| Author |
Topic |
Traumathon |
Posted - 2008.10.08 10:09:00 - [ 1]
Hi!! I'm still pretty new at the game but now have a nice stockpile of cash to spend. So..... I am looking for input on some ideas. I was considering seting up a ship to target and take out jammers. Cloak/torps was my first thought but I'm not sure if this would be a vaiable route to take. My main concern is that once i'm found out to be a jam killer I'll become a primary target so need to plan accordingly. I'm fine with something squishy as long as it can get away fast but want as much bang as I can get. Any suggestions on what route I should take on this? Keep in mind that I'm new to the game so I may not be familiar with some abbreviations. If you could please type items so I can easily find them in the market search it would be much appreciated. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 10:16:00 - [ 2]
Best overall: ECCM Scorpion with cruise launchers and Caldari racial jammers.
Best for making it warp out: ECCM Rook with Caldari racial jammers.
Best for killing it: multiple fleet sniper battleships (it will jam you if you only have one).
Best for killing it without slowing down your gang with battleships: ECCM Cerberus.
Best for taking out ECM while still being amazingly useful when no ECM shows up: Falcon. |
asdfasfasaxfsdgfhds |
Posted - 2008.10.08 11:28:00 - [ 3]
Edited by: asdfasfasaxfsdgfhds on 08/10/2008 11:29:04
I have flown in 0.0 gangs for 3 years now and for some reason it's happened to fall upon me to target and kill ewar ships that were in the gangs we were going up against.
I always fly a raven in gangs and my fits have always beeen critisized by others but my kill death ratio speaks for itself and usually hush's the critics.
So with that said,
I fit 6 T2 Cruise launchers and use faction or t2 missles.
3 T2 sensor boosters to lock them fast.
Now here's the tactical tip, do not warp with your gang, wait about 2-3 seconds and show up last or near last upon arrival of the engagement. By the time you've arrived the hostile ewar ships have usually targeted and started jamming the ships in your gang precieved as the highest threat.
That is the critical moment for you. Find them in the overview by ship type, preclick your high slots so all ur missles fly at once and let them loose. Now my cruise missles fly very close to 12k/second with a rate of fire just under 8 seconds, so this is gonna do two things.
Smart ewar pilot is going to recieve the first volley and be omgwtf his missles fly fast and warp out thereby taking his ewarness off the field.
Less then smart ewar pilot is gonna be liquified once he recieves the second volley and go pop!
So you see, you don't need any "special" modules on your ship to be effective against ewar ships. You need tactics and that's it.
PS: I never fit eccm unless it's in a differant gang set up, but that's another topic. |
Aveng3X
Caldari
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2008.10.08 12:11:00 - [ 4]
A dampening Caracal is pretty cool, 2 damps, 2 sensor boosters, afterburner, sorted. You can screw up their lock range and hurt them with long range missile bombardment :) |
Gartel Reiman
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction |
Posted - 2008.10.08 12:11:00 - [ 5]
Stealth bombers can actually be a real pain to jamming ships - they're unlikely to actually kill anything more than a Griffin when solo, but the range and alpha of cruise missiles means that they should at least be able to get decent hits on. As you grow your bomber wing, the alpha gets better (more chance to instapop larger targets such as Falcons) and it's a lot more difficult, and costly even if successful, for the ECM ship to keep all the bombers jammed and thus stay on the battlefield. Of course, you do still have the general issue of justifying the stealth bombers' place in the fleet above other ships (e.g. cruise Raven which in terms of damage is equivalent to two bombers), but they can be nice for newer players without tip-top support skills who would otherwise be very vulnerable in the short-range area, and as a reliable form of supplementary long-range DPS. Asides from this there are lots of discussions on the usefulness of stealth bombers...  |
The Tzar
FinFleet
Raiden. |
Posted - 2008.10.08 12:31:00 - [ 6]
 Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Best overall: ECCM Scorpion with cruise launchers and Caldari racial jammers.
Best for making it warp out: ECCM Rook with Caldari racial jammers.
Best for killing it: multiple fleet sniper battleships (it will jam you if you only have one).
Best for killing it without slowing down your gang with battleships: ECCM Cerberus.
Best for taking out ECM while still being amazingly useful when no ECM shows up: Falcon.
No..., this can't be true!  So many counters to an un-counterable ship? Read this all you pathetic ECM crybabies and sort out your fleets accordingly. Thankyou Merin for educating the great unworthy, unwashed and ignorant EvE public.  |
Hans Ryko |
Posted - 2008.10.08 12:45:00 - [ 7]
+1, back to anti-jammer school falcon nerfers! |
LadyLubU2
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.08 13:12:00 - [ 8]
|
darkmancer |
Posted - 2008.10.08 13:20:00 - [ 9]
I suspect a max skilled Amarr stealth bomber may be able to insta pop a falcon, you may need rigs to do it though |
Stork DK
Minmatar
Risky eXplosion
Death or Glory |
Posted - 2008.10.08 13:24:00 - [ 10]
nanohuginn with 1-2 eccm =] |
Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation |
Posted - 2008.10.08 14:46:00 - [ 11]
Originally by: darkmancer
I suspect a max skilled Amarr stealth bomber may be able to insta pop a falcon, you may need rigs to do it though
No, I think stealth bomber alpha maxes out at about 3000 - about 2750 with max skills and 3 damage mods. An unfitted, max skilled falcon has 5500 EHP to EM damage. Two might be able to instapop it; three probably will if it's untanked, four will do it. One will get it to warp out though, and this is probably the best use for stealth bombers. High alpha, high locking range, high sensor strength, high scan resolution, no targeting delay, good range, and relatively low skill requirements compared to Merin's list. A good thing to stick low-skilled players into, that can dish out some reasonable damage, and is unlikely to be called primary so that the player can actually stick around and have some fun - while providing a hard-to-fill and very valuable role in the gang. Merin - good use for stealth bombers, c/d? |
baltec1 |
Posted - 2008.10.08 15:08:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: darkmancer
I suspect a max skilled Amarr stealth bomber may be able to insta pop a falcon, you may need rigs to do it though
nah your looking at 3 or 4 vollies. 2 if you have max skills and get lucky. |
LadyLubU2
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.08 15:17:00 - [ 13]
A jammer's worst enemy? That ME! ME YES ME!  |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention |
Posted - 2008.10.08 15:34:00 - [ 14]
Lag.
On a more serious note, I'd go with the cruise raven. If you go with armor buffer and ECCM + sensor boosting in the mids, you can be remote repped and be useful both against EW and other long range ships aswell as anything up close.
Sure cruises are not the wtfpwnage in dps that torps are but when you can just spam away at any range and do good damage to pretty much all sized ships, who cares. Obviously any gang shouldn't have too many of such ships but one or two and your resistance to ECM is considerably higher. |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance |
Posted - 2008.10.08 15:46:00 - [ 15]
Yup, armor tank raven. Our specialty |
Marcus Druallis
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2008.10.08 16:14:00 - [ 16]
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 16:17:00 - [ 17]
ECM is not an ideal counter to ECM ships because ECM cannot remove ECM ships from the field. |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 16:26:00 - [ 18]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/10/2008 16:27:26 Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Best overall: ECCM Scorpion with cruise launchers and Caldari racial jammers.
Best for making it warp out: ECCM Rook with Caldari racial jammers.
Best for killing it: multiple fleet sniper battleships (it will jam you if you only have one).
Best for killing it without slowing down your gang with battleships: ECCM Cerberus.
Best for taking out ECM while still being amazingly useful when no ECM shows up: Falcon.
This. Originally by: The Tzar
So many counters to an un-counterable ship?
Read this all you pathetic ECM crybabies and sort out your fleets accordingly.
You can't be that stupid, can you?  1/10 for the attempt. Trolling shouldn't be that obvious tbh. Originally by: Gypsio III
ECM is not an ideal counter to ECM ships because ECM cannot remove ECM ships from the field.
Valid commentary, the longer fights last the worse ECM is a counter to ECM. Meaning, not very valid commentary for small gangs. |
BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 16:30:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Gypsio III
ECM is not an ideal counter to ECM ships because ECM cannot remove ECM ships from the field.
lol exactly, it simply shifts the favour, which is all that really matters Though i dont like hte "fight fire with fire" attitude towards counters, the other counters merin said are probably more the "poper" counters  |
Denuo Secus |
Posted - 2008.10.08 17:04:00 - [ 20]
I think just a small wing of interceptors (the damage ones: Crusader, Taranis, ...) could be pain for a Falcon. It's a interceptor! Why not intercept something with it  My point is: these interceptors don't even have to reach the Falcon. Just it's approach could be disturbing enough ^^ And those interceptors are no wasted fleet role imo. They are useful in many ways - especially after a potential speed change. |
The Tzar
FinFleet
Raiden. |
Posted - 2008.10.08 17:14:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
You can't be that stupid, can you?
1/10 for the attempt. Trolling shouldn't be that obvious tbh.
ROFL it appears I am 'that stupid' as this wasn't meant as a troll. True a few of the suggestions have been ECM as a counter to ECM but there are many (if undesirable) fight fire with fire scenarios in EvE. Just two ECCM cerbs, two will screw up as many falcons as your opponents can provide. Lock falcon, fire two missiles, rinse repeat. Cerbs are generally not high on the jam list..., not until more people fly like Gypsio and lets hope that day never happens |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 17:16:00 - [ 22]
Interceptors are trivial to jam. But they can still act as a warp-in point for other, less jammable ships.
As for ECM as a counter to ECM, yeah, in a small, short fight it works well enough, in that whoever gets the first jam in tends to dominate the fight. Although you really want your ECM to be jamming the enemy BS, rather than attempting to jam enemy recons.
But in longer fights, the ability to remove the ECM boat from the field, whether by popping it or forcing it to warp off-grid, not only removes the enemy ECM threat, but also frees up your jammers. |
Derek Sigres |
Posted - 2008.10.08 17:51:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Interceptors are trivial to jam. But they can still act as a warp-in point for other, less jammable ships.
As for ECM as a counter to ECM, yeah, in a small, short fight it works well enough, in that whoever gets the first jam in tends to dominate the fight. Although you really want your ECM to be jamming the enemy BS, rather than attempting to jam enemy recons.
But in longer fights, the ability to remove the ECM boat from the field, whether by popping it or forcing it to warp off-grid, not only removes the enemy ECM threat, but also frees up your jammers.
I agree with this. The common whine of "ECM is overpowered because ECM is the only good counter" is only true in smaller fights with a handful of ships on each side. In a falcon v. Falcon jam fest what really happens is one falcon gets the jam and uses at least 2 (most falcon pilots have 2 caldari jammers handy) jammers in the process. If you brought your own falcon as a "counter" all you have essentially accomplished is. . . you're consuming two jammers. Eventually the opposing falcon misses a jam and the now unjammed (and probably terrified given the falcon relies mostly on jamming magic to surive) falcon throws an absurd quantity of jammers on the other falcon - and it goes back and fourth until someone wins the battle. In a short battle, he who jams first wins. In a long battle all you've done is achieved parity by using one ship to negate the usefulness of another ship (and vice versa). Sure, shooting at a falcon might not kill it but you WILL force it from the field - and all those times the falcon isn't hanging around means you can expend those guns helping aid the real battle. |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers |
Posted - 2008.10.08 17:55:00 - [ 24]
Keep interceptors around the fight, looking out for specifically falcons and stealth bombers. Even if the falcons do not warp away but keep you permanently jammed, you're being an asset to your fleet by disabling some jammers. |
adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak |
Posted - 2008.10.08 18:03:00 - [ 25]
4-5x ECCM recon ship |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention |
Posted - 2008.10.08 18:12:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Keep interceptors around the fight, looking out for specifically falcons and stealth bombers. Even if the falcons do not warp away but keep you permanently jammed, you're being an asset to your fleet by disabling some jammers.
But one ship for one mid slot is not really a good tradeoff. If you have a significant numbers advantage, the ECM is a non issue and instead getting the jammer on your list of kills is more important. But if you've got close to equal numbers, how your ships contribute to the fight becomes rather significant. And fielding interceptors for anything but reconnaissance and fast tackling isn't very viable. A single damage dealer ship occupies 1 ECM at worst, 2 on average and kills or forces the jammer to warp out at best. So worst case scenario it's as useful as that interceptor. |
Greckor Monmouth
CAD Inc.
Executive Outcomes |
Posted - 2008.10.08 18:15:00 - [ 27]
anti-falcon falcons actually work very well. We have used them, and to great effect, but then again, we dedicate a ship solely to takking out the falcon blobs.
anti-falcon falcon-
ecc, sensor booster, caldari jammers
:) |
MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 18:29:00 - [ 28]
Nanocurse TBH. Recon sensor strengths, fast, can kill its cap very very quickly (stops future jamming), drones will always force the Falcon to leave even if you do get jammed (+FOFs too depending on your highs). |
Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative. |
Posted - 2008.10.08 18:43:00 - [ 29]
Originally by: MalVortex
Nanocurse TBH. Recon sensor strengths, fast, can kill its cap very very quickly (stops future jamming), drones will always force the Falcon to leave even if you do get jammed (+FOFs too depending on your highs).
This. Fast curse is the most dangerous ship for a falcon pilot. others may be more effective at making you leave, but not more effective at killing. |
LadyLubU2
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.10.08 19:13:00 - [ 30]
Edited by: LadyLubU2 on 08/10/2008 19:28:29Edited by: LadyLubU2 on 08/10/2008 19:27:33Edited by: LadyLubU2 on 08/10/2008 19:17:31 Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: MalVortex
Nanocurse TBH. Recon sensor strengths, fast, can kill its cap very very quickly (stops future jamming), drones will always force the Falcon to leave even if you do get jammed (+FOFs too depending on your highs).
This. Fast curse is the most dangerous ship for a falcon pilot. others may be more effective at making you leave, but not more effective at killing.
Agreed. And the funny fact is that both types of Ewar on the curse (trackingdisruptor&neuts) are completly out of the picture in that scenario, since neither neut or trackingdisruptor actually 'effect' the falcon at all (ok, neut maybe a bit, but even then, the falcon is more likely to jam you before your in his range to bump/neut him). For a fact, lag and a falcon pilot that doesnt have a clue have more effect than the ewar of the curse.  And now, consider the fact that, flying a curse is something WAY HARDER than a falcon. Every noob in this game can get in a falcon easy, put a cloaker on, jammers in mids, plate plus signal enhancer, make some 220km bookmarks, and be nearly impossible to kill. In the end, the ONLY thing that kills falcon pilots is simply 'lag' and 'stupidity', as where a curse can easily be attacked from the distance it has to fight from. And on top of that, it cannot shut down 3-5 targets like a falcon can. Now, put all the other recons in the same place (especially pilgrim and gallente recons), and compare it to the falcon. Now, a argument from the falcon pilots is that falcons cannot tank much and dont do much dps, but in trade they get there uber ewar. You know, thats completely bull****. Now lets take a arazu. 5 of the 6 mids are used for damps+mwd+disruptor, leaving 1 slot for a capmodule (because rails+damps+mwd eat energy like there is no tomorrow). After the mandatory guns and cloak/probe launcher, that leaves you 4 lowslots to tank. Because the pg sucks so badly, there isnt much room for a plate+rep, so that leaves you with nano'ing it up. Now, my arazu, wich has exactly the same ****ty ehp as a falcon without a 1600mm RTP, and cannot even shut down 1 battleships within its 'optimal range' (30-40km), should be balanced to the powers a falcon normally unleashes (not to mention the fact it can easily fit a 1600mm RTP)? Its easy to see that the ecm > any ewar, simply, because if you cannot lock someone, you cannot damp/neut/web/scram,paint/trackingdisrupt someone else, rendering you completely useless. So if you combine all the different things, a ecm ship that can operate at 220km+, jam multiple targets, can have reasonal buffer with a big plate, can reliable jam any tacklers AND the ability to warp cloaked is just, way....too....much. Either eccm is borked, or falcon is borked. |
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