Posted - 2008.09.27 06:23:00 - [31]

 

Originally by: Akita T

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Making them imune to EWar would be "just the thing" to revive CS usage.
I stole this idea from another thread

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Aye, I really hope CCP are listening here..

Posted - 2008.09.27 07:14:00 - [33]

 

Originally by: Akita T

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Making them imune to EWar would be "just the thing" to revive CS usage.
I stole this idea from another thread

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Immune might be a bit much, but resistant, that I could go with. It would certainly give them a distinctive role... and make them much more useful as the small gang/solo ships the Field commands should be.

Something like "Role bonus -10% per level to all E-War effects" with ECM effects being countered by either a reduction in duration or just an increase in sensor strength. Or better yet, just a simple "second roll of the dice" - a 10-50% chance of not working, since Command Ships don't have very impressive sensor strengths. (An extra point or 2 of sensor strength and a few more KM locking range might be a nice, reasonably subtle but useful CS buff).

Posted - 2008.09.27 08:58:00 - [35]

 

Its not like the ships are useless by any means, but the cost that used to be justified by there uniqeness is now a little over the top.

I think its not the Command shis innate abilities that make it overpriced but the budget nature of T3 BC, and to a certain extent the increased abilities of HACS.

A chap earlier mentioned the zealot in comparison to abaddon, also consider a Eagle compared to a vulture. Eagle can put out more damage than its command ship sniper counterpart ?
Something not quite right there I think..

Posted - 2008.09.27 10:38:00 - [37]

 

Quote:

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You can fit a nice XL tank on a sleipnir yes, but it'll only continue to be nice for about 35 seconds, when your cap bottoms out. The advantage to flying a sleipnir pre-nerf is that its speed and thus its ability to dictate range (for the most part) allows it to not have to perma-run its booster. In terms of sustainable DPS tanked, the sleipnir falls FAR short when compared to any other field command and even some tier 2 BCs. Post nerf, it can't dictate range any better than any of the other ships of its class. So now it's a ship with inferior damage, an inferior tank, and now it can't dictate range. Sounds a lot like a dead ship to me.

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If you play around with the sleip you can get a 800dps tank and be able to sustain it using a large booster, which i do.

And for those idiots who seem to think there t1 counterparts can do the same job or if not better are compleatly out of there faces.
There is no way a prophecy or harbring can stand up to an asbo, or cyclone and a hurricane to a sleipnir.

The cs still play a vry good role. There dps is amazing for the ship of there size and the ppl who have the skills to fly them 90% of the time have far superior suport skills to those who bumb about in bs's.

I have only every encountered one bs in my time that i could not take down with my CS and that was my ceo's geddon, but it was a plate n tr-mark geddon and he has maxed skills in everything.

A boost would be nice, but isnt needed. Get the skills and the support skills and the CS come into a role of there own.

Posted - 2008.09.27 11:09:00 - [39]

 

Edited by: BiggestT on 27/09/2008 11:31:38
Edited by: BiggestT on 27/09/2008 11:30:54

Originally by: Archonus

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Quote:

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No its got nice dmg, good tank, and is the fastest command ship (you wanna complain about range then go fly an astarte and see how that goes lol) plus the fit includes cap 800's on a med cap booster to sustain cap

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Try reading the post next time before you reply to it. PRE-NERF, it is the fastest command ship, it's damage is completely subpar unless you're 1000m away with hail, and like I said, it's tank has the highest max dps tankable while also being by far the worst in sustained dps tanking. Permarunning a T2 XL booster will cap you out in just over a minute, regardless of whether or not you have cap boosters. Any experience flying it would draw you to the same conclusion. One would say to stagger the boosts, but while an XL tanked sleipnir may have the best max dps tankable as I previously stated, It's not by very much. To keep up with any reasonable dps (650+), you WILL have to permarun that booster. As I said in my original post, right NOW, it's speed makes up for these downfalls for the most part. It CAN stagger it's booster because generally it isn't absorbing as much raw dps due to it's ability to fight outside most weapon ranges. Take away it's speed and you negate its main advantage. At close range, it doesn't stand a chance against an astarte or abso, to be frank.

On top of all this, it was cursed with the inherent disadvantages of autocannons in general. Your alleged "good dps" is actually complete ****e when you factor in where a sleipnir generally positions itself in a fight, which is in falloff. Sitting at roughly 20km, which is the average kiting distance when it comes to the sleipnir/vaga, you're doing less than half the DPS you see in EFT. Your 750 total DPS becomes 400 or less depending on your skills. You're essentially condemned to this if you're fighting a semi-competent piloted and/or close range fitted ship too.

If these changes go through, the sleipnir in its otherwise current state will be essentially useless compared to its other field command counterparts.

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I was talking about post nerf

Quote:

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Actually you can still fit quite a nice x-l active tank, mwd with 220mm ac's, ambits and a warfare link post nerf.
Its tank cant hold much vs. high alpha, but would be great for small gangs/solo work.

But then we go back to cost blah and we all cry again -.-

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I think YOU need to learn to read

I that setup only has a mwd and notiing else and will still be the fastest cs. Its the fastest command ship and gets good dps, with ambits its range is not bad, but def. not great. I agree the fall-off thing is a bit nasty, but thats more a projectile problem than sleip problem.

If you using the "post-nerf will make sleip worst cs" plz dont. Astarte is getting much more gimped than sleip. The Sleip will be nerfed yes, but can still fulfill its role properly unlike most field cs.

However its still too expensive to really be worth flying over a tier 2 bc.
edit: bold underline

Posted - 2008.09.27 11:11:00 - [41]

 

Originally by: Pharaik

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Quote:

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You can fit a nice XL tank on a sleipnir yes, but it'll only continue to be nice for about 35 seconds, when your cap bottoms out. The advantage to flying a sleipnir pre-nerf is that its speed and thus its ability to dictate range (for the most part) allows it to not have to perma-run its booster. In terms of sustainable DPS tanked, the sleipnir falls FAR short when compared to any other field command and even some tier 2 BCs. Post nerf, it can't dictate range any better than any of the other ships of its class. So now it's a ship with inferior damage, an inferior tank, and now it can't dictate range. Sounds a lot like a dead ship to me.

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If you play around with the sleip you can get a 800dps tank and be able to sustain it using a large booster, which i do.

And for those idiots who seem to think there t1 counterparts can do the same job or if not better are compleatly out of there faces.
There is no way a prophecy or harbring can stand up to an asbo, or cyclone and a hurricane to a sleipnir.

The cs still play a vry good role. There dps is amazing for the ship of there size and the ppl who have the skills to fly them 90% of the time have far superior suport skills to those who bumb about in bs's.

I have only every encountered one bs in my time that i could not take down with my CS and that was my ceo's geddon, but it was a plate n tr-mark geddon and he has maxed skills in everything.

A boost would be nice, but isnt needed. Get the skills and the support skills and the CS come into a role of there own.

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I never said once that a bc was better.
But damn its v. close and considering next to 0 cost of a bc its a really poor gain for cost increase.

Posted - 2008.09.27 11:38:00 - [43]

 

Edited by: Pharaik on 27/09/2008 11:39:45
Edited by: Pharaik on 27/09/2008 11:39:02

Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/09/2008 11:29:45

Originally by: Pharaik

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If you play around with the sleip you can get a 800dps tank and be able to sustain it using a large booster, which i do.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Let me guess: in PVE? Because, short of crystal clones, you're not getting a 800 DPS tank out of a large booster. Not to mention the fact that [u]800 DPS tank is total **** for serious fighting

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Actually no its not PVE its pure PVP and yes sorry i got my numbers wrong its not 800 its 880. And no implants its just skills and brains on how to fit the ship.

Originally by: Cpt Branko

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The only CS which tanks worth a damn in a small gang is the Absolution, because you can get 100-110K EHP (with three damage mods), and it benefits from RRs more then your average BS. The only downside of the ship is that fitting a warfare link (which is the point of flying a CS over a BS anyway) requires downgrading a part of the guns to FMPs.

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Why do ppl insist on putting warefare links on a abso??? its not its role, the role of the ship is DPS and Tank not gang warefare, that is the damnations job.
And for your info a sleip out damages and out tanks an absolution.

Originally by: Pharaik

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The cs still play a vry good role. There dps is amazing for the ship of there size and the ppl who have the skills to fly them 90% of the time have far superior suport skills to those who bumb about in bs's.

I have only every encountered one bs in my time that i could not take down with my CS and that was my ceo's geddon, but it was a plate n tr-mark geddon and he has maxed skills in everything.

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Get out more. Most BS pilots I fly with will trivially fry your 800 DPS tank Sleipnir. Plate+trimark BS are the norm rather then the exception - except in case of tank bonused BS which outdo Sleipnir fits easy.

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Yeah your right they do. But at what skill lvl most cant use t2 guns or t2 drones. 80% of pilots who fly bs in this game are idiots, dont have the skills and get into the biggest ship they can find and go for it. And fry my tank? i dont think so mate, i move faster more agile and as soon as i get under your fall off which im sure to do and quick your so called frying bs will do jack all. The 800+ dps tank is cap stable, your tank bs are not or arnt in most cases. I will glady take my sleip and test this out if u dont belive me.

On more occasion than not you tlk out of ur ass Cpt Branko.

Posted - 2008.09.27 12:02:00 - [45]

 

Originally by: Pharaik

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Edited by: Pharaik on 27/09/2008 11:39:45
Edited by: Pharaik on 27/09/2008 11:39:02

Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/09/2008 11:29:45

Originally by: Pharaik

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If you play around with the sleip you can get a 800dps tank and be able to sustain it using a large booster, which i do.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Let me guess: in PVE? Because, short of crystal clones, you're not getting a 800 DPS tank out of a large booster. Not to mention the fact that [u]800 DPS tank is total **** for serious fighting

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Actually no its not PVE its pure PVP and yes sorry i got my numbers wrong its not 800 its 880. And no implants its just skills and brains on how to fit the ship.

Originally by: Cpt Branko

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The only CS which tanks worth a damn in a small gang is the Absolution, because you can get 100-110K EHP (with three damage mods), and it benefits from RRs more then your average BS. The only downside of the ship is that fitting a warfare link (which is the point of flying a CS over a BS anyway) requires downgrading a part of the guns to FMPs.

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Why do ppl insist on putting warefare links on a abso??? its not its role, the role of the ship is DPS and Tank not gang warefare, that is the damnations job.
And for your info a sleip out damages and out tanks an absolution.

Originally by: Pharaik

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The cs still play a vry good role. There dps is amazing for the ship of there size and the ppl who have the skills to fly them 90% of the time have far superior suport skills to those who bumb about in bs's.

I have only every encountered one bs in my time that i could not take down with my CS and that was my ceo's geddon, but it was a plate n tr-mark geddon and he has maxed skills in everything.

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Get out more. Most BS pilots I fly with will trivially fry your 800 DPS tank Sleipnir. Plate+trimark BS are the norm rather then the exception - except in case of tank bonused BS which outdo Sleipnir fits easy.

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Yeah your right they do. But at what skill lvl most cant use t2 guns or t2 drones. 80% of pilots who fly bs in this game are idiots, dont have the skills and get into the biggest ship they can find and go for it. And fry my tank? i dont think so mate, i move faster more agile and as soon as i get under your fall off which im sure to do and quick your so called frying bs will do jack all. The 800+ dps tank is cap stable, your tank bs are not or arnt in most cases. I will glady take my sleip and test this out if u dont belive me.

On more occasion than not you tlk out of ur ass Cpt Branko.

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Chill out ppl, lets not derail this thread, before hand it has been very constructive, nit-picks at tiny things in eachothers arguments wont help anyone.

The facts are this.
CS are great, but compared to their t1 tier 2 counterparts, their only a slight upgrade, however they cost exponenitally more, and due to primary calling and focus fire, ppl are discouraged to fly them (which is bad imo, the goal should be opposite, get out of bc into cs). And their fleet boosting role is outdone by the cheaper, more tanked fleet commands, sorta making them a wierd middle child that are neither here or there..

Reducing cost or giving some kind of ew resistance could maybe help the lame situation CS are in right now.

Posted - 2008.09.27 12:28:00 - [47]

 

Originally by: BiggestT

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The facts are this.
CS are great, but compared to their t1 tier 2 counterparts, their only a slight upgrade, however they cost exponenitally more, and due to primary calling and focus fire, ppl are discouraged to fly them (which is bad imo, the goal should be opposite, get out of bc into cs). And their fleet boosting role is outdone by the cheaper, more tanked fleet commands, sorta making them a wierd middle child that are neither here or there..

Reducing cost or giving some kind of ew resistance could maybe help the lame situation CS are in right now.

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Well, the thing is, Field CS should (in theory) be the ships which are in the thick of things with the rest of them while providing a warfare link and DPS/tank.

Therefore, CS which cannot fit a warfare link in a PvP setups are generally speaking useless. CS without resist bonuses and good EHP available are useless because you need BS-level EHP in order to not get melted by even modest amounts of focus fire.

Having BS level EHP is important for staying power - their (sub BS, but sizeable) gank is quite fine, but their buffers are lacking, meaning RRs can't be used to keep them alive effectively (generally speaking - you could get a Absolution to preform well here), and they're highly suspectible to focus fire clearing them out extremely fast.

Posted - 2008.09.27 14:02:00 - [49]

 

was assault ships better than a cruiser? no.
was a commmand better than a bs? no.
but thats also depends on the characters skill point, ship setup, and whether is a pilot noob or not. other than that bigger is better applies here :P

Posted - 2008.09.27 15:02:00 - [51]

 

Edited by: BiggestT on 27/09/2008 15:29:35

Originally by: Akiman

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was assault ships better than a cruiser? no.
was a commmand better than a bs? no.
but thats also depends on the characters skill point, ship setup, and whether is a pilot noob or not. other than that bigger is better applies here :P

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assault ships to cruisers and cs to bs actually share the exact same issue:
-Cost too high for mediocre gain over t1 counterpart
-Beaten by "one size up" t1 ships that are much cheaper

But assault ships are broken and cs are broken for these reasons, its hardly a fair assumption :P

Posted - 2008.09.27 19:23:00 - [53]

 

I've been following this thread for about a day now and have to say that this is an issue that has been bugging me ever since i maxed cs5 and med blaster 5.

Having a bit of time in an Astarte I can tell you that they work wonders in certain situations however are lack luster against anyone who knows their shortcomings. Most of the things have been summed up, less speed, less hp, same number of slots ect compared to their t1 tier 2 counter parts and to top it off they are much MUCH more expensive.

As far as the Astarte goes there is really no way to fit a gang link on it w/o totally gimping your setup. On top of that active tanking is rather pointless in PvP and there is really no use to fitting a passive tank as you're rendering one of your ships bonuses pointless/gimping grid for guns ect...

I propose a few changes.
Hp increase, nothing complicated about this.
Speed increase (an Astarte should be faster than a mega...)
Slot increase
Change Gallente and Minmitar tanking bonuses to a dmg resistance rather than boost/rep ammount.

Field command ships should be a ship capable of full out combat but at the same time bring a gang link module for support. They should be a bit faster and more agile than a battleship however not too fast or agile where they start to tread on the advantages of HACs. I do NOT think a Field Command should be able to expect a victory against a t2 fit Battleship however I do not think that the t2 BS should expect victory against the Field Command. For that to happen both tanks and more importantly cap needs to be increased to allow for longer staying time against the world of large Nuets, remember Field commands can only use a med injector with a small cargo hold so i think base cap/recharge should be increased to offset this major disadvantage. Overall I think that a Battleship should retain it's sluggfest advantage over the Field command where the Field commands speed and gang mod utilities make up for less ehp, and dps.

Posted - 2008.09.27 20:50:00 - [55]

 

Originally by: POS Engineer

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Its not like the ships are useless by any means, but the cost that used to be justified by there uniqeness is now a little over the top.

I think its not the Command shis innate abilities that make it overpriced but the budget nature of T3 BC, and to a certain extent the increased abilities of HACS.

A chap earlier mentioned the zealot in comparison to abaddon, also consider a Eagle compared to a vulture. Eagle can put out more damage than its command ship sniper counterpart ?
Something not quite right there I think..

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Eagle outperforming the vulture at sniping isnt really an argument because the fleet commands are not supposed to be dealing damage, their role is to boost the fleet. Any dps you get out of it is just there to get you on KMs.

The part where all commands should get an extra tank slot, reduction in GAM fitting reqs sounds good. I have never heard of CCP commenting on command ship issues though so i doubt they'll ever look at them.

Posted - 2008.09.27 22:07:00 - [57]

 

Originally by: Mutabae

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Sure, the EOS is no longer the incredible killing machine it was a year ago, but....

I guess people refuse to do math. An Eos gets an awesome gang-boost with its information link bonus. I infer because gang-mates can't see immediate effects from their mods stabbing people in the face, they conclude the Eos sucks? Dunno, since it seems like a really nice bonus to me.

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The Eos sucks because it's bonuses aren't as valuable as other FCS's link bonuses are. This isn't debatable. It's a simple fact. The armor/shield/speed bonuses are far more valuable than any of the Eos's EW bonuses.

Posted - 2008.09.28 00:54:00 - [59]

 

Originally by: Fon Revedhort

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I'd say the proper way of fixing things might be the following:

- reduce the fitting requirments of those pesky GAM's so that they don't gimp your setup . (this might result in a need of re-balancing fleet CS as well, but who cares? That's still a change we've been craving for ages)
- add like +1 tanking slot for each CS (meds for Sleip and Nighthawk, lows for Astarte and Abso)
- boost PG/CPU accordingly.

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If you were adding slots, I would give astarte an extra high (all others can fit a warfare link without sacrificing a bonused weapon slot), sleip and NH an extra mid (allowing NH to fit tackle and tank, and sleip to fit a large booster and boost amp, for a decent cap sustainable tank), absolution should get an extra low, for more resist/gank/pg for bigger guns goodness (can't really justify a 4th mid I don't think , much though I would like one).

Then give them all the fitting to use their slots properly :give astarte more grid/cpu to fit link/nos, sleip more CPU (so you could choose to fit XL/ web/ point/ invul/ injector/ mwd, instead of the large+boost amp). Absolution would need a little more grid and cpu, and NH needs a lot more grid, so a HAMgank setup along the lines of the buffer drake is viable.