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CCP Nozh


C C P
Posted - 2008.07.28 13:44:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: CCP Nozh on 28/07/2008 14:32:42
Use this thread to discuss changes and provide feedback on speed changes. You can read about the changes here.

Changes are live on SISI. QA tells me we'll probably be getting a new mirror this week.


Note: The thread will be heavily moderated, keep the feedback constructive.


EddieTheDog
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:03:00 - [2]
 

Will it only be 7.5km scrams that affect MWD's or will the 21km do the same? Thanks.

Helox
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:04:00 - [3]
 

Is it correct that the Rapid Deployment link only gives 25% to speed now? Wasn't there supposed to be a second bonus as well (inertia)?

Sceelax
The Scope
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:11:00 - [4]
 

Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives.
Before: 6.2k/s
After: 2.7k/s

*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*

WTS:
Domination 10mn MicroWarp Drive
3x Domination Overdrive

Send offers to me in game!

mynnna
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:13:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: mynnna on 28/07/2008 14:15:20
Edited by: mynnna on 28/07/2008 14:15:01
Just the first of what will no doubt be many issues with this.

Except for a minor bonus of being able to overheat a little longer (maybe?), there is no reason to use a T2 MicroWarpDrive over a T1 model. The speed bonus is the same, the reactivation delay is the same, etc. The only difference is T2 uses more cap and takes more to fit. Named MWD is exactly the same as T1 aside from fitting as well. For that matter, the only benefit faction has now is somewhat reduced cap use and a small reduction in reactivation delay.

What's the incentive to fit named/T2 MWDs now?

Originally by: Sceelax
Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives.
Before: 6.2k/s
After: 2.7k/s

*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*

WTS:
Domination 10mn MicroWarp Drive
3x Domination Overdrive

Send offers to me in game!


Over 50% reduction in speed. That's awfully heavy handed, CCP. You want to keep guerilla warfare viable? This isn't the way to do it. Wink I'll see what I can do for constructive alternatives after work.

Tomic
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:18:00 - [6]
 

I've been on and tested a few nano setups and the nerf is much harder than even the dev blog let on. We're seeing over 60% drops in speed, enough to kill hacs as a viable ship to use in pvp. I will post more detailed feedback once I have had a day or two to test the nerf some more.

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:24:00 - [7]
 

I think it's cool that ceptors with afterburner is now becoming a very viable choice. I am however concerned that they are a little too slow to speed tank cruiser sized weapons (They arent supposed to speed tank frigate weapons, I know.) Therefore I was kind of miffed out about the fact that 'Rogue' MY-1 who is now moved to slot 6 affects both AB and MWD (didnt realize this before). How about inventing a new 'Rouge' that goes in slot 7 that affect AB only and leave MY-1 in slot 6 affecting mwd only?

Current speed tests for the curious:
Vagabond = 3600
Stiletto (mwd) = 5300
Stiletto (ab) = 1800

Broegitte Bardot
BINFORD
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:31:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Helox
Is it correct that the Rapid Deployment link only gives 25% to speed now? Wasn't there supposed to be a second bonus as well (inertia)?
rapid deployment went from +3% to +2% speed _boost_ (iirc +25.88% total in a perfect claymore w/ mindlink)

the skirmish warfare skill (the plain gang skill) was switched from speed to agility

Rex Sacrorum
Gallente
S-44
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:33:00 - [9]
 

Reposting from the previous (now deleted) sticky.

Initially the MWD's (at least 10MN) seems messed up beyond comparison. T1 being better than T2 and Storyline probably best of all.

Also seems like the webifiers performances have been thrown about a little. Right now it seems like TS and Gal Navy are the best faction at 55%/15km and 60%/14km respectively. Also the pirate/empire navy versions doesn't mirror each other the way we are used to, (Caldari Navy and Dread Gurista modules usually have the same stats). Not sure it this was inteded or not.

CCP Nozh


C C P
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:34:00 - [10]
 

Seems like the MWD's got messed up somehow. The capacitor changes to them did not get moved over to SISI. Will be updated again today.


Helox
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:45:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Broegitte Bardot
Originally by: Helox
Is it correct that the Rapid Deployment link only gives 25% to speed now? Wasn't there supposed to be a second bonus as well (inertia)?
rapid deployment went from +3% to +2% speed _boost_ (iirc +25.88% total in a perfect claymore w/ mindlink)

the skirmish warfare skill (the plain gang skill) was switched from speed to agility


Sucks. But tnx.

Endless Subversion
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:53:00 - [12]
 

SISI nanofibers and inertia stabilizers act on an attribute called 'inertia modifier' while polycarbons and low friction rigs act on an attribute called 'agility'.

Is 'inertia modifier' stacking penalized with 'agility' ?

Tola
Arta Amicitia
Ships of the Line
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:55:00 - [13]
 

I've tested some Interceptor fittings, only fitted with T2 MWD, Nanofibers & Overdrives (Navigation V, Acceleration Control IV):

Taranis 2 Overdrives, 1 Nanofiber: 4632m/s (before 6052m/s)
Ares 3 Overdrives, 1 Nanofiber: 5111m/s (before 7125m/s)
Claw 3 Overdrives, 1 Nanofiber: 5322m/s (before 7420m/s)
Stiletto 2 Overdrives, 1 Nanofiber: 4733m/s (before 6182m/s)

This means that the difference in speed between the Interceptors decreases.
For example the Ares is only 500m/s faster than the Taranis, so it's only big advantage is the Warp Disruptor/Scrambler Bonus, while the Taranis is still doing much more dmg. Thus the Taranis is getting more versatile compared to the other Interceptors, especially compared to the Interceptors wich were only designed to be fast tacklers.

I think, as you decreased the bonus of the Overdrives/Nanofibers (=> an Interceptor gets less speed from his low-slots), you've to adjust the base speed of the Interceptors.

chao226
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.07.28 14:56:00 - [14]
 

I havent had a chance to log on to sisi yet in the process of copying my eve folder now.

from what i have read here and on the dev blog I do hav a suggestion the current nerf seams to be disigned mainly to reduce max speed of most ships with the warp scrambler being the only wepon added agisnt speed.

from the posts i have read the speed drop for some ships are massive.

I would suggest to still have a reduction on speed but not as extreme. but add more wepons to combat speed.

for expample. the 7.5kl scram now deactivates mwd. how about changeing this so that
20k scrams will reduce the speed bonus of an mwd from 500% to say 200%-300% and the 7.5k mwd reduce further to 100%-150% with t2 and faction you can still keep the extra max speed bouns parhaps tweaked a bit.

bubbles and diector bubbles could half effective ness of mwd.

thisd would mean that speed would not be as hard hit but other types of gangs would beable to combat them any thoughts?

AshtarDJ
Filthy Scum
Scum Alliance
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:10:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Sceelax
Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives.
Before: 6.2k/s
After: 2.7k/s

*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*

WTS:
Domination 10mn MicroWarp Drive
3x Domination Overdrive

Send offers to me in game!


2.7k is still dang fast considering that all other ships will have the same type of speed reduction and a non-nano cruiser with MWD will do 1.5k. Nano ships will still be the fastest ships in game, the only difference is that other then heavy webbs or other nanos, ppl will be able to hit you.

I love every bit of the patch. Well done CCP. Gangs now will be a bit more diversified again... (not only made of 5 types of HACs and 2 types of recons anymore)

Broegitte Bardot
BINFORD
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:18:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Endless Subversion
SISI nanofibers and inertia stabilizers act on an attribute called 'inertia modifier' while polycarbons and low friction rigs act on an attribute called 'agility'.

Is 'inertia modifier' stacking penalized with 'agility' ?
it should the same thing - does inertia mod (ship info - attributes) decrease properly with every module?

Euriti
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:18:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: AshtarDJ
Originally by: Sceelax
Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives.
Before: 6.2k/s
After: 2.7k/s

*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*

WTS:
Domination 10mn MicroWarp Drive
3x Domination Overdrive

Send offers to me in game!


2.7k is still dang fast considering that all other ships will have the same type of speed reduction and a non-nano cruiser with MWD will do 1.5k. Nano ships will still be the fastest ships in game, the only difference is that other then heavy webbs or other nanos, ppl will be able to hit you.

I love every bit of the patch. Well done CCP. Gangs now will be a bit more diversified again... (not only made of 5 types of HACs and 2 types of recons anymore)


That fit above requires billions of isk investment and it can't even speedtank properly.

BILLIONS of isk.

Sceelax
The Scope
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:21:00 - [18]
 

1.8B to be exact, with all the fittings and implants. I guess I'll be moving all those mods over to my arazu and invest in a Domi Scram.

Endless Subversion
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:32:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Broegitte Bardot
Originally by: Endless Subversion
SISI nanofibers and inertia stabilizers act on an attribute called 'inertia modifier' while polycarbons and low friction rigs act on an attribute called 'agility'.

Is 'inertia modifier' stacking penalized with 'agility' ?
it should the same thing - does inertia mod (ship info - attributes) decrease properly with every module?


I realize that the effect on the ship is the same for using agility or inertia. I ask because before a reduction is mass was the same as a reduction in inertia plus a speed bonus minus a stacking penalty. And it sounds like this is happening all over again with modules effecting 'agility' or 'inertia' when it's the same thing.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:47:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: AshtarDJ
Originally by: Sceelax
Just tried my ishtar with Snake set, 3% rogues, zor, domination MWD, domination overdrives.
Before: 6.2k/s
After: 2.7k/s

*gets obliterated by a ratting drake*

WTS:
Domination 10mn MicroWarp Drive
3x Domination Overdrive

Send offers to me in game!


2.7k is still dang fast considering that all other ships will have the same type of speed reduction and a non-nano cruiser with MWD will do 1.5k. Nano ships will still be the fastest ships in game, the only difference is that other then heavy webbs or other nanos, ppl will be able to hit you.

I love every bit of the patch. Well done CCP. Gangs now will be a bit more diversified again... (not only made of 5 types of HACs and 2 types of recons anymore)


That fit above requires billions of isk investment and it can't even speedtank properly.

BILLIONS of isk.


I can only figure the must be a mistake or just lack of proper testing. First, if you dump the domination gear, you'll save a ton of isk and get the same performance speed wise under the new rules. Not sure it 3% rogues are the top end now (didn't get a chance to check before test was taken down), if it isn't, then you can get more speed with the 5%, but lets assume it isn't. As far as speed tank, once you hit the 2km mark, you can speed tank all bs turrets (taking less than 5% dmg total - doesn't matter how fast you are, some shots just hit) and you take less than 10% dmg from heavy missles (non percesion). When you get up to 2.7km you are taking a lot less dmg. Yes, you aren't invulerable now, and this is definately the part where those "superior pilot and pvp skills" come into play, but you are taking about taking less than 8% damage from anything larger than a frig. That is the very definition of "tanking".

reivol
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:48:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: reivol on 28/07/2008 15:49:55
Originally by: Euriti


That fit above requires billions of isk investment and it can't even speedtank properly.




Ermmm quoted for correction : it can't even AVOID DAMAGE properly. <= that only is true

Because as said earlier, it WILL speedtank, and pretty well :
- against a drake with heavy missile, 2,7km/s is 71% damage reduction
- agains a drake with precision heavy missile, 2,7km/s is 54% damage reduction

So we can say that yes, it will speedtank, it will speedtank better than any armor or shield tank you can find ....

Sceelax
The Scope
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:57:00 - [22]
 

Update: I hadn't removed the Rogue CY and MY implants which now occupy the same slot as the snake omega.
New top speed: 2.5k

I am now going to test whether it is better to fit the CY, MY or Omega implant.

Kay Han
Caldari
Divine Retribution
Sons of Tangra
Posted - 2008.07.28 15:59:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Kay Han on 28/07/2008 15:59:14
awesome.. now we canīt even "tank" cruise missiles propperly in a vaga :/

Broegitte Bardot
BINFORD
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:01:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Endless Subversion
Originally by: Broegitte Bardot
Originally by: Endless Subversion
SISI nanofibers and inertia stabilizers act on an attribute called 'inertia modifier' while polycarbons and low friction rigs act on an attribute called 'agility'.

Is 'inertia modifier' stacking penalized with 'agility' ?
it should the same thing - does inertia mod (ship info - attributes) decrease properly with every module?
I realize that the effect on the ship is the same for using agility or inertia. I ask because before a reduction is mass was the same as a reduction in inertia plus a speed bonus minus a stacking penalty. And it sounds like this is happening all over again with modules effecting 'agility' or 'inertia' when it's the same thing.
not quite. the mass is there as its own attribute. it has influence on
a) align time (in s)= mass * inertia-mod / 10000 not sure how many digits
b) speed boost "modifier" = thrust / ship-mass-including-speed-boost-module-weight-blah

but there is just one entry in the database for agility/inertia, or rather... no extra one.

Alek Row
Minmatar
Silent Step
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:03:00 - [25]
 

Please, inform the people that is still posting in the dev blog thread that the discussion is now here.

Perma run MWDs that are able to do damage while MWDing will not suffer from the MWD re-activation delay, ships that have to pulse the MWD to be able to do some damage in an already very small time/space window will suffer from this change too much. The MWD re-activation delay is overkill.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:05:00 - [26]
 

one thing: skill change

I will petition (and not only me) to have skill points redistributed from skirmish warfare to other warfare skill. Sorry but when ships are balanced no problem - its only isk. But when you change stuff that takes time to acquire (and quite a lot too) then things start to get nasty.

here'n'there
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:05:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Kay Han
Edited by: Kay Han on 28/07/2008 15:59:14
awesome.. now we canīt even "tank" cruise missiles propperly in a vaga :/


dont confuse 'tank' with 'avoid'

Kay Han
Caldari
Divine Retribution
Sons of Tangra
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:07:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: here'n'there
Originally by: Kay Han
Edited by: Kay Han on 28/07/2008 15:59:14
awesome.. now we canīt even "tank" cruise missiles propperly in a vaga :/


dont confuse 'tank' with 'avoid'


Speedtanking is also a form of tanking. So the term "TANK" is absolutly fine for what iīve meant. ;)

Haakelen
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:09:00 - [29]
 

I cannot, no matter what I do, get into the test server. So, could someone who has and can fly a Blasterthron comment on what's going on with it, please?

Sceelax
The Scope
Posted - 2008.07.28 16:10:00 - [30]
 

News just in!!! Low-Grade Snake Omegas are now worthless!!!
All these implants take slot 6.

LG snake omega 2561m/s
rogue cy1 2562m/s
rogue cy2 2611m/s
rogue my1 2551m/s
rogue my2 2594m/s

Save your 350M on a Low Grade Snake Omega (even with the rest of the snake implants!) and buy a Rogue CY2 for 150M or a CY1 for 20M.

This was a public service announcement.


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