| Author |
Topic |
Almori |
Posted - 2008.10.04 15:00:00 - [ 121]
 Originally by: Zeba
Post constructively. ~Saint
This. |
Almori |
Posted - 2008.10.04 15:01:00 - [ 122]
Originally by: Vabjekf
Originally by: Trist Ian
Edited by: Trist Ian on 03/10/2008 02:37:42
It would also make having a capital very hard. Since u would have to rely on everybody else to help u move around. Personally it would be completely dumb. And CCP would also loose alot of players and money.
To the op. Slap yourself!
Capitals were a bad idea.
They should remove them from the game. And if they are kept in. you SHOULD require constant 24/7 support to fly them. They are after all supposed to be a corp investment, not a personal one. Right?
Like you care about others right? Selfish bastard.
As predicted the only people who argue my blatantly obvious truths are those who don't want to lose their personal pocket carrier fleet.
|
Kel Nissa |
Posted - 2008.10.04 18:41:00 - [ 123]
/me votes yes for 1 char per person |
Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2008.10.04 21:19:00 - [ 124]
Okay vabjekf, (your response is back on page 3 to me)
(first point I don't feel I can say anything more about really)
Second point again - Being undocked in EVE is not quite the same as standing out in an open field in a PvP area in another game. simply being outside can allow you to get intel, (Yes, like a /whois in other games is really informative in other games) its very easy and quick to start earning money,(although it is syndicate space) especially when there's like my "home" system with 15 belts. I can lead my enemies on a wild goose chase, and worst comes to worst, I just jumpclone away like I normally do, except it puts me into an expensive implant clone and home is 30 jumps away through gate camp central)PF-346) or even longer. Camping people isn't a broken mechanic. with how easy it is to logoff, cloak, hide, dock, or jump into a POS, there's not way otherwise to maintain presence and disrupt it. Going away is the direct discouragement TO stop camping, and its perfectly fine for both to exist (even if it requires alts/second accounts to do so.
third point - being broken and somewhat unfair are two very different things. the current game mechanics, logging off in hostile systems without stations etc means that clever attackers have a HUGE advantage given that mining barges, ratters and mission runner setups are so easy to pick apart no matter what you do. But, fixing that would actually break things. (trust me, as much as people scream for it, omnifits in games are BAD.
and now, a Fourth - I have two characters who provide radically different roles. One has a high charisma and is a decent pilot with one type of specialization, cruisers and battlecruisers and their tech 2 versions. Yet these ships are damn useless when you need to have about a dozen remote rep battleships just to provide stability in the rare capital ship we see. at that point my recons are nice, but they can die quite quickly in the crossfire, and it costs a lot more. My other character, has absolutely maxxed battleship skills, remote reps, and specs for cruise, torps, heavy rails and both caldari and gallente battleship V (although I will never use a capital ship.)
Now, no offense, but there are quite a few situations in which you need to bring the right ship or go home. Two accounts can actually allow you to DO this, and not be caught with a half assed setup. Even moreso, do you know what? I have a recon specifically for Cynos. My alliance has very few capital ships, and you will not see me undock for it. not a chance if there's hostiles within 3 jumps.
gatecamping? no. Mining ops? no. logistics? I haul my own things, even if it means dragging BPCs and low weight high end minerals and then ratting for crappy tech 1 drops for refines to build off my BPCs for my tech 1 needs, anything else I risk. Actual PvP? Sure. Have a plan and don't ask me to undock without a chance of winning or keeping my ship intact.
Vab, people are already reluctant to do things for their friends in this game, its what kills morale even in higher end corps except for those that are used to it. I'm not, never will be. I don't like relying on others for jack or **** really. I have two characters so I can PvP in pretty much at this point EVERY situation effectively, and do my own hauling, Mining, and manufacturing without a huge penalty. (my main flies recons, command ships, hulks, iteron Vs and even manfactures at near perfection which is nice but does nothing when it comes time to knock down a POS or remote rep chain in the odd chance we do and it has come up a lot more often.
Vabjekf, what I am trying to talk about is the inevitable state of EVE forever. what you're trying to talk about is some grand idea of a space MMO in some alternate universe. Its cute, if you like having 10k customers and getting the plug pulled on it eventually.(as far as I can see.)
Alts, and second accounts are a part of EVE, and EVE could not work in any shape or form without them. |
Demitria Fernir
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute |
Posted - 2008.10.04 21:29:00 - [ 125]
Just make EVE a free MMORPG like those bunch of all-the-same kid games from korea and make people pay for extra stuff, so i can move up to kicks online and get finally to level 18. |
Vabjekf |
Posted - 2008.10.04 22:30:00 - [ 126]
Originally by: Kage Psychodin
Okay vabjekf,
So you are saying you want to be able to do everything and not have to worry about having to make decisions ^__^ Quote:
Vab, people are already reluctant to do things for their friends in this game, its what kills morale even in higher end corps except for those that are used to it. I'm not, never will be. I don't like relying on others for jack or **** really. I have two characters so I can PvP in pretty much at this point EVERY situation effectively, and do my own hauling, Mining, and manufacturing without a huge penalty.
If people HAD to depend on others this would change. Thats the problem with the arguments people are making against me. They are envisioning it to be JUST LIKE HOW IT IS NOW, with the ONE THING IM SAYING being different. With out realizing that by changing what im saying it will automatically change the entire environment of the whole game, so that comparing what im saying to how the game is NOW is pointless. An example. in wow you can solo to max level. Most people solo to max level. In EQ you can not solo to max level, people group while leveling. In eve there are no 'groups' per se, but there are structures, one person mines, one person makes things, one person does this or that, etc. By filling all supporting roles with alts we have everyones 'main' being a generic combat pilot flying around in whatever their sub-cap ship of choice for pewpew is. If thats all the mains are thats all there is! How one dimensional and boring the game must be then. Quote:
Vabjekf, what I am trying to talk about is the inevitable state of EVE forever.
Probably Quote:
what you're trying to talk about is some grand idea of a space MMO in some alternate universe.
kind of, its not 'a space mmo in some alternative universe', its 'eve in some alternate universe'. The point is to make people depressed that they are stuck with eve and not alternate universe eve, so that they remember all through their lives and maybe years from now some good will come from that ^__^ Quote:
Its cute, if you like having 10k customers and getting the plug pulled on it eventually.(as far as I can see.)
plug pulled eventualy, 10k customers what? 0_o |
Roxanna Kell
Anormalii S.A.
Vera Cruz Alliance |
Posted - 2008.10.04 22:34:00 - [ 127]
Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 04/10/2008 22:53:01 Originally by: Trist Ian
Edited by: Trist Ian on 03/10/2008 02:37:42
It would also make having a capital very hard. Since u would have to rely on everybody else to help u move around. Personally it would be completely dumb. And CCP would also loose alot of players and money.
To the op. Slap yourself!
yeah, this game is made to make moeny tbh. But truth be told, it would be more realistic if u did have to wait for friends to move a capital, that will lead to more stupid people doing it without, therefore reduce capitals. But after 5 years of it being this way, its silly to decrease the characters per account. The account limitation idea is silly, and even if it existed, it cannot be forced: GTC...etc |
Vabjekf |
Posted - 2008.10.04 22:38:00 - [ 128]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
But truth be told, it would be more realistic if u did have to wait for friends to move a capital, that will lead to more stupid people doing it without, therefore reduce capitals.
Yes, there are too many capitals in this game, that or alliances are too big. Or both. Quote:
The account limitation idea is silly, and even if it existed, it cannot be forced: GTC...etc
Which is why i recommended all those measures to help enforce it that i have recommended in this thread ^_^ Remember you don't have to do it perfectly, just enough that most people don't. Then they will naturally become hostile to the people who do and social pressure will make people either stop or feel ashamed and dirty for doing it. |
Is forporn
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas. |
Posted - 2008.10.04 22:51:00 - [ 129]
Originally by: Vabjekf
and social pressure will make people either stop or feel ashamed and dirty for doing it.
facepalm.jpg |
Roxanna Kell
Anormalii S.A.
Vera Cruz Alliance |
Posted - 2008.10.04 22:56:00 - [ 130]
Originally by: Vabjekf
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
But truth be told, it would be more realistic if u did have to wait for friends to move a capital, that will lead to more stupid people doing it without, therefore reduce capitals.
Yes, there are too many capitals in this game, that or alliances are too big. Or both.
Quote:
The account limitation idea is silly, and even if it existed, it cannot be forced: GTC...etc
Which is why i recommended all those measures to help enforce it that i have recommended in this thread ^_^ Remember you don't have to do it perfectly, just enough that most people don't. Then they will naturally become hostile to the people who do and social pressure will make people either stop or feel ashamed and dirty for doing it.
You simply don't expect people who have 10-20 characters, and believe me there is, and all those character are over 20msp. to simply loose them just like that. CCP encouraged people to have more than one character in the past with the power of two promotions..etc I am a one account man now, one time i had 3 but it was unmanageable due to my lack of multitasking. so i decided to stay with the one account, cause it feels right. Now for others, its up to them. and you should simply give in and stop trying to change what most people are ok with because you don't like it. sorry its this way, thats just the way it is |
Max Khaos
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing |
Posted - 2008.10.04 23:03:00 - [ 131]
|
Vabjekf |
Posted - 2008.10.04 23:04:00 - [ 132]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
You simply don't expect people who have 10-20 characters, and believe me there is, and all those character are over 20msp. to simply loose them just like that.
nope Quote:
CCP encouraged people to have more than one character in the past with the power of two promotions..etc
thats a smart business move Quote:
Now for others, its up to them. and you should simply give in and stop trying to change what most people are ok with because you don't like it. sorry its this way, thats just the way it is
ive had plenty of positive feedback because deep down everyone knows that if the game was like this from the start it would have been better ^_____^ im not trying to change anything, as i said if i was recommending ccp do this i would have put it in the suggestions forum. |
Vabjekf |
Posted - 2008.10.04 23:05:00 - [ 133]
|
Syniztur
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2008.10.04 23:30:00 - [ 134]
To the OP:
1) STFU already.
2) Why do you think your "ONE" idea will 'FIX' EvE? All of a sudden you are the mastermind to fix the end-all-be-all? So you are saying the entire team of CCP is just that incompetent? Is that what you are saying? (We know they are far from perfect... that's beside the point)
3) You obviously got your azz handed to you by an alt.
4) You ARE an alt
5) ...
╔═╦═╦╦═╗
║═╣═║║╔╝
║═╣╔╣║╚╗
╚═╩╝╚╩═╝
╔═╦══╦╦╗
║╔╣╔╗║║║
║╚╣╚╝║║║
║╔╣╔╗║║╚╗
╚╝╚╝╚╩╩═╝
.Period.
|
Vabjekf |
Posted - 2008.10.04 23:32:00 - [ 135]
I was taking your post seriously until i saw Originally by: Syniztur
╔═╦═╦╦═╗
║═╣═║║╔╝
║═╣╔╣║╚╗
╚═╩╝╚╩═╝
╔═╦══╦╦╗
║╔╣╔╗║║║
║╚╣╚╝║║║
║╔╣╔╗║║╚╗
╚╝╚╝╚╩╩═╝
You almost had me. |
Syniztur
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2008.10.04 23:43:00 - [ 136]
Originally by: Vabjekf
I was taking your post seriously until i saw
Originally by: Syniztur
╔═╦═╦╦═╗
║═╣═║║╔╝
║═╣╔╣║╚╗
╚═╩╝╚╩═╝
╔═╦══╦╦╗
║╔╣╔╗║║║
║╚╣╚╝║║║
║╔╣╔╗║║╚╗
╚╝╚╝╚╩╩═╝
You almost had me.
Now you know how we feel about you.  However... you still ╔═╦══╦╦╗ ║╔╣╔╗║║║ ║╚╣╚╝║║║ ║╔╣╔╗║║╚╗ ╚╝╚╝╚╩╩═╝ |
Jeneroux
Gallente |
Posted - 2008.10.05 00:28:00 - [ 137]
If I can't play with myself I'm outta here.
Take my second account and you can have the first one too :) |
Roxanna Kell
Anormalii S.A.
Vera Cruz Alliance |
Posted - 2008.10.05 00:34:00 - [ 138]
|
Vabjekf |
Posted - 2008.10.05 00:51:00 - [ 139]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
Frankly what u suggest is good only if it has been implemented from day 1.
Thats all im trying to argue=p |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation |
Posted - 2008.10.05 02:29:00 - [ 140]
Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 05/10/2008 02:29:41
1 character per account is how the game should have been made, but it wasn't. The decision is regrettable, but hindsight is 20/20. CCP got a few decisions right and this was not one of them. But it is pretty stupid they didn't do anything about it.
In my opinion, characters shouldn't be playable (or forum enabled) unless they're training. Thus, only one character on any account would be "primary", and switching wouldn't be something you could do at will. |
Vladimir Ilych
Gradient
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2008.10.05 02:48:00 - [ 141]
I read the first page, essentially I agree with the OP although I also agree that I cannot see CCP changing the current 3 slot per account system.
I have one account with just this one char. If I want an alt I will buy another account. Throw away untrained alts have imho a negative effect on gameplay.
|
Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2008.10.05 05:35:00 - [ 142]
Originally by: Vabjekf
So you are saying you want to be able to do everything and not have to worry about having to make decisions ^__^
If people HAD to depend on others this would change. Thats the problem with the arguments people are making against me. They are envisioning it to be JUST LIKE HOW IT IS NOW, with the ONE THING IM SAYING being different. With out realizing that by changing what im saying it will automatically change the entire environment of the whole game, so that comparing what im saying to how the game is NOW is pointless.
An example. in wow you can solo to max level. Most people solo to max level. In EQ you can not solo to max level, people group while leveling.
In eve there are no 'groups' per se, but there are structures, one person mines, one person makes things, one person does this or that, etc.
By filling all supporting roles with alts we have everyones 'main' being a generic combat pilot flying around in whatever their sub-cap ship of choice for pewpew is. If thats all the mains are thats all there is! How one dimensional and boring the game must be then.
Probably
plug pulled eventualy, 10k customers what? 0_o
Yes because relying on the people, who despite you liking, can be spread across different time zones is really fun. My own corp has a third of its members on US time, 1/3rd on UK time, and the last on australian time zones. We like each other, thats what brings us together, not any function or purpose. Thats what brings most people together in a game. Person, Not role or need. a sole cap I believe my corp has, maybe two. they're flown by their owners and their alt to get around. I even have a rapier and yet I didn't even have cyno field op trained until last month and used it once. Why? Because I'm rarely on when he's on. We don't keep a lot of people in our corp because we exist really. I mean, I know every person online in my alliance. we're out in 0.0, sucky 0.0 mind you, but still. . Back to point one, being able to do everything on one character bad. But when a game makes you commit to your role and then suddenly you find out you're not needed, (try fighting a nano pack without a dedicated well tanked ship like a rapier, with good backup enough to beat ECM and stop your reppers from being jammed) being stuck doing nothing is a problem. a BIG problem. when all you can fly is a good nano tank and there's bubbles and rapiers out there, what can you do, seriously? I can hop on my big battleship character or even my ****block Nighthawk tank and be passively aggressive. [WoW](WoW and other MMO talk ahead, if it burns avert your eyes to below) Likewise, training skills in EVE isn't a matter of grind. other MMOs could actually survive with one character per server, do you know why? Because in WoW and EQ (Yes, EQ, I have played it in the last year and it is perfectly possible to grind yourself solo to max level. maybe not in the past, but today damn easy.) you can make it from level 1-max in 3 weeks usually once you know how to do everything. Want to drop a craft or harvest skill? it'll take you three days tops to max out on them. Yes, you can boast a purple'd out character from level 1 to 70 with 375 skills in WoW without being even remotely dedicated given the knowledge. [/WoW] Compare to EVE, where it can take SIX months to be even a comparable pilot to many and not simply cannon fodder living on one ship at a time, against 3 year + billionaires who CAN throw even a capital ship away! You might never catch up to the lone 4-5 year pilot, but with two accounts and two trained characters, you can have two characters trained with two year's time to them like I do, and not be quite as disadvantaged. One character, one player period, is not a game I'd like anything to do with. Given my main's skills are fairly bad and I made an achura on a second account to FIX that and not lose 6 months training, is what's kept me paying $30 a month. (plus GTCs for isk!) |
Trader Altperson |
Posted - 2008.10.05 05:36:00 - [ 143]
Um... how do u move ur stuff ti another character role players |
Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2008.10.05 05:43:00 - [ 144]
One more bit because I ran out of room, this game would have been terrible if it were like that from the start without Alts to make space harder to traverse and plug skills as needed.
Look at Warp to zero changes
Concord
superhighways
capital jumping
Rigs that made iteron Vs mini warehouses
Freighters
Jump Freighters
The Space Mall known as Jita
Jump clones (love them!)
yes, All great changes that made EVE more manageable. Even without second accounts people can be across the galaxy in an hour, literally. (I believe the longest point across EVE jump wise just from session timers is a little over an hour at this point, assuming a fast warping ship) |
Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2008.10.05 05:44:00 - [ 145]
Edited by: Kage Psychodin on 05/10/2008 05:58:17 Originally by: Trader Altperson
Um... how do u move ur stuff ti another character role players
That one is easy, everyone makes a friend or two. Give them everything not soulbound, disenchant your gear, swap your gold/plat and then swap it back. (I have no better term for how to describe it out of fantasy MMO terms, sorry.) |
El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.10.05 09:42:00 - [ 146]
If this had been done in the beginning it might have been okay.
At this point in the game though it would be very difficult to do such a change without a drastic loss in subscriptions similar to what SWG suffered after their Nov 15th 2005 release of the NGE revamp.
At best now what you could do is force all characters on the same account to be in the same corp. Which while it would help some would not eliminate the spying. |
EglantinFinfleur
Selectus Pravus Lupus
Transmission Lost |
Posted - 2008.10.06 06:28:00 - [ 147]
Originally by: Vladimir Ilych
I read the first page, essentially I agree with the OP although I also agree that I cannot see CCP changing the current 3 slot per account system.
I have one account with just this one char. If I want an alt I will buy another account. Throw away untrained alts have imho a negative effect on gameplay.
Problem is not so much the throwaway alts on your main account, as the secondary, tertiary etc accounts. EvE ceases to be a game, and becomes a hobby in which your competitive efficiency is measured by your real-life resources, since you can manage two or more accounts at once because you've got more money or more time to grind isk and buy GTCs, than another gamer. Note that by real-life resources i mean only money (or time to grind GTCs, not training/in-game skills time as it's not relevant to multi-account simultaneous use), and not skill as a player. When those two factors can enable you to multiply your efficiency in a game, something is clearly wrong, the rules are not the same for everyone, and the goals switch from standard gaming fun to overcoming your adversary by allowed metagaming. |
Vabjekf |
Posted - 2008.10.06 06:47:00 - [ 148]
Originally by: Kage Psychodin
Yes because relying on the people, who despite you liking, can be spread across different time zones is really fun. My own corp has a third of its members on US time, 1/3rd on UK time, and the last on australian time zones. We like each other, thats what brings us together, not any function or purpose. Thats what brings most people together in a game. Person, Not role or need. a sole cap I believe my corp has, maybe two. they're flown by their owners and their alt to get around. I even have a rapier and yet I didn't even have cyno field op trained until last month and used it once. Why? Because I'm rarely on when he's on. We don't keep a lot of people in our corp because we exist really. I mean, I know every person online in my alliance. we're out in 0.0, sucky 0.0 mind you, but still.
And this is why in any mmo playing only with people in your guild (corp, clan, whatever) is a bad idea. Its more necessary in EVE because people generally take an 'us vs them' attitude, more or less out of necessity due to not being able to trust people... which as i outlined in the OP can be blamed a substantial part on alts. And before you argue what i see as the logical argument against that: 0.0 would also be much more crowded with out alts, so there would be more 'neutral' persons for you to play with=p You want time investment. Ive spent months working on a SINGLE CHARACTER in another mmo, whos soul job was group support. Then one day everyone decided they wanted to dual box a buff bot. Why group with me when you can get the same advantage with out it taking exp? Or a more eve related note. What if some newbie started up and wanted nothing more than to be an explorer? Just to find things, thats all. Thats a respectable profession if you ask me, seeking out knowledge and new things. Only theres no way to make a living because everyone just has alts to do it with. Again, the problem with eve is that there are only a couple real professions, everything other than mining and sub-cap-gank-ship-of-choice (used for missions or pvp) is just for alts to do. Even trade can be done by alts, though there are 'trader' mains i know, but at least they can get away with doing it. What if you wanted to be a 'researcher'? lol! And by catering to this CCP effectively avoids having to make all of these things that are not 'shoot asteroids or shoot people/npcs' interesting deep enough for people to actually do. If something is ONLY suitable for an alt to do, there is something broken about it. It goes beyond even people with multiple alts having an advantage, it goes to the ridiculous realm of entire parts of the games content not even being fit for someone to actually do with their main! Come to think of it, i can not think of a single MMO that has stuff ONLY for alts. |
Wikka
Mosquito Squad |
Posted - 2008.10.06 07:47:00 - [ 149]
This is becoming a whiny flame thread.
what is needed is people to think of solutions to the problems with the game mechanics (ephasize THINK)
for instance having alts is a pain as it does encorage scammers / suicide alts & spys but to remove them would unfairly penalise established players and restrict legitimate gameplay.
Bring in a way to find peoples alts (known asociates) and that problem vanishes.
Regards to caps - there already a big isk sink if someone wants to invest in one let him. Most will find the whole personal cap affair unprofitable.
|
Synapse Archae
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 08:28:00 - [ 150]
Say what you want, but he's right.
Plus it would give CCP a good reason to fix all those mechanics that are so broken but can be 'fixed' if you have an alt. Things like supercapital ownership, making money with PVP, and intelligence gathering.
Those could be done with way more interesting and important mechanics with lots of options for broadening ths skill tree but instead the endgame is "buy an alt." blah. |
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