| Author |
Topic |
SickSeven
Simplistic Syndicate |
Posted - 2008.06.21 15:29:00 - [ 61]
I have a suggestion, why not give us small and medium webber drones? why is there only one webber drone? give us a fast webber drone!! |
SickSeven
Simplistic Syndicate |
Posted - 2008.06.21 15:51:00 - [ 62]
 Originally by: Italian Wedding
Speed needs a nerf apart from cepters and vaga's. There is no do or die commitment to fighting when you're nanoed and people who fit do or die tanks vs nano fittings die easily. Why should ships that aren't fit for committing to a fight easily outclass those that do fit for fight commitment? After all, wasn't that CCP's aim when nerfing WCS, making people commit to a fight if they are going to fight and not just easily get away if things turn bad? Speed has become the new WCS and now it needs to be toned down.
Quote:
100% agree. Right on!
|
Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2008.06.21 15:56:00 - [ 63]
Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 21/06/2008 15:57:04
I think most of the nanoing of HACs comes from the unfortunate fact that that is mainly what they do. Almost all of them are outclassed as far as non-speed capabilities by a much cheaper, insurable battlecruiser (or even battleship!), with few exceptions. Take out their speed, and HACs become what AFs are now. |
My Julutschka
Minmatar |
Posted - 2008.06.21 17:28:00 - [ 64]
the whole discussion is common in EVERY MMO out there. On the one hand you have the guys that play the broken class/fly the broken ship/have the broken item...on the other hand you have "the others"
Its in EVE where the nanoers tell everybody "LULZ there are so much counter you n00bs"..yep counters to get you away from us, but NOT to kill you
Same es in WoW when they cried "PALA IS IMBA" and the Palas replied "LUL n00bs..only takes 3 other chars to kill us..we are fine"
Think about it ! |
Borasatar |
Posted - 2008.06.21 17:58:00 - [ 65]
Edited by: Borasatar on 21/06/2008 17:57:49 Originally by: Jalif
Originally by: El Yatta
Nanos are excellent, allowing the skilled small gang to outmaneuvre a larger gang at the cost of DPS and HP. Doesnt need a change. There are a huge range of counters that are under-utilised by whiners.
What he said....
Is this like your girlfriend who lives in the Niagra Falls area... People say these "there are billions and billions of ways to stop nano gangs!" statements all the time. Mostly by people who fly nano ships in nano gangs trying to justify and protect their minimum risk way of playing the game. Let's list some of the "huge range of counters" to nano gangs, shall we? I'll start... 1. Minmatar Recons 2. Fly nano yourself 3. Be somewhere that the nanogang isn't 4. Don't log in 5. Cancel your account please add to the list |
Thong Gnome |
Posted - 2008.06.21 18:49:00 - [ 66]
Nano nerf is not far off. I'm sure this bandwagon will be vacant and left in the valley to rot... |
Darineah Charach
Minmatar
Resilience.
Northern Coalition. |
Posted - 2008.06.21 19:31:00 - [ 67]
The problem with nanogangs is that their ISN'T a reliable, viable counter that results in nanoship death. Regardless of what the naysayers say. Fact is, the vast majority fly them because they have to...which pretty plainly points out that the suggested counters don't work. If they did, nano wouldn't be such a hotly debated topic.
I miss variety. EvE used to be a place where you never really knew what the other guy was flying. Now with low sec a wasteland and 0.0 dominated by jump bridge networks enabling fast blobbing, the only viable roaming method is nano.
I actually find it quite ironic that this has happened, because it is completely anathema to the spirit of the game. |
Ulstan |
Posted - 2008.06.21 20:14:00 - [ 68]
'Everyone' flies nanos today for the same reason 'everyone' fitted WCS back in the day.
Nanos are the new WCS. Actually, they're better.
Nanos let you chase down people trying to flee, they give you a great tank as long as you can maintain your speed, and they let you bug out of fights you are losing.
WCS didn't let you chase anyone, if you filled your slots with WCS you had zero tank, but they did let you bug out of fights you were losing.
Still, given that nanos are just about the only way to escape blobs, I'd like to see a blob fix introduced at the same time we see a nano fix introduced.
About the only thing you could do immediately is to fix polycarbons to bring them back in line with all other rigs, and make them cheaper. |
Helen
White Noise. |
Posted - 2008.06.21 22:04:00 - [ 69]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
I would just like to have a nice big slow ship with a good tank that could web nanos at range.
Bhaalgorn? |
Italian Wedding
Soup Of The Day
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 00:21:00 - [ 70]
Originally by: Ikoras
Neuts > nano
Injector > Neuts |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp |
Posted - 2008.06.22 00:45:00 - [ 71]
Originally by: Borasatar
1. Minmatar Recons
2. Fly nano yourself
3. Be somewhere that the nanogang isn't
4. Don't log in
5. Cancel your account
6. Heavy Neuts 7. ECM 8. RR 9. Tracking 10. Lots of inties/frigs 11. Low transversal and sniper BS  |
Italian Wedding
Soup Of The Day
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 00:50:00 - [ 72]
Edited by: Italian Wedding on 22/06/2008 00:51:36 Originally by: AstroPhobic
6. Heavy Neuts
7. ECM
8. RR
9. Tracking
10. Lots of inties/frigs
11. Low transversal and sniper BS
6. Cap Injector > Neuts 7. ECM ships can't kill nano's (requires specialized GANG to kill one cruiser sized ship = bull****) 8. Remote Reps can't kill nano ships (requires specialized GANG to kill 1 cruiser sized ship = bull****) 9. Drones 10. Why should it take many ships to take down 1 cruise sized ship? 12. Lol @ nano pilot that gets low transversal to a sniper bs moving at <200m/s. Minmatar, should've known. Trying to protect your low risk high kill investment. |
JVol
Amarr
The IMorral MAjority
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 02:34:00 - [ 73]
Edited by: JVol on 22/06/2008 02:35:07 Originally by: Tankn00blicus
Edited by: Tankn00blicus on 21/06/2008 13:48:25
Originally by: JVol
1) make neuts and webs have more trainable skills. Skills to increase their range, their drain/web percentage. Sick of nanof*gs?? Then you spend a bit of time getting your t1 web/neut to hit 15-17km before you overheat it. THEN when the gents who scream, "FIT A WEB/NEUT if you wanna kill nannos" actually have something instead of the useless hollow advice they generally spout. What good is a neut or a web that only reaches 12-13km when they orbit you from 19km plus? Useless!! It would make a one v one's in BC sized ships and smaller viable again. At this time only heavy neuts are viable, that means CCP is saying you need a BS to counter a nano cruiser. unbalanced in any stretch of the imagination
Longer range web will kill the vaga, which technically doesn't speed tank, it buffer shield tanks, it cannot use its speed while engaging and even then doesn't do great dps. Its role is a hit-and-run ship and it shouldn't have game mechanics making that impossible to do so. However, the ships that hit-while-running like nano ishtars are abominations.
Let me get this straight. Your opposed to making the mod thats SUPPOSED to counter nannos effective enough to ACTUALLY counter them (by adding skills that extend their range) because it would allow you to catch the ONE cruiser ccp intended to be a speed tanker? Even if the tactic had been bastardizd to include any ship with enough lows to nanno? wow |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 02:39:00 - [ 74]
Originally by: JVol
Your opposed to making the mod thats SUPPOSED to counter nannos effective enough to ACTUALLY counter them (by adding skills that extend their range) because it would allow you to catch the ONE cruiser ccp intended to be a speed tanker? Even if the tactic had been bastardizd to include any ship with enough lows to nanno? wow
counter =/= render completely obsolete and unusable |
Parsival
Minmatar
The Avalon Foundation
The Drift. |
Posted - 2008.06.22 03:05:00 - [ 75]
Originally by: Italian Wedding
What so many don't understand is that there are 100+ man nano fleets that are common now. It isn't just about roaming with 3-4 people in nano gangs to get away from the blob anymore because nano blobs are becoming very common.
The problem there is the blob, not the nano. Its just fashionable to blame the nano. |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 03:38:00 - [ 76]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
counter =/= render completely obsolete and unusable
Ya know that if CCP ever releases the Rapier/Huginn they could web at 40km @90% and possibly much longer with faction webs, gang bonuses, and overloading? Oh the humanity! Oh wait. We've got 2x ships dedicated to webbing and that hasn't broken the nano fad. In fact the two ships dedicated to webbing are mostly nano'd themselves. If webs had a longer range then they'd be more effective and a realistic counter. Possibly offer a web or script that allows 10km @90% webbing or 24km @30% webbing. It wouldn't break the game. Currently everyone fits a point. Force folks to decide between scramming the target and webbing. Of course this is bad news for a vaga as if it wants to nano, scram, and web it must sacrifice its buffer tank. This would bring at least *some* variation in nano fittings. Until CCP does something everyone should be flying nanos. No excuse. Don't whine that you can't catch them or kill them. The only reasonable course of action is to fly one yourself. |
Apoctasy
Lethal Injection.
Hedonistic Imperative |
Posted - 2008.06.22 03:46:00 - [ 77]
Stasis webifier
'Nuff said. |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 03:50:00 - [ 78]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
counter =/= render completely obsolete and unusable
Ya know that if CCP ever releases the Rapier/Huginn they could web at 40km @90% and possibly much longer with faction webs, gang bonuses, and overloading? Oh the humanity!
Oh wait. We've got 2x ships dedicated to webbing and that hasn't broken the nano fad. In fact the two ships dedicated to webbing are mostly nano'd themselves.
Is this related to what I wrote in some way or am I missing something here? Because you simply must be being dense on purpose if you're bringing up the existence of Minmatar recons in support of a proposal that would effectively render them obsolete by giving every single ship in the game similar abilities. |
Parsival
Minmatar
The Avalon Foundation
The Drift. |
Posted - 2008.06.22 04:17:00 - [ 79]
Edited by: Parsival on 22/06/2008 05:26:23
The single most frustrating thing about fighting nano ships is the way they can jump through a gate, decide they don't like the odds and then MWD back to the gate and jump and you pretty much can't do anything to them. They really need to increase the decloak range off gates so that jumping through a gate really does commit you to either fighting the camp or genuinely running for safety in-system.
Other than that, nano is fine.
(Edit for typo)
|
TZeer
BURN EDEN |
Posted - 2008.06.22 04:39:00 - [ 80]
I remember the time when you wanted to go fast, you actually had to fly frigs/ceptors...
Now it`s cruisers sized nano ships that are the fast movers.
Something is wrong when cruisersized ships are moving faster then many of the average ceptor pilots.
And the counters I have heard so far is...
Neutralizer you noob - Only an option if you are in a BS, and BS do not have the speed or the agility to catch that nanoship.
Fit web - What difference does it make when the scramrange on T2 disruptor is 24km?
Hugin, rapier - So you need a specialised ship to counter a "flavour of the year" setup?
|
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 05:16:00 - [ 81]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
effectively render them obsolete by giving every single ship in the game similar abilities.
Not similiar abilities. Currently Huginn/Rapiers have a very unique ability that makes them very valuable in fleets. There aren't other t1 options that compare. I'd like to see something in between the mostly useless webs we have now and a t2 fitted Minm Recon. Not every single ship would have similiar abilities. A Lachesis or Arazu has bonuses to points for range and still everyone fits points. Which ship has a free mid slot for a web? Not everyone would fly with a web. Folks would be forced to decide between tank, speed, points, and web. What I'm asking for is a viable t1 webbing solution. |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 05:17:00 - [ 82]
Originally by: TZeer
Something is wrong when cruisersized ships are moving faster then many of the average ceptor pilots.
You're being misleading on purpose. Given the same type of fitting, same level of gear, same rigs, same implants, same gang bonuses, etc. ... even the slowest interceptor (the Raptor) will always be faster than any cruiser sized ship in the game. It's like saying that carriers are faster than interceptors because if you speed fit and really super pimp it out you can get a carrier to go faster than an afterburning, armor tanked Taranis. |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 05:35:00 - [ 83]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
effectively render them obsolete by giving every single ship in the game similar abilities.
Not similiar abilities. Currently Huginn/Rapiers have a very unique ability that makes them very valuable in fleets. There aren't other t1 options that compare. I'd like to see something in between the mostly useless webs we have now and a t2 fitted Minm Recon.
Hyena. Beyond that, asking for regular webs to reach out to warp disruption range = Minmatar recons and speed fitted ships completely obsolete and useless. Quote:
Not every single ship would have similiar abilities. A Lachesis or Arazu has bonuses to points for range and still everyone fits points.
Their main use is in electronic warfare with their damps, or at east should be before those were killed because of forum whiners. Now, they're near useless. But anyway... Their range advantage over regular warp disruptors is similar to the range advantage of the Minmatar recons over regular webs. And most people fit warp disruptors, and most people fits webs (unless they are a fast ship planning to fight outside of web range). That's because they're balanced (in that repect). Both of them. It should stay that way. Quote:
Which ship has a free mid slot for a web?
Most ships I fly have a web. Quote:
Not everyone would fly with a web. Folks would be forced to decide between tank, speed, points, and web.
What I'm asking for is a viable t1 webbing solution.
They are perfectly viable and balanced. If you let them web out to 20-24 km on regular ships you make most speed fitted ships obsolete and grant the main role for Minmatar recons to every ship in the game. I know they web at far longer ranges, but their main use against fast ships is within that range beacuse that's the range most ships will fight in (except for major fleet combat with snipers). |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
|
Posted - 2008.06.22 06:08:00 - [ 84]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Hyena.
T2 Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Beyond that, asking for regular webs to reach out to warp disruption range = Minmatar recons and speed fitted ships completely obsolete and useless.
Scripts. Scripts that work like scrams/disrupters. Scripts that trade range for effectiveness. Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Their main use is in electronic warfare with their target painters, or at east should be before those were killed because of forum whiners. Now, they're near useless. But anyway...
Fixed. Gallente Recons are there mostly for points. Minm Recons for webbing. Everyone fits points. Minm Recons are must have ships in many fleets. Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Most ships I fly have a web.
And you've likely traded tank, another point, a cap recharger, something for that web. Webs do not have the utility of points currently. Originally by: Reem Fairchild
If you let them web out to 20-24 km on regular ships you make most speed fitted ships obsolete and grant the main role for Minmatar recons to every ship in the game. I know they web at far longer ranges, but their main use against fast ships is within that range
Minm recons try and web outside of scram range. They try and web at 30-35km if they know someone else has a point. I've lost a few Rapiers getting too close because I didn't trust that someone had a point. Minm recons can web at considerable range and effectiveness. I'm asking for a solution which trades range for effectiveness. This leaves a need for Minm recons. A long range web doesn't make nanos obsolete. If two nanos meet the one with the web can control the range. If both have webs and similiar skills then they can dart in, web the other, and hopefully get out of range before they're webbed. There are tactics around this currently. A long range web would force nanos to commit. It would be even better if the effectiveness of webs also was based on the sig radius. So a cruiser with mwd would be more affected than a ceptor with a ab. |
TZeer
BURN EDEN |
Posted - 2008.06.22 06:33:00 - [ 85]
Edited by: TZeer on 22/06/2008 06:57:19 Quote:
You're being misleading on purpose. Given the same type of fitting, same level of gear, same rigs, same implants, same gang bonuses, etc. ... even the slowest interceptor (the Raptor) will always be faster than any cruiser sized ship in the game.
That might be, but the problem is that bonuses from commandships are not stackingnerfed like other stats. Also at that time, we didnt have rigs, implants and gangbonuses... Take away that and the average nanocruiser have the speed of a interceptor pre gangbonuses, implants and rigs... Not sure you know, but the EW gang module is stacking nerfed regarding jammingstrength against modules fitted on your ship. Speed module is not.... Another thing, one of the points from the nano people is: Quote:
It`s expensive to fit, expensive to loose, so it`s okay
This is almsot like before the damp nerf. Many people used it, but nowhere near as many as nano. Also there people mentioned alot of counters... FOF`s, Drones, Sensorboosters, fast locking damp/jam ship yourself, speed to get on top of it etc. Did they get nerfed? Oh yeah! Will speed get nerfed, hmm, yeah, I think so. |
Thirzarr |
Posted - 2008.06.22 08:14:00 - [ 86]
Am I the only one who is thinking:
"Its not that nano's are too fast - everything else just is too slow."
Honestly... I'm close to crying when seeing the "speed" of battleships in the official EvE-Trailers. *sob* ZOOOOM! EvE could really use a nice little "speedup". imho. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2008.06.22 09:04:00 - [ 87]
Because nanoing allows you to choose your fights. You will either run into targets you can kill, and do. Or targets that you cannot, and you'll leave.
A tank/gank setup, the number of fights you can win increases, but when you run into one you'll lose, you're down a ship, where a nanoship would have already burned out of range and warped.
This is a direct result of increasing gang sizes - where an opponent brings 50 ships to your 10, then the only thing that is going to survive is something fast, and they _might_ even get a few kills on stragglers.
I don't mind the concept overly, but I think the numbers have suffered a bit too much inflation over successive patches. I also think precision heavy missiles are just not good enough on explosion velocity, and actually if they were a _bit_ better, the whole thing wouldn't be nearly as much a problem as it is. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction |
Posted - 2008.06.22 09:04:00 - [ 88]
|
TZeer
BURN EDEN |
Posted - 2008.06.22 09:11:00 - [ 89]
Another thing, the insane speeds you get nowdays combined with the nerf on sensorbooster makes ranged combat a thing of the past...
By the time you get a lock, it`s already on top of you... Or if you get a lock on it, it`s already either so close that the guns cant track or so high speed that missiles dont do any damage...
And if you kill it, theres now a wreck for hostiles to warp to...
And yeah, rapier or huginn does good, but when there are multiple nanostuff incomming it`s only so much a huginn/rapier can do before it either must get out or gets popped...
|
Tenuo
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2008.06.22 09:34:00 - [ 90]
Originally by: TZeer
Another thing, the insane speeds you get nowdays combined with the nerf on sensorbooster makes ranged combat a thing of the past...
By the time you get a lock, it`s already on top of you... Or if you get a lock on it, it`s already either so close that the guns cant track or so high speed that missiles dont do any damage...
And if you kill it, theres now a wreck for hostiles to warp to...
And yeah, rapier or huginn does good, but when there are multiple nanostuff incomming it`s only so much a huginn/rapier can do before it either must get out or gets popped...
If they want to spend thier time zipping in and out of lock range why dont you just ALIGN and WARP OUT? |
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