| Author |
Topic |
Gargoth Furia
Minmatar
White Wolf Enterprises |
Posted - 2008.04.04 10:19:00 - [ 1]
Ok, this IS an old topic, discussed probably several times before, but something must be done about it.
I am totally fed up with people that pop in mission pocket where i am shooting down NPC's and then salvaging wrecks shot down by me. it feels like i am risking 200+mil ship to able to do lvl 4 missions, and then someone else just pops in and "steals" part of my income.
i did not grind missions for about week or two (in worst case scenario) to be able to get me mission fitted bship for high lvl missions in hope to get better salvage and thus be able to build rigs out from them so that someone else benefits from it more than i do. At least i wish CCP would make salvaging wrecks not killed by you an killright action so i can do SOMETHING about it because right now you cant do anything , just be there and watch someone else collect the fruits of your "labor" |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 10:37:00 - [ 2]
Sorry that you are fed up with your own misconception. Just because you shoot the rat, doesn't mean you have ownership of the salvage, that goes to whoever gets to it first. That is the definition of the salvage profession and mechanics.
You have to get it into your head, that it's not your's, that those that salvage in your missions, are entitled to do so.
If you want to reduce the chance of it happening, get out of the overcrowded mission hub. Yes, you might earn a bit less on missions, but you should get that back on the salvage you can collect, and then some. |
Gargoth Furia
Minmatar
White Wolf Enterprises |
Posted - 2008.04.04 10:54:00 - [ 3]
well, that is definitedly the change i am looking for in here. "you keep what you kill" etc. For mission runner like me, salvage is about 2/3 of my total income in game, so after you spend hour or more to clean up an mission pocket and then someone else salvages all those ships you just shot down, feels like thievery to me  |
Trawf Zwei
Minmatar
Interwarp Plexus
Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss |
Posted - 2008.04.04 11:06:00 - [ 4]
Think about salvaging, its like scavenging, someone else does the dirty work so the scavengers come and take whats left before the owner returns, you leave things around at your own risk and people will scavenge.
Accept it, or have a friend salvage for you as soon as your finished therefore reducing the time that the wrecks are left for others to come and take. |
Gargoth Furia
Minmatar
White Wolf Enterprises |
Posted - 2008.04.04 11:26:00 - [ 5]
Edited by: Gargoth Furia on 04/04/2008 11:26:50
yeah, i do regognize that as well.
but at least, as i stated above, i would like to have a right to defend those wrecks, to get killright on the guy who salvages it.
just a basic examble of nature: some beast kills a prey, and if some other animal tries to take that carcass fresh after kill, that beast WILL defend what it just killed.
Same should go for this, in current state of game, you can only idly sit back and watch while someone takes your "kill" and if you try to shoot him, concord will interfere.
And no, i dont want to go to low sec for missions, if i wanna do PvP i will do pirate alt for that. |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 12:14:00 - [ 6]
Bring a friend, make him salvage as you do the mission, share the salvage.
Just look at how long is salvaging, you may not be loosing money and make someone happy!
He can even come in a arbitrator/vexor/myrmidon, help you for combat while salvaging! |
Julia Newmatar
Caldari
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.04.04 12:20:00 - [ 7]
 Originally by: Gargoth Furia
well, that is definitedly the change i am looking for in here.
"you keep what you kill" etc.
For mission runner like me, salvage is about 2/3 of my total income in game, so after you spend hour or more to clean up an mission pocket and then someone else salvages all those ships you just shot down, feels like thievery to me
The ownership thing has been gone over again and again, in short it's simple, the wreck belongs to the rat, just like your ships wreck belongs to you when you're killed and not to the aggressor, if you want wrecks to belong to the aggressor then the same should apply to pvp. If anything, if someone warps in and starts salvaging he should be aggressed by the remaining rats, he is stealing from them after-all. |
zmattz |
Posted - 2008.04.04 23:21:00 - [ 8]
Get over it Gargoth! The balance in the game is right here. If you don't like it you need to stake your claim and defend what you believe to be yours. If you don't want to be the agressor you better hurry up and clean up! Laters... |
Clotaire
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn |
Posted - 2008.04.05 08:48:00 - [ 9]
I have to agree with Garoth here. Most of EVE is based on the concept of risk vs. reward. The risk of losing a ship in the lvl 4 mission is balanced by the reward of the loot, salvage and bounties of the rats. Salvage theft has almost no risk, because the mission runner can't shoot back, but the reward is great. By giving the mission runner the right to defend their gains, the salvager's would have to risk their ships every time they try to steal someones salvage. |
Gargoth Furia
Minmatar
White Wolf Enterprises |
Posted - 2008.04.05 10:14:00 - [ 10]
Edited by: Gargoth Furia on 05/04/2008 10:16:14So if the idea of flagging wrecks sounds repulsive, then i would at least hope some limitations on pockets where you are doing missions. For examble, you can not get in to that area (even with probing) if you are not in the same fleet, and that area becomes "public" after mission taker completes the mission. This way there would be way to control that no-one unwanted may enter, and when player presses the complete mission, he abandons his rights to salvage wrecks from his mission. and no more tears from mission runners about ninja salvaging. Edit: and thank you Clotaire, i was beginning to think that i am only one thinking this way  |
Arous Drephius
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2008.04.05 11:19:00 - [ 11]
For goodness sake people, IT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE. CCP changed it from the old system of salvaging giving aggression to the current one.
You hear that? They made it like it is now ON PURPOSE. |
Kestrix |
Posted - 2008.04.05 11:43:00 - [ 12]
Learn to fly a Dominix, then you can salvage as you do the missions :) |
Chruker |
Posted - 2008.04.05 14:46:00 - [ 13]
I doesn't make sense that the salvage items aren't protected but the loot items are.
So either protect them both or none |
Telal
Caldari
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder |
Posted - 2008.04.05 22:36:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Chruker
I doesn't make sense that the salvage items aren't protected but the loot items are.
So either protect them both or none
This is pretty close to what I was going to say. Not just that, but the logic that salvage doesn't belong to anyone is flawed in the regard that the salvagable material is the product of a player's activities. I'm not saying CONCORD should swoop in when someone else touches your can, but kill rights based on aggressive activity are certainly warranted. How is invading the area assigned to another player by an agent, without being a member of their party, and with the intent of taking something of value which doesn't belong to them, not considered aggressive? It's borderline malicious, easily regarded as exploitive. If people want salvage, they can go pop their own rats, if they want valueable material that they dont have to work for, they can go mining. Mission-running is a profession for which people train a wide variety of skills to be able to achieve proficiency of, and swarms of newbies in frigates with scan probes are making them less than valuable. "Overpopulation" of a mission hub is not a valid reason to penalize mission runners, it's a valid reason to look at increasing bandwidth |
Telal
Caldari
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder |
Posted - 2008.04.05 22:42:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Arous Drephius
They made it like it is now ON PURPOSE.
Right, but why is it a good idea? People used to dance to the macarena.. ON PURPOSE |
Telal
Caldari
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder |
Posted - 2008.04.05 23:09:00 - [ 16]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
You have to get it into your head, that it's not your's, that those that salvage in your missions, are entitled to do so.
That in itself doesn't make sense, it actually brings up a valid counterpoint in itself. "Your missions" . A mission, and everything in its area, is only generated when a player accepts a mission. Player receives mission reward upon completion. Player is responsible to complete mission before expiration or the player is penalized, player is the only person with the agent-provided bookmark (unless he/she distributes it) essentially leaving the player in a position to pick and choose who to include in the group which will be acting in the mission area. Everything about this smells of ownership to the player involved and/or whoever has been in the area to do some amount of the killing. It doesn't make sense to make salvagable items within a player mission accessable to anyone. It might be fine in asteroid fields or complexes publicly accessable areas, but it's counterintuitive to make private missions into a public grab-bag |
Vadimik
Gallente |
Posted - 2008.04.05 23:24:00 - [ 17]
Edited by: Vadimik on 05/04/2008 23:29:27 Originally by: Telal
Originally by: Arous Drephius
They made it like it is now ON PURPOSE.
Right, but why is it a good idea? People used to dance to the macarena.. ON PURPOSE
Yes, it was a good idea. Cause instanses are BAD for a MMO, for one. Or cause it shows why exactly lowsec can be better. And for many other reasons. And I fail to see how macarena has something to do with salvaging. |
Telal
Caldari
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder |
Posted - 2008.04.06 03:51:00 - [ 18]
Edited by: Telal on 06/04/2008 04:03:47 Originally by: Vadimik
Yes, it was a good idea. Cause instanses are BAD for a MMO, for one. Or cause it shows why exactly lowsec can be better. And for many other reasons.
And I fail to see how macarena has something to do with salvaging.
Though instances can be bad for an MMO, missions are the only element of EVE which is instance-based. Even then, the argument isn't that other players shouldn't be able to enter mission areas, or even throw off some shots. As far as showing "why exactly lowsec can be better", I hardly think that lowsec requires an advertisement in the form of illogical game mechanics, lowsec already has valuable purposes that don't have anything to do with mission running. And I was using the example of the macarena to illustrate that just because something was intentional doesn't mean that it is/was a good idea |
Vadimik
Gallente |
Posted - 2008.04.06 10:16:00 - [ 19]
Edited by: Vadimik on 06/04/2008 10:18:14 Quote:
Though instances can be bad for an MMO, missions are the only element of EVE which is instance-based. Even then, the argument isn't that other players shouldn't be able to enter mission areas, or even throw off some shots.
So you have no problems with players salvaging or looting "your" stuff, of killing "your" rats, as long as they get flagged to you ? Quote:
As far as showing "why exactly lowsec can be better", I hardly think that lowsec requires an advertisement in the form of illogical game mechanics, lowsec already has valuable purposes that don't have anything to do with mission running.
I'm afraid it's not low sec that needs advertisement, it's highsec that needs to make limitation implied by concord protection more obvious. Times and again in history of EvE mankind has had huge issue with parties claiming ownships rights over items they can't even make use of at the moment. (see why mankind decided to follow into EvE wormhole at the start.) Learning from their mistakes, now in high sec space the rule is: unless the item has in-build ownship indicators (like, anchorable items), and if you need special equipment to make use of it, the one to come with special equipment gets to try it. Important: gets to try, not to own. You only own it once some items are inside your cargohold, and then again only over the items already inside it. Same story with roids, same with hackable cans, etc. Jetcans are different, cause you need no special equipment to make use of it. Long story short: to prevent claiming rights over things one can't use, you can't claim rights over things that need special equipment to use. |
Gargoth Furia
Minmatar
White Wolf Enterprises |
Posted - 2008.04.06 12:12:00 - [ 20]
so it would raise an hailstorm of whine if wrecks are flagged, ok, then as i said on my last post, why not to make those mission pockets secure? as in: no-one may enter, besides those people in your fleet?
you dont want to salvage, press "coplete mission"
you want to salvage: you do it. and nobody can come in while you are in combat with about 4-10 ships and *yoink!* those wrecks before your nose when you cant do anything about it. (and after you salvage you press that complete mission)
that way, player would have some control over those wrecks.
and as well, that would make solo mission running possible, because it seems most of the time, everyone just says: "bring a friend to salvage when you battle", right...
Thanks, but i play Eve to do something alone, since on rl i am most of the time busy with other ppl. |
Norjia Blacksteel
Gallente
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Renaissance Federation |
Posted - 2008.04.06 14:29:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Clotaire
I have to agree with Garoth here. Most of EVE is based on the concept of risk vs. reward. The risk of losing a ship in the lvl 4 mission is balanced by the reward of the loot, salvage and bounties of the rats. Salvage theft has almost no risk, because the mission runner can't shoot back, but the reward is great. By giving the mission runner the right to defend their gains, the salvager's would have to risk their ships every time they try to steal someones salvage.
The game worked fine before salvage even existed. Salvage was added in Revelations. Suddenly, there was a lot more money to be had from missions. But it came with the caveat that anyone could nab it. Good going by CCP. |
Telal
Caldari
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder |
Posted - 2008.04.06 18:53:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Vadimik
So you have no problems with players salvaging or looting "your" stuff, of killing "your" rats, as long as they get flagged to you ?
Exactly. The problem I have is that a player has no ability to defend whats been assigned to him in high sec. (Even then, I personally wouldn't mind someone sneaking into my mission to pop the rats. If they killed it, they've earned whatever perks come with it) Originally by: Vadimik
Important: gets to try, not to own. You only own it once some items are inside your cargohold, and then again only over the items already inside it.
Only getting to "try" is not consistent with the mechanics of mission assignment. If a mission doesn't get finished, the player who is was assigned to receives the standing penalty associated. That point, along with rat bounties and loot being assigned to the killing party, makes the current configuration of salvaging rights inconsistent, especially within the area of agent-assigned missions where the player is responsible for everything else |
Telal
Caldari
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder |
Posted - 2008.04.06 19:06:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Gargoth Furia
so it would raise an hailstorm of whine if wrecks are flagged, ok, then as i said on my last post, why not to make those mission pockets secure? as in: no-one may enter, besides those people in your fleet?
you dont want to salvage, press "coplete mission"
you want to salvage: you do it. and nobody can come in while you are in combat with about 4-10 ships and *yoink!* those wrecks before your nose when you cant do anything about it. (and after you salvage you press that complete mission)
that way, player would have some control over those wrecks.
and as well, that would make solo mission running possible, because it seems most of the time, everyone just says: "bring a friend to salvage when you battle", right...
Thanks, but i play Eve to do something alone, since on rl i am most of the time busy with other ppl.
I'm not sure that it would make sense to just make space impossible to enter, space doesn't just disappear (and I mean on a typical basis, I'm not trying to prompt any wonky physics proofs). Scan disruptors within mission areas would be more realistic, and logical considering that pirates likely don't wish to be located themselves, based on what theyre up to. |
Telal
Caldari
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder |
Posted - 2008.04.06 19:11:00 - [ 24]
Edited by: Telal on 06/04/2008 19:12:12 Originally by: Vadimik
Times and again in history of EvE mankind has had huge issue with parties claiming ownships rights over items they can't even make use of at the moment. (see why mankind decided to follow into EvE wormhole at the start.) Learning from their mistakes, now in high sec space the rule is: unless the item has in-build ownship indicators (like, anchorable items), and if you need special equipment to make use of it, the one to come with special equipment gets to try it.
I don't think that that's an invalid point as it pertains to the backstory of EVE, but considering how loot is assigned to the killing party, and based on how missions are assigned, I don't think that the current salvage right configuration is consistent with the rest of the game's mechanics |
Vadimik
Gallente |
Posted - 2008.04.06 20:02:00 - [ 25]
Edited by: Vadimik on 06/04/2008 21:39:16
Ok now, here is where we are having an issue: you seem to think that missions are somehow "special", while I think that rules for mission rats should be the same as for belt rats, gate rats, exploration rats, player wrecks, etc...
I see no point to argue it with you any further: we just have different opinions.
I just want to assure you, there are pretty good reasons (see above), both storyline-wise and gameplay-wise, for the currect differences in flagging for salvaging wreck and taking loot cans from them. |
Julius Romanus
Amarr |
Posted - 2008.04.06 21:36:00 - [ 26]
Anywhere else that guy 'stealing' your salvage would just be ransoming your pve bs or podding you. You're safe enough already in high sec. |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
|
Posted - 2008.04.07 08:54:00 - [ 27]
Originally by: Telal
Originally by: Vadimik
So you have no problems with players salvaging or looting "your" stuff, of killing "your" rats, as long as they get flagged to you ?
Exactly. The problem I have is that a player has no ability to defend whats been assigned to him in high sec.
But it has not been assigned to 'him'. That is where you go wrong. The loot has been 'assigned' to you but not the salvage that might be in the wreck. You have no rights to salvage, but you have the option, everyone has. It's like belt rats, if you are there first, I can still go in and blow them up right from under you. They are not assigned to you in any way. |
Trigos Trilobi
Sebiestor Tribe |
Posted - 2008.04.07 12:00:00 - [ 28]
Originally by: Clotaire
I have to agree with Garoth here. Most of EVE is based on the concept of risk vs. reward. The risk of losing a ship in the lvl 4 mission is balanced by the reward of the loot, salvage and bounties of the rats. Salvage theft has almost no risk, because the mission runner can't shoot back, but the reward is great. By giving the mission runner the right to defend their gains, the salvager's would have to risk their ships every time they try to steal someones salvage.
Mission rewards and bounties were pretty much the same before the introduction of salvage, which either means that mission risk vs rewards was unbalanced before OR salvage actually isn't and was never meant to be just guaranteed extra pay for the guy with a CNR. Salvaging was meant to be a tiny proffession of its own, and that wouldn't quite work with kill rights. Your error is that you think wrecks belong to you while CCP has actually both said and proven in practice (via game mechanic changes) that it is actually quite the opposite. In short, working as intended. The risk of losing a ship in the lvl 4 mission (not much of a risk actually :P) is balanced by the loot, bounties, lp and mission cash reward just like it was before wrecks and salvage were introduced. |
Gargoth Furia
Minmatar
White Wolf Enterprises |
Posted - 2008.04.07 12:17:00 - [ 29]
I'm not sure that it would make sense to just make space impossible to enter, space doesn't just disappear (and I mean on a typical basis, I'm not trying to prompt any wonky physics proofs). Scan disruptors within mission areas would be more realistic, and logical considering that pirates likely don't wish to be located themselves, based on what theyre up to.
Ok that works for me too, as long as there would be some way to prevent random people popping up around me when i am trying to do mission |
|
All Channels
Test Server Feedback
