| Author |
Topic |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 19:58:00 - [ 91]
 Originally by: Zanpt
angry stuff
If what you say is true, all the player in question has to do is to keep escalating petitions until the ISK is returned to him. |
GM Krymus
 |
Posted - 2008.04.08 20:26:00 - [ 92]
Originally by: Zanpt
This just happened to one of our people to the extent of about 500 mil, and the lack of explanation is totally unacceptable. As far as "pray we do not investigate further," bite me. Rather, CCP should pray we do not cut off their revenue. You can bet this will be escalated and petitions filed until we DO have a rational explanation. 60+ account holders in our alliance are alarmed by this and watching it closely. Several of us operate public websites and will be happy to post the story there if CCP doesn't shape up and start behaving professionally.
No, our guy didn't buy ISK. He sold a fully fitted BS on The Market months ago, for a reasonable price.
This is something that I feel is important to address, as you are correct that if this had happened, it would be very serious indeed. We have never reversed legitimate market orders. If someone purchases ISK and makes a legitimate trade with someone, then the ISK buyer has the ISK removed. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation |
Posted - 2008.04.08 20:31:00 - [ 93]
Originally by: Zanpt
Originally by: coolie oberon
GM took 664 million isk from me, dropping me to below -430 mil There was no note of explanation, and petitions asking to discuss it were greeted with Vader-like -- "pray we do not investigate further" warnings.
After playing Eve for over a year I really am shocked at the way the GM treated me.
This just happened to one of our people to the extent of about 500 mil, and the lack of explanation is totally unacceptable. As far as "pray we do not investigate further," bite me. Rather, CCP should pray we do not cut off their revenue. You can bet this will be escalated and petitions filed until we DO have a rational explanation. 60+ account holders in our alliance are alarmed by this and watching it closely. Several of us operate public websites and will be happy to post the story there if CCP doesn't shape up and start behaving professionally.
No, our guy didn't buy ISK. He sold a fully fitted BS on The Market months ago, for a reasonable price.
Oh no! Not Ultionis Quietus! What would Eve ever do without the most important alliance in New Eden!!!!?????? |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 21:02:00 - [ 94]
Originally by: Ephemeron
I'm curious: what would happen if he bought 1000 mil on his alt, then purched 1000 mil worth of trit, transfered it to his main character, sold it.
GMs take away 1000 mil from his alt, he simply deletes the alt. What then?
The Tritanium transfer would show in the logs I would think. |
Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 21:05:00 - [ 95]
GM stole my bike...I mean ISK. |
Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition. |
Posted - 2008.04.08 21:07:00 - [ 96]
Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 08/04/2008 21:07:33 Originally by: GM Krymus
Originally by: Zanpt
This just happened to one of our people to the extent of about 500 mil, and the lack of explanation is totally unacceptable. As far as "pray we do not investigate further," bite me. Rather, CCP should pray we do not cut off their revenue. You can bet this will be escalated and petitions filed until we DO have a rational explanation. 60+ account holders in our alliance are alarmed by this and watching it closely. Several of us operate public websites and will be happy to post the story there if CCP doesn't shape up and start behaving professionally.
No, our guy didn't buy ISK. He sold a fully fitted BS on The Market months ago, for a reasonable price.
This is something that I feel is important to address, as you are correct that if this had happened, it would be very serious indeed. We have never reversed legitimate market orders. If someone purchases ISK and makes a legitimate trade with someone, then the ISK buyer has the ISK removed.
Don't destroy the drug users lives. Put the drug dealers in jail. That is my only advice to you. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 21:09:00 - [ 97]
Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 21:09:28 Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn
Don't destroy the drug users lives. Put the drug dealers in jail. That is my only advice to you.
I could argue that legalizing all drugs, but regulating them like any other "luxury good" (tobacco, alcohool) would be even better. |
Gilmour
Evil Monkey Asylum
Wile E Coyote's |
Posted - 2008.04.08 21:11:00 - [ 98]
Originally by: GM Krymus
Originally by: Zanpt
This just happened to one of our people to the extent of about 500 mil, and the lack of explanation is totally unacceptable. As far as "pray we do not investigate further," bite me. Rather, CCP should pray we do not cut off their revenue. You can bet this will be escalated and petitions filed until we DO have a rational explanation. 60+ account holders in our alliance are alarmed by this and watching it closely. Several of us operate public websites and will be happy to post the story there if CCP doesn't shape up and start behaving professionally.
No, our guy didn't buy ISK. He sold a fully fitted BS on The Market months ago, for a reasonable price.
This is something that I feel is important to address, as you are correct that if this had happened, it would be very serious indeed. We have never reversed legitimate market orders. If someone purchases ISK and makes a legitimate trade with someone, then the ISK buyer has the ISK removed.
So what happens if the GM was abit trigger happy and did make a mistake putting the player with several hundred million in the red? I guess the investigation takes ages like most petitions? Will he be compensated or will he only get the isk back a month later with a "sorry, we messed up" message? |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 21:14:00 - [ 99]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/04/2008 21:14:51 Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn
Don't destroy the drug users lives. Put the drug dealers in jail. That is my only advice to you.
Guy buys isk. Gm removes this isk. Guy should then buy a GTC and sell that to get isk legally and get back in the positive. After all, Isk buyers have money to spend right? Well, then they can go ahead and spend it on GTC's. Their lives are not ruined at all. And I guess they can do a chargeback on the isk farmers so they dont get money either. |
GM Krymus
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 21:18:00 - [ 100]
Originally by: Gilmour
So what happens if the GM was abit trigger happy and did make a mistake putting the player with several hundred million in the red? I guess the investigation takes ages like most petitions?
Will he be compensated or will he only get the isk back a month later with a "sorry, we messed up" message?
Thank you for making this excellent point - I can assure you that ISK is not removed without an investigation taking place beforehand. If any form of mistake is made with this, it will be resolved as soon as possible. |
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries |
Posted - 2008.04.08 21:23:00 - [ 101]
Originally by: Gilmour
So what happens if the GM was abit trigger happy and did make a mistake putting the player with several hundred million in the red? I guess the investigation takes ages like most petitions?
Will he be compensated or will he only get the isk back a month later with a "sorry, we messed up" message?
First, problems of this nature should be filed under the correct category: Exploit or GM Action. That way you will jump ahead of all the regular Reimbursment petitions. As for fixing mistakes, I have dealt with CCP on an issue where they screwed up royally, and they did go beyond simply fixing the original error and make a reasonable effort to compensate for secondary damages. Just be realistic in what you ask for and you will likely get it. I know in my case they did everything I asked for, which only left me wondering if I should have asked for more.  |
Gilmour
Evil Monkey Asylum
Wile E Coyote's |
Posted - 2008.04.08 21:28:00 - [ 102]
|
Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources |
Posted - 2008.04.08 22:08:00 - [ 103]
Originally by: Gilmour
Mistakes happen, nobodys perfect.
Yes. It would help a lot to reveal a possible mistake if in cases like the OP described - ISK buyer or not - a mail would be sent by the GM like "We have removed X ISK from your wallet because...". To explain nothing and answering when he asks for a reason "Shut up!" (the answer he got wasn't much better) is simply impossible. Tbh I think something went wrong with this GM and I can't believe that this is the usual behaviour even against a proven ISK buyer. Especially for new players it is easy to buy ISK without having the feeling to do something forbidden since even "serious" EVE-related websites advertise for buying ISK (or link adverts or have Google ads with links). You only need to not read the EULA (and who reads the complete EULA when he starts playing the game?) and not browse through the forum to feel happy about the "great" offer to buy ingame money for hard cash. That's not a justification for ISK buying but a motivation why there must always be a explanation for actions against a player, also for such capital crimes like buying ISK. |
Priest Amarr
Amarr
Temple's Gate
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 23:09:00 - [ 104]
ISK sellers use these kind of things as an opportunity to start a negative PR campaign against CCP. There is no need to make it sound like CCP acts with bad intentions. Even if there is a mistake it can be corrected.
On the other hand it is very true that GMs should make a proper explanation to the person in question. Even if somebody is really guilty, he still is entitled to know why he is punished.
It really is not easy managing a customer service over a certain size and Eve doesn't have a small customer base. Training every employee and creating a system that can handle every situation with professionalism is a difficult task. If a GM or Dev is coming here and says "we are listening , we are trying to make it better" , its a step at the right direction.
I think what is important here is, residents of Eve always want to see CCP acting its best , no matter if the other side deserves it or not. CCP should be happy their community care and want to see it as a company of high standards.
What is good for Eve is good for the Temple
Priest Amarr |
Cassandra Beckinsale |
Posted - 2008.04.08 23:11:00 - [ 105]
Edited by: Cassandra Beckinsale on 08/04/2008 23:11:56Yeah, mistakes can be corrected, but how much? How? HELPI want to make my brother play! Help me! |
Arvald
Caldari
Drunken Space Irish
|
Posted - 2008.04.08 23:28:00 - [ 106]
this thread makes me wonder, if you were to scam 1 bill of someone for, oh i dont know lets say a raven "bpo" (bpc) and the person got the 1 bill by purchasing it would the seamer have the isk removed from his wallet? because that would be one hell of a case of karma  |
Matalino |
Posted - 2008.04.08 23:43:00 - [ 107]
Originally by: Arvald
this thread makes me wonder, if you were to scam 1 bill of someone for, oh i dont know lets say a raven "bpo" (bpc) and the person got the 1 bill by purchasing it would the seamer have the isk removed from his wallet? because that would be one hell of a case of karma
You only need to worry if you scam an annoymous alt. If you scam a legitmate player either: 1) You will keep your "earnings" and he will end up in the hole because he bought ISK. or 2) You will end up in the hole and he will get a perma-ban for laundering ISK. Either way, your victim is still the worse off. |
F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2008.04.09 00:14:00 - [ 108]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
I like these threads, they provide me with interesting logs to read when I'm bored. 
Seriously, if you know you're totally innocent and did everything by the book; You should escalate a petition to a senior GM. He'll go over the entirity of your logs and take actions accordingly.
I call H4X on this post. The "dev" posted without a blue bar showing on the main page. Obviously something malfeasant is occurring. I'll be sending a mail to Internal Affairs shortly. |
Zanpt
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.04.09 00:18:00 - [ 109]
Originally by: GM Krymus
Originally by: Zanpt
This just happened to one of our people to the extent of about 500 mil, and the lack of explanation is totally unacceptable. As far as "pray we do not investigate further," bite me. Rather, CCP should pray we do not cut off their revenue. You can bet this will be escalated and petitions filed until we DO have a rational explanation. 60+ account holders in our alliance are alarmed by this and watching it closely. Several of us operate public websites and will be happy to post the story there if CCP doesn't shape up and start behaving professionally.
No, our guy didn't buy ISK. He sold a fully fitted BS on The Market months ago, for a reasonable price.
This is something that I feel is important to address, as you are correct that if this had happened, it would be very serious indeed. We have never reversed legitimate market orders. If someone purchases ISK and makes a legitimate trade with someone, then the ISK buyer has the ISK removed.
Well, AFAIK the injured player has opened a petition with particulars of the stolen ISK and we've advised him to add a request for escalation to a senior GM. Separately I've opened a petition to call attention to it. Hopefully CCP will look at it more closely. Since we don't believe the player did anything wrong, "Pray we don't investigate further" would be a silly and empty threat, but it wasn't made in this case -- no communication was received at all. We are cautiously optimistic. |
Cassy Dark
Gallente
Lunar Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.04.09 00:28:00 - [ 110]
Originally by: Zanpt
Well, AFAIK the injured player has opened a petition with particulars of the stolen ISK and we've advised him to add a request for escalation to a senior GM. Separately I've opened a petition to call attention to it. Hopefully CCP will look at it more closely. Since we don't believe the player did anything wrong, "Pray we don't investigate further" would be a silly and empty threat, but it wasn't made in this case -- no communication was received at all.
We are cautiously optimistic.
Close that petition now... Just do it... It's bloody stupid to file a petition just to "call attention" to someone elses petition... The only thing you'll achive is cloging up the system for legit petitions and annoing the GMs... I fail to see how an annoied GM can help you in this case, especially since it isnt your case... |
Zanpt
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.04.09 01:17:00 - [ 111]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Oh no! Not Ultionis Quietus! What would Eve ever do without the most important alliance in New Eden!!!!??????
Very funny. The real question is what CCP would do without the nominal $960 per month or $11,520 per year. I for one keep CCP on a short leash, using only 30-day time codes. When they annoy me I allow more accounts to go idle; when they behave well I keep more accounts active. If they deny a reimbursement I believe should have been made, I fine them in U.S. Dollars by allowing accounts to spend some time inactive. An inactive account is equivalent to about 8.3 million ISK per day. If we were to idle all 64 accounts for just one day at their next expiration, that would amount to the equivalent of 540 million ISK subtracted from CCP's revenue stream in cold, hard RL cash. Not much, but it would settle our gripe, wouldn't it? And if more people did that, CCP could watch their revenue tick up or down according to how well they treat the user base. Works for me. |
GM Krymus
|
Posted - 2008.04.09 01:27:00 - [ 112]
Originally by: Zanpt
Well, AFAIK the injured player has opened a petition with particulars of the stolen ISK and we've advised him to add a request for escalation to a senior GM. Separately I've opened a petition to call attention to it. Hopefully CCP will look at it more closely. Since we don't believe the player did anything wrong, "Pray we don't investigate further" would be a silly and empty threat, but it wasn't made in this case -- no communication was received at all.
We are cautiously optimistic.
Whilst I of course understand your concern for your friend, I would advise against filing petitions of your own regarding the matter. These will not speed up the speed of the investigation, which will of course be done at first opportunity. Furthermore we are unable to discuss cases regarding anyone other than the person involved. With regards to the request to escalate to a senior GM, whilst this is of course an option should anyone feel unfairly treated by the GM that answered their petition, or that their case has not been handled correctly, asking for it without the case being looked into by a normal GM is not productive, however. All cases have to be investigated fully prior to being escalated. |
Zanpt
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.04.09 01:27:00 - [ 113]
Originally by: Cassy Dark
Close that petition now... Just do it... It's bloody stupid to file a petition just to "call attention" to someone elses petition... The only thing you'll achive is cloging up the system for legit petitions and annoing the GMs... I fail to see how an annoied GM can help you in this case, especially since it isnt your case...
Dear CCP fanboi: It's about time that CCP and its GMs began to think about annoyed players. You know, the players who pay all their bills. Maybe if someone in your family loses $500 to a mysterious bank debit without explanation, you'll refrain from "annoying" the bank's customer disservice because "it isn't your case." What's bloody stupid is regarding CCP and GMs as if they were gods. They are human and have a lot they can improve on. I hope they do. Get lost. |
Zanpt
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.04.09 01:56:00 - [ 114]
Originally by: GM Krymus
...With regards to the request to escalate to a senior GM, whilst this is of course an option should anyone feel unfairly treated by the GM that answered their petition, or that their case has not been handled correctly, asking for it without the case being looked into by a normal GM is not productive, however. All cases have to be investigated fully prior to being escalated.
Pro: GMs responding in threads like this one. This is a Good Thing(TM). Con: Failure to grasp the seriousness of what seems to have happened. He has already been injured. Total unprofessionalism by a GM has already occurred. If there had been an explanation, an evemail or regular email, there would be something to go on and to communicate about, with who/what/where/alleged-why. As it was, some utter moron transferred 500 mil ISK from his account to a nonexistent account and didn't say a word about why. CCP is already way behind the 8-ball in this. Meanwhile the guy's account is effectively disabled. What don't you understand about the seriousness of this in the context of the game? Maybe he should wait a week or two, or a month, not being able to play, when CCP has a horrible track record of handling petitions? Mabe he should get disgusted and leave the game? What kind of outcome are you expecting here? It's not going to go away. |
Zarin |
Posted - 2008.04.09 06:03:00 - [ 115]
Despite people's insistance that they haven't bought isk etc, I personally would see them prove it with their API before I believed them over the decision of several GMs (sure one then can escalate it, but if they get a negative result after that then they are probably lying through their teeth to their corp mates, I've seen it happen from the most unlikely people.) |
IamAcontractALT |
Posted - 2008.04.09 06:07:00 - [ 116]
Perhaps the question to ask is where the guy got the isk from?
How could he put a rigged ship for sale on market? |
Zanpt
Caldari |
Posted - 2008.04.09 06:33:00 - [ 117]
Well, our guy got his GM response to his petition. He got a brush-off. Totally, completely, egregiously unacceptable. This will get just as ugly as CCP allows it to. |
Phoenicia
hirr
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2008.04.09 06:38:00 - [ 118]
"Dude, where's your isk?"
- "Where's my isk, dude?"
Sorry ^^ |
Phoenicia
hirr
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2008.04.09 06:39:00 - [ 119]
Originally by: Zanpt
Well, our guy got his GM response to his petition. He got a brush-off. Totally, completely, egregiously unacceptable. This will get just as ugly as CCP allows it to.
By "brush-off" you mean "We have confirmed that the isk has been transferred through illegitimate means"? |
Alrich |
Posted - 2008.04.09 06:52:00 - [ 120]
so if i buy a char, is there any whay of insuring that he wont get -100 mill a week or two after the pursase? |
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