| Author |
Topic |
Beaty Swollocks
T.R.I.A.D |
Posted - 2008.11.11 23:58:00 - [ 1]
Hi there, well im just closing in now on either enough isk or lp to buy either a CNR or Golem, but i cant decide which one will perform better.
What with the missile changes coming in how will they pan out now ?
i haven't been on sisi as i have been away for a while so don't know what the changes are like.
How are cruise and torps fairing on sisi ?
Which in the minds of the people who have tested out sisi (for which your info i am greatfull for) would perform better -
A Cruise//Torp CNR?
A Cruise//Torp Golem ?
[Tho i haven't trained up for a golem yet, been getting my support//sheild//drone skills in place 1st]
|
Frankinator
Caldari
Rebirth.
THE GOD SQUAD |
Posted - 2008.11.12 01:20:00 - [ 2]
Golem. Fit a painter and bring Javelin and Rage torps. And maybe 3 Berserker SW. (webbing drones) |
Chomapuraku
Caldari
Carinae's Workshop |
Posted - 2008.11.12 03:36:00 - [ 3]
same as before patch. golem + painter (or 2).
it fits a more-than-adequate 5-slot tank for most missions and claims PWNership of BSes and BCs before they can get into your tank.
only difference is now, javelins have been range-buffed, making them even better |
Kadoes Khan |
Posted - 2008.11.12 03:49:00 - [ 4]
Torp golem is still king. |
Nathanial Victor
Minmatar |
Posted - 2008.11.12 03:51:00 - [ 5]
really?
torp golem over cruise golem?
i understand the rapid pwnership of bs/bc but missions have SO MANY cruisers (and it just takes too long with medium drones, especially now)
i figured a cruise golem would be the new king, but by all means enlighten me ! |
EFT Warrior |
Posted - 2008.11.12 04:36:00 - [ 6]
I believe with the target painter and the bonuses on the Golem make it still do more damage than cruises. |
Kadoes Khan |
Posted - 2008.11.12 04:42:00 - [ 7]
Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 12/11/2008 04:43:11Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 12/11/2008 04:42:55 Originally by: Nathanial Victor
really?
torp golem over cruise golem?
i understand the rapid pwnership of bs/bc but missions have SO MANY cruisers (and it just takes too long with medium drones, especially now)
i figured a cruise golem would be the new king, but by all means enlighten me !
[Golem, Missions] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Fit hardeners to mission obviously but just paint things up and shoot away. With 2 bonused painters even cruisers have a massive sig radius. Also cruise lose a very significant portion of their DPS to defenders whereas torps lose none(a single torp needs 3 defenders to take it down). |
Nathanial Victor
Minmatar |
Posted - 2008.11.12 05:05:00 - [ 8]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
[Golem, Missions]
FITTING
Fit hardeners to mission obviously but just paint things up and shoot away. With 2 bonused painters even cruisers have a massive sig radius. Also cruise lose a very significant portion of their DPS to defenders whereas torps lose none(a single torp needs 3 defenders to take it down).
 not sure i can spring for some of those modules/rigs. but i'm sure i can deduce a similar fit that should work with relatively the same results as yours if it's THAT good. lets say you fit t1 rigs... (no implants)... how far out do those torps go? i'm also considering using one of those tractor beam slots for a drone mod to reach out there a bit more. what do you think? |
Bladen Kerst
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2008.11.12 05:08:00 - [ 9]
Edited by: Bladen Kerst on 12/11/2008 05:08:54
Javelin's range wasn't buffed. They still fly only 50% further, but do only 10 % less damage. So the damage (on paper) was boosted in a way by 6.5% However now their explosion radius is 450 instead of 350 so you need target painters to capitalize on damage increase |
Nathanial Victor
Minmatar |
Posted - 2008.11.12 05:12:00 - [ 10]
another question...
would it be wiser to fit faction launchers (how i roll now) or should i train up to use T2 so i can use T2 missiles?
is using T2 missiles really cost effective on missions? they are pretty expensive |
Velasi |
Posted - 2008.11.12 05:15:00 - [ 11]
CNR lauchers for pve and t2 launchers for pvp |
Sofia Kyodai
Caldari
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.11.12 05:16:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: Nathanial Victor
another question...
would it be wiser to fit faction launchers (how i roll now) or should i train up to use T2 so i can use T2 missiles?
is using T2 missiles really cost effective on missions? they are pretty expensive
For a CNR, the best ISK/ performance launchers are Caldari Navy Cruise. For torps you need t2 i'm afraid, coz of torp range limit forcing oyu to use Javelins. And no, t2 torps arent expensive, at most 2-3 times the price of t1, and about 1/4 to 1/3 the price of faction. In terms of cost efficiency, faction torps arent worth it. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project |
Posted - 2008.11.12 06:42:00 - [ 13]
I have not tested the 'new' missiles after the patch in TQ yet so take what I say with grain of salt.
Now - pefore patch cnr outperformed golem in the hands of competent pilot - it is my belief, that they will be more or less on same performance level now. CNR has a bit higher 'base' damage in the form of RoF bonus and one extra rig slot while Golem has painter and missile explocion velocity bonus. Last one was 'meh' before patch but might actually mean something now. Depending how the final missile damage formula turned out.
For launchers - go T2. It's a lot less hassle to change ammo after weapon grouping and in addition Rage missiles got noticeable changes in patch and will no longer kill your capacitor recharge rate.
That is for cruise missiles - while it is possible to fit both platforms with torps also, it's overall cheaper in golem, as to make it fit in CNR I had to use officer RCU (as I used also afterburner and heavy cap injector). |
Kadoes Khan |
Posted - 2008.11.12 07:07:00 - [ 14]
Quote:
not sure i can spring for some of those modules/rigs. but i'm sure i can deduce a similar fit that should work with relatively the same results as yours if it's THAT good.
lets say you fit t1 rigs... (no implants)... how far out do those torps go?
i'm also considering using one of those tractor beam slots for a drone mod to reach out there a bit more. what do you think?
Going down to T2 rigs loses 10% range not a great idea but if you have to I think you still shoot to around 60km with javelins(50-55ish with their screwball range). Drone mod is good stuff you may also want to grab a small remote rep to repair your drones if they get smacked around a bit. The shield booster is really the biggest expense on that ship and it's worth the ISK(I spent about 1.3B on it). You can ditch a CN BCU(the 4th doesn't make a big difference) for a PDU for more PG to change the booster to a standard XL(this drops your tank a LOT though), having a full set of hardeners especially CN invulns is also pricey though so if you can fit T2 you could switch those out you'd just have to be a little more careful with aggro. You could also look at picking up low grade crystals to supplement your tank(or using synth blue pill boosters). Originally by: Carniflex
I have not tested the 'new' missiles after the patch in TQ yet so take what I say with grain of salt.
Now - pefore patch cnr outperformed golem in the hands of competent pilot - it is my belief, that they will be more or less on same performance level now. CNR has a bit higher 'base' damage in the form of RoF bonus and one extra rig slot while Golem has painter and missile explocion velocity bonus. Last one was 'meh' before patch but might actually mean something now. Depending how the final missile damage formula turned out.
For launchers - go T2. It's a lot less hassle to change ammo after weapon grouping and in addition Rage missiles got noticeable changes in patch and will no longer kill your capacitor recharge rate.
That is for cruise missiles - while it is possible to fit both platforms with torps also, it's overall cheaper in golem, as to make it fit in CNR I had to use officer RCU (as I used also afterburner and heavy cap injector).
It depends on what you mean by "outperform" as a torp platform the golem far exceeds the CNR post patch. Pre-patch it was a toss up, CNR did more raw damage on paper but the higher volley damage of the golem often result in similar kill times(although usually it ends up favoring CNR). As you seem to have noticed the painter bonus and explosion velocity bonus of the golem is really what pushes things ahead post-patch. This is not to say the CNR is not good but previously where you could argue back and forth between CNR and Golem it's now quite safe to say the Golem wins. I don't recommend cruise platforms at all unless you simply do not have the skills for T2 torps. |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics |
Posted - 2008.11.12 07:12:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Nathanial Victor
not sure i can spring for some of those modules/rigs. but i'm sure i can deduce a similar fit that should work with relatively the same results as yours if it's THAT good.
lets say you fit t1 rigs... (no implants)... how far out do those torps go?
i'm also considering using one of those tractor beam slots for a drone mod to reach out there a bit more. what do you think?
Should be able to get out to the 40k range or so with level 5 skills, 1x range and velocity t1 rig. With javelins, 60k isn't too far out there...which is why I like fitting t2 launchers |
Wannabe Gangsta |
Posted - 2008.11.12 08:52:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
(a single torp needs 3 defenders to take it down).
Is this true? |
Guygeboe
Caldari
Viper-Squad
Triumvirate. |
Posted - 2008.11.12 09:00:00 - [ 17]
|
Kadoes Khan |
Posted - 2008.11.12 09:13:00 - [ 18]
|
Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative. |
Posted - 2008.11.12 09:16:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 12/11/2008 04:43:11
Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 12/11/2008 04:42:55
Originally by: Nathanial Victor
really?
torp golem over cruise golem?
i understand the rapid pwnership of bs/bc but missions have SO MANY cruisers (and it just takes too long with medium drones, especially now)
i figured a cruise golem would be the new king, but by all means enlighten me !
[Golem, Missions]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Fit hardeners to mission obviously but just paint things up and shoot away. With 2 bonused painters even cruisers have a massive sig radius. Also cruise lose a very significant portion of their DPS to defenders whereas torps lose none(a single torp needs 3 defenders to take it down).
3 tractors and no salvager? |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project |
Posted - 2008.11.12 10:08:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
It depends on what you mean by "outperform" as a torp platform the golem far exceeds the CNR post patch. Pre-patch it was a toss up, CNR did more raw damage on paper but the higher volley damage of the golem often result in similar kill times(although usually it ends up favoring CNR). As you seem to have noticed the painter bonus and explosion velocity bonus of the golem is really what pushes things ahead post-patch. This is not to say the CNR is not good but previously where you could argue back and forth between CNR and Golem it's now quite safe to say the Golem wins.
I don't recommend cruise platforms at all unless you simply do not have the skills for T2 torps.
I measure performance as mission combat phase completion time. Ie average time between first hit in mission to last hit in mission. It's relatively easy to extract from combat logs using eve combat log analyzer so all I have to do is to note mission name and equipment used for later statisticks. Pre patch gank fitted torpedo CNR was minute or two faster in longer missions than Golem. After patch - no idea. When using torps I would put my isk on Golem as signature and target speed seem to have bigger effect on actual damage. Have not testted torpedo stuff on sisi of late. Now - as far as cruise platforms go they do (did?) outperform torpedoes in some situations. Particular missions themselves are not worth ranting about tho. What will count is real average mission completion time on your actual missionrunning location. For example in The Forge torps were slightly faster in ~2/3 rd of missions offered and slower in ~1/3 rd of missions offered. When averaging over whole mission pool though cruise missiles had slight edge over torps in that region - difference was within approx 5% tho so taking into account that it was under 200 missions (around 10..12 different ones) then the mission pool itself was insufficent to claim superiority of either with any reasonable confidence. Cruise seemed to have slight edge over torps for me in The Forge. In areas where most NPC's are closer to your ship torps might and most likely do outperform cruise missiles. After patch - I do not have any data to claim either way. New fury cruise missiles seem rather nice in combination with heavy painting and rigor rigs, not sure what way numbers ended up in actual patch but last I looked at them fury cruise had max range of approx 200 km and approx same dps as javelin torps (and actually better signature than javelins when using rigor rigs and lev 4 in guided missile precision). Then again on the other side those die to defenders in one hit while it takes 3 defenders to kill torp - so for all practical purposes torps are immune to defenders in missions. So conclusion ? I would have to agree to suggestion of going for Golem based on the data I have so far. Time will show how the actual stuff settles down ofc, but that would be safer bet. |
Ghengis Tia |
Posted - 2008.11.12 16:43:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Beaty Swollocks
Hi there, well im just closing in now on either enough isk or lp to buy either a CNR or Golem, but i cant decide which one will perform better.
What with the missile changes coming in how will they pan out now ?
i haven't been on sisi as i have been away for a while so don't know what the changes are like.
How are cruise and torps fairing on sisi ?
Which in the minds of the people who have tested out sisi (for which your info i am greatfull for) would perform better -
A Cruise//Torp CNR?
A Cruise//Torp Golem ?
[Tho i haven't trained up for a golem yet, been getting my support//sheild//drone skills in place 1st]
Buying a CNR w/LP's is a real waste of LP's. As they are going for 385M on contract in the Forge or Citadel, after you buy the standard Raven and Nexus Chip your rate of return on the LP's is less than 500 Isk per LP. As I've mentioned in other posts, I have fitted my cruise CNR with 3 Warhead Rigor Catalyst I's and two Small Pithi SBs. No problem at all with cap or shields. In spite of the missile nerf, I should still be able to get thru Level IV's without much difficulty, as the rigs are plenty of compensation. Haven't been in-game yet since the patch, will update with results in 24 hours. |
Hsallie
Gallente
Rampaging Malicious Scoundrels |
Posted - 2008.11.12 18:26:00 - [ 22]
Edited by: Hsallie on 12/11/2008 18:27:36 Originally by: Nathanial Victor
another question...
would it be wiser to fit faction launchers (how i roll now) or should i train up to use T2 so i can use T2 missiles?
is using T2 missiles really cost effective on missions? they are pretty expensive
if you plan on using torps for missions, you will need the T2 jav torps or some battleship rats will be out of your range. And about the price it may look as a bad trade off but it really isn't that bad, as you will only need about 20 torps(5 vollys) maximum to take down any of the rats in the missions. as an example i spent 50 mill on torps before i sat out to do alot of missions, and when i had to restock on missiles i had made about 2 bill isk  edit: mind you i have a no faction loot on my ship, it is purely T2 with the exception of the Target Painters as the best named ones are better than T2 varriants  |
Srioghal moDhream |
Posted - 2008.11.12 20:57:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 12/11/2008 04:43:11
Edited by: Kadoes Khan on 12/11/2008 04:42:55
Originally by: Nathanial Victor
really?
torp golem over cruise golem?
i understand the rapid pwnership of bs/bc but missions have SO MANY cruisers (and it just takes too long with medium drones, especially now)
i figured a cruise golem would be the new king, but by all means enlighten me !
[Golem, Missions]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Fit hardeners to mission obviously but just paint things up and shoot away. With 2 bonused painters even cruisers have a massive sig radius. Also cruise lose a very significant portion of their DPS to defenders whereas torps lose none(a single torp needs 3 defenders to take it down).
There is no reason to wast money on CN hardeners with the exception of the invulnerability field. The other specific CN hardeners only offer a small reduction in cap usage (12 second cycle instead of 10). |
Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva |
Posted - 2008.11.12 21:23:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Malcanis
3 tractors and no salvager?
Make sense. salvaging guristas or serpentis wrecks is a waste of time, and blood raider/sancha not very profitable either. |
Hostile UA
Bad Robot Inc.
Red Alliance |
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:17:00 - [ 25]
Torp for now has 280 hp - and it takes 4 def to take it down. (70*4)
So (me stupid) what about that +50% range boost of Javelins? I don't get it whare's the boost? Still have 55km on Golem with 1 velocity rig - so as before patch. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project |
Posted - 2008.11.12 22:30:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: Srioghal moDhream
There is no reason to wast money on CN hardeners with the exception of the invulnerability field. The other specific CN hardeners only offer a small reduction in cap usage (12 second cycle instead of 10).
They are relatively cheap way to save some cpu if that is the issue. Pretty useful in most CNR setups. Altho yeah - not an issue really in Golem - even with T2 torp setup. |
Kadoes Khan |
Posted - 2008.11.12 23:43:00 - [ 27]
Quote:
There is no reason to wast money on CN hardeners with the exception of the invulnerability field. The other specific CN hardeners only offer a small reduction in cap usage (12 second cycle instead of 10).
Not having tactical shield manipulation 4 is a good reason I think? Quote:
3 tractors and no salvager?
I tractor everything into a nice blob and come back in a hurricane with 3x salvage rigs and 8 salvagers and clean everything up in about 2 minutes. I have enough trouble getting everything into the blob before I kill everything trying to salvage at the same time would slow me down. Plus not everything is worth salvaging, really I'd say only angel/sansha are worthwhile to salvage, but that doesn't stop me looting and selling/refining the loot. Hell blood raiders have nice loot(2.5M tachs 4tw!) |
Kerfira
Kerfira Corp |
Posted - 2008.11.13 00:29:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Malcanis
3 tractors and no salvager?
You get a bonus to tractors.... So, tractor all wrecks to one location (do this while shooting), loot all you can (in most missions you can have all the loot in the Marauder), then if the mission rats are worth it or there are remaining loot, come back in a salvage destroyer/cruiser/battlecruiser to do the salvaging and remaining loot (I use a BC, 7 salvagers, 1 tractor, and 900+ m3 cargo). Contrary to all common belief, salvaging guristas is not a waste of time since you get quite a lot of burned logic circuits. |
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