| Author |
Topic |
Artaanis |
Posted - 2008.10.21 18:59:00 - [ 1]
How does this work and what is it? Can aggro or something I read in another post? Thanks... |
Mithos Victus
Aurelius Federation
Fatal Ascension |
Posted - 2008.10.21 19:04:00 - [ 2]
Edited by: Mithos Victus on 21/10/2008 19:14:54 Originally by: Artaanis
How does this work and what is it? Can aggro or something I read in another post? Thanks...
- You, mining at a belt in a ship in high security space
- You, jettisoning a can of ore at said belt, and filling the can
- You, warping off to your station to grab your hauler when the jetcan fills
- Can flipper, uncloaking at your belt since they have been sitting there watching you drooling
- Can Flipper, taking 1 piece of your ore, jettisoning their own can, transferring all your ore to their can
- Can flipper, cloaking again at your belt
- You, flying into your belt in a hauler, thinking "Oh, that's strange, my can is yellow now, must be a UI bug"
- You, grabbing all the ore from the can, while not realizing you just flagged yourself to the flipper, who can now fire upon your ship
- Can flipper, decloaking, tackling (immobilizing) your ship, and ransoming you for ISKies, or just blowing you up for the sport of it
- You, being very distraught that you took ore from that yellow can
- Can flipper, feeding off empire jetcan miner tears
or simpler and more frequent:
- You, mining at a belt in a ship in high security space
- You, jettisoning a can of ore at said belt, and filling the can
- Can flipper, warping into your belt, stealing your ore
- You, foolishly firing on the now blinking red flipper, thus flagging yourself for him to fire on you in return
- Can flipper, tackling (immobilizing) your ship, and ransoming you for ISKies, or just blowing you up for the sport of it
- You, being very distraught that you fired on that blinky red blip on the overview
- Can flipper, feeding off empire jetcan miner tears
Someone once told me that if the flipper yanks your ore and flags himself, he can then place it back in your can, and thus effectively put his own loot in your can, so when you see a still white can in space, but take the ore from it, you flag yourself. However, a buddy and I tried this, and it doesn't work. At least it did not for us. So...  Don't take from anything yellow! Ever! Pro Tip: Never turn off any ingame window prompts related to security or criminal actions. You prolly ganged up with some random miner friends at one point and shared a mutual jetcan, and when that annoying and omnipresent message came up about how it is a criminal act to steal other people's goods, you prolly clicked "Do not show me again" which is a bad idea. Go into your ESC menu and to the Reset Settings or some such tab, and reset your ingame prompts. This is also especially important for Empire-->Low/Null security stargates as you will not accidentally travel into low or null sec because you will get a handy prompt warning you of the potential danger each time. |
Dyaven
Nexus.6
The Jagged Alliance |
Posted - 2008.10.21 19:51:00 - [ 3]
I like that first idea, never thought of it and gives me an excuse to train for Stealth Bombers.  Might try that sometime. |
Lando Paladin |
Posted - 2008.10.21 19:53:00 - [ 4]
also if you really must jetcan fire out about 10 cans and give them all silly names as long as possible with as many up and down combos sort of AZduWtjWmsU etc. then put all your ore in one of them at random. it will mean the thief has to go through each can to find the can you are using then when they do the swap, they will have to rename the can as well which slows then down since first you will see "Cargo Container" displayed amidst all the empty random cans with 1 ore in them.
Also when they do steal your can dont shoot at them, bore them to death. i managed to get a can flipper to attack me first and get himself concorded he was so fed up with my vague musings about the nature of the veldspar market. he asked me why i didnt just shoot him. i pointed out my osprey had a full rack of mining lasers and therefore i had XXXX all to shoot him with. i think thats what tipped him over the edge TBH.
they power their ships on carebear tears, laugh at them and power yours on griefer boredom :) |
Letouk Mernel
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.21 19:56:00 - [ 5]
It's called "flipping" because the thief "flips" the ownership of the can to himself (he steals stuff from your can and puts it in his own can, then waits for you to take your stuff back, which will give him permission to shoot you).
It's a way to abuse cleverly use the flagging mechanic that says "if someone steals from your can, you can shoot them." The thief relies on you being angry and not thinking straight in order to trick you into flagging yourself to him. |
Tzar'rim |
Posted - 2008.10.22 08:04:00 - [ 6]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 22/10/2008 08:12:15
Not looking at the steps (explained above), it's a great way to have some fun, make a profit while not losing security status. Essentially you go up to someone in a small ship that looks like an easy snack, nick something from them and hope they'll be stupid.
As odd as it sounds high sec piracy is more of a hunting thing than a short attention span "kill everything in sight". It takes more time and effort, if you do it right the whole thing revolves around control and knowing/using the game rules. You essentially try to outclass/smart the opponent rather than use brute force. If you need more questions answered look me up in game, bit busy IRL atm but you can always send me a mail. |
Lanea Hammersong |
Posted - 2008.10.22 11:45:00 - [ 7]
Phase 2:
Have the force recon ship uncloak, tackle the high-sec pirate, and see how well he built his tank to go after miners. |
Latrodanes
Independent Combat Support Services |
Posted - 2008.10.22 12:14:00 - [ 8]
Originally by: Lanea Hammersong
Phase 2:
Have the force recon ship uncloak, tackle the high-sec pirate, and see how well he built his tank to go after miners.
Exactly this. Make sure Force recon or SB is in your corp so he's got Kill Rights as well. Then sit back and watch the fun. |
Tzar'rim |
Posted - 2008.10.22 12:24:00 - [ 9]
Uhm no, unless the pirate isn't paying attention and isn't prepared. I have yet to be caught by any recon although many have tried. It's called being aligned and having your warp destination targeted, that combined with the uncloaking sound means you can't get me.
Besides, if you check for extra corp memebers in local and one is old enough to be in a cloaker while you haven't seen him yet you're extra careful. |
BushRaider |
Posted - 2008.10.22 12:30:00 - [ 10]
We just use an alt or other corp member in the fleet in a tackling equipped BC to lurk around the belt. Prevention is better than cure, right? Only had 1 can flipped in 4 months of playing...seen it happen to others though, plenty of times, whilst our mining chars carry on in relative safety. |
Letouk Mernel
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.22 12:51:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Uhm no, unless the pirate isn't paying attention and isn't prepared. I have yet to be caught[...]
Well, can flipping only works if the miner isn't paying attention and isn't prepared, too. Same vein. He didn't mean you. His advice was for dealing with the more stupid flippers out there. Believe me, they're not all geniuses. |
Tzar'rim |
Posted - 2008.10.22 13:02:00 - [ 12]
If someone goes hunting I expect him to pay attention and be prepared, if someone is mining I expect him to be half afk and hope him to become active.
Preparation and effort is everything. |
Ana Vyr
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.22 16:08:00 - [ 13]
Seems to me the only folks who are going to fall for a can flipper's little games are newbs. I would futher imagine that any serious/experienced pirates have much more lucrative things to do than try and trick newbs into getting griefed out of their ships. Therefore, my opinion of can flippers is that they are cowards, essentially, who can't deal with a real fight.
Is this about right? |
Tzar'rim |
Posted - 2008.10.22 16:13:00 - [ 14]
You assume too much, and you know what they say about assumptions. You're wrong on all counts. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation |
Posted - 2008.10.22 16:18:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Ana Vyr
Seems to me the only folks who are going to fall for a can flipper's little games are newbs. I would futher imagine that any serious/experienced pirates have much more lucrative things to do than try and trick newbs into getting griefed out of their ships. Therefore, my opinion of can flippers is that they are cowards, essentially, who can't deal with a real fight.
Is this about right?
- Empire miner, assumes much, thinks little
- Drones on aggressive
- Drones deployed and idle waiting for belt spawns
- Can flipper steals ore within firing range of your drones
- You fail
- Can flipper scoops up carebear tears
|
Ana Vyr
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.22 16:19:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
You assume too much, and you know what they say about assumptions. You're wrong on all counts.
OK, then fill me in. What reason would anyone have for doing this other than pure sadistic pleasure? Do experienced miners fall for this? Can you make substancial ISK doing this? I'm trying desperately to figure out why a lot of interaction in this game is centered around games of cat and mouse where the outcome seems fairly predictable. Gate camps, can flipping, scams, wardecking newb corps...these techniques seem kinda cheap to me. |
Ana Vyr
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.22 16:22:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Ana Vyr
Seems to me the only folks who are going to fall for a can flipper's little games are newbs. I would futher imagine that any serious/experienced pirates have much more lucrative things to do than try and trick newbs into getting griefed out of their ships. Therefore, my opinion of can flippers is that they are cowards, essentially, who can't deal with a real fight.
Is this about right?
- Empire miner, assumes much, thinks little
- Drones on aggressive
- Drones deployed and idle waiting for belt spawns
- Can flipper steals ore within firing range of your drones
- You fail
- Can flipper scoops up carebear tears
Isn't it kinda stupid to leave your drones on agressive? |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation |
Posted - 2008.10.22 16:34:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: Ana Vyr
Isn't it kinda stupid to leave your drones on agressive?
Are you saying that it is obvious that drones set to aggressive will randomly fire on a player flagged to you within 8km even when you have not been fired upon? You are either a genius, or you like to act like you know everything even when you don't. I will be the first to admit I had to be told this, to understand it, or else I would have eventually had to figure it out the hard way. Nothing wrong with being schooled, one way or the other. But if you assume everything is so obvious, then you will miss the obvious. |
Ana Vyr
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.22 16:39:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Ana Vyr
Isn't it kinda stupid to leave your drones on agressive?
Are you saying that it is obvious that drones set to aggressive will randomly fire on a player flagged to you within 8km even when you have not been fired upon?
You are either a genius, or you like to act like you know everything even when you don't.
I will be the first to admit I had to be told this, to understand it, or else I would have eventually had to figure it out the hard way. Nothing wrong with being schooled, one way or the other.
But if you assume everything is so obvious, then you will miss the obvious.
I really did assume that agressive meant just that and that the drones would attack anything in range that was flagged hostile. The newbie guide says, in a nutshell, don't try and play AFK. That's the only reason I can think of to have drones set on aggressive while mining unless you are too lazy to target and select "engage target". You are kind of asserting that the reason for bullying inexperienced players is to teach them the ropes? Are all can flippers this altruistic? |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation |
Posted - 2008.10.22 16:59:00 - [ 20]
Edited by: Mendolus on 22/10/2008 17:03:39 Originally by: Ana Vyr
I really did assume that agressive meant just that and that the drones would attack anything in range that was flagged hostile. The newbie guide says, in a nutshell, don't try and play AFK. That's the only reason I can think of to have drones set on aggressive while mining unless you are too lazy to target and select "engage target".
You are kind of asserting that the reason for bullying inexperienced players is to teach them the ropes? Are all can flippers this altruistic?
You are assuming I am a can flipper. Excellent. Because I'm not.  Why are you asking questions if you never listen to the answers? Are you bored? Edit: Btw, this is a waste of time, the question has already been answered, all you are doing is arguing opinion versus evidentiary deduction. Fly safe... or not, we'll see how far your assumptions get you. Good luck out there. |
Ana Vyr
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.22 17:14:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Mendolus
Edited by: Mendolus on 22/10/2008 17:03:39
Originally by: Ana Vyr
I really did assume that agressive meant just that and that the drones would attack anything in range that was flagged hostile. The newbie guide says, in a nutshell, don't try and play AFK. That's the only reason I can think of to have drones set on aggressive while mining unless you are too lazy to target and select "engage target".
You are kind of asserting that the reason for bullying inexperienced players is to teach them the ropes? Are all can flippers this altruistic?
You are assuming I am a can flipper. Excellent. Because I'm not.
Why are you asking questions if you never listen to the answers? Are you bored?
Edit:
Btw, this is a waste of time, the question has already been answered, all you are doing is arguing opinion versus evidentiary deduction.
Fly safe... or not, we'll see how far your assumptions get you. Good luck out there.
Sorry Mendolus, your previous answer sounded a bit pointed and condescending. I apologize. I'm just trying to figure out what ISN'T obvious with regards to can flipping and other techniques that seem extremely lopsided in favor of the players with the longest tenure in the game. So far, all I can come up with is these things are simply done because bullying is an allowed mechanic in game. There doesn't seem to be any reasons other than sadism, self esteem boosting and so on. This game has such potential for depth in terms of roleplaying and tactics and strategy from what I can tell and from what I've read. To see such shallow endeavors such as can flipping from experienced players has me kinda confused. To each his own, I suppose. You fly safe too. |
Tzar'rim |
Posted - 2008.10.22 17:30:00 - [ 22]
OK, here's the deal;
- it makes good cash compared to low sec piracy (unless you're very lucky)
- people in general are stupid, ingame age doesn't change that, ie; older players make (the same) mistakes still
- if you're not interested in 0.0 blobfare nor want to lose sec status (just annoying and not handy) there's not much left
- active people who put in a tad of effort I can't touch, only people who can't be bothered to think about what they're doing, that's their choice.
|
Ana Vyr
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.22 17:33:00 - [ 23]
Thank you, Tzar'rim.
So, it is lucrative. I knew there had to be something more to it. |
The Geoman |
Posted - 2008.10.22 17:36:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Ana Vyr
Sorry Mendolus, your previous answer sounded a bit pointed and condescending. I apologize.
I'm just trying to figure out what ISN'T obvious with regards to can flipping and other techniques that seem extremely lopsided in favor of the players with the longest tenure in the game. So far, all I can come up with is these things are simply done because bullying is an allowed mechanic in game. There doesn't seem to be any reasons other than sadism, self esteem boosting and so on.
This game has such potential for depth in terms of roleplaying and tactics and strategy from what I can tell and from what I've read. To see such shallow endeavors such as can flipping from experienced players has me kinda confused. To each his own, I suppose.
You fly safe too.
Well I think you're correct, for the most part. For experienced pilots, can-flipping would largely be done out of boredom, or just to be a jerk (a common past time for some, lol). I've been witness to many chats in Local where I can see how much they enjoy the reactions that they get, and this might be payment enough for them. It can be a good way for some newer pilots to jump into pvp, too, I suppose. As to its profitability, I think it is safe to say that it isn't a big money-maker in the long run, much like being an ore thief. You'd be far better of doing other things to make ISK, including mining, lol. But if you can bag, say, a hulk loaded with t2 fittings and even some rigs, a kill can be worth a fair amount from time to time. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation |
Posted - 2008.10.22 17:38:00 - [ 25]
Originally by: Ana Vyr
Sorry Mendolus, your previous answer sounded a bit pointed and condescending. I apologize.
It was, I too apologize. Although it has had the intended effect nonetheless. You are listening now, and that was the intention. Originally by: Ana Vyr
I'm just trying to figure out what ISN'T obvious with regards to can flipping and other techniques that seem extremely lopsided in favor of the players with the longest tenure in the game. So far, all I can come up with is these things are simply done because bullying is an allowed mechanic in game. There doesn't seem to be any reasons other than sadism, self esteem boosting and so on.
It is fairly obvious, that a veteran miner, would rarely if ever fall for the usual or even clever tricks deployed by can flippers. However, getting to that point, is a journey, and you may not ever know ALL the tricks even if you know most of them, as the game is always changing. Originally by: Ana Vyr
This game has such potential for depth in terms of roleplaying and tactics and strategy from what I can tell and from what I've read. To see such shallow endeavors such as can flipping from experienced players has me kinda confused. To each his own, I suppose.
The game has a duality to it. While I covet the notion that EVE is a sandbox and that no one is safe be they predator or prey, it also reveals the more insidious aspect of popular culture. Pedantic philosophical and psychological arguments aside, people are less apt then ever before to wholly understand moral and ethical continuity or even the dichotomy of parallelism (and yes, I did intend those two words in conjunction) in popular culture versus the real and unreal. It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, and unless that someone is you, what does it matter, right? Pew pew internet spaceships is serious business! is the common pathology you will hear in these forums. But let's face it, all those people claiming none of this matters in the least and it's all in the name of fun and good times, keep coming back for more, don't they? Originally by: Ana Vyr
You fly safe too.
Indeed, I try, though it does not always go in my favor. Fly safe. |
Ana Vyr
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.22 18:00:00 - [ 26]
Edited by: Ana Vyr on 22/10/2008 18:00:40
I must admit that I have a very difficult time separating myself from the morality I excercise in real life in games like these. I end up feeling bad for the folks I have "wronged". It's a weakness, I suppose, when it comes to playing space pirates. Maybe I'm too old (41) to genuinely be able to separate myself and become something "evil". I just can't forget the folks playing other characters are real people. So, I can get behind the idea of a war between two organizations, or even a vendetta between two comparably skilled players, but I can't bring myself to just grief people for the heck of it. Empathy for folks I've never met in a purely virtual environment? I wish I could figure out if I should feel proud of that or ashamed of it. |
Tzar'rim |
Posted - 2008.10.22 18:19:00 - [ 27]
This games revolves around PVP in all it's facets and rewards effort while severely punishing non-effort. Shooting people in a FPS isn't amoral since that's the point of the game, same applies here. The fact that some people see the game differently (or just wish away the bad people) doesn't change what the game actually is.
Lets assume you mine/produce stuff and someone put 100 products on the market for 1 mil each, you put your stuff on the market for 900k and kinda force him to lower his price too. This interaction between the two of you made him a net loss of 10 mil. How is that different from blowing up a ship of his worth 10 mil?
Besides, it's a form of interaction which good, ANY interaction is good since this is afterall an MMO and not some solo game.
|
Gregor Vernof
Steaming Hot Gallente Chicks Gone Wild
|
Posted - 2008.10.22 18:27:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Ana Vyr
I must admit that I have a very difficult time separating myself from the morality I excercise in real life in games like these. I end up feeling bad for the folks I have "wronged". It's a weakness, I suppose, when it comes to playing space pirates. Maybe I'm too old (41) to genuinely be able to separate myself and become something "evil". I just can't forget the folks playing other characters are real people. So, I can get behind the idea of a war between two organizations, or even a vendetta between two comparably skilled players, but I can't bring myself to just grief people for the heck of it. Empathy for folks I've never met in a purely virtual environment? I wish I could figure out if I should feel proud of that or ashamed of it.
There used to be an ending on MMO that can sum it up for a lot of players out there that pirate, thieve, and the like... RPG.... Essentially your more mature players (not to be read as "older") that choose a EVE role on the shadier side of the "law" do so for the role play effect of that character. We may not fully immerse ourselves in to strict "role play" speak and all the possible elitist snobbery that can be associated with hard core RP'ers, but we do try to fulfill the role we have assigned to that character. It is all too easy to see all Pirate and Thieves in the light of the 12 yr old "L33T" dude running around being an asp "just because." However that is simply just not the case. Hell even the "pirate" community can't decide who is right or wrong on this issue... you have low sec players disdaining hi sec players, all made fun of by null sec players. It all boils down to the fact that EVE is going to be as good as you decide to make it. Be aware, fly safe, take nothing for granted. Paranoia is one of the thing that sets this game apart from the herd....  |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation |
Posted - 2008.10.22 18:29:00 - [ 29]
Originally by: Ana Vyr
Edited by: Ana Vyr on 22/10/2008 18:00:40
I must admit that I have a very difficult time separating myself from the morality I excercise in real life in games like these. I end up feeling bad for the folks I have "wronged". It's a weakness, I suppose, when it comes to playing space pirates. Maybe I'm too old (41) to genuinely be able to separate myself and become something "evil". I just can't forget the folks playing other characters are real people. So, I can get behind the idea of a war between two organizations, or even a vendetta between two comparably skilled players, but I can't bring myself to just grief people for the heck of it. Empathy for folks I've never met in a purely virtual environment? I wish I could figure out if I should feel proud of that or ashamed of it.
Indeed, and it's not so much a matter of whether you do it or not, it's a matter of understanding what you're doing. There are two types of players who profit at the expense of others in a PvP backdrop. You want to run into the players who actually understand what they are doing, even if what they are doing is unscrupulous or an overt act against the will of another. Some of these veterans will even offer you advice on what you did wrong, how you can improve, and in rare cases might even reimburse your loss, and wish you well on your way. Others, might treat you with respect, even while they are ransoming you. You might even get a nice conversation going, all the while you are scrambled and immobilized. These are people, good or bad IRL, it does not really matter, they understand what they are doing in the game, and if you treat them with respect, they are likely to do the same to you regardless of whether they blow your ship up in the process. You do not want to run into the players who have no concept of reality, and are simply doing what they see everyone else do. These are mirrored personalities. It can even be argued they have no real substance while within the game, they are almost like NPCs, mindlessly repeating the same routines again and again with little scope or presence. You want to avoid these people, because be they good or bad IRL, they have no concept of it within the game and should opportunity arise they will act in any manner they see entertainment value in. They have no capacity for anything beyond the entertainment value. To them, the game is merely another way to get yer ****s and giggles. It is two dimensional. And that's fine, it is a game after all, but like I said before, if none of this matters to them, why do they keep coming back for more? Typically you will be able to tell one from the other rather quickly, and although neither may grant you a reprieve for discovering this, at least you will know when to bother interacting with one and not the other. |
Oniraf |
Posted - 2008.10.22 19:17:00 - [ 30]
Tel me if I got this right? I searh asteroid belts and find a miner with cargo cans I jettison an item from my cargo open his and put all his stuff in mine. No how do I get that ( my can) back to a dock if I log off to log my hauler on it will give him enough time to do same thing and it wont be there when I get back right? Please let me know. Thanks... |
|
All Channels
EVE New Citizens Q&A
