| Author |
Topic |
GFLTorque
Minmatar
Lethal Corp
Red Alliance |
Posted - 2004.06.26 03:19:00 - [ 61]
Entropy Test:
1400mm's - Ship Tempest
Target - Armageddon
(1)- 15km both Orbiting:
20/100 shots hit the Armageddon with BOTH ships orbiting each other at 15km (transverse 210 or so) Average Dmg with setup I had on was 195 per hit. ROF 11 seconds roughly per gun. DMG bonus was roughly 10.1x.
(2)- 25km both Orbiting:
58/100 shots hit the Armageddon with BOTH ships orbiting each other at 25km. Average Dmg with setup on was about 200 per hit. ROF 11 Seconds per gun. DMG bonus was roughly 10.1x.
(3) - 30km Both Orbiting:
41/50 shots hit the Armageddon with BOTH ships orbiting each other at 35km. Average Dmg setup on was about 215 per hit. ROF 11 seconds per gun. DMG bonus was roughly 10.1x.
(4) - 42km Both Orbiting:
42/50 shots hit the Armageddon with BOTH ships orbiting each other at 42km. Average DMG setup was about 350 per hit. ROF 11 seconds per gun. DMG bonus was roughly 10.1x.
Assumptions:
Assume 5 turrets are "fitted" ,11 second ROF(extremely hard to get). DMG bonus was roughly 10.1x. In the above scenario:
A) 15KM orbits = 100 Shots did 3,900pts DMG over 220 seconds.
DOT = 17pts damage per second
B) 25KM orbits = 100 Shots did 11,600pts DMG over 220 seconds.
DOT = 53pts damage per second
C) 30KM orbits = 50 shots did 8,815pts DMG over 110 seconds.
DOT = 80pts damage per second
D) 42KM orbits = 50 shots did 14,700pts DMG over 110 seconds.
DOT = 134pts damage per second
The VAST majority of PVP occurs at 20km. Stuff happens at 20km, warp disrupted, nosferatu etc.. etc... you get the picture.
The drop off in DOT (Damage per second) is too extreme now on the Tempest and its 1400mm guns in the following scenarios.
I propose the following for consideration:
1) Keep the "curve" the same, just slide it over, to make the major drop in damage occur at 15km, NOT 25km.
or
2) Alter the curve for less of a drop off. Should a gun so large that actually hits its target - do LESS damage the closer to the target you are?
Anyway,
*sigh*
I have been vocal with my dislike of the projectile changes, this is the most recent raw data I have, enjoy.
|
Jan Ors
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2004.06.26 05:29:00 - [ 62]
In the EVE universe, only railguns are given a reason for their (mediocre) tracking stats, and in balancing, lasers have assumed the position of highest accuracy. And this is fine, as when the new accuracy system is debugged, both weapon groups will probably be at the point where they are both balanced and effective.
But why is it that artillery have the poorest tracking? Because coupled with their high rof stats, surely this makes artillery miss enough as to not even live up to their -with Minmatar bonuses- slightly under-average DPS status? Don't artillery need a tracking boost? |
Naqq
stone grave haulage
PROBABLE CAUSE |
Posted - 2004.06.26 06:57:00 - [ 63]
Thank TomB and thanks CCP in general, I was so close to quittin but now I have seen the light ;) |
Iece Quaan
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore |
Posted - 2004.06.26 07:17:00 - [ 64]
Tested a bit with an interceptor ( crusader ) against some battleship pilots. I have Interceptor skill at level 1.
Crusader vs. Armageddon ( mega pulse beams, no tracking mods )
The geddon scored zero hits on me while I orbited at normal speed ( 545 m/s ) at 2.5k. Same for any range out to it's optimal ( around 16k ) and beyond. The geddon pilot only scored hits on me if I traveled directly away from him at normal speed. Even then he was hitting me only half the time. I was able to choose my distance with ease by zigzagging toward him.
Crusader vs. Typhoon ( 1200mm artillery )
The phoon pilot couldn't hit me at all. Not orbiting close, not orbiting at his optimal. Not even at around 40k when I was orbiting someone else. We did not try approaching or flying directly away from him, or stopping. The outcome for that would have been obvious.
On the other hand, using Gatling Pulse Lasers, I scored good hits on these battleships at about 3k to 1k. Even going 1000+ m/s, I was still damaging the phoon pilot enough that he had to shieldboost to keep me from biting his armor. Granted, drones could still kill me.
I think the tracking on the Gatling Pulse is fine, its right where it needs to be. But the large gun tracking needs to be looked at. Even in a frig, I should have been getting hit at their optimal ranges, going at a normal speed ( 545 m/s or so ). As a frig pilot, I think it's broken that I wasn't. However, if I close to 1-5k for warp scrambling purposes, and kick in the ABs for speed (1k - 1500+ m/s ), I should be immune to large turrets. That would be when they have to resort to drones or light missiles.
|
Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2004.06.26 08:15:00 - [ 65]
Its perfectly fine to not beeing hit by large anti-battleship-turrets in an interceptor. If you would be hit in an interceptor which has basespeed of 400-500m/s, what would a normal frigate pilot do? He has only around 200-350m/s basespeed, so he would get ripped by large turrets?! The fact that small turrets are able to track at >1000m/s is also very good, otherwise missleboats would rule. |
Bella Verde
Gallente |
Posted - 2004.06.26 08:37:00 - [ 66]
I think that the dual 425mms should track better than the dual 650 and repeating 800mms now that those both had their ROF increased. |
Zervun
Amarr
hirr
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2004.06.26 09:07:00 - [ 67]
Edited by: Zervun on 26/06/2004 09:13:41Edited by: Zervun on 26/06/2004 09:08:10 Originally by: Imhotep Khem
Originally by: Beseb
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
In reading my words it looks like I am asking for an optimal of 0km. Am I insane If so, why
Actually, the largest weapons can easily hit at 0m, provided you and your target are moving at 0ms.
It's all about tracking.
Thanks Beseb. Oh and, try not to shoot anymore of my corpmates
Unfortunatly this doesn't apply to proj's. Projs are seriously screwed. Battleship NOT moving under 10k distance vs. Battleship NOT moving under 10k distance = utter misses and piddly dink hits with 425mm the shortest range proj's. Something needs to be done. I've already started training hybrids & lasers. Soon proj's will be non existant. 1200 & 1400's can still hit at 40k plus.... ok.... but thats about it. And it's still crap damage... As it currently stands, there is absolutely no point in using projectiles over any other guns. I don't expect to hit cruisers non stop with my large projs, but I DO expect to hit decently on a BS within range, and hopefully get an occasional hit on a large size, slow cruiser ala maller. Currently this is NOT happening, and dev's are NOT responding. I've already switched over to other guns and started training them up. What worries me though is that it is narrowing the game down to just 2 gun types, making it less fun. More diversity = fun. Even though lasers had the **** end of the stick for a while they still had a bonus which was no ammo and people still used them. With the current set of changes there is NO point on using proj's. Using hybrids is so much better. The minor cap saving from proj's nowhere offsets the damage of the other 2 now. When I stand face to face with a BS with a tracking enhancer, a gyro 2 and a bunch of 425mm and miss 80 percent of the time it's just pointless, it's a waste of ammo. I really want this game to be diverse, but 2 weeks of no changes from a utter idiot change like this is just ridiculous. Something needed to be done, but regarless of all the posts that "something isn't right on test server" they went ahead with it. I want the changes, they make the game better, but when something is so obviously NOT right they need to make adjustwents way the f*** quicker than 2 weeks turn around. Essentially thats 14.95/2 $$ wasted if someone is only speced in proj's. I will still be playing eve, but I'm seriously frustrated. I specced my character as a close range proj user, which were never that overpowered. The 1400's obviously needed adjusting and perhaps the 800mm. However, now I have to start from scratch, for over 2 weeks. I can't hit other battleships, for more than 20 - 40 damage occasionally. Get a clue. 2 weeks no changes, nuff said. 425mm were never overpowered. Please make small changes constantly to respond to player issues, perhaps but a voting system on the forums. I and others don't feel like paying 10 bucks to retrain (half a month's cost) to train another gun. I loved my close range crappy proj's. You just needed to adjust it so that 1400's with EMP L didn't hit good under 20k. This is taking to much time for the cost of our money. Make little changes with feedback instead of such drastic ones with little information, it is not the smart way to run a programming business. |
SKiNNiEH |
Posted - 2004.06.26 09:40:00 - [ 68]
@ GFLTorque
Isnt the point of the 1400mm to use at long range? With that i mean that if you like shooting someone @ 15km because the vast majority of PVP happens there, that you dont equip 1400mm's?
This is a question, not a rant btw. |
Gart kaliso |
Posted - 2004.06.26 09:56:00 - [ 69]
*IF* you can stay over 54km away you will hit for more damage with a 1400 than anything else, however you will also need to be moving in a straight line towards or away from your target, and for him/her to considerately sit there not warping away for the length of time it takes you to kill someone nor tanking in any way shape or form as the DOT *appears* to be so slow as to be worthless; rather obvioulsy you cant web or jam him to stop any of that.
I think this fix appears to resolve everyting APART from projectiles so in those terms its a step forward from where we are atm, however projectiles specifically will need some attention.
|
Zervun
Amarr
hirr
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2004.06.26 09:59:00 - [ 70]
Edited by: Zervun on 26/06/2004 10:22:28
Yes the point of 1400's was to do long range, at the state they were in with emp L or phased plasma they were hitting well down to about 8k. These definately needed to be changed. But instead of doing a little change to test it out, they did an extremely drastic one. There were complains non stop under the patch forum about the fact that 1400's were now worthless on test. Currently they can't hit cruisers, well period.
Aside from that fact, I'm not a 1400 user and never have been. I ran a close range typhoon now an apoc. 425mm got hit with their horrid nerf bat because they took it out on all proj's. 425mm have absolutely no benefit anymore. Under about 8 - 10k they can't hit crap, bs's, cruisers, whatever. It bascially nullifies close range setups with proj's. Take any other laser, and hybrid and they will do better in the situation, the cap saving just isn't worth it when you aren't hitting anything.
Tracking needs to be adjusted, on ALL proj's. I know multiple tempest and or typhoon users that are just using 4x launchers and not shooting the large proj's, it isn't even worth the ammo cost anymore even with a tracker & a gyro.
I've tried 3x medium proj's 3x large projs, it seems the mediums are having the same tracking problems.
My latest test
1x Scout 650mm
1x Carbine 650mm
2x 425mm
1x carbine 650 (medium)
1x carbine 425 (medium)
2x Siege with torps
6x ogres
1x named tracking comp mid (sorry don't have skills enough for a tech II)
1x gyro in low
anywhere from 3 - 12k range vs. 1x commander bs, 2x cruiser bs
Hell keep in mind that these are mostly NAMED guns
literally 20-30 min to down on proj's alone. Torps in drones did easily 90% of damage to all. Was complete stalemate with the bs (neither of us moving stuck in roid belt) until I finished the cruisers off with drones/torps then set then on the bs. Took me greater than 5 - 10min with just the large proj's well within range to get the bs under 50% shields.
800+ emp L used
500+ phased plasma M used (had that in my medium guns)
Basically, the torps and drones did over 90% of the damage, waste of ammo completely on the proj's. I gave up killing with the proj's and just killed them with my 2 sieges and drones, went 10x quicker
have all my gunnery skills at IV
Please make proj's even worth the cost to run....
You don't know how many tempests I've run onto the last few days where you ask what are you equiping and they say 4x siege and maybe a heavy nos... and thats it. 2 weeks turnaround for a fubar this major = half our monthly cost to play eve. Very frustrating. Make little changes to adjust constantly instead of huge changes that are unbalanced that go for weeks. Very simple. I'm at least on the forums 10+ times a day. After reading weeks of people complaining how test was seriously not balanced and screwed, you patched it live. Changes needed to be done, but you did little from the feedback from the players who put their info in. I don't want to have to sit here and link the various threads that dealt with this that got ignored.
1. Change is good
2. Not listening to people testing = bad
3. When changes go live and are messed up because you didn't listen to number 2 = even worse
4. When these changes go live and it's over 2 weeks before you do a single thing = even even worse
Listen to your testers, balance things by making small changes, no reason to do a huge change
When you have huge complaints and obvious problems, pop out a small adjustment patch to see how it goes. You had
1. Far to less testing to make an adjustment that big
2. Didn't listen to the testers
And don't get me wrong, changes NEEDED to be made, but you didn't listen to the people who really could evaluate it. I mean seriously how MANY posts were in the patch forum saying things were just "not right". I don't even need to go into how many of those had no dev replies at all.... Instead of dealing with all this backlash because you don't pay attention, I'm sure the time spent actually reading testers input would weigh itself 10fold would pay itself in gold... AND serve the purpose that we as users think much more highly of the developers.
I'm not one to complain normally, I'm already training other skills, I just want this game to be diverse, and at the moment the dev's are NOT listening to the players when they spend time evaluating test stuff, and are NOT listening to the issues. If proj's are forever gone as a weapon it's just sad... I want to see people using them. We can all change, but it makes the game more cookie cutter when things like this are done. I know the dev's want people to be flying around in all kinds of different bs's with their race weapons etc etc, BS's equiping not only larges but medium weapons etc etc. But this is the wrong way to do it.
2 weeks, $7.50 to train a new weapon type while sitting in a station... |
Tsingtau
The Scope |
Posted - 2004.06.26 11:30:00 - [ 71]
Quite impressive how on the first page or so there are several responses by TomB but as soon as people start asking tougher question about projectiles and showing the outcome they have had from testing we get no response from him. We want a response on some of the issues that are being presented here about projectiles and the results we are getting in testing them.
When people feel like they are being ignored by the game developers it gives tham a bad feeling about this game and makes them wonder why they are still playing this game. I worry about where Eve will be in a year since the market for mmorpg's is getting a lot tougher with some major games being released at the end of this summer and I think with the number of people who are upset with the current state of things in EVE and the way CCP is handling things that there could be a massive amount of people leave for other games, and I do NOT want to see that happen.
Sorry I got way off topic there, I just think that EVE has so much potential and I do not want to see it die. |
Hellek
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2004.06.26 11:37:00 - [ 72]
Cesta: If the role of the Tachyon should be a long range devastator and its tracking would get nerfed more, then its range would need an increase on the other side. currently, it still has less range than 425mm rails and 1400mm projectiles (more optimal than 1400mm, but a lot less falloff), and I think thats okay. I like the Tachyon as it is, but I think that its damage should get a small increase. Really very small though, I am talking of 3-7%.
My opinion is that tracking should always match the range of a gun. The better the range, the worse the tracking. It currently is like this, i.e. a megabeam has better tracking and less range than a Tachyon. A pulselaser of course has even more tracking and even less range, etc.
A 425mm rail or a 1400mm artillery has more range than all lasers, and therefore also less tracking. |
Saladin
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan |
Posted - 2004.06.26 11:44:00 - [ 73]
I have to add my voice of disatisfaction with projectiles here. The tracking has got to improve. I cannot hit cruisers under 50km with 1400's and can't hit anything (battleships included) under 10km with the large 425's or 800's. I've tried running 2 tech 2 tracking computers (sacrificing 2 med slots) and did not see any improvement.
Of course I don't expect the devs to listen to me or other users, so I am adapting to the changes by not using minmatar ships any more. Not sure if that is what the devs had it mind when they talked of balancing. |
Arthur Guinness
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers |
Posted - 2004.06.26 11:50:00 - [ 74]
TomB please consider changing the 5% cap capacity bonus on the Apoc into a 5% laser dmg bonus.
The apoc got more base cap than any other ship, with the 10% cap usage reducation bonus it doesn't need that 5% capacity bonus anymore. Imo it gives the apoc to much cap to play with.
Also did you increase tracking on dual heavy turrets?
as imo the tracking compared to Mega Pulse/Beam is not that good.
But nice to see these changes. |
Jan Ors
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2004.06.26 11:53:00 - [ 75]
TomB, while the following post is stretching the boundaries of being on-topic, it has to be said.
All the laser changes are great, and at last we have standard crystals... however they should do equivalent damage in numbers to Depleted Uranium and Lead, which is 8, 16, and 32 from small to large - but they only do 4, 8 and 16. Which makes them ruddy pointless. Can we get a fix for this, and while you’re at it, have them on the market too?
|
DHU InMe
Gallente
Corsairs Inc.
The Spire Collective |
Posted - 2004.06.26 12:03:00 - [ 76]
Originally by: Jan Ors
TomB, while the following post is stretching the boundaries of being on-topic, it has to be said.
All the laser changes are great, and at last we have standard crystals... however they should do equivalent damage in numbers to Depleted Uranium and Lead, which is 8, 16, and 32 from small to large - but they only do 4, 8 and 16. Which makes them ruddy pointless. Can we get a fix for this, and while you’re at it, have them on the market too?
WHAT A NOOB. Laser time fire faster than hybrid !! Learn some basic math !! |
Jan Ors
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2004.06.26 12:08:00 - [ 77]
Originally by: DHU InMe
Originally by: Jan Ors
TomB, while the following post is stretching the boundaries of being on-topic, it has to be said.
All the laser changes are great, and at last we have standard crystals... however they should do equivalent damage in numbers to Depleted Uranium and Lead, which is 8, 16, and 32 from small to large - but they only do 4, 8 and 16. Which makes them ruddy pointless. Can we get a fix for this, and while you’re at it, have them on the market too?
WHAT A NOOB. Laser time fire faster than hybrid !! Learn some basic math !!
Great, a thick person.  Read what I say, and then post. Not the other way around. kthxbye |
SKiNNiEH |
Posted - 2004.06.26 12:32:00 - [ 78]
Originally by: Arthur Guinness
TomB please consider changing the 5% cap capacity bonus on the Apoc into a 5% laser dmg bonus.
The apoc got more base cap than any other ship, with the 10% cap usage reducation bonus it doesn't need that 5% capacity bonus anymore. Imo it gives the apoc to much cap to play with.
Also did you increase tracking on dual heavy turrets?
as imo the tracking compared to Mega Pulse/Beam is not that good.
But nice to see these changes.
Please leave the bonusses for the Apoc as it is... i'm running stuff sustained on it now, which i am very happy with.. The 5% more damage isn't as appealing to me personally. The new stats on the lasers should make you happy as it is :) (which is what this thread is really about, so sorry for the little Apoc deviation:) |
Hellek
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2004.06.26 12:32:00 - [ 79]
Originally by: Arthur Guinness
TomB please consider changing the 5% cap capacity bonus on the Apoc into a 5% laser dmg bonus.
The apoc got more base cap than any other ship, with the 10% cap usage reducation bonus it doesn't need that 5% capacity bonus anymore. Imo it gives the apoc to much cap to play with.
Also did you increase tracking on dual heavy turrets?
as imo the tracking compared to Mega Pulse/Beam is not that good.
But nice to see these changes.
The extra cap, and the better tanking abilities that come with it, are the only advantage apoc has. The drawbacks are things like smaller dronebay, very low CPU, unable to do any EW (due to CPU and lack of medslots) and such stuff, and of course that it can't deal as much damage as the other BS. I think its good as it is, it has many important weaknesses and one very important strength and I really think its pretty balanced. If you would make the cap bonus a damage bonus, then it would be almost equal to a megathron, only with a smaller dronebay and less CPU. |
MatStar
Caldari
Annihilate.
Avarice. |
Posted - 2004.06.26 13:32:00 - [ 80]
from what i can tell these balance changes make no difference to before the patch, these changes were called for by frigates who didnt like gettin wasted by bs large turrets.
B4 the patch a frigate Oribiting a bs at close range using a mwd didnt stand much chance of being hit by the bs. The bs just deploys drones or fires missiles at the frigate.
Unless the missiles/drones get properley changed so only certain types can hit the frigates this turret change is pointless.
Now its still the same unless the bs uses a small turret to hit the frigate. Which i can understand. Trying to hit a rabbit with a large howiziter is going to be harder than hitting a rabbit with a machine gun. (only using rabbit for size differences)
The main change that needs to be balanced is bs high slots/launcher slots/turret slots. Limiting something the Size of a Battleship to 6/7/8 turrets/launchers is insane. This needs to be changed even if some turret/launcher slots have to be certain sizes of turret/launchers.
This realism thing people seem to want with turret sizes is pointless, why not have a realistic space flight system?. Any1 ever played I-War? unless that comes into the game adding realism to one aspect and leaving another not realistic is pointless.....
Well thats my feelings on the matter, sorry if i dont make sense or my grammar/spelling is bad im dyslexic and i find it hard to write things without messing most of it up....... |
Mr Kebab |
Posted - 2004.06.26 14:17:00 - [ 81]
Edited by: Mr Kebab on 26/06/2004 14:22:01
One of our pilots wanted to test his armageddon tanking setup last night, so we took two Tempests out to optimal and let rip. He had a very good tanking setup, with >= 60% resist on all damage types and we couldn't crack him using our combined 10x1400s. We used every ammo type we could and settled on EMP L at its optimal range (he had a 60% resist on that). Even then, his cap held steady at 50-60% and we could shoot all day without beating his tank. When the wrecking shots finally came in, his armour dipped a touch more and then rebuilt without him having to worry. I have Surgical Strike, Min BS, Large Projall at 4, Rapid Firing5 and my corpmate has similar skills (we were both running Gyro 2s). All three ships were stationary. My conclusion? We need more DoT for 1400s. I'm not saying that one Tempest should be able to be crack a geddon without bothering to use launchers, but two surely should.
In contrast, one of our Raven pilots (new pilot, lowish skills) took him straight down with torps. It was expensive, but not as expensive as a new BS!! |
Mr Kebab |
Posted - 2004.06.26 14:19:00 - [ 82]
what is wrong with the word "Cr@ck" ? lol |
ActiveX
Dragon Wolf Enterprises
EVESpace |
Posted - 2004.06.26 14:37:00 - [ 83]
Originally by: GFLTorque
Entropy Test:
1400mm's - Ship Tempest
Target - Armageddon
(1)- 15km both Orbiting:
20/100 shots hit the Armageddon with BOTH ships orbiting each other at 15km (transverse 210 or so) Average Dmg with setup I had on was 195 per hit. ROF 11 seconds roughly per gun. DMG bonus was roughly 10.1x.
(2)- 25km both Orbiting:
58/100 shots hit the Armageddon with BOTH ships orbiting each other at 25km. Average Dmg with setup on was about 200 per hit. ROF 11 Seconds per gun. DMG bonus was roughly 10.1x.
(3) - 30km Both Orbiting:
41/50 shots hit the Armageddon with BOTH ships orbiting each other at 35km. Average Dmg setup on was about 215 per hit. ROF 11 seconds per gun. DMG bonus was roughly 10.1x.
(4) - 42km Both Orbiting:
42/50 shots hit the Armageddon with BOTH ships orbiting each other at 42km. Average DMG setup was about 350 per hit. ROF 11 seconds per gun. DMG bonus was roughly 10.1x.
Assumptions:
Assume 5 turrets are "fitted" ,11 second ROF(extremely hard to get). DMG bonus was roughly 10.1x. In the above scenario:
A) 15KM orbits = 100 Shots did 3,900pts DMG over 220 seconds.
DOT = 17pts damage per second
B) 25KM orbits = 100 Shots did 11,600pts DMG over 220 seconds.
DOT = 53pts damage per second
C) 30KM orbits = 50 shots did 8,815pts DMG over 110 seconds.
DOT = 80pts damage per second
D) 42KM orbits = 50 shots did 14,700pts DMG over 110 seconds.
DOT = 134pts damage per second
The VAST majority of PVP occurs at 20km. Stuff happens at 20km, warp disrupted, nosferatu etc.. etc... you get the picture.
The drop off in DOT (Damage per second) is too extreme now on the Tempest and its 1400mm guns in the following scenarios.
I propose the following for consideration:
1) Keep the "curve" the same, just slide it over, to make the major drop in damage occur at 15km, NOT 25km.
or
2) Alter the curve for less of a drop off. Should a gun so large that actually hits its target - do LESS damage the closer to the target you are?
Anyway,
*sigh*
I have been vocal with my dislike of the projectile changes, this is the most recent raw data I have, enjoy.
Well it looks like it is working just fine. Keep long range guns for long range, and keep short range guns for short range. Anyone who wants to use the same gun at any range is in need of some time in the frig. |
CCP TomB
 |
Posted - 2004.06.26 14:43:00 - [ 84]
Originally by: Tsingtau
Quite impressive how on the first page or so there are several responses by TomB but as soon as people start asking tougher question about projectiles and showing the outcome they have had from testing we get no response from him. We want a response on some of the issues that are being presented here about projectiles and the results we are getting in testing them.
I was asleep... |
Keeval
Gallente |
Posted - 2004.06.26 14:45:00 - [ 85]
Originally by: Tsingtau
Quite impressive how on the first page or so there are several responses by TomB but as soon as people start asking tougher question about projectiles and showing the outcome they have had from testing we get no response from him. We want a response on some of the issues that are being presented here about projectiles and the results we are getting in testing them.
When people feel like they are being ignored by the game developers it gives tham a bad feeling about this game and makes them wonder why they are still playing this game. I worry about where Eve will be in a year since the market for mmorpg's is getting a lot tougher with some major games being released at the end of this summer and I think with the number of people who are upset with the current state of things in EVE and the way CCP is handling things that there could be a massive amount of people leave for other games, and I do NOT want to see that happen.
Sorry I got way off topic there, I just think that EVE has so much potential and I do not want to see it die.
Err - it's weekend. Let the guy have a break. The idea was for people to test things over the weekend and then the Devs would work on it some more next week, once people have had their say. Regards, Keeval |
GFLTorque
Minmatar
Lethal Corp
Red Alliance |
Posted - 2004.06.26 14:47:00 - [ 86]
Originally by: SKiNNiEH
@ GFLTorque
Isnt the point of the 1400mm to use at long range? With that i mean that if you like shooting someone @ 15km because the vast majority of PVP happens there, that you dont equip 1400mm's?
This is a question, not a rant btw.
Thanks for the question. Actually I compiled research on the 2nd best damage producing Large Projectile gun the 1200. Sadly its DOT is worse then the 1400 at almost all ranges. Its missing was almost identical to the 1400. Consider this: If the 1400 is supposed to be a range gun, was is it only slightly better then some of the other races large turrets DOT at range now, but extremely worse DOT at short distances? Its like we have the cake but no icing on it. IMO, the 425Rail, the Tachyon, and the 1400mm should be the king of damage dealing for their races, with appropriate ship bonus's considered. Currently we dont even have an option to "Orbit at 50km, or Orbit at 40km." Scenario: Jumpgate ambush: A) Pilot autowarps into gate at 15km. Ambushers are there, hes setup with Hybrids, his attackers are were they normally are to warp disrupt, the pilot must move to his optimum range. Therefore he moves 5-10km max. Less time to optimum = greater chance to win the battle. B) Pilot autowarps into gate at 15km. Ambushers are there, hes setup with Energy weapons, his attackers are were they normally would be to warp disrupt, the pilot must move to his optimum range. Therefore he DOES NOT MOVE. Less time to optimum = greater chance to win the battle. C) Pilot autowarps into gate at 15km. Ambushers are there, hes setup with Projectile weapons, his attackers are were they normally would be to warp disrupt, the pilot must move to his optimum range. Therefore he MUST MOVE 10-20km and THEN COME TO A STOP and hope his ATTACKERS arent moving either by then. Less time to optimum = greater chance to win battle. Now before you reply, well he coulda used a smurgleblaster etc.... this scenario is all the top guns, and standard deep space loadouts. Its a real world scenario, and that is what I trust we are trying to tweek the game too. The above opnion is my own, but in more then a year of fighting in Stain from MOO, RUS, M3G4, the Curse Alliance and many other good PVP corps, I feel comfortable stating it. Hope you can see where I am coming from even if others have different views. |
GFLTorque
Minmatar
Lethal Corp
Red Alliance |
Posted - 2004.06.26 14:57:00 - [ 87]
Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Tsingtau
Quite impressive how on the first page or so there are several responses by TomB but as soon as people start asking tougher question about projectiles and showing the outcome they have had from testing we get no response from him. We want a response on some of the issues that are being presented here about projectiles and the results we are getting in testing them.
I was asleep...
In fairness to the DEV team, and TomB, I dont think its fair to expect them to be able to provide a perfect solution so quickly after the patche issues have arisen. I'd rather see them take a couple of days to get more info, and put their heads together on it, then just force in a hotpatch that has another issue arise. Lets not forget they did create this wonderful game we all enjoy griping about.  Even if the ore in game hasnt moved in "10 months."  Can't let that one go quite yet. Its like picking on your buddy that got sick at the bar. Its just to funny to let him forget about it that fast. |
StoreSlem
Minmatar
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2004.06.26 15:02:00 - [ 88]
dont know if this was just overlooked, but dual heavy pulses will now outrange mega pulses. |
ActiveX
Dragon Wolf Enterprises
EVESpace |
Posted - 2004.06.26 15:07:00 - [ 89]
Maybe what is needed is all long range weapons to be good only at long ranges...
Ima fan of weapons working within their classes. I dislike seeing ppl fitting 6 1400s, Tachs, or 425 Rails. It's just not how you should fit a ship like that.
Change falloff to depict the the hit zone (as in will never hit below or above it for same ship class), make optimal actually mean optimal. Tracking should be only used in the hit chance.
Basically, make this nice variety of guns useful, as it is it is eaither 800mm or 1400mm... I want to want to use different guns...
Make Dual 425s able to hit frigs fine, just make the tracking suck enough to not kill them in 5 seconds. But not being able to hit them at all is ridiculous.
To me if Gallente arent using Blasters with their Rails, Amarr arent using Mega Pulse with their Tachs, and Minmatar arent using 425mm with their Artillaries...something is wrong.
These are expensive ships and weapons, so make them worth it. |
CCP TomB
|
Posted - 2004.06.26 15:21:00 - [ 90]
Projectiles
On tracking: The artilleries have been given a significant boost in tracking speed compared to other long range turrets and has been running on Entropy after I stated that we were testing and tuning new accuracy values there. It does not match the tracking speed of the Beam Lasers or Railguns but is much more closer than was before, even than before the accuracy patch went live on TQ. Please test this as it is on Entropy before complaining about their tracking.
On damage: Projectiles lack in damage compared to lasers and railguns even on a Tempest, but do have more useful range to counter that, use no capacitor and have varying damage types. How ever I am not saying that Projectiles are equal in balance with the other turret classes as it's very hard to calculate the damage per cap per sec for projectiles and compare the capacitor that can be used for defences. I agree with projectile users that they have harder time breaking through tanks, even on a Tempest, tanks usually harden up to 3 damage types and it's much harder for a projectile user to benefit from the varying damage types as the damage also decreases when picking less damage ammos.
Another bonus that projectiles lack (they lack the capacitor bonus for smaller turrets within size class which was changed to same fall off to boost a little) is the capacitor bonus on ammo types which was made into a volume bonus to allow more ammo in projectile turrets. One possible sollution I'm willing to check out is increasing the damage on less damaging projectile ammo to make the variant damage mean more.
The low damage that Projectile users are complaining about will get looked into, but please test the tracking that Artilleries currently have on Entropy, see also the current tracking values at bottom of this post.
On the 2 Tempests vs. 1 Armageddon tank - 1 Raven vs. Armageddon tank case:
First, note before what kind of a tank you are fighting, I've had players stating that railguns are still better on Apocalypse at level 5 Amarr Battleship and when going to get that proofed, the player was hardening his armor with only 1x EM and 2X Thermal hardeners, the results from that case was obvious that a laser Apoc had no chance but no healthy soul would have carried that setup in space.
On the Raven, the Armageddon could have reduced the amount of Torpedo damage by by incredible amount by using 1x medium smart bomb. Don't forget how ever that missiles have gone back to the design drawing table, open idea thread on these is below the thread you just clicked on.
Large Close Range Combat Turret Tracking:
Electron Blaster Cannon: 0.05 (0.06 at LVL 4 Megathron)
Ion Blaster Cannon: 0.046 (0.0552 at LVL 4 Megathron)
Neutron Blaster Cannon: 0.0433 (0.052 at LVL 4 Megathron)
Dual 425mm AutoCannon: 0.045
Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery: 0.04
800mm Repeating Artillery: 0.036
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser: 0.03
Mega Pulse Laser: 0.027
Large Long Range Combat Turret Tracking:
Dual 250mm Railgun: 0.02 (0.024 at LVL 4 Megathron)
350mm Railgun: 0.0133 (0.016 at LVL 4 Megathron)
425mm Railgun: 0.011 (0.0132 at LVL 4 Megathron)
1200mm Artillery Cannon: 0.0125
1400mm Howitzer Artillery: 0.0100625
Dual Heavy Beam Laser: 0.02
Mega Beam Laser: 0.0175
Tachyon Beam Laser: 0.015909091
ps: Good Morning |
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