Posted - 2008.09.24 12:46:00 - [61]

 

Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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Post the plated Mega fit that has enuff fitting for a Heavy Nos.

No really. I'm interested.

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[Megathron, New Setup 1]
Internal Force Field Array I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Ancillary Current Router I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I

Ogre II x5


There you go. Now you can stop crying.

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lacks buffer, and relying on an ACR to shoehorn everything is even worse.


anyways, meyrin is right, and I can't find anything in wich I disagree with her.

only solutions I would do would to be "respec" some of the staple ships and improve others.

like making the 'thron a better fleet ship and the hype a better B-ship (thron with more armor, targetting range and cpu, but less agility and more mass, and hype with a better(rof? armor HP?) bonus instead that repping bonus and a 8/4/7 slot setup).

but that's just one of many ideas. ideally the solution would be to make blaster ships rely less on local tanking and more in remote tanking (yes, boost oneiros, and make remote repping a field where gallente would be the best), but still having some staple fleet ships.

even other change that might help gallente would be to increase optimal of damps, but that's an whole diferent issue.



I still believe that there is a way to put point-blank high-dps ships in game without screwing balance and still make them viable tools, but this means a revamp, in many aspects of pvp as we know it.

Posted - 2008.09.24 12:50:00 - [63]

 

Originally by: bldyannoyed

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Even before Lasers,Amarr and Torpedoes got buffed through the roof the drawbacks of blasters in gangs already outweighed the benefit of high DPS.

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Thats not true. Before torp buff and armor em nerf EVERYONE was flying around in blaster megas.

Posted - 2008.09.24 12:55:00 - [65]

 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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...FW is the perfect example. CCP didn't declare "FW is for blobs", they made lots of objectives spread out everywhere, a near-perfect environment for solo/small-gang PvP. But guess what happened: the players ignored the solo/small-gang options and brought blobs.

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I completely and utterly concur.

I joined up in my one man corp for some extra fun with FW. I had no 'proper' access to 0.0 and wanted to be able to fight against the 'enemy' in low-sec without having to tank sentries, or stay in 0.4 or less. FW was for me, a superb addition to the game.

Problem was, FW ended up being just like 0.0 without the bubbles, until Heavy Interdictors became more prevalent. No-one wanted to small gang with me as they preferred the relative safety of 25+ gateblobs. I don't know for sure, but suspect that CCP didn't really intend this to happen and merely wanted the Empire pvp'ers to have some added enjoyment since 0.0 is mostly alliance based and is practically for all intensive purposes, locked down to a lot of players not in corp' that are not in an alliance. I don't want to be in another alliance with all it's inherent politics and having to move stuff around for absolutely loads of jumps. I don't want to sit firing at an enemy pos for three hours and be gangwarped all over the bloody place, lol.

Merin,

I apologise if I have veered away from your main points, but as usual your understanding of EvE is way beyond my comprehension - not that I'm thick, lol, far from it - but I'm just not into it as much as you . I just wanted to lend my support to the point about FW being gazumped by what people perceive to be 0.0 in low-sec.

Posted - 2008.09.24 13:03:00 - [67]

 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/09/2008 13:23:44
I don't think respeccing the ships to fleet ships is a good solution really.

What most blaster ship pilots would prefer isn't really viability in large gangs / fleets (I doubt they'd be flying blasterboats if that were the case, they have always been inferior as gang sizes go up) - it's putting back their close-range superiority to the levels where it was before Amarr & Caldari DPS boosts.

Not even touching the metagame shift, Caldari and Amarr could always do better at long range, but the torp buff (in case of Caldari) and the combined tracking buff + resist nerf + BS boosts (in case of Amarr) have largely reduced/eliminated their inferiority at close ranges even at situations which would traditionally favour blasterboats. Proposed web/MWD nerf just reduces any leftover blasterboat advantages in situations that should favour blasters in the first place, as range control has been made more difficult and tracking issues become more pronounced.

I see the infringement of Caldari/Amarr on Gallente short range superiority a much bigger issue then the fact Caldari/Amarr are superior gang ships compared to blasterboats.*

Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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How about you show me amarr or caldari Bs that can fit injection, mwd, web, point and compare their tanks and dps and you might understand why.

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Uhhh... Abbadon? Awesome buffer tank, high DPS, can fit it all? Even a full tackle Geddon works for station/gate huggery where MWD is not a necessity.

With Caldari, you have a limited point, but really, Raven is completely fine as long as you don't fit full tackle + MWD (say, you have two ravens, with each fitting one mid worth of tackle), thanks to the fact invulns are overloadable. Post nano nerf, it will in fact do significantly better vs smaller targets which the Mega can't really do anything about, at all, so even a full tackle Raven has a wider engagement envelope (while a full tackle Mega is going to die to the first HAC).

Post nano nerf (if it happens the way they're proposing), it would not be a big surprise to kill a Megathron with a full-tackle Raven... the small DPS/EHP advantage you have is completely offset by the tracking issues you'll have.

In all small gang (where small gangs are < 5 people, or < 10 people at most) situations (where having a extra mid over a Geddon/Raven means nothing, but combat is still fairly short range), the Megathron is largely pointless.

*At best, we can claim that the Mega will still be somewhat better for BS soloing (while being powerless post patch vs a short-range HAC) which is definitely getting nerfed post patch (see web nerf - a short range HAC = death for your Megathron now - while a Raven will easily dispense of it). Where it used to be king is both solo and small gang - where the Caldari/Amarr DPS buffs defeated it's small gang purpose and now web nerf nerfs both its short range purpose AND BS soloing in general.

Posted - 2008.09.24 13:17:00 - [69]

 

First off, when was the last time solo-BS PvP was really common? Cos thats what you're talking about.

What everyone else is talking about is fleet and gang warfare, what 95% of all Eve PvP now revolves around.

In a fleet a Raven can do Blaster DPS at 30KM with a better buffer than a Mega. It's a more useful ship. Same applies to Amarr BS, specially geddon and Abadonn. And actually, a Raven can be easily fitted with MWD, Point and buffer, and assuming the fight started outside web range could conceivably beat a Megathron 1v1 anyway.

Posted - 2008.09.24 13:36:00 - [71]

 

Originally by: bldyannoyed

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And actually, a Raven can be easily fitted with MWD, Point and buffer, and assuming the fight started outside web range could conceivably beat a Megathron 1v1 anyway.

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At any range, actually, which is the galling part. Either is hasn't a web but a second LSE and it wins because it has more EHP, no tracking or range problems and just a smidgeon less theoretical damage (a lucky Mega might manage to run out of scram range and warp before dying), or it has a web and wins because it is faster and more maneuverable and has no tracking or range problems.

Posted - 2008.09.24 13:50:00 - [73]

 

Soloing in a BS is not a good idea.

I solo, I do it in stuff thats cheap so that i dont care when the inevitable 3 falcons decloak on my head. I'll use a BS solo in an empire war and thats about it.

Second, rails in anything other than a total sniper fit are just a **** poor attempt at pulse lasrers. Worse tracking, worse DPS, and using closer range ammo they actually have less optimal than Mega Pulses and Torpedoes. Go figure.

Third, a Raven can beat a Mega solo like i said, as long as the fight starts outside web range. The Raven is faster, and has better dps outside web ranges. The Mega takes full damage from faction torps wihout a painter, and once double or triple plated and triple armor rigged is so much slower than a Raven its funny.

As a result the Raven needs only MWD and point. that leaves 3 damage mods and 5 slots to buffer tank. DCU II in a low slot and 4 shield mods.

So actually it gets better dps at better range with a better buffer and all the tackle kit it needs to down a Mega.

Next argument?

Posted - 2008.09.24 13:55:00 - [75]

 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/09/2008 13:54:47

Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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Excuse me but if you wanted mid range ships, ie between rail and blaster range, why the hell did you not train a mid range race like AMARR?! Seriously, you have yourself to blame.

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Tbh, if you want short range ships, you want to train Amarr too. That's what we're talking about

The mid-range viability (without refitting!) is just a added plus.

Posted - 2008.09.24 13:58:00 - [77]

 

Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/09/2008 13:54:47

Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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Excuse me but if you wanted mid range ships, ie between rail and blaster range, why the hell did you not train a mid range race like AMARR?! Seriously, you have yourself to blame.

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Tbh, if you want short range ships, you want to train Amarr too. That's what we're talking about

The mid-range viability (without refitting!) is just a added plus.

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Geddon cant fit full tackle with 3 mids and abaddons cost alot in comparison. Blaster BS are still very viable for small gang and solo work. If you wanted the mid ranged 0.0 fleet BSs, outside the rail sniping ranges, you trained the wrong race.

Posted - 2008.09.24 14:02:00 - [79]

 

Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/09/2008 13:54:47

Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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Excuse me but if you wanted mid range ships, ie between rail and blaster range, why the hell did you not train a mid range race like AMARR?! Seriously, you have yourself to blame.

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Tbh, if you want short range ships, you want to train Amarr too. That's what we're talking about

The mid-range viability (without refitting!) is just a added plus.

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Geddon cant fit full tackle with 3 mids and abaddons cost alot in comparison. Blaster BS are still very viable for small gang and solo work. If you wanted the mid ranged 0.0 fleet BSs, outside the rail sniping ranges, you trained the wrong race.

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1. BS fitting tackle in a gang is rather self defeating. Your lock speed is too slow to catch stuff b4 its gone. Your speed is too slow to catch stuff to tackle if it intends to run. The tackle is done by real tacklers. Hence, in a gang, BS don't need their mids for tackle. With the prevalence of ECM falcons/bb/scorp, ECCM are the obvious choice for spare mids. A MWD, cap inject, 1 to spare.

2. Abaddon costs not much more after insurance. And yeah, blaster bs will always be viable for solo and tiny gangs. It's simply that you miss the point of the OP.

Posted - 2008.09.24 14:04:00 - [81]

 

Originally by: Zana Kito

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1. BS fitting tackle in a gang is rather self defeating. Your lock speed is too slow to catch stuff b4 its gone. Your speed is too slow to catch stuff to tackle if it intends to run.

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Then you have never seen pvp in low sec. Learn something about this game and then come talk.

Posted - 2008.09.24 14:07:00 - [83]

 

Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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I did train Amarr.

Now I have the best sniper, the best mid range and extremely competitive close range ships, in all classes except tech 1 cruisers.

I'm a happy bunny.

It's the Gallents i feel sorry for.

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Gallente have great solo ships in all ship classes and are very easy even for a noob to be efficient in. Ofcourse soloing is not for everyone and its a good thing you picked amarr so you can hide behind a fleet and pewpew all day.

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I don't behind anything.

I've also got Caldari and Minmatar trained, all the way to tech 2.

I can pretty much fly the best ship for any given scenario with a full tech 2 fit.

And guess what.

90% the time the best ship is Amarr or Caldari. Hell, Amarr even has better nano boats than Minmatar.

I don't even bother to own a Megathron anymore. Even a 2 man gang benefits more from a Torp Raven or Amarr Mega Pulse kill boat.

Posted - 2008.09.24 14:11:00 - [85]

 

Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 24/09/2008 14:11:10

Originally by: Cpt Branko

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They would if it wasn't for insurance. It costs maybe 10-15 million more when you consider that (driving the loss cost from about 75/80-ish million to 85-90ish million), and you get a completely solo-capable BS with full tackle, plenty of EHP and very high DPS.

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Not true. Abaddons fitting cost alot more. 8 megapulses are expensive compared to DHP. Generally geddon doesnt get rigged either because its extremely cheap while the price tag of abaddon + fitting does warrant trimarks. Its quite alot more then 10-15 mill. And not to mention abaddon doesnt have a utility high like mega and geddon.

Posted - 2008.09.24 14:14:00 - [87]

 

Originally by: bldyannoyed

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2 points:

1. Who the **** needs to fit DHP's?

2. Generally Geddons, like most BS, DO get rigged because the performance boost is worth the cost increase.

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hahahahaha youre just so wrong.

Posted - 2008.09.24 14:16:00 - [89]

 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/09/2008 14:16:49

Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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They would if it wasn't for insurance. It costs maybe 10-15 million more when you consider that (driving the loss cost from about 75/80-ish million to 85-90ish million), and you get a completely solo-capable BS with full tackle, plenty of EHP and very high DPS.

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Not true. Abaddons fitting cost alot more. 8 megapulses are expensive compared to DHP. Generally geddon doesnt get rigged either because its extremely cheap while the price tag of abaddon + fitting does warrant trimarks. Its quite alot more then 10-15 mill.

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Was comparing it to a Mega actually, but everyone I know fits trimarks, on all their BS (yes, tier 1 too). Plate tankers are very weak without trimarks on battleship level, they just don't compete with anything.

All the even semi-competent geddon pilots I've flown with (or against) were trimarking their ships. My typhoons are always trimarked. Trimarks are, like, standard fitting for a BS. I don't see what reasonably fitted BS you could solo in a un-trimarked ship.