| Author |
Topic |
Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 13:34:00 - [ 1]
Since the outbreak of this conflict I remained neutral and preached understanding. I have tried to help people realize we are all the same and that war accomplishes nothing but destruction on all sides. This all ended in the flash of a cruise missile.
Earlier this week I was flying an unarmed shuttle through concord protected Federation space when a small fleet of State Militia ships jumped in to engage Federation Militia ships massing at this location. The battle was very evenly balanced with ships falling on both sides when a state ship targeted my shuttle. Before I had a chance to consider escape, a cruise missile obliterated my shuttle, killing my sister.
In the confusion of the battle, Concord sensor recordings could not determine which ship fired the missile but I will never erase the memory of the target lock I saw just before my sister was killed in cold blood.
I once thought that I could help people find their way to peace but I now know see this is impossible and there are those who must be stopped by any means possible. Yesterday I joined Andreus Ixiris and Mixed Metaphor and will not stop until no State pilot ever has the capability to kill an innocent civilian again. |
Sky Grunthor
Minmatar
Conflagration.
Wildly Inappropriate. |
Posted - 2008.09.10 13:38:00 - [ 2]
Civility is often one of the first sacrifices of war. War is prosecuted with brutality as it should be. Let us put no misconceptions on it, no veneers of the graces of civilization. It is a brutal, and ugly thing. Yet, at the same time and quite ironically, it can be a time where our humanity shines at its brightest. |
Nakatre Read
Caldari
Stillwater Corporation |
Posted - 2008.09.10 14:16:00 - [ 3]
Edited by: Nakatre Read on 10/09/2008 14:17:55
So if I get this straight, you carried your sister aboard your shuttle through a warzone and actually stayed to watch the fight? With your sister aboard?
|
Diego Hernandez
Caldari
State War Academy |
Posted - 2008.09.10 14:21:00 - [ 4]
Edited by: Diego Hernandez on 10/09/2008 14:22:31 Quote:
Yesterday I joined Andreus Ixiris and Mixed Metaphor and will not stop until no State pilot ever has the capability to kill an innocent civilian again.
Looks like this will be a long war for you then... |
Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 14:45:00 - [ 5]
Edited by: Drethon on 10/09/2008 14:49:23 Originally by: Nakatre Read
Edited by: Nakatre Read on 10/09/2008 14:17:55
So if I get this straight, you carried your sister aboard your shuttle through a warzone and actually stayed to watch the fight? With your sister aboard?
My family has lived in the Federation for as long as we can remember. We did not ask for you to bring war to our home and we do not fleet our home in the face of threats. Camille was a scientist in our family's corporation that produces propulsion equipment for frigates. She had retrofitted this shuttle with sensors to analyze the performance of microwarp drives. I was holding station over 70 kilometers from the battle and she convinced me that they would not attack a neutral ship. My family's corporation sold as much equipment to Caldari buyers as they did Gallente buyers. We likely would have had enough advanced warning at that range but even though previous tests and simulations showed the new sensors integrated seamlessly with ship systems, the extra sensors and the confusion of battle interfered with the lock warning sensors in such a way the shuttle could not enter in time between the warning and the impact of the cruise missile. Perhaps we were too naive to believe that Caldari were only fighting military targets. Camille paid for this with here life, a lot more Caldari will pay the same price. Originally by: Diego Hernandez
Looks like this will be a long war for you then...
It matters not how long the war lasts, I will see it end or die trying. |
Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 14:46:00 - [ 6]
Originally by: Drethon
Yesterday I joined Andreus Ixiris and Mixed Metaphor and will not stop until no State pilot ever has the capability to kill an innocent civilian again.
So you would remove my corporation's (and others') ability to defend itself against pirates, terrorist, competitors, and oppressors? As to your actual loss, perhaps you should consider the possibility that those who attacked your shuttle are utilizing the Militia Act in order to continue their depraved acts of violence with fewer consequences than before when they prowled for easy targets. Perhaps the focus of your anger is misguided because these pirates masked themselves with the heraldry of the State. |
Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 14:47:00 - [ 7]
Edited by: Drethon on 10/09/2008 14:48:48
((ACK! Mispost...)) |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 15:01:00 - [ 8]
Why did you take your sister into a warzone on an unprotected ship, piloted by a belligerent in said war? |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 15:02:00 - [ 9]
Oh, and furthermore: why didn't you provide an escape module for your sister in case of emergency? |
Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 15:11:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Oh, and furthermore: why didn't you provide an escape module for your sister in case of emergency?
If I did not even have time to enter war in a shuttle do you think she had enough time to enter an escape pod which did not have the capacity to hold the equipment Camille was using for analysis? Yes we took a great risk but this does not excuse a Caldari Militia pilot's attack on a ship owned by a corporation that works with all four empires. |
Morgan Brykein
Gallente
Aliastra |
Posted - 2008.09.10 16:01:00 - [ 11]
I am incredibly sorry for your loss, Drethon. It's not the Caldari specifically, I once got fired on by a Gallente militia just because my ship was a Caldari design. It can take some heavy fire though, so I was able to get out of there.
War can suck at times. |
Musashibou Benkei
Combined Imperial Fleet
JIHADASQUAD |
Posted - 2008.09.10 16:51:00 - [ 12]
Trolling is not permitted on the forums. ~Saint |
Vaden Khale
Amarr
Damnation Angels
Naraka. |
Posted - 2008.09.10 17:58:00 - [ 13]
So no other Gallente will needlessly die because you'll be...what? Needlessly killing Caldari? Did you perhaps think that you would be mistaken as a scout for a larger force, or a simple reconnaissance of Caldari fleet structure and coherency? I am not surprised you were attacked. If you truly wished to harmlessly observe, might I suggest a covert ops ship. They can cloak. Maybe you've heard of it? It prevents ships from targeting you and destroying the idiot family members you keep on board. |
Darina Rea
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine |
Posted - 2008.09.10 18:33:00 - [ 14]
Edited by: Darina Rea on 10/09/2008 18:34:27
Sorry to hear about your sister, but like all the others stated the Caldari pilot isn't the only one to blame in this situation.
You are the pilot and should never have let your sister convinced you to go anywhere near that warzone. You know the risks, you are the one in the pod that will survive, she didn't.
Distance is also a funny thing, but 70 km far away? No, that's the optimal range of most battleships and well inside the range of most cruisers. A distance that can be called far away would be 300 km, or better yet 400 km.
So while defending your Federation would be admirable, putting all the blame on the Caldari pilot that fired on you isn't wholly fair as you did put yourself there to be fired upon. It sounds very harsh and mean, but that's the impression this action made. |
Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian |
Posted - 2008.09.10 19:00:00 - [ 15]
<Audio playback of Pilot Drethon's message can be heard. Veron Daerth shakes his head and considers his response.>
Pilot Drethon, I sympathize with your loss, I truly do. Family is one of the most precious things we have in this world.
But consider sir, you freely admit that you were in a civilian, unarmed vessel, in a combat zone. Not only that, but you were only 70km from an actual battle that was ongoing....
The Caldari pilot is not to blame. It is known and accepted that in the furor of combat and the "fog of war", that the innocent and unarmed are those that WILL suffer most. It is incumbent upon THEM to remove themselves from the combat zone, by any means necessary. The onus of "double checking" a target in combat is not only unreasonable under any circumstances, it is horrifically dangerous to the soldier. Any hesitation in combat can spell the death or destruction of those who hesitate... for ANY reason.
You sir, only have yourself to blame. This was no raid on your home, this was no sneak attack that you got caught up in. You freely admit that you APPROACHED a combat zone, and proceeded to "watch and record" the battle. This was... foolish. You, as the pilot made a terrible error of judgement and sadly, as is most often the case, your sister paid for it.
Weep for her, yes. Honor her memory, indeed. But blame the soldier that was fighting the battle? The battle you came to so very very unprepared? You might as well have doused yourself in fresh blood and then walked into a den of feral slaver hounds. You cannot blame them for attacking you.
You seem to be unfamiliar with how a battle goes or what a soldier see's in it. In battle, sir, there is no good or evil, and definitely no right or wrong. Those are for when its all over and you look back. In battle there is "us" and "them". And if you're not "us", you're "them". "Them" are the guys you kill, to prevent them from killing "us". Hesitation means death and failure, often not for yourself, but for your friends and comrades.
It is a sad thing, that she died. But it is not the fault of the man that pulled the trigger. He was doing his job. It was the fault of the man that put her in the position to be killed by the soldier, and that responsibility, sir, rests upon your shoulders alone. May God forgive you.
And sir, one last thing. War is not a spectator sport. It is not a game. It is not an experiment. It is not something you "monitor and record". It is something you FIGHT. You seem to have not understood that. In the future, I suggest you not go unarmed to a fight.
May God grant you wisdom, Pilots. |
Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 19:01:00 - [ 16]
Edited by: Drethon on 10/09/2008 19:13:15Edited by: Drethon on 10/09/2008 19:05:58 Originally by: Vaden Khale
So no other Gallente will needlessly die because you'll be...what? Needlessly killing Caldari? Did you perhaps think that you would be mistaken as a scout for a larger force, or a simple reconnaissance of Caldari fleet structure and coherency? I am not surprised you were attacked. If you truly wished to harmlessly observe, might I suggest a covert ops ship. They can cloak. Maybe you've heard of it? It prevents ships from targeting you and destroying the idiot family members you keep on board.
Using that logic, how many Sisters of Eve ships have you destroyed traveling through a war zone claiming to help the injured? They may be scouts too. Not to mention I don't know many scouts for a larger fleet that observer a battle in an unarmed ship when the ships engaged in combat are perfectly capable of this? If you are saying you would engage any neutral ships in high security space in the vicinity of a battle, you sound little better than a pirate yourself. Originally by: Darina Rea
Edited by: Darina Rea on 10/09/2008 18:34:27
Distance is also a funny thing, but 70 km far away? No, that's the optimal range of most battleships and well inside the range of most cruisers. A distance that can be called far away would be 300 km, or better yet 400 km.
Indeed, assuming the scanners she was operating could operate at distances greater than 75 km. Originally by: Veron Daerth
...
I would agree if this was true war. This is a concord sponsored corporate war. I was not the only neutral pilot flying through this space at the time as it is a heavily traveled route. It is not only the loss of my sister that drives me but the fact that no one considers the loss of a civilian to be important. Neither Concord or the State have put any effort into determining who murdered her. In military school I was taught that targeting and killing a civilian, as opposed to a civilian killed in a military building, was a war crime, not simply collateral damage. |
Inara Subaka
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2008.09.10 19:15:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Nakatre Read
So if I get this straight, you carried your sister aboard your shuttle through a warzone and actually stayed to watch the fight? With your sister aboard?
*Inara just shakes her head* I must agree with Pilot Read on this point, war is no place for family outings. Originally by: Vaden Khale
So no other Gallente will needlessly die because you'll be...what? Needlessly killing Caldari? Did you perhaps think that you would be mistaken as a scout for a larger force, or a simple reconnaissance of Caldari fleet structure and coherency? I am not surprised you were attacked. If you truly wished to harmlessly observe, might I suggest a covert ops ship. They can cloak. Maybe you've heard of it? It prevents ships from targeting you and destroying the idiot family members you keep on board.
And now Drethon, I must hate you... you have made me agree with Mr. Khale. That is not something I like to do outside of business. |
Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian |
Posted - 2008.09.10 19:44:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: Drethon
I would agree if this was true war. This is a concord sponsored corporate war. I was not the only neutral pilot flying through this space at the time as it is a heavily traveled route.
War is war, sir. To the dead, a Concord sponsored war is no different than any other. To those that fight it, a Concord sponsored war is exactly the same as any other. The rounds are real, the missiles are real, the ships are real and the deaths are real. Please enlighten me as to how the combat you witnessed was in any way "fake". Simply put, it wasnt fake. And you found that out. The hard way. It is sad, but it was inevitable. I am also willing to bet that you were not the only neutral or third party so engaged that night or on any other night. Rejoice, Pilot Drethon, you are not alone. I too, have been engaged by BOTH Gallente and Caldari ships in the Covryn system before, and at the same time. All I wanted to do was get through the damned gate. But I knew it was a warzone, and I came equipped accordingly. My battleship had the plating and capacity to get me through the warzone and through the gate. I didnt engage anyone back, simply sat out the attack and waited until the jump gate control system had cleared me for jump.((lag  )) Originally by: Drethon
It is not only the loss of my sister that drives me but the fact that no one considers the loss of a civilian to be important. Neither Concord or the State have put any effort into determining who murdered her. In military school I was taught that targeting and killing a civilian, as opposed to a civilian killed in a military building, was a war crime, not simply collateral damage.
Sadly, sir, the death of a single person isnt vital or important to the established nations. It is not noteworthy, it is not earth-shaking, it will not result in the destruction of the universe. Perhaps you should not ask "Why dont Concord and the State try to determine who killed her?" The answer to that is easy. It was a soldier, doing his job, fighting a war. The real question is "Why was she there in the first place?" Only you can answer that. And if the answer is insufficient or if the reason of her presence on the battlefield was not commensurate with the tragedy of her loss, then blame the person who put her there. Frankly, on a battlefield, in reality (as opposed to a classroom or a liberal bleeding heart parlor on a bright and sunny day) EVERYTHING is a military target, Everyone is a potential threat and if something or someone poses a threat to you or those you are responsible for, you DESTROY it. Those that dont ... LOSE. They lose men, they lose battles and eventually, they lose the war. "Collateral damage" is a silly phrase thought up by silly people to put a ribbon or cushion on the idea that in war, WE ALL ARE MEAT FOR THE GRINDER. As noted above (and by someone with experience in combat) there is no innocent or guilty, good or bad, right or wrong in active combat. You shoot things that you only half see, go where you think the enemy is located, try to out-think or outmaneuver him, and hope he doesnt kill you or your friends before you can kill him. I am sad for your loss, truly. But you now have experienced the real thing, seen the elephant. Welcome to the war. I hope you can stay alive. May the Light of God guide you, Pilots. |
Darina Rea
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine |
Posted - 2008.09.10 19:47:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Drethon
Using that logic, how many Sisters of Eve ships have you destroyed traveling through a war zone claiming to help the injured?
Because of this SoE ships are never flying without escort or scouts. Originally by: Drethon
Indeed, assuming the scanners she was operating could operate at distances greater than 75 km.
Even despite the fact that the Caldri pilot did the shooting I would still put the blame firmly on you, as you as pilot should have know that that range would never be enough in a warzone. Sadly, this militia war can't be called anything else then a full blow out war. The only wars that would be of a bigger scale would be the ones between the alliances in the outer regions or the few invasions of the empire navies not so long ago. Defend your home, but be sure you don't fall into the same hate mongering trap as all the others did before you. |
Vaden Khale
Amarr
Damnation Angels
Naraka. |
Posted - 2008.09.10 20:58:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: Drethon
If you are saying you would engage any neutral ships in high security space in the vicinity of a battle, you sound little better than a pirate yourself.
Vaden laughs and mock blushesPlease, don't compliment me so, it embarrasses me. Do a little research and you might realize that I am KOS in high sec. And yes, I engage neutrals all the time. Because I AM a pirate. Vaden turns away from his comm before adding one last commentAnd the world is much better without your idiot sister in it. A pity they couldn't permanently kill you as well. |
SOFcode Z777
Caldari
Human Enhancement Tech.
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 21:07:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Vaden Khale
And the world is much better without your idiot sister in it. A pity they couldn't permanently kill you as well.
With his new associations I'm sure that opportunities to rectify this matter won't be missed. SOFcode z777
CEO Human Enhancement Tech. H.E.T
Colonel Caldari State
Mordus Legion Loyalist |
Jeremy Erik
Gallente |
Posted - 2008.09.10 22:17:00 - [ 22]
I am considering sticking a knife into the electrical outlet. If it shocks me, I shall declare war upon the entire building.
I think he was just looking for an excuse or justification for his actions.
rolls his eyes and logs off |
Esna Pitoojee
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown |
Posted - 2008.09.11 01:47:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Vaden Khale
And the world is much better without your idiot sister in it. A pity they couldn't permanently kill you as well.
You, sir (and I use that term very lightly), seem to be out to personally insult every capsuleer in the galaxy. This man has just irreplacably lost a someone close to his heart - and you insult him? Pilot Drethon, I urge you to ignore Mr. Kahle... he is an embarrasment to Amarrians everywhere, and quite possibly to humanity as a whole. Your loss, which is indeed most saddening, can largely be attributed to the widespread use of capsuleers using falsified documentation to create alternate pilot's licences, then using these puppet-pilots to spy upon enemy fleets. A shuttle - unarmed, but extremely quick to warp - would seem to be an effective way to spy upon an enemy fleet; the nuetrality of your corperation may also have seemed suspicious. Hence, someone felt they could not take the risk and engaged your ship. A pity that loved ones' lives are lost for so trivial a reason. |
Stitcher
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.09.11 02:53:00 - [ 24]
Edited by: Stitcher on 11/09/2008 02:57:33
She would not have died at all if you had not put her in harm's way, Pilot Drethon. Her death is your fault alone.
You can either be a man about it and accept that fact, or you can be a coward and try to cravenly blame her demise on Caldari pilots who were just doing their duty.
You have my sincerest condolences, but don't try to blame your loss on honest pilots who were only doing their jobs. You're allowing your grief to become prejudice and the one thing the galaxy needs less of right now is prejudice.
Still, I'm glad it's Mixed Metaphor you're joining. I have a lot of respect for that corporation and its leaders. |
Vaden Khale
Amarr
Damnation Angels
Naraka. |
Posted - 2008.09.11 02:59:00 - [ 25]
His life and that of his sisters are of no consequence. They are unworthy to bear the mantle of being a capsuleer. I am not insulting, I am stating simple fact. |
Stitcher
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.09.11 03:08:00 - [ 26]
Nope, you're being insulting.
Facts, in my experience, can be objectively verified. If they are facts, people can't disagree with them
I (and man others) DO disagree with your so-called "facts"... which means they aren't facts at all. What you're actually stating is the usual diseased trickle of watery mental vomit that the shrivelled chunk of jerky you call a brain erroneously believes is an opinion.
|
Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
|
Posted - 2008.09.11 06:54:00 - [ 27]
Edited by: Vikarion on 11/09/2008 06:55:50
Mistakes you have made:
1. Letting you sister pilot a shuttle
Shuttles are uniquely designed for pod pilots. They have next to no shielding or armor, and are generally considered flimsy. Furthermore, according to regulations, non-pod pilots are supposed to refrain from piloting shuttles. It is the very knowledge that shuttles die like flies that keep them completely automated save for the pod. Even frigates have a longer life expectancy.
Furthermore, as every pod pilot knows (I hope), shuttles are the most used scout craft for pod pilots. Cheap, expendable, and fast, they serve the purpose wonderfully.
2. Parking in the middle of a warzone.
So you had to stick your sister's admittedly flimsy craft in the middle of a warzone...why? To analyze mircowarp drives? Couldn't you simply get a few friends to zip by her? Or was safety less important than convenience?
Surprising as it may be, munitions are actually exchanged in battle. Sometimes those munitions hit people who weren't there for the battle. Everyone knows this. You know this. In this era of FOF weapons, target jammers, dampeners, disruptors, and more, no one who is not fighting has any business being near a warzone. There are thousands of planets, asteroid belts, and stations in Gallente space, but you chose the one that a war was raging outside of.
Even if the situation was necessary, why could you not have stationed her inside of a large ship...say, yours? You know, one with adequate space for equipment, excellent protection (at least compared to a shuttle), and an undistracted pilot?
3. Assuming that the pilot was Caldari
Plenty of Gallente pilots use missiles. Amarr, Caldari, and Minmatar ship types have all been known to fire missiles, and Gallente pilots are not restricted to flying Gallente ships. You already stated that CONCORD could not identify the ship that fired the shot...so, although it is more likely that the attacker was Caldari, It may not have been. Furthermore, making a decision to attempt the destruction of the State based off of one pilot's actions is irrational.
You actions are similar to those of a person who, having been cheated by a plumber, decides that all construction workers are thieves and liars.
Your sister's death was a result of your - and her - gross negligence and rather foolish assumptions. You parked a scout ship outside of a station in the middle of a battle and are somehow amazed that harm befell it? And you did not even bother to care for the safety of the crew (your sister)?
And then you blame the Caldari? |
Vaden Khale
Amarr
Damnation Angels
Naraka. |
Posted - 2008.09.11 06:57:00 - [ 28]
Fact: A Gallente native watched a battle with Caldari militia members in an unarmed, scout type vessel.
Fact: He could not even conceive that a Gallente neutral watching a battle might be a spy, scout, or simply arriving to grab a combat ship and bring reinforcements.
Fact: He brought his own kin into a combat zone for research without having any means of protecting himself or his sister.
Fact: He could not even think when this combat started to leave because of the potential hazards.
Stitcher, these are all facts, stated by Drethon himself, though he may have tried to hide his own idiocy in this conflict. Now, granted, it is my opinion that he is unworthy of the mantle of capsuleer and that he is space dust to be wiped away and forgotten. But given the above facts, by blood, can you blame me? |
Inara Subaka
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2008.09.11 08:33:00 - [ 29]
*Inara is rubbing her temples as the channel opens*
And it appears that my associate and I are again on separate pages, and the universe is back in balance. Mr. Khale is a... well, let's just say that there are a lot of unpleasant things that many people could say about him. I question his sanity on a regular basis, that damn book of his has warped his sense of perspective on many issues.
That said, it is deplorable that you lost your family, a true tragedy, but an avoidable one, and one that by fact, and possibly by court of law (negligence resulting in someone else's death used to be a punishable offense, not sure now, I haven't been in the State in quite some time), holds you responsible for her demise.
I won't debate the merits of your right to be a Pilot, obviously they allowed you to pass and "plug-in". What I am going to debate is the fact that you are blaming a war for destroying something... that's what war does... when the fault is at your feet.
If you wish to join your sister though, I suggest flying in Federation lowsec in the Sing Laison region... I'm sure someone can assist you. Just make sure you haven't paid any medical facilities to hold a blank body for you anywhere. |
Nakatre Read
Caldari
Stillwater Corporation |
Posted - 2008.09.11 08:39:00 - [ 30]
Quote:
My family has lived in the Federation for as long as we can remember. We did not ask for you to bring war to our home and we do not fleet our home in the face of threats.
I know I shouldn't nitpick but I really, really wanna correct that small bit where you think that, even though I am Caldari, I'm also loyal to them. I've got nothing to do with this war, or operate even near it. Nor do I really care who dies but I just thought I should rub my eyes and make sure you really are a dumb Gallente like everyone else seems to have pointed out as well. |
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