| Author |
Topic |
GM Krymus
 |
Posted - 2008.04.08 16:13:00 - [ 31]
 Originally by: Xaen
I'll take things like this seriously when the ISK channel and EVEMail spam cease.
There's no reason CCP can't stop it entirely with a mere bayesian filter on chat and EVE mail, but they seem to think it's too hard, so don't even try.
If Google can do it for all of Gmail without perceivable slowdown of mail delivery, surely CCP can do it for a tiny fraction of the number of accounts and messages that comprises TQ.
I'm tired of the excuses. Reporting sellers is a waste of my time, they'll be back on a new account in less time than it takes me to report them.
I completely understand your concerns with regards to this. You may or may not have noticed the dramatic reduction in spam since the deployment of Trinity 1.1, in which a large number of features (as mentioned in the dev blog) were introduced. I agree that if any spam is able to get through (which, unfortunately, some still does) then there is room for improvement. Please be assured that we will continue to work on developing tools to prevent spam from reaching players. |
GM Faolchu
Game Masters |
Posted - 2008.04.08 16:18:00 - [ 32]
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert
Perhaps if CCP would provide us with some proof that they were addressing the ISK sales and macro problems in EVE, we could give you more credibility on this matter?
IE, how much ISK have you appropriated, how many accts have you banned. Just give us some concrete examples to show us that you are aware of the problem, have a plan to deal with it, have taken stops to deal with, and have measurable progress.
While there has been some discussion to make such numbers and details of action taken public it is against our normal policy. We approach the matter silently and fight it as hard as we are allowed and hopefully that makes a difference. We GM's always keep an eye on this particular part of EvE and we appreciate any input you players have to give us. |
Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2008.04.08 16:30:00 - [ 33]
Originally by: GM Krymus
Originally by: Xaen
I'll take things like this seriously when the ISK channel and EVEMail spam cease.
There's no reason CCP can't stop it entirely with a mere bayesian filter on chat and EVE mail, but they seem to think it's too hard, so don't even try.
If Google can do it for all of Gmail without perceivable slowdown of mail delivery, surely CCP can do it for a tiny fraction of the number of accounts and messages that comprises TQ.
I'm tired of the excuses. Reporting sellers is a waste of my time, they'll be back on a new account in less time than it takes me to report them.
I completely understand your concerns with regards to this. You may or may not have noticed the dramatic reduction in spam since the deployment of Trinity 1.1, in which a large number of features (as mentioned in the dev blog) were introduced. I agree that if any spam is able to get through (which, unfortunately, some still does) then there is room for improvement. Please be assured that we will continue to work on developing tools to prevent spam from reaching players.
I haven't noticed a difference. My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone? And Xaen still gets 2-3 evemail spams a week, same as before. Most of what I see is so obviously ISK spam that any halfassed bayesian filter would nail it in a heartbeat. But you're not using one. Without giving away circumvention techniques, is there any way to describe what was actually done? I hope it wasn't some stopgap measure like banning accounts. That's like trying to fight a flood with a stick. |
Illusori |
Posted - 2008.04.08 16:56:00 - [ 34]
Originally by: GM Guard
Anyone who feels we have removed his ISK without reason is urged to file a petition so we can look into the matter. All petitions are looked into and replied to.
I'll pass that on to the person I know who is affected, however I believe he has had no response to any petitions in the past two weeks. Thanks for your quick reply to my post though. :) Originally by: GM Krymus
Please be assured that we will continue to work on developing tools to prevent spam from reaching players.
Any chance we could have one-click "report as spam" buttons on mails and in the right-click context-menu for chat? One that'll file a spam report with the content of the relevent message and any other information you need to take action? Making it easier for us to report, and then for you to act on, than it is for the spammers to continue spamming is always good - the feeling that we as players are having to expend more effort than the spammers discourages people from feeling that there's any point in trying to help. |
Galen Salkor |
Posted - 2008.04.08 17:05:00 - [ 35]
So the purchasing of characters for real money doesn't fall under the topic of this devblog? |
GM Faolchu
Game Masters |
Posted - 2008.04.08 17:47:00 - [ 36]
Originally by: Xaen
My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?
I'll be spending the rest of my shift sitting in this channel, so far I haven't see anything but I'll keep an eye out. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE |
Posted - 2008.04.08 18:08:00 - [ 37]
Originally by: GM Guard
Edited by: GM Guard on 08/04/2008 16:06:36
Originally by: Illusori
Quote:
...wallets will simply be put in the negative, making any form of market activity impossible, as well as preventing any actions that require ISK to be spent such as new clones or buying ship insurance.
Whilst this all sounds very good, what manner of appeals process is there for if someone has had this done to them and recieves no replies to petitions or attempts to find out why it has been done?
It's all well and good to wave a big stick, but if you clobber someone who you shouldn't have, there needs to be a clearly advertised means to appeal the decision, and handled in a timely manner if you're basically making the game unplayable for them!
That's a good question actually.
Anyone who feels we have removed his ISK without reason is urged to file a petition so we can look into the matter. All petitions are looked into and replied to.
Please note that intentionally unverifiable explanations will not result in us returning ISK, whereas true stories are usually easy to verify in our experience. In other words, please file a petition if you truly received the ISK legitimately but don't bother if you bought it. There are penalties for filing intentionally false petitions and if your ISK came from an ISK seller there is no chance of misleading us into returning it.
I have heard a few tales of people selling stuff and then getting the transaction reversed. I of course cannot confirm how the isk was acquired, or if they are just making it up. for example one guy said that he sold a rattlesnake on contracts and then a while later had the isk removed from his wallet. which to me sounds very unfair even if it was to an isk seller or buyer. Or he was just making in up in which case I suggest throwing stuff at him  Now I enjoy large isk transfers in the form of ransom. what happens when I ransom an isk buyer or seller? (note that I wouldn't ransom obvious farmers, like the 1000's of lowsec macro haulers, not that they would probably even respond to a ransom). Or take payment from a corp for system access? |
SillyWaif
Galactic Kingdom |
Posted - 2008.04.08 18:08:00 - [ 38]
Originally by: Xaen
My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?
And Xaen still gets 2-3 evemail spams a week, same as before.
Maybe it's not an option you (want to) use: I have set my CSPA charge to 1 Mil ISK and after that the number spam mails have greatly reduced. I rarely get them these days, luckily. Intention was 'to make them pay'  |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE |
Posted - 2008.04.08 18:09:00 - [ 39]
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Originally by: Xaen
My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?
I'll be spending the rest of my shift sitting in this channel, so far I haven't see anything but I'll keep an eye out.
i would assume you can cover all rookie chats? |
Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore |
Posted - 2008.04.08 18:37:00 - [ 40]
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert
Perhaps if CCP would provide us with some proof that they were addressing the ISK sales and macro problems in EVE, we could give you more credibility on this matter?
IE, how much ISK have you appropriated, how many accts have you banned. Just give us some concrete examples to show us that you are aware of the problem, have a plan to deal with it, have taken stops to deal with, and have measurable progress.
Check the IGE website.  |
Hamfast
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 18:51:00 - [ 41]
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert
Perhaps if CCP would provide us with some proof that they were addressing the ISK sales and macro problems in EVE, we could give you more credibility on this matter?
IE, how much ISK have you appropriated, how many accts have you banned. Just give us some concrete examples to show us that you are aware of the problem, have a plan to deal with it, have taken stops to deal with, and have measurable progress.
While there has been some discussion to make such numbers and details of action taken public it is against our normal policy. We approach the matter silently and fight it as hard as we are allowed and hopefully that makes a difference.
We GM's always keep an eye on this particular part of EvE and we appreciate any input you players have to give us.
GM Faolchu, I realize that releasing the names of the banned or busted is not an option, but it would seem the numbers would not carry with it the stigma... I also understand that the numbers, like 72.6% of all statistics, could be made up on the spot, thus many will question the validity of the numbers... An every so often report (Monthly perhaps) that stated that X billion ISK removed from the game, Y accounts banned, Z Accounts warned... It could also have the additional entry for ISK returned and Accounts reinstated (showing a willingness to admit mistakes are made)... And think, you have the perfect forum for the post (sticky post)... the Crime and Punishment forum. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 18:55:00 - [ 42]
Originally by: Tarminic
Check the IGE website.
Wahahaaaaa "currently unavailable" on anything EVE-related. Hooray \o/ |
Alz Shado
EverFlow
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 19:48:00 - [ 43]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Tarminic
Check the IGE website.
Wahahaaaaa "currently unavailable" on anything EVE-related. Hooray \o/
Le Sigh. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 19:49:00 - [ 44]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 08/04/2008 19:50:36 Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Tarminic
Check the IGE website.
Wahahaaaaa "currently unavailable" on anything EVE-related. Hooray \o/
I'm making a note here "and we remove tens of billions of illegally purchased ISK every day" do people really buy this much isk every day? that is like what... 5000$?? people playing eve are losing 5000$ a day? wth? who are these players and why aren't they spaming our forums with wahh I got caught. you sure it's not like 3 billion or less? epic linkagegood job CCP. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 20:17:00 - [ 45]
Semi-epic thread : Why ISK-for-secure-GTC is goodNo, it doesn't discuss the devblog directly, even if it sort of started that way. I urge you to let it open, and this here is just provided as a reference thread. |
Dr Felonius
Caldari
Civilian Purposes Limited |
Posted - 2008.04.08 20:35:00 - [ 46]
Do you folks at CCP have any plans to improve the market for time cards? It seems like having some in-game market for time cards would be much more flexible (and thus drive prices lower) than relying on forum posts.
|
Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2008.04.08 20:45:00 - [ 47]
Originally by: GM Faolchu
Originally by: Xaen
My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?
I'll be spending the rest of my shift sitting in this channel, so far I haven't see anything but I'll keep an eye out.
I could just send you the log snippets. Sadly, I think little ole grep is capable of finding most of the ISK ads. |
Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 22:35:00 - [ 48]
Edited by: Ben Derindar on 08/04/2008 22:51:31 Originally by: GM Faolchu
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert
Perhaps if CCP would provide us with some proof that they were addressing the ISK sales and macro problems in EVE, we could give you more credibility on this matter?
IE, how much ISK have you appropriated, how many accts have you banned. Just give us some concrete examples to show us that you are aware of the problem, have a plan to deal with it, have taken stops to deal with, and have measurable progress.
While there has been some discussion to make such numbers and details of action taken public it is against our normal policy. We approach the matter silently and fight it as hard as we are allowed and hopefully that makes a difference.
We GM's always keep an eye on this particular part of EvE and we appreciate any input you players have to give us.
I have to say I do find it odd that CCP would encourage players to inform each other on the correct processes for transacting isk, while at the same time their own policy is not to divulge information to players that would be invaluable for this very task. I'd love to be able to warn people that they will face the consequences for buying isk illegally like X others did this week/month/whatever, but without that X, how much weight would such warnings really carry? Certainly it's great that numbers have been divulged in this blog; now let's see it continue on a regular basis. From the players' perspective, silent action = inaction. How are we supposed to know the difference otherwise? I would have thought that CCP would be only too happy to capitalise on this clear and regular opportunity for some positive PR, especially with all the issues the game has faced in the last 18 months. If it's a question of privacy, then I have to say I take issue with that on a personal level as a CSM candidate. People who break the rules have all the details of their infraction suppressed, while someone looking to make a positive difference for the game is to expect their RL details to be revealed? Where is the consistency? How about this for a policy: you break the rules, you forfeit your right to privacy under those same rules, at least if it can be proven that the rules were broken knowingly. /Ben |
Wai Ling
Path Finders |
Posted - 2008.04.08 22:40:00 - [ 49]
This is regarding to some good ideas that WoW may have (ONLY good thing) Blizzard currently has a program named "Warden". Warden is simply a program that presses ban and wtfpwnts hackers and macroers. However, there is more to Warden than the banning spree. Warden is hooked to a backdoor that is downloaded on all computers that has games of Blizzard downloaded. This backdoor transfers a list of all processes that the computer of the user is currently running as well as those simple scripts. It is then up to a human watcher to make the decision whether or not to blacklist a process. It may not be the most effective way to prevent Farmers but it is simply a horsefly that slowly eats away at their economy. Backdoors may be illegal but you've agreed to have it on your computer in the EULA  This is my 2 cents |
Lobster Man
Pigs On Teh Wing |
Posted - 2008.04.08 23:13:00 - [ 50]
As an avid anti-farmer player, I do enjoy sitting in ingunn and popping the hundreds of haulers that come out of the republic justice department hourly. There was a period where it appeared that many, many accounts had been banned, but the farmer hauler spam has been on a steady increase since february. I too would very much like to see at least numbers of banned accounts or something, even if it was made up it would mean that all my hours spent looting shuttle wrecks was not entirely in vain  Another thing which I have thought of, perhaps it is rather subversive, but farmers are the only other eve players against who I show no mercy. I imagine it'd be fairly easy to identify accounts of farmers running hauling missions 23/7, not only by their obvious names, but by the fact they do not chat or do anything except run missions. Perhaps CCP has the ability to do some modifications to per-player mission settings, such as reducing the LP a farmer receives from his agent by say 95% :) This would not only make the farmers constantly wary in a less-overt way than being banned, it might help to curtail some of the implant spammage that has brought +4 implants down to around 14m in jita. Just my 2 cents at least...I hope this post even gets read by a GM/Dev  |
Typhado3
Minmatar |
Posted - 2008.04.08 23:17:00 - [ 51]
This is one thing I think ccp is doing good in.... though i would like to see them have more powers and tools for getting the spammers.
Stuff like word filters through chat to catch the isk selling websites (yes I know what tiny url is) and then apply a mute to that char so no one has to hear them spam....
don't know what powers isd have, I believe they can't ban characters but if u gave em something like a mute ability on players which could only be taken off by a stuck petition would help stem the tide.
some ppl may think powers like these are bad cause of free speach/privacy on word filters and misuse on second one but I think they'd be great.
2 Things i didn't see the in this dev blog that I think are important though.
Encouraging players to petition isk sellers.
The big difference between isk sellers and GTC trade is u can't make rl money out of GTC trade (u can save money but not make it).
I see a lot of these spammers when i sit in the help channel and am getting tired of petitioning them which I do half the time. The other half I just block them figuring that there are already another 5 petitions on the way about that 1 guy.... one thing I've heard though is that when we remove players from our block list they get added to buddy list..... not very fun searching through buddy list for isk spammers and our block lists tend to run out quickly.
Still gotta laugh eacch time I see spammers saying "buy eve GOLD"...... go back to wow =p |
Typhado3
Minmatar |
Posted - 2008.04.08 23:27:00 - [ 52]
Edited by: Typhado3 on 08/04/2008 23:40:50
double post....
damn flux capacitor |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 23:29:00 - [ 53]
Originally by: GM Faolchu
While there has been some discussion to make such numbers and details of action taken public it is against our normal policy.
We approach the matter silently and fight it as hard as we are allowed and hopefully that makes a difference.
Perhaps a change in policy is needed then. From the general population's standpoint, a "silent fight" is NO fight at all. I see absolutely no harm in reselasing purely statistical data on a regular basis. Like, say, a weekly report with banned account number, total ISK removed from the economy from banned accounts, number of accounts warning-flagged and total ISK removed from wallets of non-banned accounts. Four numbers, once a week. Or once a month. |
Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2008.04.09 00:02:00 - [ 54]
Any chance of someone expanding on this, I simply doesn't understand the (implied) economic argument behind it: Quote:
Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.
|
Reptzo
Channel 4 News Team
Veritas Immortalis |
Posted - 2008.04.09 00:30:00 - [ 55]
Edited by: Reptzo on 09/04/2008 00:31:16 Originally by: Blazde
Any chance of someone expanding on this, I simply doesn't understand the (implied) economic argument behind it:
Quote:
Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.
In other words, $5000 will buy and outfit a titan (via buying isk from websites). Some people really have this kind of cash to throw around on a game. That same amount of dollars will buy you significantly less via GTC (less than half the isk amount due to recent GTC value crash). The other problem being that you cant just buy 1000 GTCs and sell them instantly. There has to be people wanting to buy them, and it will take quite a while. So yes it can still be done, and yes there are plenty of people with the real life means to buy 1000 GTCs. It is simply a lot harder for them to turn real $$$ into game money via GTC, as apposed to buying it from farmers. And, the buying of GTCs has a similar but different effect on the economy, it still enables those with real cash, but increases subscriptions. And there are many good threads about the effects and differences so I'm not going to delve into that argument. |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
|
Posted - 2008.04.09 00:38:00 - [ 56]
Quote:
We know that most players out there dislike the macroers, ISK spammers, complex farmers and other RMT spawn just like we do and we ask for your assistance in dealing with them. Tell your friends that buying ISK is against the EULA if the subject is raised. Tell them about the Secure ETC Trading System. Help us raise awareness about this whole issue and together we can change the world of EVE for the better!
While you're at it players, do our bug reporting and documentation too and leave the ship balancing to us! ^_________________________^ |
A Sinner
Muppet Factory |
Posted - 2008.04.09 00:42:00 - [ 57]
Very good dev blog, though I don't think it will stop the people selling isk for real life money.
Anyway since everyone is talking about gtcs, I thought i should tell you my problem. I used to pay my subscription via credit card, and that doesn't work anymore, I filed several petitions and got answers like : "From our side it looks like there is a problem at your bank." I called the bank and said everything is fine, and I got same replay from the person that answered my petition and he said same thing, that the bank is the problem. Now I don't know who's fault it is, so I got tired of petitioning and asked to be closed. Therefore I decided to use my only GTC reseller in my country, which is , www.computergames.ro . They only have 30 day gtc there at the price of 15 EURO (not $ , EURO). Now a friend of mine is paying 71.70$ for a 6 month subscription with his credit card.
So I am paying for the same ammount of time 90 EURO , which means 141.3$ , double the price my friend is paying. So forgive me if I am asking you, but is that fair to me and to the other 5 or 6 people I know that have problmes with their credit cards ? |
Floresa |
Posted - 2008.04.09 01:11:00 - [ 58]
A couple thoughts:
First, to everyone complaining about various forms of spam - you really need to cut CCP some slack. You see, when it comes to blocking spam, end-users will only ever see what gets through, as opposed to what's getting blocked. So CCP could very well be (and probably is) stopping 99.9% of the spam before you see it - but there's so much of it, that the 0.1% that does make it though still feels like "a lot". We really must be understanding that, and generally how difficult this problem is to solve.
Second, to everyone who is demanding that ISK buyers get warned/banned/shot, I think you're overlooking a key problem with that. The minute CCP starts taking any sort of permanent action against ISK buyers is the minute people start receiving "gifts" of purchased ISK from people that don't like them.
- CCP has no way to verify that a player receiving ISK actually purchased that ISK themselves - it could be someone else simply trying to rid themselves of a bitter rival or fierce competitor of some sort.
- The ISK seller obviously has no way to verify that the person paying for the ISK is the actual owner of the account that the ISK is being transferred to, nor would they probably care one way or the other.
That makes it pretty much impossible to take any definitive action against a player, without also triggering an entirely new set of problems. On the other hand, if you eliminate the ISK sellers, you consequently no longer have ISK buyers (i.e., illegitimate ISK buyers).
|
Taco Sundae |
Posted - 2008.04.09 01:16:00 - [ 59]
Quote:
This is regarding to some good ideas that WoW may have (ONLY good thing)
Blizzard currently has a program named "Warden". Warden is simply a program that presses ban and wtfpwnts hackers and macroers. However, there is more to Warden than the banning spree. Warden is hooked to a backdoor that is downloaded on all computers that has games of Blizzard downloaded. This backdoor transfers a list of all processes that the computer of the user is currently running as well as those simple scripts. It is then up to a human watcher to make the decision whether or not to blacklist a process. It may not be the most effective way to prevent Farmers but it is simply a horsefly that slowly eats away at their economy.
Backdoors may be illegal but you've agreed to have it on your computer in the EULA ugh
This is my 2 cents
Were you kicked in the head by a mule when you were a kid? Solutions like WOW's warden are the outcome of desperation. They invariably go where they shouldn't be (kernel space) in the effort to out maneuver the macroers/cheaters. This is always a losing race. Methods like this are always doomed from the start for the exact same reasons that copy protection and DRM are doomed to fail. As long as people still own and control their own hardware they will always be able to avoid detection (they being those who write the macro/cheat software). If the nanny program stays strictly in userspace then the macro/cheat will hide itself with any of dozens kernelspace rootkits designed to do just this. Then seeing that their nanny program is no longer effective at picking off the major farmers they will decide that the only chance they have to to also move into kernelspace. This will indeed work better at detecting programs hidden by run of the mill rootkits . Unfortunately once that happens the big farming ops with actual financial interest will have their own solution for hiding, which they will not share. All that will have been accomplished by this point is to remove competition from non-savy individuals who macro out of sheer boredom. The rabbit hole goes even deeper as CCP then decides to take active measures to thwart these farmers. They then decide that the only way to stop them is to hook important win32 API calls(like those commonly used for input injection/sniffing and screen scraping), and then return false results from the api calls when the EVE client is running. Unfortunately for CCP computers are wonderful things and there are always a 1001 ways to do something. CCP will never be able to plug every possible method that farmers could use to accomplish their goals. If they hook an API call that enables input to be injected into the message queue, macro software could then just implement their own "clean" version of the api call. Once again the only ones thwarted are those without the know-how or without the financial incentive to hire someone with the know-how. This process will continue ad infinitum until CCP finally calls it quits on the nanny. We will then all be left having to run this nanny program which is doing unspeakable things in kernelspace, and largely to no effect. All it will do is keep the honest peeps honest. Even if they do achieve the Holy Grail of nanny programs it will be to no avail. If the people who REALLY want to macro cant do it in software, they will do it in hardware. For 25 bucks in parts and a little know-how, smart macro'ing hardware could easily be made. They would look to the system like a run of the mill keyboard or mouse but really be a small uC sending input recieved from the macro program through some other channel(be it USB, Ethernet or whatever take your pick). This kind of fight is futile in every regard and I believe CCP knows this. Trust me this is a rabbit hole that you don't want to start down. Everyone but the major farmers lose. Thats my 2.5 pesos. |
Lucas Avignon
Avignon Associates Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.04.09 01:46:00 - [ 60]
You say raise awareness, could CCP please put a message in red above the username at the log in screen telling players that isk buying is illegal and possible a link to the GTC forums.
I know CCP did this before, but I think a more pernament message in red so everyone will see it at the log in screen would really make sure EVERYONE knows that it's wrong and you do have an option by using the secure system.
|
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