was profit at all, and you've ruined the market anyway for everybody, congratulations.)
The fact that you've ruined the market for everybody makes D the correct answer… 
…and no-one is saying you need to stay at that low price (unless you need your stuff to be sold this very instant). Just sit back and laugh as they start killing each other at close-to-loss prices because they're stupid. (Yes, it happens…  )
This leads to an interesting story I had along these lines. I was selling a T2 module in a relatively out-of-the-way system and found that within 5 minutes of posting a sell order the nearest competition had undercut me by 0.01 ISK. This happened far faster than I could keep up with (read: Market Bot), and never stopped, no matter how low I kept pushing the sell order. So I removed all but one module, and put up a sell order at 25% the cost to build the item. Within 5 minutes the Market Bot matched my order... so I bought the lot. This went on for over two weeks, and I raked in huge profits off of that macro. Finally the macro stopped going below a particular cieling when someone reprogrammed it. |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 21:28:00 - [ 33]
OK guyz, I have a questionairre. - How do you look like a clueless fool who thinks the 0.01 game is the only way to play the market? A) Make a forum post telling everyone that 0.01 isk undercutting is the only way to adjust your prices. B) Make claims people who undercut by ridiculous amounts are 'clueless' and have no idea about market mechanics. C) Having attempted A and B, realise you've got no clue why they did it, but you've now played straight into someones well thought out plan by plunging your prices just as deep as theirs like the mindless sheep that you are. 0.01 isk undercutter tears, nom nom nom |
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 21:32:00 - [ 34]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
0.01 isk undercutter tears, nom nom nom
I'll pay 0.01 isk more for those tears… no shenanigans… I promise!  |
Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific |
Posted - 2008.11.17 21:44:00 - [ 35]
Originally by: Miss Xerox
I was selling a T2 module in a relatively out-of-the-way system and found that within 5 minutes of posting a sell order the nearest competition had undercut me by 0.01 ISK. This happened far faster than I could keep up with (read: Market Bot), and never stopped, no matter how low I kept pushing the sell order.
So I removed all but one module, and put up a sell order at 25% the cost to build the item. Within 5 minutes the Market Bot matched my order... so I bought the lot.
This went on for over two weeks, and I raked in huge profits off of that macro. Finally the macro stopped going below a particular cieling when someone reprogrammed it.
How quickly was the undercutting? I mean, to say, was it just a single order that undercut you or was it a chain reaction. The reason why I am wondering is because, as you know, there is a time limit on how soon one can adjust a buy/sell order. Also, I always thought that the "market bot" thing was an urban myth. Never have had experienced it myself. I can always tell I am playing with other humans by the time difference in their market maneuvers, and by the hate mail. But then again, just because I have not seen it, does not mean it does not exist, just wondering how one would even make such a macro, is market read by the client? Or is it an API read macro. |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 22:49:00 - [ 36]
Quote:
Also, I always thought that the "market bot" thing was an urban myth. Never have had experienced it myself.
It is. If players will sit down for hours on end to grind missions, work on mining ops or run gatecamps, they'll most definately sit in the one station tweaking orders by 0.01 ISK all day if it makes them ISK. Sadly it's a very inefficient way of making ISK. Those sorts of players get into a 'game vision' mode where they start to ignore other things going on around. Monitoring all their (potentially hundreds of) orders, the only thing they see is 'I'm not the cheapest seller, better 0.01 isk undercut it' without comprehending the greater scenario. These people are every manipulators best friend. |
stupid flanders
Planet Express LLC
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 22:59:00 - [ 37]
Diversify, Diversify, Diversify. |
Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill. |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:03:00 - [ 38]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 17/11/2008 23:13:17 Originally by: Augeas
Quote:
You are undercutted by .01 isk.
Do you:
A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn
B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk
C. Ragequit the market
D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more
(Answer is A, B is wasteful and lowers the price, D he would just undercut you again if there was profit at all, and you've ruined the market anyway for everybody, congratulations.)
No, this is the classic clueless 0.01-ISK lemming error.
The correct course of action, if you find yourself immediately undercut in a busy market hub, is to make a hefty undercut yourself. 10%, 50%, 80% of the profit, whatever.
The objective is to persuade your opponent to either a) not undercut you back, allowing you sales and profit, or b) to buy up your order, generating profit and allowing you to repeat the process for extra lolz or c) forcing your competitor to undercut back.
If C happens, then you can either be happy that you've cut his profits and griefed him at no cost to yourself, or you can try another hefty undercut and see who blinks first...
the correct answer is undercut by 95% of profit, wait for -0.1 isk undercut answer. Buy his stock. Upper cut up to 300% back when you're alone. I made this once on a product. I had so much stocks that I controlled this one product market on the whole region. Choose your product carefully, esp named items because of slow refreshing offer. Now who's clueless, Mr-I-know-it-all-at-Jita-mechanisms ? :) |
Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill. |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:04:00 - [ 39]
Originally by: Miss Xerox
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 17/11/2008 18:38:37
Originally by: Makhan
You are undercutted by .01 isk.
Do you:
A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn
B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk
C. Ragequit the market
D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more
(Answer is A, B is wasteful and lowers the price, D he would just undercut you again if there was profit at all, and you've ruined the market anyway for everybody, congratulations.)
The fact that you've ruined the market for everybody makes D the correct answer…
…and no-one is saying you need to stay at that low price (unless you need your stuff to be sold this very instant). Just sit back and laugh as they start killing each other at close-to-loss prices because they're stupid. (Yes, it happens… )
This leads to an interesting story I had along these lines.
I was selling a T2 module in a relatively out-of-the-way system and found that within 5 minutes of posting a sell order the nearest competition had undercut me by 0.01 ISK. This happened far faster than I could keep up with (read: Market Bot), and never stopped, no matter how low I kept pushing the sell order.
So I removed all but one module, and put up a sell order at 25% the cost to build the item. Within 5 minutes the Market Bot matched my order... so I bought the lot.
This went on for over two weeks, and I raked in huge profits off of that macro. Finally the macro stopped going below a particular cieling when someone reprogrammed it.
Haha exactly my point :) |
Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill. |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:12:00 - [ 40]
Another one you should know Mr advanced tycoon :)
Mr A sells at 10 isk
Mr B sells at 10.01 isk
Mr C sells at 20 isk
A + B vol < what the regions sells per day. Expectations from your side this product will rarefy soon. Your volume is < at 25% of what the region sells a day.
Sell at 19.9 and let it die. C might buy it to eliminate concurency.
Put another 25% at 19.9 next day :)
|
Makhan |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:20:00 - [ 41]
Edited by: Makhan on 17/11/2008 23:21:11I should probably mention that in general I'm applying my rules to the T2 market that has few sellers where things like this become more annoying because you realize people should know better than to ruin a good thing, rather than the over-competed for T1 market. Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 17/11/2008 23:13:17
the correct answer is undercut by 95% of profit, wait for -0.1 isk undercut answer.
Buy his stock.
Upper cut up to 300% back when you're alone.
I made this once on a product. I had so much stocks that I controlled this one product market on the whole region.
Choose your product carefully, esp named items because of slow refreshing offer.
Now who's clueless, Mr-I-know-it-all-at-Jita-mechanisms ? :)
Also this is probably the only manufacturing case where it's valid to undercut by more than .01 isk but it's a risky move, could get bought out at the lower price yourself. |
Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill. |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:21:00 - [ 42]
Originally by: Laya Rale
I actually quite enjoy confusing people with 9's,8's and 6's. For instance, lets say we have an item priced 199,999,999.65 and someone undercuts you to *.64. Simply make your next price 199,989,999.63 and watch him set the price to 199,999,999.62 but still above your order. .
I used that too. Also for human mind, 1.91 is cheep while 1.88 is not. -0.01 isk undercutting ? lol :) |
Soporo
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:22:00 - [ 43]
As a consumer if I see an item at say 99.99 isk 100.00 isk and 100.01 isk, I will undoubtedly purchase the 100.00 isk item.
This is merely because I wish to reward the sensible fellow who doesnt stare crosseyed at the market screen refreshing every few seconds for hours on end and engaging in pointless 0.01 wars. |
Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking
Yggdrasill. |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:23:00 - [ 44]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 17/11/2008 23:27:08 Originally by: Makhan
Also this is probably the only manufacturing case where it's valid to undercut by more than .01 isk but it's a risky move, could get bought out at the lower price yourself.
Yep but I've got a lot of self-made secrets that i won't share to minimize the risk :) -edit- Anyway even if you loose, you made 5% profit... keep the 5% and go buy the same stock elsewhere -> 2 weeks later you got a stock and your starting investement. |
Makhan |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:25:00 - [ 45]
Edited by: Makhan on 17/11/2008 23:35:45 Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Originally by: Laya Rale
I actually quite enjoy confusing people with 9's,8's and 6's. For instance, lets say we have an item priced 199,999,999.65 and someone undercuts you to *.64. Simply make your next price 199,989,999.63 and watch him set the price to 199,999,999.62 but still above your order. .
I used that too.
Also for human mind, 1.91 is cheep while 1.88 is not.
-0.01 isk undercutting ? lol :)
I like this too, actually. Market mind games are half the fun, and is sometimes worth sacrificing ultimate efficiency. Originally by: Soporo
As a consumer if I see an item at say 99.99 isk 100.00 isk and 100.01 isk, I will undoubtedly purchase the 100.00 isk item.
This is merely because I wish to reward the sensible fellow who doesnt stare crosseyed at the market screen refreshing every few seconds for hours on end and engaging in pointless 0.01 wars.
Somebody who doesn't know that it still buys the lowest at the selected price detected. |
Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:26:00 - [ 46]
Originally by: Soporo
As a consumer if I see an item at say 99.99 isk 100.00 isk and 100.01 isk, I will undoubtedly purchase the 100.00 isk item.
This is merely because I wish to reward the sensible fellow who doesnt stare crosseyed at the market screen refreshing every few seconds for hours on end and engaging in pointless 0.01 wars.
Sadly you're wrong there. Even if you click directly on the 100.00 ISK item to buy it, the 99.99 ISK seller will have his item sold, but for 100.00 ISK. No, it doesn't make sense to me either, but that's how it works. |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:31:00 - [ 47]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 17/11/2008 23:32:54 Originally by: Soporo
As a consumer if I see an item at say 99.99 isk 100.00 isk and 100.01 isk, I will undoubtedly purchase the 100.00 isk item.
This is merely because I wish to reward the sensible fellow who doesnt stare crosseyed at the market screen refreshing every few seconds for hours on end and engaging in pointless 0.01 wars.
It was always going to happen. Market 101. You place a *buy order* on the market. If it can be filled instantly, it is filled by the person with the cheapest sell order. Case example: Person A, B and C all list the same item in the same station. Person A lists an item at 99.99 ISK Person B lists at 100 ISK Person C lists at 100.01 You right click person B's order and say 'Buy Item'. The "Buy order" menu appears with your selected price of 100 isk populated in it. You click "Buy" It creates a Buy order for 100 ISK. That Buy order is filled by person A. So the outcome? You have an item you paid 100 isk for. Person A now has 100 isk and no item. The market now looks like this: Person B has an item listed at 100 Isk Person C has it listed at 100.01 ISK Don't believe me? Go into Jita, right click on a more expensive buy order one unit of it, then watch the cheapest order quantity column drop by one. You cannot buy from a particular seller when multiple cheaper options are available Quote:
No, it doesn't make sense to me either, but that's how it works.
It makes sense because it's a broker system, not a typical market. |
Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:35:00 - [ 48]
i love the juxtaposition of an elitist "intelligence test" next to mispelled "brief" |
Makhan |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:38:00 - [ 49]
Originally by: Faife
i love the juxtaposition of an elitist "intelligence test" next to mispelled "brief"
|
Washell Olivaw |
Posted - 2008.11.17 23:42:00 - [ 50]
Originally by: Makhan
Originally by: Faife
i love the juxtaposition of an elitist "intelligence test" next to mispelled "brief"
And no proper capitalization and punctuation. |
Soporo
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.11.18 01:40:00 - [ 51]
Originally by: Fink Angel
Originally by: Soporo
As a consumer if I see an item at say 99.99 isk 100.00 isk and 100.01 isk, I will undoubtedly purchase the 100.00 isk item.
This is merely because I wish to reward the sensible fellow who doesnt stare crosseyed at the market screen refreshing every few seconds for hours on end and engaging in pointless 0.01 wars.
Sadly you're wrong there. Even if you click directly on the 100.00 ISK item to buy it, the 99.99 ISK seller will have his item sold, but for 100.00 ISK.
No, it doesn't make sense to me either, but that's how it works.
What? That makes no sense at all. I'm talking about seeing the listed item in the market window, filtering by price, selecting what I wish to buy at what price, buying it, and seeing that fellows stock go down by one. |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 01:50:00 - [ 52]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/11/2008 01:50:50 Originally by: Makhan
D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more
Fun to do, and ruins the market for everyone For instance, I come with a hauler of my ill-gotten goods from low-sec. Now, I want to sell as fast as possible and get back to bashing people in the face and taking their stuff, but buy/sell spread is absurdly high. So, for instance, a module has a buy order for 750K and a sell order for 1,423,543 ISK. I come in and set the sell order(s) for 1,399,000 ISK hoping someone will just buy them off fast so I free up my sell orders quick ,eh? No. I get someone selling for 1,398,999,01 ISK and soon everyone follows Then I set sell orders to 1,349,000 ISK, again counting on someone buying them off fast. Repeat ad infinitum. I've personally crashed the prices from 1.4M to 1.19M at times in Dodixie on low-volume items. It's awesome fun, particularly when you know you got it off carebears and now are killing their trade hub Awesome. Best part, nobody goes like 'oh, 10 mods for 5% under market, ill buy and resell' Btw, ruining markets is awesome fun. Sometimes I do it just for the hell of it  |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 01:58:00 - [ 53]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 18/11/2008 02:00:49Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 18/11/2008 01:58:59 Quote:
What? That makes no sense at all.
I'm talking about seeing the listed item in the market window, filtering by price, selecting what I wish to buy at what price, buying it, and seeing that fellows stock go down by one.
There's a hundred and one reasons (including those filters) why what you're percieving may or may not be happening. Regardless, someone saying things like this appears in MD like clockwork, and as always, they aren't telling the story correct (missing details), or they are just plain wrong. As I said, go to Jita, list tritanium, right click the cheapest sell order *available in that station*, buy it and watch it go down. Then right click one of the more expensive trit items, buy it, and watch the cheapest order *available in that station* go down. When you hit that buy button, you aren't taking it away from that particular seller, you're placing a buy order for an item at that particular price, then the market matches your order against the cheapest available order. YOU CANNOT SELECTIVELY BUY FROM PEOPLE OFF THE MARKET. The only way you can do that is if the sell order isn't in range of your buy order. If that's not proof enough, go to Jita 4-4 and, to use your words, 'Buy one unit of trit from each seller in Jita 4-4', then check your market transaction logs and be surprised that you've purchased one unit of trit off the same person hundreds of times. Wow,,, they must be the only person selling trit in Jita 4-4  |
Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific |
Posted - 2008.11.18 02:03:00 - [ 54]
Originally by: Soporo
Originally by: Fink Angel
Originally by: Soporo
As a consumer if I see an item at say 99.99 isk 100.00 isk and 100.01 isk, I will undoubtedly purchase the 100.00 isk item.
This is merely because I wish to reward the sensible fellow who doesnt stare crosseyed at the market screen refreshing every few seconds for hours on end and engaging in pointless 0.01 wars.
Sadly you're wrong there. Even if you click directly on the 100.00 ISK item to buy it, the 99.99 ISK seller will have his item sold, but for 100.00 ISK.
No, it doesn't make sense to me either, but that's how it works.
What? That makes no sense at all.
I'm talking about seeing the listed item in the market window, filtering by price, selecting what I wish to buy at what price, buying it, and seeing that fellows stock go down by one.
Soporo, EVE market works like this: Item on the market, lets say it is Salvager I, all in the same station: Player A sells Salvager I for 100 ISK Player B sells Salvager I for 2000 ISK Player C sells Salvager I for 99 ISK Player D sells Salvager I for 88.99 ISK You come along, and decide to "reward" the player B, and buy Salvager I for 2000 ISK, the market automatically charges you 2000 ISK, and gives it to player D. Player D now has 2000 ISK, even though he was selling for 88.99 ISK, and player B still has his inventory full. EVE rewards the players who sell at lowest price, hence the idiocy of .01 undercutting that is taken to its silliest degree. That is why it is sometimes imperative to kill the market for the item, and ruin it for everyone, in order to profit. You have to push the competition to the point where they throw in the towel, and you pickup the pieces. Well, until someone with greater desire to stay in the same market comes along and pushes you out by using same means. Market PVP is just evil in EVE, worse, in many respects than actual PVP, and people go bananas when you really start messing with "their" region. |
Makhan |
Posted - 2008.11.18 02:56:00 - [ 55]
Originally by: Jinx Barker
Market PVP is just evil in EVE, worse, in many respects than actual PVP, and people go bananas when you really start messing with "their" region.
Well interfering with operations in a seller's typical sales area is a lot like invading another alliance's space. Profit is the first casualty in price war. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 03:02:00 - [ 56]
|
Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE |
Posted - 2008.11.18 03:07:00 - [ 57]
Originally by: Makhan
You have a hold full of goods, you encounter a busy market with no orders
Do you:
A. Sell at the regional average
B. Sell at the average price around the regions
C. Jack the price up to as high as the market will bear
C. Or sell about half way between highest buy order and lowest sell order, so it moves faster. Quote:
You are undercutted by .01 isk.Do you:
A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn
B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk
C. Ragequit the market
D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more
A B and D. It's not "wasteful" to ruin the market prices for everybody, if I'm still making a profit and the other guys get butthurt about the trashed margin, they might just take their .01 ISK outbidding somewhere else. Quote:
You encounter a market with one sell order, at a price that you know is 3x the build cost of the item.Do you:
A. Undercut to what the price is in other regions
B. Undercut by .01 isk
C. Buy the product so you can see who sold it so you can rail on them for being unethical
B. Quote:
The market for your products is getting worse, so you decide to mine all the needed minerals to make all the minerals free in your build cost.You are:
A. Dumb
B. Misinformed
C. Clueless
D. All of the above
B. You shouldn't have included your "answers" because some of them, you weren't 100% right. There is more than one way to handle the first 3 questions, there is no "right" way to do it. |
Savage Roar
O X I D E |
Posted - 2008.11.18 03:18:00 - [ 58]
Originally by: Plim
C. Make them play by your rules 
QFT |
Makhan |
Posted - 2008.11.18 03:19:00 - [ 59]
|
Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men |
Posted - 2008.11.18 07:53:00 - [ 60]
Originally by: Soporo
What? That makes no sense at all.
I'm talking about seeing the listed item in the market window, filtering by price, selecting what I wish to buy at what price, buying it, and seeing that fellows stock go down by one.
As the guys above explained, that is how it works, even if it seems odd. The first time this struck me was when I was selling something for (say) 500,000 ISK and my wallet went up by 700,000 ISK. I was most surprised and when investigating what happened it finally dawned on me how that part of the market works. |
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