Posted - 2008.02.04 07:09:00 - [2]

 

I'm intrigued. Will have a better look later but I may well be interested.

Posted - 2008.02.04 07:37:00 - [4]

 

Hypothetically if i had a large wad of cash and didn't want to have to deal in the 0.0 stuff could you accomodate those people putting trust in your hands?

Posted - 2008.02.04 07:47:00 - [6]

 

Originally by: EBANK Ricdic

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Originally by: Shadarle

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Why should we trust you?
Have anyone who will vouch for you?

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Did you read the op?

I have done business with Bunnz and had no problems thus far. I know for a fact that he has net assets to at least a 7b value

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I read it and I saw no reason I should trust him listed. I don't know him at all.

The fact that I will hold assets in 0.0 space is not, to me, a guarantee of anything. If I trusted him then I'd want him to run it all and give me part of the profits, but as it stands I would have to trust there is no more to this than meets the eye.

Posted - 2008.02.04 08:15:00 - [8]

 

Originally by: Shar Tegral

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If you should not like his prices for fuel nor his prices for your product (or even your part of the profits) you are not in a position to re-negotiate. Try to break with him, you could find your pos destroyed and all the modules scooped up.

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Ah, this reminds me of a run in I had with Pepsi. Lending me a Pepsi Machine but I had to buy all the soda from them. At first it was 4 dollars a case, then 5... eventually it was 10 dollars a case. For soda. So I started buying soda at the store and filling it half way with that for 4 bucks a case. Eventually Pepsi wondered why my sales had dropped so much and threatened to blow up my establishment... eventually a fleet of dreads came by and blew everything up and they took all their soda back.

Last time I ever lease a machine from those guys!

Posted - 2008.02.04 08:40:00 - [10]

 

And the trust question raises its head. There is "some" trust required here, as you would be "trusting" me to negotiate agreements to secure the space I am using for the operation, as well as "trusting" me to not just drop a dread fleet on your poses and loot the modules.

This operation goes ahead with or without additional investors. My planned supply line is suitable for supporting 90 towers and staying within bounds of "manageable" for me personally. I have zero desire to erect 90 towers, I am only putting up enough towers, personally, to have a constant, reliable supply of advanced materials for t2/component manufacture.

Given the capacity in my supply lines, I am offering a "different" type of investment, where people with excess money that they have trouble finding a use for, can pay me a very reasonable fee to remove all the headaches from managing and securing reaction POS chains. This investment is NOT for everyone. Its not based on shares. Extending this investment to others allows me to reduce the per tower cost of the space, as well as earn a nice little bonus for doing something that I both enjoy and am good at, being logistics.

At its most basic, this opportunity is more about a POS Fuelling service than anything else. You also get the bonus of secure space and my prior expertise in managing such reaction chains to draw on during setup/deployment. If you decide to "trust" me, you can also take advantage of some of the other services, including a manager who can do the whole thing for you.

My personal towers in this operation will be "managed" on a day to day basis by other players for an agreed % of the profits. My only involvement, long term, will be the long haul logistics of getting goods from deep 0.0 to/from empire and ensuring that the necessary supplies are present to allow towers to stay online.

You shouldn't "trust" me to do anything except deliver your fuel on time and assist you in making money by reacting advanced materials. In return, I will be charging you an agreed margin over jita for supplies.

Obviously those who choose to get involved will be intimately aware of the space in use. These people are then free to negotiate arrangements with the holding alliance directly. In fact, they are welcome to do their own logistics as well. Should they ever feel that the fees I am charging for my service are excessive, there would be nothing stopping any individual doing their own legwork and taking over. Hell, if an individual come up with a functional supply line that could be run more efficiently than mine, I'd outsource that component of my chains as well.

There's no contracts, there's no long term committment, you are free to pack up and leave whenever you like, organise your own logistics etc. There's no shareholders, there's no public reporting. There's very little *need* for trust. Like me, you would be reliant on the holding alliance honoring their contracts.

Having said that, I'm sure there are people (like Ricdic already flagged) that would be interested in something much more hands off, which would involve trust. That reduces your return, as it involves more work for me and those I choose to appoint to manage these chains, but completely hands off investment of money would be available and depending on market movements, returns would far exceed any other offer ever put forward in these forums.

(continued - word count)

Posted - 2008.02.04 08:51:00 - [12]

 

mind answering my question above?

its a question of mechanics that will be used, which is important.

Posted - 2008.02.04 09:06:00 - [14]

 

Posted - 2008.02.04 09:12:00 - [16]

 

Originally by: Trading Bunnz

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Deliveries and pickups would primarily be agreed times. Alternatively, *depending on your level of trust*, you could provide me access to your POS for deliveries/pickups. If you are a very special person who I trust, I could also provide you access to one of my POS for pickup/delivery. These arrangements would be made with the individuals.

If you have better/different suggestions for coordinating pickup/dropoff, I'm all ears.

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Thank you.

Although I am not sure how you plan on doing pickups and delivery's to a POS that belongs to another corp, even if you do have access(POS forcefield password), if they are not present. Since you wont be able to access their POS modules, hangers, silo's or towers fuel bays, since you dont belong to the same corp as them.


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Also I am curious about the 5bil minimum investment/buyin that you have. Does this mean that you have to be running 5 towers at a minimum to invest/buyin/franchise? I ask this because you are using a figure of roughly 1bil a tower for your own investments so I am just curious if by using that, 1 bil per tower figure, means that I have to have 5 towers at a minimum to particapate?

Posted - 2008.02.04 10:15:00 - [18]

 

Originally by: Treelox

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Although I am not sure how you plan on doing pickups and delivery's to a POS that belongs to another corp, even if you do have access(POS forcefield password), if they are not present. Since you wont be able to access their POS modules, hangers, silo's or towers fuel bays, since you dont belong to the same corp as them.

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Can a GSC be anchored in a forcefield? (I haven't tried) How many would be required for adequate volume for input/output? Then just share the password.

Posted - 2008.02.04 11:20:00 - [20]

 

To give some return figures.

Were you to invest 7b into establishing a Ferrogel chain (7 towers, defences, fuel, stront etc), and chose to run it yourself, buy fuel and materials from me and sell the output to me, based on the current 7d average of jita pricing you would earn about 3b per month or around 40% ROI.

This would require you to place an alt capable of piloting an industrial and anchoring structures in a designated 0.0 system, logging her in every week for a number of hours to shuffle fuel/supplies/outputs around and thats it.

(Calculated based on my taking a 5% margin over jita pricing for inputs, and acquiring your products at a 5% discount to jita pricing)

I encourage everyone to do their own math on this before deciding whether to jump onboard or not. People that choose to establish multiple chains will be eligible for further discounts on materials. People are free to discuss shipment fees BACK to empire for products to then utilise/sell/trade themselves as well, should my buying them onsite and then doing what I want with them not suit. As a guide, I'd be looking at taking 5% of the shipped volume as a fee for haulage, with that reducing the more you are involved in my operation. Anything that reduces the number of people I need to coordinate with on this operation will reduce the amount of margin I extract from you as an individual!

Should you want the entire operation managed and have someone else do all the work for you, remember you can pay someone yourself to do the actual fueling. Choose someone YOU trust and make your own arrangements with them.

For those truly lazy people who want me to do it all, you can expect to forgo at least 50% of the profit, after my logistics fees, to cover the cost of managing your operations, and that management will be outsourced to people *I* trust, but the "buck will stop here" and I'll cover any issues caused by me appointing managers who don't do their jobs properly. In the ferrogel example, your 7b investment, fully managed by me, would then only earn you around 1.5b a month but be completely passive to you. That would still provide a ROI of 21%.

Everyone should do their own math. Advanced Materials and Moon Materials markets jump around all over the place. Its very hard to predict with any accuracy what prices will be tomorrow, let alone next week. I will not be gauranteeing any returns, even for fully managed investment options, you will be at the mercy of the markets, like all of us.

Posted - 2008.02.04 12:12:00 - [22]

 

Originally by: Trading Bunnz

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So, you want a plan and all the details that go along with it huh? Tough. In this instance, you will have to do your own research to an extent. Suffice it to say that the investment involves POS's deployed in 0.0 ...

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What you are offering is nothing new. It was tried before and failed miserably.[1] What makes you think that you will succeed when you don’t offer a business plan?

[1] ISS rent a moon

Posted - 2008.02.04 12:53:00 - [24]

 

Quote:

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What you are offering is nothing new. It was tried before and failed miserably.[1] What makes you think that you will succeed when you don’t offer a business plan?

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I'm not doing this as a public service, or an IPO, or seeking to return dividends to shareholders like ISS. I'm doing this as an individual to generate obscene amounts of money to splash on Exotic Dancers, officer fitted Merlins, or whatever else I choose to spend my isk on. How I generate that income is, politely, none of your business.

I am renting entire systems from an existing, stable alliance. Its deep 0.0 and therefore faces different challenges than a gateway system. I'm not trying to make a communal, feel good outpost with a market for materials.

A business plan would be provided or presented if I wanted to pull a General Starscream and ask for 100b of public capital to be entrusted to me to generate some degree of profits off of. I'm not doing that.

I'm leasing some space, sticking up my towers and putting in place rugged, reliable, outsourced supply lines to feed necessary materials to that space to keep my personal towers supplied. In building that network, my supply line capacity far exceeds my personal needs. The system far exceeds my personal needs. So to defray some costs, I'm offering to share some of those benefits. If no one wants to get involved, well, it really doesn't worry me all that much, the offer has been placed on the table, my level of involvement is the same either way, just my overall profits from the arrangement will drop a bit without other tenants to assist me in defraying costs. It'll still happen regardless.

The "business plan" is up to those who choose to invest to come up with. What you do with any POSes you erect out there would be up to you. Ensuring you make money at those POSes is up to you. There's no flat fee, there's simply an increase in cost of materials to reflect the fact that its being shipped deep into 0.0 for you. And an offering to buy, at a discount, any advanced materials you generate, onsite, so you don't have to worry about long haul logistics yourself.

If people want "fully managed" investment options, then I've laid that on the table as well. They'd be investing in, essentially, high risk, 0.0 POS Reaction networks, and getting an exceptionally high return on their investment. To be honest, I wouldn't take too many "fully managed" investment options, as I don't have that many "trustworthy" managers, and I need most of them for my personal operations.

I was unaware ISS had done this. It doesn't matter, its an entirely different kettle of fish.

My ferrogel example was provided to spur people into looking at the market and seeing what kind of money they could make and to give a basic idea to those who may be interested, what sort of "cut" i would be taking.

I'll stress this again! This does not involve you giving me your money and taking a % return. If you WANT to run it that way, I can accommodate a few of you, but realistically, you would be far better off just accepting the basic material supply offer and strike a deal with a third party you trust to make an alt and manage the towers on your behalf. Hell, thats what I'm doing myself.

On the ferrogel example (which was chosen as its the highest current ROI!) you could pay someone 1b/month to do a few hours work a week and still take home 2b/month profit, even paying me my 5% margin each way. You make 2b, your manager makes 1b, I make my cut off you. This is win/win.

As always, anything new or different gets poked at. This is an entirely different way of investing. The risks are different, the return rates are different, the benefits to me are different, the benefits to you the investors are different.

Its not for everyone.

Posted - 2008.02.04 13:28:00 - [26]

 

Quote:

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Obviously you haven’t done your research.

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Not at all, thats just an assumption on your part. I followed the linky, as I hadn't heard about it before and was curious. They listed publicly an outpost, which was designed to generate income off taxes and renting out available moons, offices and JC facilities. The only way they had to make money was through that.

Further, it was in a gateway system.

Additionally, and no pun intended, it was an ISS operation.

Quote:

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Your answer completely avoids my original question.

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Also not true. Just because I don't present publicly my business plan for making money by doing this does not mean it doesn't exist. There is zero benefit to me in publicising my business details further than I already have. 0.0 POS Reaction Towers to fuel a t2/component production line.

Just because I don't present you, a potential investor, with a business plan shrink wrapped that allows you to make money, doesn't mean my business plan is going to fail. As I said, the way you make money in this deal is up to you, its not my care or responsibility. I gave a single example of a POS chain that could return profit, even after paying me for my services.

Quote:

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However, without any solid plans, history will repeat itself and the individuals will end up watching their POS going into smoke like it happened in the past.

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Thats possible. The alliance could betray me, wait for all my towers to go up, lock it down, wait for them to offline and loot the lot. Thats a risk I'm taking. Its a risk others who choose to invest will take. I don't believe that would happen, as its far more profitable to keep the arrangement going. Appealing to self interest is remarkably effective.

Quote:

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Which alliance holds the space you plan to "use"?

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That will not be revealed publicly. Obviously, once you are ready for me to courier all your gear out there, you'll know the destination and therefore the alliance.

Posted - 2008.02.04 14:34:00 - [28]

 

Originally by: Shadarle

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Pepsi... eventually a fleet of dreads came by

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I see your medication has kicked in.

Posted - 2008.02.04 15:22:00 - [30]

 

Edited by: Yiasa on 04/02/2008 15:22:05
IM a very big t2 component manufacturer running (over
100 slots 23/7) and as always am interested in increasing
profit margins =) Contact me thru eve mail for details.

FYI, atm input is 2 frieghter loads a week (1.200.000m3)