| Author |
Topic |
umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Fnck the blob. |
Posted - 2008.02.06 22:41:00 - [ 91]
 Originally by: SKINK0428
I am a 2.6mill skill point player I have resided in 0.0 for the last month, yes I have had losses, but I have had kills, I make a load of isk, I am very usefull in pvp I am mainly a tackler till my skill points increase but do fly my hurricane in pvp also, I have never lost a ship pvping in 0.0, all my losses are traveling to and fro from empire to 0.0 so now I dnt I just buy stuff in 0.0 at inflated price but no risk or jumpclone out to get ships books etc. My corp is only 3 months old, we have a pos up in 0.0 and mine refine rat pvp and scan out anomolies. And hay guess what we are surviving very nicely at the moment, I think the main problem is the big misconception hanging over 0.0 that couses relative noobs to stay out, I find it much safer in 0.0 than low sec.
Good for you, seriously
ISD: Interview this guy, im sure he has storys that are interesting and inspiring to those who dream of going to 0.0.
People say the rewards of 0.0/lowsec need to be worth the risk but the real rewards are stories, friends, memories etc, thats what it's about. |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2008.02.06 22:45:00 - [ 92]
Originally by: umop 3pisdn
Good for you, seriously
ISD: Interview this guy, im sure he has storys that are interesting and inspiring to those who dream of going to 0.0.
People say the rewards of 0.0/lowsec need to be worth the risk but the real rewards are stories, friends, memories etc, thats what it's about.
All ISD do it get in the way of large fleet battles and report on useless stuff so yea they might talk about that kinda crap. getting into 0.0 isn't much work if you stay in npc 0.0 and are willing to fight anything and everything but you will run out of money. Its the whole staying in 0.0 that is hard. |
umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Fnck the blob. |
Posted - 2008.02.06 22:53:00 - [ 93]
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
All ISD do it get in the way of large fleet battles and report on useless stuff so yea they might talk about that kinda crap.
getting into 0.0 isn't much work if you stay in npc 0.0 and are willing to fight anything and everything but you will run out of money. Its the whole staying in 0.0 that is hard.
Yes i know, "Hi Guys me and my assosciates here heard that bob actually won something today due to some weird space phenomenon that our logs dont show, we're here to collect goon tears can we plz interview you when you guys finally load oh you're busy ok oh god please stop spamming in local..." |
Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
G00DFELLAS |
Posted - 2008.02.06 22:53:00 - [ 94]
you are right!
ccp boost 0.0 rewards by 10 000%so its worth for the average joe to die over and over again! |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2008.02.06 22:57:00 - [ 95]
Originally by: umop 3pisdn
Originally by: Aprudena Gist
All ISD do it get in the way of large fleet battles and report on useless stuff so yea they might talk about that kinda crap.
getting into 0.0 isn't much work if you stay in npc 0.0 and are willing to fight anything and everything but you will run out of money. Its the whole staying in 0.0 that is hard.
Yes i know, "Hi Guys me and my assosciates here heard that bob actually won something today due to some weird space phenomenon that our logs dont show, we're here to collect goon tears can we plz interview you when you guys finally load oh you're busy ok oh god please stop spamming in local..."
its awfully annoying when they sit on the battle-grid in their invincible ships and get called primaries and we can't blow them up. |
Ethen Bejorn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated |
Posted - 2008.02.06 23:21:00 - [ 96]
If CCP made leaving out of a POS more like having a mini station more people would have them up in 0.0 The fact that a POS refinery has a 75% max refine and takes 3 hours to refine one ore type is insane. Let alone that all storage is communal and nothing is safe nor secure to general corp membership. They should also add more routes to 0.0 so there are less gate camps for gangs to blob and make unpassble by smaller and younger corporations. |
Kolnaz Eriga
Winds of Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.02.06 23:46:00 - [ 97]
0.0 security space = Social Darwinism at its "finest"
Harsh yes but...isen´t that the point with 0.0?
just a thought |
Igwee |
Posted - 2008.02.06 23:53:00 - [ 98]
Edited by: Igwee on 06/02/2008 23:53:14
This is very interesting, it's similiar in some ways to the 'casual vs hardcore' debate i've seen in other MMO's, especially WoW.
To me, empire space is perfect for now as a previous poster posted quite accurately, it allows people like me (who are still fairly new) that have a VERY low skill lvl (2.1M SP and barely able to handle basic ships/missions due to still learning how to play EVE), aren't part of a big corp, to learn the basics, mining, skills, fittings, the HUGE variety of different setups, this whole trading thing and so forth.
EVE has a huge learning curve, I've been playing it for months and learn something new every time I log on.
I've found that MMO'ers tend to fall into a few seperate categories:
A) The Casuals
These are (like me) people who log on every now and then, mine stuff, make stuff, potter about on missions and aren't really fussed with PVP all that much, couldn't give a dam about 0.0 and avoid anything less than 0.5. The nice thing about EVE is that you can still learn skills even when logged off.
May be into a bit of PVP here and there, but generally is quite happy to just muck about and be left along, often a loner or with a small band of friends, may even have a small corp and some basic goals that they're working towards at their own pace.
Make no mistake, some of the BEST MMO'ers are often casual, they can and are of often surprisingly good at what they do, but they're just as happy to play 4 or 5 hours a week or disapear for months at a time and pick up where they left off.
B) The Hard-Core
These are people on a mission! Whether it be mastering the art of trading, finding those hard to get plans, working on super hard missions, learning how to drive the big stuff, run fleets, run corps or go prospecting for rare or or.. just like being really good at blowing stuff up.
They'll play a LOT, they'll play HARD and will often associate/group with similiar minded people to achieve big goals (POS's, alliances and so forth), they enjoy the cut and thrust of taking on other players and beating them, or achieving hard to achieve goals, the WoW equivelant are the heavy PVP'ers and end-game raiders.
To me, the casuals will probably stay in empire (0.5) or higher for longer, simply because the 0.0 area is more hard-core and requires a lot more commitment, but has more rewards too.
If you find a lot of newer people are casuals, then you'll probably find we'll stay in empire space for a long time, or even forever. It's not a case of one being better than the other, it's just a case of different people doing different things :)
Empre space = casual friendly
0.0/low sec space = more hard-core
Anyway, after a cpl of months that's how I see it, it may be wrong. One day i will probably muck around in low/0.0 sec space, but not till i've learned a lot more about how EVE works.
Dont' worry, more people will end up in 0.0, it may just take a while for us newbies to get comfortable with how it all works. |
Onchas Erivvia
The Ankou
Raiden. |
Posted - 2008.02.07 00:06:00 - [ 99]
Originally by: Anell
The whole point of this thread (a point most of you refuse to address) is disparity in fighting ability between characters. This disparity is 80% skill point based and 20% actual experience based.
Another way of making this point is that Eve is really a template game, rather than true PvP. I agree. I completely agree. Most people who consider this honest to good think that Eve is anything but PvP-lite. Eve, however, is more a knowledge game. Yes, an actual PvP engagement is pretty fast and you don't have much time in the heat of the moment, but it's still more about knowing the ships, knowing their likely set-ups, understanding your own ships and to be prepared for a few basic eventualities. I would say it's closer to 50-50, not 80-20. A newer, lower skill point player just can't impose themselves into as many situations. Quote:
Some of you will dispute this but the fact is that if you have an incredible amount of actual experience but lack the sp to even equip T2 weapons/ships then you are going to lose fights more often then if the opposite were true.
They'll dispute it because you're wrong. Quote:
Plus experience in fights comes rather quickly in comparison to sp which will literally take months to get a basic setup.
Yup. But because your previous assertion you're wrong it's merely a trivial observation. Quote:
The new characters run out into low sec (most don't even make it to 0.0) and get blown up right away by someone in a bigger ship or one with bigger weapons.
That happens pretty regularly to those of us with 30mil plus SP too if we don't do basic things like scout -- and then it's our 900k scouts that get ganked. Quote:
So what is the solution? The solution is to make fights with newer players feel less like a gank and more like a battle. That can not be done so long as new players don't have a chance of hurting someone with high sp in a properly fitted ship.
You know, when I first got out to 0.0 space two years ago I couldn't afford to lose much. I mined and used corp blue-prints to build completely tech1 fitted Caracals. I would go out in my Caracal during fleet fights and stick beside the Battleships. I'd shoot the battleship targets if I could hit them, and hit other cruiser closer if I could. I ended up with a stupid-high K/D ratio and I often saw myself on the top 1/3 of the KM. A little completely tech1 fitted Caracal. Quote:
I think that if a fleet of 20 1 month old characters flying cruisers fought a fleet of 10 high sp characters flying HACs it should be even money whether they win or lose. Right now its not.
It's cute that you think it should be that way, but so what? You're trying to hold the game mechanics accountable to your perception of how the game should be? Those 10 Hacs cost 10x the amount of the tech1 ships. The average skill point level is, what, 12 million? Oh, and I'd also point out that it will depend on the HAC and the ships you're bringing and how they're fit. 10 Munnins would get their asses kicked by 20 Thoraxes. Quote:
Right now the new characters will be lucky to kill even one of the opposing side. And that I believe is why you don't see a lot of people moving out to 0.0.
Your proposition is wrong, so is your conclusion. Quote:
But you will never see large groups of new characters moving out. And many admitted the reason why, they just can't exist in 0.0 without that sheltering arm of an established and experience corp.
I'll tell you the secret. The great big secret as to why people don't move out to 0.0 space. Are ready? They don't want to lose ships. That's it. That's all there is to it. People who move out to 0.0 space are (generally) prepared to accept that they're going to lose a tonne of ships. People who are scared of 0.0 space don't want to lose their ships and take the isk penalty that goes with it. |
Dzajic
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 00:33:00 - [ 100]
Most try to go, get very :( and go back to Empire or devote them selves to low sec adventuring.
Why?
Well, some time ago, a friend of mine was a member in a PvP corp in a PvP alliance. And they got to war with certain alliance and got marching orders to a certain region. Requested ships list practically demanded you bring HAC, CS, HICtor, Recon, and unlimited number of fleet BSes and ceptors... To train all that you need time period rather longer than average total play time (start to quit and abandoning account)
By the time I train all that and hope to join, they'll most likely be demanding all players to have a Dread and Carrier pilots with cyno alts... Why invest all the time and money so I finaly can join a alliance and "enjoy" engaging nano gangs, and even better, glorious fleet fights with 30 minute lag and a torrent of synch errors and disconects... and said fleet fights tend to last hours upon hours nowadays. |
Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative. |
Posted - 2008.02.07 00:41:00 - [ 101]
"I'll tell you the secret. The great big secret as to why people don't move out to 0.0 space.
Are ready?
They don't want to lose ships.
That's it.
That's all there is to it.
People who move out to 0.0 space are (generally) prepared to accept that they're going to lose a tonne of ships.
People who are scared of 0.0 space don't want to lose their ships and take the isk penalty that goes with it."
100% truth here. And I was EXACTLY like this when I nerved myself up to head into 0.0
After 2 months of missoning, I couldn't get my head round the idea that in any given fight, I was as likely as not to lose my ship. I still do lose lots of ships because I'm avergae at best when it comes to PvP but now I don't care. |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 00:42:00 - [ 102]
Originally by: Dzajic
Most try to go, get very :( and go back to Empire or devote them selves to low sec adventuring.
Why?
Well, some time ago, a friend of mine was a member in a PvP corp in a PvP alliance. And they got to war with certain alliance and got marching orders to a certain region. Requested ships list practically demanded you bring HAC, CS, HICtor, Recon, and unlimited number of fleet BSes and ceptors... To train all that you need time period rather longer than average total play time (start to quit and abandoning account)
By the time I train all that and hope to join, they'll most likely be demanding all players to have a Dread and Carrier pilots with cyno alts... Why invest all the time and money so I finaly can join a alliance and "enjoy" engaging nano gangs, and even better, glorious fleet fights with 30 minute lag and a torrent of synch errors and disconects... and said fleet fights tend to last hours upon hours nowadays.
What crappy alliance was this? |
Sicariidae
Caldari
Prophets Of a Damned Universe
Finis Terrae |
Posted - 2008.02.07 00:59:00 - [ 103]
The OP is wrong on so many account I can't even begin to rebut them. The biggest reason don't move to 0.0 is FEAR OF LOSS!
Goto the recruitment boards they are SPAMMED constantly with corps or alliances looking for players to move out and join them.
Seriously have you lived in 0.0 for any length of time so you can share a perspective thats seen both sides of the fence? |
Knight Storm
Caldari
Rock Grinders
DEM0N HUNTERS |
Posted - 2008.02.07 03:08:00 - [ 104]
Edited by: Knight Storm on 07/02/2008 03:09:44This is being over thought imo. Personally I fly what ever I can afford to loose. Go out do some pew pew, win or loose don’t really care. The bring friends mentality is a big factor. Many just don’t have the time, or care to brown nose their way to enter 0.0. Results of going to 0.0 often end in a blob affect when you get to the very few entrances available to 0.0. The access politics game is really unnecessary. Remove that and you’ll see numbers moving in and out, if bottle neck routes are removed. The amount of time it takes to hide, when a group of Red/Neutrals are in local always offset what I could make in empire by the time the day is over. For me the only PVP I enjoy is one vs. one or arranged fair group battles. Heck even being out numbered some times has it's moments. But being the ganker or the Ganke 15 vs. 1 is what I typically find in 0.0. That’s not PVP to me so I really have no reason to go. To get the kind of PVP I want requires some times weeks of hunting low sec (boring) or arranging corp. fights (which is great fun). The PVP system here isn’t always about the money. It’s the large ego of people not wanting to loose. Starting out sure money is an issue, a month later if you cry about loosing it fly something smaller. What we really need to reamp the jump clones to include “a pair”. Perhaps then one wouldn’t need a fleet to protect ego Edit: Did I say ego?  |
Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing |
Posted - 2008.02.07 03:41:00 - [ 105]
Originally by: Knight Storm
Edited by: Knight Storm on 06/02/2008 04:21:52
Two really simple reasons.
1.Very few routes in to 0.0, all of which have at least 15 people waiting for you on the other side. With a warp bubble.
Not quite true. Most regions have at least three entry points, and gatecamps are like thunderstorms. Wait a few hours, and they pass. Or you can tough them out, there are ways. Quote:
2.You don’t have to kiss anyone’s ass to enter any system in empire.
As much as 0.0 powers like to talk crap about NAPs, the art of diplomacy gets as much done out there as a fleet of dreadnaughts, sometimes. Quote:
If I had routes to go rat in 0.0 over low sec, the question would be then, why doesn't anyone enter low sec anymore.
Low sec, to a 0.0 pilot, is like the proverbial road which the chicken had to cross. There's no reason for it to be there, but it is an obstacle that simply must be dealt with from time to time. Quote:
EDIT:
Or, as another example. On my other Char while in 0.0. Start ratting, fleet hops in, warp then cloak or jump safe spots as they try to probe you out. Ok fleet is gone, resume. Rinse repeat so much its pointless being there. As everyone’s egos are so big they bring at least five others with them to protect it.
Been there, done that. Spent the better part of an hour cloaked in a safe spot while a GoonSwarm crew passed through. Still made more in the two hours I had clear space than I would all night running missions. Quote:
Nah I’d rather just mission make more isk, less hassle. Then play my alt in RedvsBlue and actually get 1 on 1, best of all don’t have to hunt in low sec for a week or too to find it! Or face any 15 man bubble camp, because that’s “pvp”. Good luck with that .
Whatever works for you. |
Illiya
GoonFleet |
Posted - 2008.02.07 05:18:00 - [ 106]
I've said it before, but the problem isn't 0.0. It's lowsec. You would think the progression would be empire -> lowsec -> 0.0, but really, lowsec is the worst, because there risk:reward ratio is way absurdly off. In 0.0, alliances can, and do enforce their own rules, and protect their own space. Low sec is just a useless wild west wasteland. which leads new players to believe 0.0 is worse.
I feel safer in most parts of 0.0 than I do in empire. |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2008.02.07 05:29:00 - [ 107]
Originally by: Illiya
I've said it before, but the problem isn't 0.0. It's lowsec. You would think the progression would be empire -> lowsec -> 0.0, but really, lowsec is the worst, because there risk:reward ratio is way absurdly off. In 0.0, alliances can, and do enforce their own rules, and protect their own space. Low sec is just a useless wild west wasteland. which leads new players to believe 0.0 is worse.
I feel safer in most parts of 0.0 than I do in empire.
empire is a scary place for us only because we have so many war-decs and there are people other then us who actually use our space rather then out in 0.0 where if people poke their heads into your space you can just blast their heads off cause you dont like the cut of their jib. i find 0.0 very safe in fact i'm sitting in a hostile system currently and have been doing so for hours in end but its during war so that complicated things. if you are willing to risk your ships ( really start out with cheap crappy t1 ships no more then 5-8 mill a ship) then you can learn to pvp. |
Lindsay Fox
Blue Midget Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 05:48:00 - [ 108]
Actually the 'fear of losing ships' thing is true, but I didn't realise it until I got my brother to play.
While we were still empiring and had never visited 0.0, I wondered how the hell he had never lost a ship and I lost one every couple of days. I eventually realised that he saw losing his ship as a *total disaster*, whereas I just didn't care apart from the few hours it would take to grind back enough money to replace it.
The first time he tried a mission in lowsec he got ganked by pirates who probed him out. Then they ganked him again when he went back for his wreck. He quit the same day.
I guess it's just a totally different mindset. To me, losing a ship for a new reason was just an indication that I was learning new stuff and getting better. Losing a ship to a reason I had previously learned was just me being stupid. To him, losing a ship of any kind for any reason was a calamity.
I had never even realised that people play like that. I think this is a big part of the problem, half of eve is like me, and the other half is like my brother, and both sides cannot empathise with the other *at all*
I had already ventured into 0.0 a week or two before he quit, and I had died a lot but was having much more fun than I had before. And yet the more fun I seemed to be having, the less he seemed to want to join me. I think it was just because he didn't want to die.
I just can't get my head around it to be honest.
|
ZerKar
Caldari
Zen'Tar
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 05:49:00 - [ 109]
I have 0 interest in Low Sec or Null Sec and not just for the reasons you mention.
What is in Low Sec that I should give a damn about?... .... ... That is what I thought, NOTHING. There is NOTHING for me to care about in Low Sec. If I go there I get gate ****d just like everyone else unless I go to super backwater locations and even then it is to do...What? Kill Low Sec Rats? Do not make me laugh, I can get far better money from LvL 4 Missions and have fun not having to worry about some jerk who feels the need to Pod anything that moves.
How about 0.0, what is in 0.0 that I should give a Damn about? Well let's see, there are some potent rats now and then...There is rare ore (LOLZ)...Now if I want to make anything useful of those I have to get back to Empire with them (Gate ****) or I have to live on 0.0. To do the latter requires I be part of a big blood thirsty alliance or huge Corp who controls that area. Quite frankly, I do not find Blob Wars that exciting and if I want to play an RTS there are MANY better RTS's out there than EVE.
(And yes, I have BEEN to both Low and Null Sec and I have yet to be killed there.)
Now, with that said, would I want to change anything about Low or Null sec? Nope. I could care less what happens in Low or Null sec. If the people who live and play there want it altered to better suit them, then fine, listen to their whines maybe, but I do not care. As far as I am concerned Low and Null are a different part of EVE for a completely different player type and I am just glad that they exist to fulfill the need of those players.
I for one play to have some Fun. I do not pay CCP to be Annihilated without a Chance of a reasonable fight, and so being intelligent I stay out of those battles and IN empire. CCP has done me this WONDERFUL favor of clearly labeling and distinguishing the Safety Zones and I am greatful for that and would like it to remain that way.
I also do not believe that changing the skill system would make more people go into Low or Null because most who do not go there now avoid it because they do not really like PvP. Either they are simply Killers who like to prey on very weak opponents and do not want the risk of losing anything, AKA Carebear Pirate Wannabes, or they are like me and enjoy making progress more than gambling their assets on the roll of a die. The ones who go for the hardcore PvP death trap represented by these areas are thrill seekers who need that extra adrenaline rush to keep them happy and nerfing the skills as you suggest would only make their enjoyment dwindle a bit. No longer could they take their ship into the jaws of adversaries they KNOW should annihilate them and maybe by some bit of luck and savy escape by the skin of their teeth...or die trying but maybe still giving one of them a good smack before they go. |
Lindsay Fox
Blue Midget Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 06:18:00 - [ 110]
Originally by: ZerKar
I have 0 interest in Low Sec or Null Sec and not just for the reasons you mention.
Hmm you sound very defensive, I'm not sure why, but your statement that there's nothing in 0.0 worth anything is ridiculous. Just take ratting, for example. If you pay attention to the 'true security' of systems, and spend a bit of time finding one that isn't on the beaten path, you will be able to rat for hours without getting hassled. You will get dozens of triple-BS spawns where the rats are worth up to 1.9m individually. Every so often you will get a faction or officer spawn which can drop loot worth hundreds of millions or even billions. And every single rat in 0.0 drops a full can, and you can obviously salvage them too. In terms of ISK/hour, ratting in a decent 0.0 system will beat mission running by a factor of 4, and sometimes by much, much more. The fact that you mention that you haven't been killed yet in 0.0 indicates you are of the 'death is a disaster' mindset. Just lose that and you may see things differently. We have got many players in our corp who detest PvP and are pure carebears. But they love 0.0 too. There's plenty of reasons to go there. |
ZerKar
Caldari
Zen'Tar
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 06:42:00 - [ 111]
Edited by: ZerKar on 07/02/2008 06:43:42 Originally by: Lindsay Fox
Originally by: ZerKar
I have 0 interest in Low Sec or Null Sec and not just for the reasons you mention.
Hmm you sound very defensive, I'm not sure why, but your statement that there's nothing in 0.0 worth anything is ridiculous. Just take ratting, for example.
If you pay attention to the 'true security' of systems, and spend a bit of time finding one that isn't on the beaten path, you will be able to rat for hours without getting hassled. You will get dozens of triple-BS spawns where the rats are worth up to 1.9m individually. Every so often you will get a faction or officer spawn which can drop loot worth hundreds of millions or even billions.
And every single rat in 0.0 drops a full can, and you can obviously salvage them too.
In terms of ISK/hour, ratting in a decent 0.0 system will beat mission running by a factor of 4, and sometimes by much, much more.
The fact that you mention that you haven't been killed yet in 0.0 indicates you are of the 'death is a disaster' mindset. Just lose that and you may see things differently.
We have got many players in our corp who detest PvP and are pure carebears. But they love 0.0 too. There's plenty of reasons to go there.
Reading comprehension FTW my friend. I mentioned that the Rats are very Juicey in 0.0. However getting that money from 0.0 to Highsec is increadibly dangerous and the hassel involved is not worth my effort or time. Now if I LIVED in 0.0 (which I also mention being a way to go) then it would be fine, but I do not have a Huge Corp or a big Conglomorant Alliance to stave off the Big Boys when they show up to kick our butts back to High Sec because they are bored and want some new territory. The statement you quoted also has one other problem with your attempt then to defend your point of view which is that I said " I have 0 interest in Low Sec or Null Sec and not just for the reasons you mentioned.". Therefore, that is MY opinion, which cannot be refuted, as it is an Opinion. As for Death is a Disaster, it IS. It is a failure of strategy in my mind and being a bit of a perfectionist I will not tollerate my failings. I find no joy in being foolish enough to get myself killed and unlike many pilots out there if I do die I would blame myself first and foremost because there is always a way I could have prevented that unneeded loss. Undoubtedly, I am not the only one who feels this way, though more just do not like seeing a higher Death to Kill ratio on Kill Boards which is slightly different. |
Xykanth Roldeir |
Posted - 2008.02.07 06:54:00 - [ 112]
Why people don't go to 0.0. Because it's dangerous and you really have to pay attention.
It seems obvious to me that most people prefer a more casual game than 0.0 requires. Just look at the number of people who play WoW instead of Eve. Most people are carebears not gankers. |
Lindsay Fox
Blue Midget Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 07:31:00 - [ 113]
Originally by: ZerKar
...Juicey...increadibly...hassel...Conglomorant...tollerate ..
Well clearly you aren't *that* much of a perfectionist. There's a big difference between perfectionism and failure avoidance. Failure is an opportunity to learn, it should be embraced. Losing ships while in 0.0 is not a loss, it is more than compensated for by the increased income you can make there. After the first few weeks you won't die much anyway, as long as you learn from your mistakes. Either way, my point was mainly for others who may have read your opinion that there's nothing worthwhile in 0.0 and believed it. And to that I might add that you do NOT need a big corp or alliance to live in 0.0. Hell, if you want to, go and live in providence, it's at least as safe as empire, even if it is a bit dull. |
Pantaloon McPants |
Posted - 2008.02.07 08:51:00 - [ 114]
Ahh a wonderful day, just brewed a coffee and fired up eve, life in 0.0, lets see what wonders are in store for us today! ..
day 1> ok, so today i have to log in and rep services for 15hrs because a huge blob came and hurts them.
day 2> wow, now we have to rep pos mods for 15hrs
day 3> ok now we have to mine for those 3000 pos towers and jump arrays
day 4> ok, so today my ratting ship got totaly wtfpwned.
day 5> waiting on a new ratting ship to get built/delivered - spin pod
day 6> still waiting
day 7> hmm might go to empire then and do missions, better then doing nothing
day 8> ive been ordered to come back and defend our space from some idiots
day 9> Free ship from corp to pvp - nice, local rises to 300+, cant move so i die.
day 10> wow im so bored, might try flying a ship down,3hrs to get there, die on way back
day 11> mining op? you kidding me. rest of day spent waiting for pvp gang of some kind
day 12> pos & services down today, we start repping. i love this game
day 13> **** this im going back to empire
sound familiar? i just realized one day that i dont have the time to dedicate to 0.0 life, maybe its just the corps ive been in down there but god dam when a game feels like a 2nd job you really need to re-asses your station in life.
Maybe make the clone jumps to empire activate every few hours or so to help elleviate the ****ing boredom that can be 0.0. Noone enjoys being stuck in a station because your camped by a huge blob and not being able to clone jump out to do something more fun, so you sit there spinning your ship.
Each to there own, im done with 0.0 bull**** life.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate |
Posted - 2008.02.07 09:51:00 - [ 115]
Originally by: Malcanis
"I'll tell you the secret. The great big secret as to why people don't move out to 0.0 space.
Are ready?
They don't want to lose ships.
In my case, you're partly correct, and partly incorrect. I don't mind loosing a ship if it's fun fight. Walking into a gate camp with zero chance of doing anything about it is just not fun. So poke the map, fly the alt, wait for people to form a gang ... why bother when I can go be entertained with much less effort. It's not PVP, it's player versus gank mechanics, that's really not much fun for most people. Anyone who watched the evolution of multiplayer FPS games knows the drill: the early incarnation had static spawn points and twinks would sit there with a rocket launcher and camp them, woo, that was fun for the camper, but not much fun until it was your turn to be the camper. Then the games evolved, spawn points became dynamic, or players that spawned became invulnerable or invisible for a time. Camping gates/stations is the same thing as camping spawn points in an multiplayer FPS. Isn't it about time Eve graduate from 1993? |
Kestrix |
Posted - 2008.02.07 09:55:00 - [ 116]
Edited by: Kestrix on 07/02/2008 09:56:54
IMO people are not moving to 0.0 because most of it does not have the infrastructure to support them. The only people who can live out there are the alliances that own the outposts and POS and jumpbridges ect or the corps that rent space from them. Which means you have to get your ship/ships into 0.0 survive for a period of time whilst you rat/mine and then get them out again. I can do this but it's easyier just to make my isk in Empire where I have everything I need at hand and I'm not been hunted 23/7. |
La Tortura
Sebiestor Tribe
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 11:49:00 - [ 117]
Originally by: Kestrix
Edited by: Kestrix on 07/02/2008 09:56:54
IMO people are not moving to 0.0 because most of it does not have the infrastructure to support them. The only people who can live out there are the alliances that own the outposts and POS and jumpbridges ect or the corps that rent space from them. Which means you have to get your ship/ships into 0.0 survive for a period of time whilst you rat/mine and then get them out again.
Wrong. Well, wrong at least for NPC zero-zeroes. My quite small corp lives in a such region, having everyone (quite a few corps and alliances with way more skillpoints and resources than we have) in 25 jumps around us with negative or neutral standings and we survive just fine. Sometimes we kill them, sometimes we are killed, so it goes. We kill more tho ;) It is paradoxically, but it is somewhat easier for a small corp to live in 0.0 than for a large alliance, as the small corp just has nothing to lose. Quote:
I can do this but it's easyier just to make my isk in Empire where I have everything I need at hand and I'm not been hunted 23/7.
It's really depends on how you make your isks though. If you're trader, than yes, you get isks in empire and spend it in 0.0. If you rat/missionrun, 0.0, even hostile, might be more profitable with right ships, fittings, a few friends and, the most important, knowledge of game mechanics. |
Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative. |
Posted - 2008.02.07 13:34:00 - [ 118]
Originally by: Lindsay Fox
Actually the 'fear of losing ships' thing is true, but I didn't realise it until I got my brother to play.
While we were still empiring and had never visited 0.0, I wondered how the hell he had never lost a ship and I lost one every couple of days. I eventually realised that he saw losing his ship as a *total disaster*, whereas I just didn't care apart from the few hours it would take to grind back enough money to replace it.
The first time he tried a mission in lowsec he got ganked by pirates who probed him out. Then they ganked him again when he went back for his wreck. He quit the same day.
I guess it's just a totally different mindset. To me, losing a ship for a new reason was just an indication that I was learning new stuff and getting better. Losing a ship to a reason I had previously learned was just me being stupid. To him, losing a ship of any kind for any reason was a calamity.
I had never even realised that people play like that. I think this is a big part of the problem, half of eve is like me, and the other half is like my brother, and both sides cannot empathise with the other *at all*
I had already ventured into 0.0 a week or two before he quit, and I had died a lot but was having much more fun than I had before. And yet the more fun I seemed to be having, the less he seemed to want to join me. I think it was just because he didn't want to die.
I just can't get my head around it to be honest.
I think this is because in most PC games, you never lose. Not really. You're the lone solo hero saviour, and you get save/reload points too. A typical encounter is you vs 5-500 opponents, and you win easily. After a few thousand hours of this, you come to think that this state of affairs is both normal and right. Then you come to EvE. You are not a hero, and are fantastically unlikely to ever become one. You're not even likely to be able to defeat a single opponent, never mind 5 or 500. In short: EvE combat is too realistic*. People want fantasy games, not PvP games. They want to be the lone solo saviour hero, and that's just not possible in any faintly balanced MMO PvP game. The nearest we came to it was with the pre-nerf titans and moms. These guys aren't content to be on the winning gang, never mind being in the winning alliance. They want to be the guy who wins, all (or at least most) of the time. But the sad fact is, for every Luke Skywalker, there must be thousands of stormtroopers. And in EvE, the stormtroopers don't always miss the good guy, and they don't always fit armour that is completely ineffective**, and their Heavy Assault ships don't get taken out by stupid furry dudes with sticks. In EvE, Obi-Wan fails to force-jam one of the storm troopers in the first encounter, and Luke gets shot in the face. *Realistic in the sense that it favours numbers, logistics and tactics, and is brutal and quick, not in the physics sense of realistic. **Seriously, why did they even bother with that armour? |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 14:01:00 - [ 119]
Originally by: Anell
I always see these threads with people talking about how you should move out to 0.0 and away from empire. Sorry but its just not going to happen. You will never see a flood of folks leaving empire. Heck your never going to see an appreciable number of folks leaving empire to come out to 0.0.
And the reason is simple. There is a massive amount of disparity in ability and skills in this game and it creates a lot of situations where people with less then 30 million skill points will die over and over in a 1 v 1 situation. And of course as many have reminded us before 0.0 doesn't have 1 v 1 situations so much as it has roaming gangs. So folks less then a few years old can never leave high sec without getting blown up.
At this point some of you are saying "hey wait, I have X points (X being less then 30 million) and I am in low sec and I kick the crud out of everyone I meet." Well my response is good for you! And how often do you die in return? Do you need to be in an alliance/corp with more experienced people to do that? What are all the things you have already that the average joe in high sec doesn't have? My point is that folks are not leaving high sec when all it means is getting blown up. And not just blown up once or twice, but again and again and again until they have no money left to replace ships. Which is what 0.0 currently offers them.
And so this is not just a big whine about other peoples whines I offer you a solution. An impossible solution, by that I mean one that will never be accepted but the only one I know that doesn't involve simply getting rid of high sec. The way to solve all these problems is make the disparity between low skill point people flying T1 and high skill point folks flying big ships or T2 less apparent. This means that it must be possible for low sec characters in 1 v 1 with high sec characters to win. When I say possible I mean make the chances much closer to 50/50 even though the high skill point character has better equipment etc. If you make the game more about the strategy of how you setup your ship vs how it is now (based around how much damage per second you do) then low skill point characters have a chance. If low sec characters could actually win fights in 1 v 1 they are more likely to move out to 0.0 and form their own alliances. Of course this solution will never be accepted because it inherently reduces the value of literally years of skill training, but its the solution I believe that would be needed to create a larger 0.0 populace.
Just some thoughts.
ranting is against the forum rules |
Lindsay Fox
Blue Midget Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 14:04:00 - [ 120]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Camping gates/stations is the same thing as camping spawn points in an multiplayer FPS. Isn't it about time Eve graduate from 1993?
Well, yes and no. The camping scenario may feel the same sometimes for the victim, but it's a totally different thing for the camper. In old skool fps's, a camper was just being a jerk. In a 1v1 it just stopped the other guy having any fun at all. Even worse was when you got some git who had the spawn order memorised and a route set up so he could predict what spawn point you would be at next, and be there before you did. Sometimes you had to applaud the skills involved, but usually it was just lame. In Eve, things are different. In low-sec, campers are pirates. There is a context to what they are doing and in that context it makes sense. This blockading of heavily-trafficked routes was exactly what real pirates did a few hundred years ago, and the solution to it now is the same as it was then - bring friends, be organised, find another route, run the gauntlet at a strategic time, etc. In 0.0, the campers are usually actively defending their territory or actively harassing a defensive enemy. Again, there is context, and what they are doing is what any real-life military force would do in a similar setting. |
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