Posted - 2008.03.31 01:44:00 - [31]

 

Originally by: Yuki Nagato

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You warp in caps -> they warp in battleships -> you warp in battleships -> they warp their support out -> you get doomsdayed -> they warp back in -> your capitals get destroyed.

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And what are your caps doing while getting doomsdayed? Twiddling their thumbs? I don't own a Titan, but won't 20 dreads in siege pretty much melt a Titan in a minute or two? Titans are very expensive, time-consuming and logistics consuming to produce while dreads are very easy to replace.

And like a lot of things in EVE, the counter to a Titan is ..... your own Titan. When both sides have 2+ Titans on the fied, neither side can safely use non-capital ships so it is pretty even.

Now multiple Titans sitting on a cynojammer, yeah that is really broken.

But you have to admit, there are a lot of lame mechanics that have to deal with capital ships and capital ship blobs. Now CCP can either nerf cap ships or maybe introduce a new sub-capital ship class that excels at killing capital ships. Either way, it needs to be carefully balanced so don't do any holding of the breath.

Now a simple 1 DD per hr per system sounds like an easy solution, but if you built 8 Titans and subsequent officer gear and alts to fly them you'd be pretty ****ed.

Posted - 2008.03.31 01:53:00 - [33]

 

Question: Do doomsday devices hurt other titans nearby as well?

Posted - 2008.03.31 02:21:00 - [35]

 

Originally by: Katana Seiko

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Question: Do doomsday devices hurt other titans nearby as well?

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yes.

But being the ship with the biggest amount of base HP (well deserved) it will be the last ship to get popped in a situation where a lot of doomsdays are dropped at once (besides perhaps something completely faction tanked).

I'd like titans to be true mobile stations. Stations you can put your ships in, stations with a clonebay which you would wake up in after you die. When the pilot logs off his titan should stay in space. (At a pos, or maybe a 'pos' mode, when the titan logs off it appears 1 au from any spacial object such as a moon/station/gate so they can never be on gates (ewarp distance away))

As far as damage you can introduce titan class guns to replace a doomsday.

Posted - 2008.03.31 04:31:00 - [37]

 

Removing the doomsday device is just stupid. Yes, you still have the jump bridge and stuff, but that's just pathetic for such an obscenely expensive ship.

The real problem is not titans, it's POSes and the broken mechanics surrounding them. Right now, the only worthwhile strategic objective in EVE is killing POSes and putting up your own. Sure, roaming gangs and stuff are fun, but to take territory and build your empire, you get to deal with POS warfare.

Now, the problem with POS warfare is that it completely kills the "hit them where they're weak" approach to dealing with titans. Since you have a reinforced timer (necessary to prevent even bigger problems), all of those titan pilots know exactly where to be to drop a doomsday. Instead of being spread out to protect various objectives, they can set their alarm clocks, call in sick from work, and all be sitting there waiting when the fleet shows up.

And it only gets worse when you have an opponent down to a small region of space. Now there are so few targets (all in titan jump range) that even if you reinforce multiple towers at once, the titans can all come to blow away your fleet, whichever POS you actually try to finish off. Let's not forget that goons pretty much won this war... it's kind of interesting how silent everyone was about "OMG BROKEN TITANS" when BoB was losing region after region and the titans were doing nothing to stop it.

So yeah, fix POS warfare, not titans.

Posted - 2008.03.31 05:54:00 - [39]

 

Originally by: Yuki Nagato

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Originally by: LukeDS

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there are ways to kill them

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NO, THERE ISN'T.

Stop propagating this thought-terminating cliche. It is impossible. Here, let me give you a scenario:

Eight Titans on a grid. 3x Avatar, 3x Ragnarok, 2x Erebus. Any area within 250km of the Titan blob is a deadzone. You warp in your battleships -> double doomsday -> all battleships are dead. Then they doomsday again, and kill the pods. Now your entire fleet is without ships and in a station. If they happen to have a jump bridge or a Titan then they might be able to get back in. You reform your fleet which takes a while. All doomsdays reset and they have eight again.

You warp in heavy dictors -> the carriers/motherships escorting the Titans blow them away.

You warp in frigates with fighters -> they get smartbombed or doomsdayed.

You warp in caps -> they warp in battleships -> you warp in battleships -> they warp their support out -> you get doomsdayed -> they warp back in -> your capitals get destroyed.

Nothing can counter multiple doomsdays. Battleships cannot be "tanked" for more than two unless you use officer gear, rigs and expensive implants, and even then they can just fire five which is the max amount of HP a battleship can be theoretically tanked at with officer gear, overheated with T2 rigs, a full Slave set and a mindlinked Damnation in gang.

Subcapitals have no place in 0.0 warfare now, except as cannon fodder to cynosural jammer towers as they assault towers guarded eight invulnerable Titans with absolutely no friendly capital support.

The game is BROKEN.

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If that is all you can come up with, you deserve to lose. Do you really expect to win against titans with a tactic that is exactly the tactic they are set up to beat?
Lack of imagination and tactics is not a flaw of the game.

Posted - 2008.03.31 06:49:00 - [41]

 

The big problem with Titans is that they kill things to be honest. They're a huge ship that does actual damage points to other ships, and that's a problem because it means they will always stack favorably.

The Doomsday needs to be modified so it can't actually kill a ship - i.e. it needs the remaining ships around to actually finish off what gets hit.

Some type of proportional damage as a % of remaining HP would be excellent, because then Titans would begin to stack unfavorably.

It would also solve the problem of the doomsdays and lag to an extent - lag DD'ing a fleet wouldn't work, since you wouldn't get any kills.

Finally, this would also orient Titans more towards being a capital combat asset - a doomsday that takes 50% of the tankable HP of a capital away has just done a lot more damage then the same to a battleship.

So, PROPOSAL: Change doomsdays so they remove 33% of a ships total (struct+armor+shields) HP. The damage a DD does should be scaled by the % of this value on the ship at the time - so a Titan can pretty much never DD a ship below say, 50-70% total HP (i.e. successive DD's do less and less damage).

RESULT: Titans in laggy situations do not score cheap kills. Titans REQUIRE support to get kills. Titans become a big capital fleet asset, but also useful against sub-capital fleets. MULITPLE Titans become a liability in groups of more then 2 or so since their main weapon is ineffective (they can DD all day and the enemy won't be effected).

CLOSING NOTES: 33% was picked so a ships tankable hitpoints get removed - possibly scripts for taking it from armor or shields first would be in order.

REALISM has nothing to do with this - it's purely a game decision and I'm sure we can imagine some reason there weapon would work this way (nanite storm, fuses armor plates, adaptive repairs whatever).

Posted - 2008.03.31 09:16:00 - [43]

 

I think you guys are joking. Supercaps isnt "going to" destroy 0.0, they already have. Its been supercaps online for months now. Small gang pvp has been impossible for a very long time. Ive left 0.0 after 2.5 years to live in empire and soon I might leave the game all toghether. You all come up with highly theorethical ways to do pvp against supercaps, and in the end none of it work outside EFT and inside TQ. Things like lag, a key character warping to the wrong gate, most people in the fleet not having enough isk to officer fit their pvp ships etc are all realities that you should know of if you have ever done pvp.

Posted - 2008.03.31 10:18:00 - [45]

 

Quote:

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But considering the cost of a Titan, if a DD only did 33% damage to all ships, I'd probably gang mod it up and leave it at a POS. I might bump it up closer to 50% so they get used more.

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Only means it takes 2-3 times more titans than before. So yeas it will help but the fundamental problem, dd scaling remains.

Posted - 2008.03.31 11:16:00 - [47]

 

Edited by: 0mega on 31/03/2008 11:26:19
I think it would offer more options if doomsdays in their current form were replaced with racial special abilities, each affecting the whole grid.

Avatars would set off a neutralizing burst performing a large cap drain on all ships in range. Very useful to stop BS fleets using their weapons or dreadnoughts from tanking. Making this based on current cap percentage would stacking-nerf it from the start.

Leviathans would have a high-powered ECM pulse breaking all locks. Great for protecting capital fleets from sub-capitals.

Ragnaroks would set off a webifying effect slowing all ships on the grid for X seconds. Enemy tacklers become less effective and drones are pinned down.

An the Erebus could perform a warp-scrambling effect keeping all nearby ships pinned for 30-60 seconds. Great for ambushes and mopping up a hostile fleet.

Scripts could also allow alternative doomsday, akin to the mothership remote ecm burst. Damaging doomsdays would require a lock on a target and then only hit those within a short radius around it. Now titans that want to counter 'blobs' can't do it by sitting cloaked on a gate and hitting the doomsday button with no chance for the enemy to react.

This now encourages tactical use of different racial titans, and means they support a fleet rather than replace one. Doomsdays would no longer stack, nor be capable of wiping out a fleet with the push of a button. Laggy battles would result in a fairer result as both sides become equally affected. Titan pilots will still have their doomsday skills and modules and be able to contribute heavily to a battle, they just won't decide it.

edit: damn you Nomore for writing the same post as me at the same time

Posted - 2008.03.31 11:51:00 - [49]

 

Originally by: Kerkar

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Titans are fine please leave them like this. Also the OP says "No subcapital can tank more than two doomsdays" which im gonna just say is "*******s". Been hit with Doomsdays on Sisi when in a carrier and its like *oh, i lost a little shield*.

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Carriers aren't sub-capitals.

Posted - 2008.03.31 12:10:00 - [51]

 

I like the racial non HP damage DD ideas, still an incredible weapon without just making things go pop.

Alot of people seem to be missing the anti DD argument, a DD alone is not particulary overpowered IMO, and thats not the point of the argument against, the point is how common they're becoming. 5, 6, 7 or more titans with DD's on grid is undefeatable, no question about it. It's not so mnuch the issue of today, but the issue for the future, What about another years time? When the big alliances can field 15 or 20 on a grid? It will happen, how many DD's to pop a carrier? I think the number is 25, it has been worked out.

People thought battleships wouldn't be that common, people thought carriers wouldn't be that common, same for motherships, hell, just look at how common motherships have become, titans will become much more common, I think there's around 50 in game now, certainly 40+, how will you attack systems defended by 20 titans?

Adapt or die is the common phrase I believe, there is no adapt to that, there is only die.

Posted - 2008.03.31 13:20:00 - [53]

 

Originally by: Delezar

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Originally by: Yuki Nagato

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Originally by: LukeDS

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there are ways to kill them

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NO, THERE ISN'T.

Stop propagating this thought-terminating cliche. It is impossible. Here, let me give you a scenario:

Eight Titans on a grid. 3x Avatar, 3x Ragnarok, 2x Erebus. Any area within 250km of the Titan blob is a deadzone. You warp in your battleships -> double doomsday -> all battleships are dead. Then they doomsday again, and kill the pods. Now your entire fleet is without ships and in a station. If they happen to have a jump bridge or a Titan then they might be able to get back in. You reform your fleet which takes a while. All doomsdays reset and they have eight again.

You warp in heavy dictors -> the carriers/motherships escorting the Titans blow them away.

You warp in frigates with fighters -> they get smartbombed or doomsdayed.

You warp in caps -> they warp in battleships -> you warp in battleships -> they warp their support out -> you get doomsdayed -> they warp back in -> your capitals get destroyed.

Nothing can counter multiple doomsdays. Battleships cannot be "tanked" for more than two unless you use officer gear, rigs and expensive implants, and even then they can just fire five which is the max amount of HP a battleship can be theoretically tanked at with officer gear, overheated with T2 rigs, a full Slave set and a mindlinked Damnation in gang.

Subcapitals have no place in 0.0 warfare now, except as cannon fodder to cynosural jammer towers as they assault towers guarded eight invulnerable Titans with absolutely no friendly capital support.

The game is BROKEN.

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If that is all you can come up with, you deserve to lose. Do you really expect to win against titans with a tactic that is exactly the tactic they are set up to beat?
Lack of imagination and tactics is not a flaw of the game.

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There is no other possible tactic for engaging Titans. He listed everything there is.

Well, other than breaking into the Titan pilot's house and smashing his computer.

Or do you follow the same school of thought as that idiot ISD guy who suggested nano dreads?

Posted - 2008.03.31 13:56:00 - [55]

 

Edited by: maralt on 31/03/2008 14:09:58

Originally by: Yuki Nagato

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Give me a heavy interdictor that can tank five doomsdays in rapid succession. No officer mods.

The issue is that support fleets are rendered USELESS. Do you not see an issue with the fact that a guy flying a battleship has to warp in and wait to get quad-doomsdayed, and that's his ONLY role under the current mechanics?

You're a terrible troll.

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All you are looking for is a way to kill titans easily and without taking losses and that is just not realistic tbh. There is nothing stopping you from having other tacklers on grid but cloaked up out of range of the DDD ready to warp in if one of you tacklers gets popped by it, so multiple titans are not untacklable at all.

Your capitals can easily tank those DDD and they are the real threat to the titan while your support fleet can also position its self outside the DDD range but inside the range of other ships they can shoot at. You just do not want to risk losing your capitals if you screw things up in planning the assault.

All you are doing is looking for a nerf so a low sp and ingame skilless blob can kill titans instead of correctly positioning 230+ ranged snipers, dreads and carriers plus the rest of your your forces correctly.

Go back to empire or pvp school, nerfs are not needed just ability and that is something GOONS have always lacked.

Posted - 2008.03.31 14:36:00 - [57]

 

Edited by: Kerfira on 31/03/2008 14:41:13

Originally by: Yuki Nagato

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Originally by: RogueWing

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Can't pin down a Titan with a HID??????

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Give me a heavy interdictor that can tank five doomsdays in rapid succession. No officer mods.

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You do know that there's no rule against sending in more HIC's after the first 4 DD's has gone off??

Another thread...

Posted - 2008.03.31 14:46:00 - [59]

 

Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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Its not like the have 8 titans in every system. Why not just take over every system except the one with the titans? Just spread out a bit and bleed them?

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Not that easy when the defender has a jumpbridge system that allows them to move to any other station system in 1-3 jumps when attacking fleets have to go much further.