| Author |
Topic |
Joey Meow
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES |
Posted - 2008.10.28 00:27:00 - [ 5041]
 Originally by: IR Scoutar
meh posting slowed
it will probably get swept under the rug....
Soon enough, CCP obviously bets on the "7 month average" lifespan of an EVE player. They ignore the people who spent years with them and stuck it out through thick and thin. Good luck with that "7 month" old player CCP, soon enough, soon enough. |
Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving |
Posted - 2008.10.28 00:28:00 - [ 5042]
Flagship number 2 |
Thago Avori |
Posted - 2008.10.28 00:52:00 - [ 5043]
I have been following this thread with interest, reading all 168+ pages as they unfurl.
I was hoping the people saying 'CCP doesn't listen to their customers' were wrong. I have little hope the decision will change so I've canceled my two accounts.
toodles all |
Dirty Midden |
Posted - 2008.10.28 01:00:00 - [ 5044]
Originally by: Thago Avori
I have been following this thread with interest, reading all 168+ pages as they unfurl.
I was hoping the people saying 'CCP doesn't listen to their customers' were wrong. I have little hope the decision will change so I've canceled my two accounts.
toodles all
There is precisely 0 chance they will reverse their decision. Oh well. |
Bee oflight |
Posted - 2008.10.28 01:09:00 - [ 5045]
I look at the last 3000 page (that what I think)
lets put this clear
1) the banks are calling in all the money they an
2) If u are not in Real 0.0 you pay for your accounts.
because you can kill nice rats, miner the best ore and they get office mobs
this will easy pay 500,000,000.00 isk for 60 day time card.
(so the older player can play for free and they do not care about ghost Training)
3) Under the new rules, no new play will be albe to get a mothership because, I not
parking a 50,000,000,000.00 isk ship in a POS so a corp mate or 1 of the big
Alliances to come and get, (1 way for a play would be to make a 2nd account)
So who will pay for 1 account to fly 1 ship,
or the 2nd choose is pay for 2 account so 1 account will be off line.
4) so ghost Training again, The old player who got all Cap skill to 5. I bet 50% of
they got them with ghost training
So if u a new play, you will not get all the skill to 5 with out paying.
you can buy a 2nd char and place it on the 2nd or 3th slot
It will cost u 1 of 2 way
1) 20 to 40 billion ISK, (yes I as a new play got that in my bank in Eve, I buy 1
today. this is the link for the Forum
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=902893 or
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=908614
2) The 2nd way is buy time code, so 1 billion ISK is $34.99 x 3($104.97)or
£22.42 x 3 (£67.25) we the player are got maked of money
5) Moon is 0.0 and real 0.0 all the top moon are with bob and the top 3 Alliances
because thay got Titan's and if a small corp try to take it down thay down titan and
mothership on the small corp. how can a small corp stop bob.
I say look at 98Q-80 in syndicate. it a large control tower wiyh 1 moon miner and
the gun the tower can take with a alt cyno char so they can down a titan. I seen
just 1 titan and he got kill with a doomday he not in a big corp. how can a play
with 17 mil skill pt kill a titan
I thing that all. 1 of my friends are in 1 of the big corp's and the corp is all taking a vote "do they all change games" and I want to play a game that let my get to be 1 of the big char or can make isk
|
Velda Chulai |
Posted - 2008.10.28 01:13:00 - [ 5046]
Good morning commander! I'm checking in to confirm a successful loss.
Commander, it all happened on the field approximately six days ago, when I met with a recruit who, while in trial, took a brief two day break - they just got Spore and decided to burn out on that for a while. They returned and continued playing, but soon their trial lapsed. They looked forward to a level 5 skill to train up.
After explaining the change (good call on poasting more than 5 news updates - the bottom one dropped off the Eve in-game news!) and suggesting that I'd be leaving, they decided they'd leave Eve online as well.
Signing off commander! Wish me luck in making the operation a success! |
Epimedium |
Posted - 2008.10.28 01:42:00 - [ 5047]
Disabling Ghost Training - the blog edition should be made a sticky
To urm... be helpful n' stuff.
Would save a few petitions from going CCPs way for sure.
One nice big helping hand from CCP to show returning players where it is.
'Petitions?' you ask?
You see, I read about a petition (in here) how lost skill points were refunded to an un-subbed account. Yep, he didn't pay and yes, he was entitled to get his lost SP - this was a bug after all - so he did (get his lost SP).
So help spread the word & help CCP, eve players
...as all these petitions will be a waste of time. Its only fair we help lighten the work load of misguided petitions. They may be in a mix of moods and in need a helping hand, to help calm them down, or not.
How do you do?
An example of diverting the spam of a repeat petition offender, albeit an abrupt one
(and great job if you manage to intercept their first petition. BRAVO indeed)
EVE GT Samaritan: Welcome to this helpful sticky. Glad the link worked for you (sometimes it moves).
Concerned Eve Player: Ahh, so it's not a bug that my skill training was interrupted and didn't finish.
EVE GT Samaritan: No, its a new game feature. You needn't worry about getting your SP back. They were not lost you see.
Concerned Eve Player (no longer!): KUDOS to CCP for the change. Thankyou for saving me all that worry and panic I went through. I came back expecting to pilot a capital ship, and I was well steamed, to put it mildly. Send my thanks to CCP for having this sticky. It was so easy to find and informative to read of my fellow eve friends' opinions.
#### PARANOIA NEWSFLASH ####
Call me paranoid if you will, but I think this thread is now being indirectly bombarded by Stickys at the EVE Information Portal. I have no idea how else the threads stay afloat other than being replied to or read, but how do these numbers really add up? I just don't have enough intellect on the matter to warrant my paranoia. |
Cracoc
The Scope |
Posted - 2008.10.28 01:47:00 - [ 5048]
In the last 3yrs after all the daily downtimes and unexpected over runs of patch days i want a refund of those times i could not play the game when i wanted to, which equates to 45days. tanx  |
IR Scoutar
Caldari
State War Academy |
Posted - 2008.10.28 05:08:00 - [ 5049]
Originally by: Bee oflight
ummm ?
lol wut ? seriously i dont get it are you pro change or against change ? |
Andrea By'Cynoiea |
Posted - 2008.10.28 06:24:00 - [ 5050]
All no ghost training will do is give less incentive for inactive (burnt out or maybe in Iraq or on vacation etc etc...) players to ever return to the game. return customers is necessary in most any business. training is the most boring and ******ed thing about eve. So CCP decides that loosing 20 days of revenue (ghost training) is to important so would risk all the revenue a player will give to the game when they quit for good. No reason GTC's should be worth more as a result of no more ghost training or limiting to 60 days, as it only affects those who pay with cash (and want to save some money and make the game more affordable). All time codes are paid with cash even if you bought with isk, the guy you bought it from, paid with CASH, so CCP gets their money out of it, no one is playing for free.
Average player time 7 months, now will be 4?? Make the game more interesting, how many times can you do the same thing, And anyone that has ever gone to school, knows you can learn more than one thing at a time.
The funny thing is all the server load (from training?? proper programing would not require any server load (skill training & Level when game exit (save), X minutes from last login, skill level should be)that they can't handle and they want more active players (psst, active players also train & play in game), so the servers are working much much harder, you would alleviate server load if more people ghost trained
if they don't fix their model soon, Sad to think, CCP will be no more, and the bell tolls.
|
Razzlee |
Posted - 2008.10.28 09:09:00 - [ 5051]
Originally by: IR Scoutar
meh posting slowed
it will probably get swept under the rug....
CCP will be bringing this up themselves in a few months time when they realize their active subscriptions have plummeted by the thousands and that those players aren't coming back like they thought they would. More than likely though, by then, it will be too late. |
Tivookz
Caldari
Long Dong Corp
Intergalactic Exports Group |
Posted - 2008.10.28 09:17:00 - [ 5052]
Edited by: Tivookz on 28/10/2008 09:26:46
To be honest I am not surprised T0rfifrans made this decision because lets face it, he is a former 3D artist that somehow became the Senior lead producer.
Since when was it a good idea to let the ships cook, chef or whatever u wanna call it steer the ship?
Decisions like this have to be considered for a long time and to be honest, considering the extremely short notice we were given prior to the removal of ghost training this was nothing but a rushed decision made by a person who simply exploited his position.
Of course the rest of CCP are officially supporting this decision but that's obvious, how would this look if we had representatives saying they don't support their senior producer?
But in reality I predict the situation to be a little bit more infected than what we see on the surface.
Because lets face it, ghost training might be something you give your customers for free but it is also a very strong factor when a player decides what to do with his free time after taking a break and with the 5000+ replies we have in this thread I can only imagine that we have people thinking the same way at CCP HQ.
Of course, those people don't have Senior producer printed on their nametag.
Because there are two scenarios for a player, guess which one brings in the most revenue over a year:
1. Return to eve and see that your long skill training finished and get motivated to continue or
2. Realise you don't have anything waiting for you except what you had when you left and get tempted to try something else.
Tiv |
IR Scoutar
Caldari
State War Academy |
Posted - 2008.10.28 12:33:00 - [ 5053]
Originally by: Razzlee
Originally by: IR Scoutar
meh posting slowed
it will probably get swept under the rug....
CCP will be bringing this up themselves in a few months time when they realize their active subscriptions have plummeted by the thousands and that those players aren't coming back like they thought they would.
More than likely though, by then, it will be too late.
well so far with each half arsed atempt to explain they have gotten more to the point where zulupark even sayd it was a bussiness decision whats left now is an official statement preferably as a news item or devblog that simply states "We are sorry for lieing to you, we thought it would be easyer for you to swallow this way"untill i get that i shall be whining with my lovely alt here untill this aco**** runs out of gametime aswell (main already ran out) or im banned from the forums. Why do i stay on and whine ? Because i love this game and there is so much more potential in it |
Manipulator General
o.0
|
Posted - 2008.10.28 13:22:00 - [ 5054]
I wonder how long it'll be before they decide this discussion is over, lock the thread, and start deleting any new threads on the subject.
Go on, CCP, you know you want to. |
Chris Stormrider
Gallente
IDEON ANDRON |
Posted - 2008.10.28 13:38:00 - [ 5055]
I'll be happy if this thread reaches 171 pages and become the biggest in these forums
but I don't think the people that left and are coming back, nor do I think allowing ghost training will make any difference, since it's beside the point.
also, someone losing his job over this would be also good |
Lorac Caladon
Caldari
The Cowboy Junkies
|
Posted - 2008.10.28 13:55:00 - [ 5056]
Originally by: Tivookz
Edited by: Tivookz on 28/10/2008 09:26:46
To be honest I am not surprised T0rfifrans made this decision because lets face it, he is a former 3D artist that somehow became the Senior lead producer.
Since when was it a good idea to let the ships cook, chef or whatever u wanna call it steer the ship?
Decisions like this have to be considered for a long time and to be honest, considering the extremely short notice we were given prior to the removal of ghost training this was nothing but a rushed decision made by a person who simply exploited his position.
Of course the rest of CCP are officially supporting this decision but that's obvious, how would this look if we had representatives saying they don't support their senior producer?
But in reality I predict the situation to be a little bit more infected than what we see on the surface.
Because lets face it, ghost training might be something you give your customers for free but it is also a very strong factor when a player decides what to do with his free time after taking a break and with the 5000+ replies we have in this thread I can only imagine that we have people thinking the same way at CCP HQ.
Of course, those people don't have Senior producer printed on their nametag.
Because there are two scenarios for a player, guess which one brings in the most revenue over a year:
1. Return to eve and see that your long skill training finished and get motivated to continue or
2. Realise you don't have anything waiting for you except what you had when you left and get tempted to try something else.
Tiv
This. THIS. THIS! Very little else makes any sense. Just for clarification though, a question for CCP: Did the same person, business unit or department make the official decision to: a. cancel the so-called “Ghost Training” b. remove 30 & 90 day GTC’s c. raise the price of the 60 day GTC? |
Mon Gars |
Posted - 2008.10.28 15:45:00 - [ 5057]
I would like to know once and for all if this change has actually been implemented.
Somewhere in this thread (I've read all but the last 2.5 pages), people were saying CCP has said that there was going to be a 3 day grace period for training time after your account deactivated.
To test this change, I dutifully reactivated my account 3 days and a few hours after it expired, only to find my skill still training. What is going on? Is this change actually going to be implemented? Can someone official PLEASE give the specifics?
|
Razzlee |
Posted - 2008.10.28 15:59:00 - [ 5058]
Originally by: Mon Gars
I would like to know once and for all if this change has actually been implemented.
Somewhere in this thread (I've read all but the last 2.5 pages), people were saying CCP has said that there was going to be a 3 day grace period for training time after your account deactivated.
To test this change, I dutifully reactivated my account 3 days and a few hours after it expired, only to find my skill still training. What is going on? Is this change actually going to be implemented? Can someone official PLEASE give the specifics?
It was implemented. It appears they actually shut the training off during downtime after the third day following the account going inactive. Being CCP, they screwed up the code and thats why we had bugged downtimes that went beyond their normal length for several days after this implemented. One of the more funny things about this was that one of the fabricated reasons given for removing ghost training was that it was a strain on the database. In all reality, ghost training posed no strain to the database at all while their efforts to stop accounts from training at the 3 day point does cause a load on the database during the daily downtimes. |
Komiliya Jenius |
Posted - 2008.10.28 16:31:00 - [ 5059]
<- goes play perfect world since they have full body avatars with ladies to oogle at.
Serisouly, Ghost nerf, releasing the Orca to win people back and now unexpected downtimes, CCP is jumping the shark. |
Cigic
Caldari
Sons of Viagra
G00DFELLAS |
Posted - 2008.10.28 16:49:00 - [ 5060]
I wrotw this while reffering to new expansion but it also applies here.
Someone ones said: "Democracy is worst type of totalitarianism if demos is stupid."
Regarding marketing, profit and sustainable development.
You have to distinct two basic type of your customers.
A) majority - new players (mainly high sec)- industrial type - without deeper understanding of this game or any other game - moving from game to game - MOST WHINING and posting in general
B) minority - long term players with deep game understanding, rarely posting or whining - they live EVE!! They don't dig graphics and medals that much. Real value for them is playabilty, functionability and openess of the game.
If you rely on conclusions made from your customer care service you'll end up in deep **** cos you are led more or less by customer A. They will continue to come and leave anyway. They are mass led by trend, without knowing who they are and what they want. They love to chat and post comments.
You should rely on customer B. You should make plans (cost of development, focus of development, cost of maintenence etc.) based on that pipe. That policy would guarantee your survival and overall success. And our happiness.
It seems that you are a bit of that stream now. Unless this its already exit strategy. Lets take what we can.
This is definitely strike vs B customer cos it takes ages to get one skill level up.
Regards |
Gleamor |
Posted - 2008.10.28 17:31:00 - [ 5061]
Way to go CCP. I must congratulate you on fixing this "bug".
How about you fix something that IS broken like the huge lagfests we have to endure during fleet battles.
/meh |
Lusulpher
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.10.28 17:56:00 - [ 5062]
Originally by: Squirrrel
Originally by: Lusulpher
I will continue playing and whining until skill queue is put in by CSM or whoever. This is not Central America, stay and fight for what is yours dammit.
You ever hear the saying that the pen is mightier than the sword? Quitting seems to be the only thing CCP might listen to, and I'm not being charged for trying to make my point either.
In effect they are being charged as they aren't getting our money.
We're just taking the power back and they themselves need to adapt or die if more people get disenchanted with them.
Originally by: Lusulpher
Anything that imbalances the real world economy also better not show up in my damn gamn either, like say a myriad of economy-breaking tax loopholes and bad(greedy,selfish) decisions to acquire money and services that aren't yours...that lead to world banks failing...I'm not going to help bail you out in RL, so clean up your act ingame.
You're the one asking people for their stuff. Maybe you just roleplay a hypocrite...
Originally by: Lusulpher
STFU and open contracts.
No. Ball is yours. What you going to do with it now hotshot?
I'm going to continue paying for my 1 account and posting/balancing the feedback channels...as usual. CCP did adapt, they closed a "loophole(advertised game feature and I'm a bit ****ed, but realize businesses can change model)". What is the other MMO that gives away free service like that? Guild Wars does, but it's still getting it's ass kicked financially by WoW. Why? No clue.  CCP had longest trial period too, set the bar, no praise there...And what's this? FREE EXPANSIONS BI-ANNUALLY!!! We don't have to just rebuy the game?! WHAT THE EVERLOVING-**** CCP? Seems to me players are pretty ungrateful to games with free content they get on gift terms only. For free stuff is NOT the market norm. Asking for your stuff IS balancing the economy. If a noob has faction stuff off the market and his account is cancelled, it won't be deleted, CCP holds those accounts for eons...Either they delete possible reactivations or you give the stuff away, so it can be used, blown up AND reseeded. I dunk your ball, sir!!! STFU, Open Contracts...Lusulpher's the name, being God's the game. |
oilio
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.10.28 18:09:00 - [ 5063]
Edited by: oilio on 28/10/2008 18:09:26 Originally by: Lusulpher
CCP did adapt, they closed a "loophole(advertised game feature and I'm a bit ****ed, but realize businesses can change model)". What is the other MMO that gives away free service like that? Guild Wars does, but it's still getting it's ass kicked financially by WoW. Why? No clue. CCP had longest trial period too, set the bar, no praise there...And what's this? FREE EXPANSIONS BI-ANNUALLY!!! We don't have to just rebuy the game?! WHAT THE EVERLOVING-**** CCP?
Seems to me players are pretty ungrateful to games with free content they get on gift terms only. For free stuff is NOT the market norm.
Asking for your stuff IS balancing the economy. If a noob has faction stuff off the market and his account is cancelled, it won't be deleted, CCP holds those accounts for eons...Either they delete possible reactivations or you give the stuff away, so it can be used, blown up AND reseeded.
You're missing the point (deliberately trolling, I suspect). 1. CUSTOMERS are upset that there is a change in the terms and conditions which affects them negatively. An advertised feature has been removed. 2. CUSTOMERS are upset that the change was made at very short notice (48 hours), and came RIGHT AFTER the "power of two" promotion that encouraged players to have multiple accounts. 3. CUSTOMERS are upset that CCP plucked reasons out of thin-air, and basically treated them like they could feed them any amount of ****, and they would buy it. 4. CUSTOMERS are upset about the previous changes to GTCs and the way that was handled. 5. NOTHING IN EVE IS FREE. The expansions aren't free. They are paid for by people's subscriptions which are higher than most MMORPGS. Only ONE character on any account can be trained at any one time - unlike most RPGs. GHOSTS TRAINING WASN'T FREE! You had to pay a subscription to get the character training that skill, and then you had to come back and pay again to use that skill. YOU DON'T GET TO USE YOUR TRAINED SKILL UNLESS YOU PAY! Bottom line - players now have to pay MORE than they did to achieve what they used to, and CCP bull****ted the playerbase about it, and massively censored all complaints, and tried to hide all discussion about it for as long as they could. Hence CUSTOMERS are upset. |
Seth Vorlar |
Posted - 2008.10.28 20:18:00 - [ 5064]
The longer i read this thread my anoyance against CCP grows and grows, hey CCP you are killing our game, not yet, not emidiately, but over the time you will face the fact that you will lose about 30% off you playerbase. TBH i only know ONE person in this game that plays only with ONE ACC, all the others are playing 2..3..4.... and ALL of them are up to chancel or move there chars to one or max two acc, i suggest you make Torfivotz a nice present if you lose your JOBS in a YEAR.
A KICK IN HIS FACE
2 off my 4 acc are unsubbed 1 more to go ...... |
Shmak's Maker |
Posted - 2008.10.28 20:27:00 - [ 5065]
**** you ccp......  |
Vama Mapri |
Posted - 2008.10.28 20:33:00 - [ 5066]
Originally by: Lusulpher
Originally by: Squirrrel
Originally by: Lusulpher
I will continue playing and whining until skill queue is put in by CSM or whoever. This is not Central America, stay and fight for what is yours dammit.
You ever hear the saying that the pen is mightier than the sword? Quitting seems to be the only thing CCP might listen to, and I'm not being charged for trying to make my point either.
In effect they are being charged as they aren't getting our money.
We're just taking the power back and they themselves need to adapt or die if more people get disenchanted with them.
Originally by: Lusulpher
Anything that imbalances the real world economy also better not show up in my damn gamn either, like say a myriad of economy-breaking tax loopholes and bad(greedy,selfish) decisions to acquire money and services that aren't yours...that lead to world banks failing...I'm not going to help bail you out in RL, so clean up your act ingame.
You're the one asking people for their stuff. Maybe you just roleplay a hypocrite...
Originally by: Lusulpher
STFU and open contracts.
No. Ball is yours. What you going to do with it now hotshot?
I'm going to continue paying for my 1 account and posting/balancing the feedback channels...as usual.
CCP did adapt, they closed a "loophole(advertised game feature and I'm a bit ****ed, but realize businesses can change model)". What is the other MMO that gives away free service like that? Guild Wars does, but it's still getting it's ass kicked financially by WoW. Why? No clue. CCP had longest trial period too, set the bar, no praise there...And what's this? FREE EXPANSIONS BI-ANNUALLY!!! We don't have to just rebuy the game?! WHAT THE EVERLOVING-**** CCP?
Seems to me players are pretty ungrateful to games with free content they get on gift terms only. For free stuff is NOT the market norm.
Asking for your stuff IS balancing the economy. If a noob has faction stuff off the market and his account is cancelled, it won't be deleted, CCP holds those accounts for eons...Either they delete possible reactivations or you give the stuff away, so it can be used, blown up AND reseeded.
I dunk your ball, sir!!!
STFU, Open Contracts...Lusulpher's the name, being God's the game.
Show me ANY MMO that after playing for 4+ years you still haven't reached level cap/skill max points in and then try telling me why Ghost training ISN'T something that's needed for this game. You also seem to forget that CCP get's FREE payment for every minute you aren't logged in the game for which you've paid for. If this game was a pay as you play then fine I wouldn't mind my training only training while i'm playing BECAUSE i'd only be PAYING while i'm playing and NOT paying while I'm offline. So please don't spout how we moan about not getting free stuff when CCP get's FREE PAYMENT everytime someone isn't logged into the game. A 60 day gamecard should be exactly that 60 day's of ONLINE time, not 60 day's whether your on or not. CCP is just a bunch of hypocrites. |
Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving |
Posted - 2008.10.28 20:58:00 - [ 5067]
CCP has edited this thread and taken out at LEAST 2 posts but they STILL havent posted A SINGLE STATEMENT about this subject in this thread.
THEY DONT CARE. |
Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries |
Posted - 2008.10.28 21:31:00 - [ 5068]
Edited by: Squirrrel on 28/10/2008 21:35:17 Originally by: Lusulpher
babble...
What patches/expansions do you really think would merit a full/half priced product for Eve? Why do you use the term "noob" in your reply in relation to players having items off-market? Good luck with the feedback/balancing. CCP used to listen to the feedback, these days, not so much. Eve isn't the "norm" - it prides itself on that. That works for/against the game. It's a two-way street. I mentioned adapt or die AFTER this change. The phrase still stands. Given the reaction to their initial attempt to "adapt", if they don't adapt again (Based on this thread and reaction to the change) they might well need to adapt again or die. Stuff left in game is essentially money lost/destroyed/stuffed under a mattress - whatever in the real world. Not every penny is accounted for IRL. What do you mean gift terms only? A gift is generally something you want, and even if it isn't; as an adult you're rarely forced to use or pay monthly for it. Originally by: Lusulpher
I dunk your ball, sir!!!
Games over Brimstone, everyone's gone home. Enjoy paying to bugtest your "free" gifts. Originally by: Lusulpher
STFU, Open Contracts...Lusulpher's the name, being God's the game.
....I've done neither yet again - so now what? |
Squirrrel
Gallente
Squirrrel Industries |
Posted - 2008.10.28 21:33:00 - [ 5069]
Originally by: Richard Aiel
CCP has edited this thread and taken out at LEAST 2 posts but they STILL havent posted A SINGLE STATEMENT about this subject in this thread.
THEY DONT CARE.
I apologise for being a bit lazy, but there's a lot of posts, can you link them in eve-search or mention the posters name so I can check that out please? |
Boomer Aires |
Posted - 2008.10.28 21:42:00 - [ 5070]
Originally by: Richard Aiel
CCP has edited this thread and taken out at LEAST 2 posts but they STILL havent posted A SINGLE STATEMENT about this subject in this thread.
THEY DONT CARE.
Ohh, you mean the "one finger salute" ?  |
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