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ChalSto
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.02.06 11:53:00 - [181]
 

Edited by: ChalSto on 06/02/2008 11:56:41
Just a month ago, I was an outskilled gallente pilot, who flys the Deimos, as it should be.
Since a month I thought, why not giving the Vagabound
a chance. So I skilled for it and thats the result in comparison with the Deimos:

Deimos: Extremly difficult ship to fly. I dont mean only skill whise, but the "player"-skill, that is highly recommend to use this ship.....I mean, if I could make
a choise in the difficult-level in EvE, u have chosen
"Nightmare". Like grim likes to say: glass-cannon.
But the reward (remember, there is a risk/reward thingy in EvE, dear "Devs") , if u do everything right (and I god damn mean "everything", becouse if not, ur dead),
is.....well i cant descibe it in words, just in feelings: "bang bang....ur dead dude Twisted Evil".
From time to time I catch Vagas with it, becouse of the so called "kill-obssesion" of the most Vaga pilots Laughing. They pop, before they finish the sentence "OMG, I
lost my shie.......BOOOM".

Vagabound: I cant use T2-shieldExtenders yet, I cant use T2-guns with it yet. All named stuff. -> Set orbit 15km, klicky klicky, drones out, scrambler, and if something goes wrong, klicky, klicky, keep distance 50km, MWD on, ur safe. Hello?
To fly this ship needs NOT BY FAR, NOT EVEN NEAR the
"player-skill" to fly a Deimos.
Vagabound is a very very fine solo-ship for ppl, who cant play EvE a lot of time and want to have some fun with
"low-risk". (Please dont get upset, Minmatar-pilots, but this is a fact.)


And now they want to change the Deimos, becouse there are lots of new players out there, who whining, they cant handle the Deimos the way it should be.
Use a Vaga and dont whine.

My massage to this players (who might be possibly Devs too):

IM SO SORRY THAT YOU DONT HAVE THE SKILL AND THE
INTELLIGENCE TO FLY THIS FINE SHIP. MY HEART BLEEDS.
IM SO SORRY THAT GUYS LIKE YOU WILL ALLWAYS BE
VICTIMS IN THIS GAME, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WHINE.


CCP, fix players Laughing

Oh, btw: 5/4/6



Djerin
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.02.06 12:55:00 - [182]
 

Oh and by the way: we already have T2 cruisers for each arce that are designed to have good tanks. No need to do that in a Deimos..

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.02.06 13:06:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/02/2008 13:07:11
Originally by: ChalSto

Vagabound: I cant use T2-shieldExtenders yet, I cant use T2-guns with it yet. All named stuff. -> Set orbit 15km, klicky klicky, drones out, scrambler, and if something goes wrong, klicky, klicky, keep distance 50km, MWD on, ur safe.



Where do you fly? My Rupture is hungry Very Happy

Other then that, yeah, the Deimos is tricky to fly and fully deserves a 5/4/6 layout together with some more grid so you can actually, you know, do something with the fourth midslot.



ChalSto
Galactic Shipyards Inc
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.02.06 15:09:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/02/2008 13:07:11
Originally by: ChalSto





Where do you fly? My Rupture is hungry Very Happy





That would be a very very short meeting with the Deimos Wink
But if you wish: Somewhere between Nonni/Torrinos, hunting Tri :P


PS: 5/4/6

Adrian Steel
Caldari
Kabukimono Exploration Syndicate
Greater Realms
Posted - 2008.02.06 19:46:00 - [185]
 

I'm not a Deimos pilot, and I thought this change is regressive. Then I talked to seasoned Deimos veterans, and I KNEW this change is regressive.

joshmorris
Posted - 2008.02.06 21:36:00 - [186]
 

5/4/6

Ervi
Gallente
October Rain
Posted - 2008.02.06 21:53:00 - [187]
 

They nerf the EOS, Myrmidon, all drones, gallente recons are now useless.
Deimos have a very weak tank but is a decent ship, and they want to make it worse.

5/4/6
/signed

Azekial
Beasts of Burden
Equinox Alliance
Posted - 2008.02.06 22:14:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Azekial on 06/02/2008 22:45:11
Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi
Originally by: Ogul
The only crime is that some people still don't see that the new Deimos will have less cap than the old one.


Tell me about it.

Look, people: The old Deimos had 1375 cap. With Gallente cruiser V (which you needed to fly it, so every Deimos pilot will have it), your MWD penalty becomes 0.

The new Deimos gets a boost of 250 cap, to 1625, but loses the MWD penalty bonus. Fit a MWD (which you honestly need, and don't anyone dare disagree), and you lose 406 of that cap, leaving you with 1219 cap.

Last time I checked, 1219 < 1375.

I love my Deimos just the way it is. Leave it, please.

My proposition:

Deimos:

* Slots: 5/4/6 (-1 hi, +1 med)
* Capacitor capacity: 1850.0en (+475en)
* Bonuses:
~ 5% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per Gallente Cruiser level (no change)
~ 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Gallente Cruiser level (replaces the MWD capacitor penalty reduction)

This proposed change would be in favour of the Deimos and not regressive as most people have either stated or implied.

Shereza
Posted - 2008.02.07 00:32:00 - [189]
 

The problem with putting a repair bonus on the deimos, or any heavy assault ship, is that they are heavy assault ships, not defenders or heavy defenders.

Their offense is, and should be, their defense.

The only way this change is workable, to me, is if it's an effort to rectify an over-sight on their part. An oversight where the sacrilege and moa get tank bonuses in the form of resistances and the vagabond gets a tank bonus in the form of its speed bonus while neither gallente ship gets a traditional or non-traditional tank bonus of any sort.

Djerin
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.02.07 00:37:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Djerin on 07/02/2008 00:46:22
Imho the repair bonus is a complete waste, no matter if you change a high or a low to medium. Let me explain.

Assume the proposed change makes it in the way it was announced in the dev blog.
  1. To use the repper bonus you'd have to setup all the way tank. If you dont you cannot tank anything beyond 200 DPS which i seriously do not consider tanking really.
  2. With Ions you could easily fit MWD, injector and a single t2 rep. You'd have t2 base resistances and you would be using a 5 slot tank. If you put in aux nano pumps you could tank about 350 DPS depending on your compensation skills.

BUT: Since you need ammo you cannot carry around more than 9 or 10 bosster charges (800s, one already loaded in injector). So you'd be able to tank stuff for 6+ minutes. That is if you're not donated cap transfer. You'd be dealing the DPS of a Thorax w/ 1 or 2 magstabs in the process. A Brutix would be better in every way, except for agility - it costs significantly less.

The only difference of changing a hi to med instead of the low would be, that you'd deal about the Brutix DPS. You'd still tank worse and be far more expensive.

I say we don't need the rep amount bonus. I would complain less about a passive defensive bonus like armor resistances per level or armor hitpoints per level. But the rep amount is pointless. There is no way you can do anything usefull in a combat situation with that stuff. It's not like we're having one on one situations all the time.


A good tank on a HAC is only possible and usefull if you setup your ship for NPCing and avoid PVP. But why would you do that? There are cheaper ships that do the NPCing job much better.

Please CCP, forget the idea of a Deimos tanking something with it's repper. It doesn't need fixing. If the pilot is well trained skillpoint and experience wise this ship is totally fine. It's not about the numbers in the end.

Khorian
Gallente
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.02.07 01:45:00 - [191]
 

Edited by: Khorian on 07/02/2008 01:48:57
You know, when I first heard of this "nerf" I thought: ****, there are not enough die hard Deimos Fanatics out there to make a big enough impression on CCP to not go through with this change. I'm so happy I was wrong :)

CCP, we fought for months in that 40+ pages thread for this ship. Don't ruin it now after you fixed it. Deimos's Defense is (and should be) its offense. If anything, it needs more DPS ;P

You increased HP on ships not too long ago, but the DPS stayed the same. This was definately a blow to the Short Range DPS ships. But we adapted and with the last big change to the Deimos it became actually quite usefull (and frequently used), and most importantly fun to fly.

Some people enjoy not swimming with the flow but against it. Flying Deimos is a totally different expirience to most other ships in EvE. It is actually nerve wrecking at times, but in a good way :)

I think it's safe to say that the Deimos is not regarded as being overpowered by the general populace. Many even laugh at it (but they wouldn't dare go into web range). But as you can also see most Deimos Pilots like it the way it is.

Deimos is different, we don't want a gimp armor rep bonus. We are fully aware we are going to die ;P But we are gonna take someone else down with us when we have to go. No repper bonus will save us from that.
Please find another way, or don't change it at all.

PS.: Give her a Web Range bonus instead ;P

Spenz
Gallente
PCG Enterprises
Huzzah Federation
Posted - 2008.02.07 01:48:00 - [192]
 

I have no clue why ANYONE is suggesting to keep the 7.5% armor repair bonus. It is as if they have given up and are going through a stage of grim acceptance, but they still believe ccp will change their mind so they put forth compromise setups (aka go ahead and keep the 7.5% bonus but do this and that)


It is totally unacceptable. The armor rep bonus has absolutely no place on that ship, and without any extra grid it will NEVER have a place...ever. I seriously doubt everyone will spend isk on PG rigs just to use their 2nd hac bonus. I know I won't.

Saiee Do'Arn
Nothing Personal Inc
Posted - 2008.02.07 11:22:00 - [193]
 

Repair amount is not 'uber', but is ok - sometimes (mosttimes =)) useless, sometimes nasty - nothing wrong with it.
But removing 6th low-slot moves deimos to other role, leaving without any role to be true. 5 low is cool for nanoships and PvE and is totally not enought for tank/dps setups.

More surveability is nice idea. In close range you never have 'enought' tanking - even tanked phobos dies rapidly.

5/3/7 - is perfect for cunning close range pwnmachine (as i like deimos), leaving some space to play with fitting.
5/4/6 - is nice. dual-web, eccm or trackdis - all go in.
6/4/5 - is ugly, only acceptable with 6 turrent hi-slots to compensate lost magstab and still no more then acceptable.

Devs, are you remember 'old', pre-missile, sacrilege? You gonna make something same with 'new deimos'.

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2008.02.07 12:03:00 - [194]
 

Dude, the Deimos is supposed to be nano'd now ... so it gets the same slot layout as the Vagabond. ;-P


Bradstone
BradNett Reloaded
Posted - 2008.02.07 12:24:00 - [195]
 

Devastated... now the beloved Gallente are getting it in the neck... I know for a fact many of my PvP friends are not going to be happy with this change... I full out agree that this change is totally uncalled for. HAC's were already a dying breed, and the Deimos was the salvation of the HAC, but now with this change its truly made the era of the damage HAC end, most sad.

I truly fear what will pop out next from the dark, scheming labs at ccp...

100% signed - save the deimos

Durethia
Blackwater USA Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.02.07 15:29:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Djerin
Oh and by the way: we already have T2 cruisers for each arce that are designed to have good tanks. No need to do that in a Deimos..


It's funny how you word this, as though the Deimos is a new and upcoming ship. i.e. "we already have..."

Just so you know, HACs were out long before Heavy Interdictors and the best tank that can be put on a Deimos, currently with 6 lows, can not really compare.

Djerin
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.02.07 15:50:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Durethia
Originally by: Djerin
Oh and by the way: we already have T2 cruisers for each arce that are designed to have good tanks. No need to do that in a Deimos..


It's funny how you word this, as though the Deimos is a new and upcoming ship. i.e. "we already have..."

Just so you know, HACs were out long before Heavy Interdictors and the best tank that can be put on a Deimos, currently with 6 lows, can not really compare.


No you just didn't get the point. Deimos was never intended to be tanking anything. HICs on the other hand obviously needed to be tanking really good.

So after HICs have been introduced, why do we need to give a good tank to the Deimos?! There is absolutely no need to do so. And as i explained it doesn't even work properly, more like extremely inefficiently.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2008.02.07 15:55:00 - [198]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 07/02/2008 15:55:18
Originally by: Durethia
Originally by: Djerin
Oh and by the way: we already have T2 cruisers for each arce that are designed to have good tanks. No need to do that in a Deimos..


It's funny how you word this, as though the Deimos is a new and upcoming ship. i.e. "we already have..."

Just so you know, HACs were out long before Heavy Interdictors and the best tank that can be put on a Deimos, currently with 6 lows, can not really compare.



eehh.. best tank you can slap in a deimos is 5 faction neutrons with shadow serp AM, 3 officer mag stabs and 5 med ECM drones.


that is pretty much the very best tank you can slap on the deimosRazz

however it is also very expensive, so most of us are contempt with 5 T2 neutrons, 3 T2 mag stabs, fed navy AM and 5 ecm dronesCool

Loreth
V.L.A.S.T.
V.L.A.S.T
Posted - 2008.02.07 17:00:00 - [199]
 

First, Deimos is FINE as it is.

3 Medium slot means you have to chose either effective tackling(web+scram)or cap stability(cap injector). Choosing and not having it all is good imo.

The low slots ARE(hope not WERE) what the ship is made for - DPS with some hitpoints to survive doing it.

Removing a low slot is actually gimping the ship's flexibility since a damage platform is dependant mainly on its lows imho.
And a repair bonus ... roflcakes ... why didn't u give the sacrilege a repair bonus back then ? Laughing
Leave the dream-DPS-HAC alone this time CCP! Please we mean it!

Klavayne
Posted - 2008.02.07 18:42:00 - [200]
 

If ccp are so determined to boost its defensive capabilities, surely a boost to its hp buffer would be more appropriate. Say, 10% to armor hitpoints or something.

5/4/6 Wink

Herz Ing
Perkone
Posted - 2008.02.08 02:06:00 - [201]
 

5/4/6 !

I just wanted to add to my previous post that the armor rep bonus doesn't make much sense. What could the devs find wrong with the MWD bonus? It's effectively a +33% cap bonus - for those Deimos pilots that use an MWD ( 100% of 'em from the looks of this thread ). The only positive spin you could put on this is that replacing it helps those people who want to fly the Deimos without an MWD.

IMO, the problem here is that the armor rep bonus is just like the MWD bonus. It only helps the people that use an armor rep. I'm happy flying a Deimos with a plate instead of a rep and I think a large number of posters in this thread ( maybe the majority ) do the same. So we're going from a situationally useful bonus that was used by most to a situationally useful bonus used by a few. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's a nerf?

If the intent here was to boost the Deimos' tank then a resistance bonus would be a better fit. Or you could mess with it's Sig radius, hp, etc... but don't leave passive tankers out in the cold.

Also, as it stands the new Deimos has less cap than the old Deimos when fitted with an MWD. That's definitely a nerf. Less low slots for tanking? Also a nerf.

Quote:
After a significant amount of testing with the changes to the Zealot, it became apparent that the Deimos had problems compared to the other close range heavy assault ships. As the damage output is already the highest of all the HACs, we looked into boosting its defenses so it had a fighting chance. One of the main problems of actively repaired Deimos setups is the high energy requirement, so we have changed the slot layout so the Deimos can accommodate a capacitor booster.


Do you mean 1v1? How often does that happen? To put it into perspective: I got caught in a gatecamp last week flying a dual MAR II Ishtar - it lasted all of 10 seconds. ( No, I'm not sore about replacing the ship, it was due to my own ineptitude ). When you're fighting in a gang armor repping is pretty useless: It'll take ~1 minute for an MARII to give you the same amount of HP as 800mm RT plate. More if you're using Slave implants. You're lucky if you live that long in my opinion.

If this is really a boost and not a nerf then please make sure:
1. The Deimos does not lose cap when fitted with an MWD in comparison to it's current incarnation.
2. The Deimos does not lose low slots *which it uses to tank*
3. The MWD bonus is replaced with something that is universally useful *like* a resistance bonus.
4. The Deimos doesn't have the cargo capacity to carry a significant number of 800 cap charges ( and I for one wouldn't use any other kind until they nerfed cap boosters ) so adding the ability to fit a cap booster to the ship does not compensate for breaking it in other areas ( low slot, cap, bonus ).

( Constructive? )

wide
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2008.02.08 02:59:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: wide on 08/02/2008 04:29:36
Just read the dev blog and thought I'd share these thoughts:

1. The rep bonus is a real waste without any increase in armor resistance or HP. If things get rough, the deimos' best defence is to run away and certainly doesn't have enough armor to tank a sustained attack, especially with reduced resistance that comes with losing a low slot..

2. an extra mid slot is nice and something that its always needed. However if the new design is for the sake of fitting a cap booster, it is at the expense of its DPS as both the ions/nos or neutron fits won't work. If a deimos hasn't got dps, what is it good for?

3. If, as the dev blog states, the deimos is to be made more useful, go with the recommendation of this thread: 5/4/6, leave the cap and bonus' as they are.

Benglada
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.02.08 03:53:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: Benglada on 08/02/2008 03:55:33
edit: nm i do indeed like these changes.

Captain Batou
THE FINAL STAND
The Final Stand.
Posted - 2008.02.08 05:05:00 - [204]
 

After a year and a half of playing this game, with much enthusiasm, and watching the nerf happy devs have their way that this game is, indeed, a stinky pile of donkey Sh!t. Rolling Eyes
That being said:

Anyone for a game of Warhammer? YARRRR!!

James Draekn
X.E.N.O.
OWN Alliance
Posted - 2008.02.08 05:08:00 - [205]
 

I like the idea of the Deimos getting a 4th mid slot, but not at the expense of a low slot. The repper bonus is nice, although the problem with HACs is the lack of hit points to allow a repper to run long enough to make a difference in a fight. A battlecruiser has enough hit points to absorb damage and let the repper start to generate a defense (actively), not to mention it has a large enough cap buffer to utilize more systems for a longer period of time.

Highs - 5 (turrets)
Mids - 4 (increase grid to allow fitting of IONs and injector, make players choose to go more gank or more tank)
Lows - 6

Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 5% bonus to Armor Resistances per level (or alternatively 5% to armor hitpoints per level), increase base cap to compensate for the loss of MWD bonus

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level

The Deimos needs to have a passive armor bonus as that is more effective then a active one. When you start fitting a repper, MWD and blasters cap usage is huge. A injector will help with the problem, but the capacitor quantity is to small to provide a buffer against all the mods operating and NOS/NUET warfare. The resistance (or hitpoint) bonus acknowledges that blaster boats are in NOS/NUET range running a MWD and using blaster which eat a ton of cap, so if your tank requires you to heavily use a repper you cap out. Not to mention the lack of a hit point buffer to let the repper make any kind of difference.

Durethia
Blackwater USA Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.02.08 05:09:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Durethia on 08/02/2008 05:09:44
Originally by: Djerin

No you just didn't get the point. Deimos was never intended to be tanking anything. HICs on the other hand obviously needed to be tanking really good.



No, I understood what you were trying to get at. But new ships are more often released to fill in a role NOT already well done by existing ships. So you're whole philosophy of introduce something new, to justify gimping the old is flawed; it's not the reason for "new".

Originally by: Djerin

So after HICs have been introduced, why do we need to give a good tank to the Deimos?! There is absolutely no need to do so. And as i explained it doesn't even work properly, more like extremely inefficiently.


There is absolutely all the need to tank a Deimos. Who do you think is going to be primary first? The Phobos or the Deimos? You mean you are going to waste your time, trying to kill the Phobos, which can barely break through a wet paper bag, while I'm slapping you silly with my Deimos?

HACs are always taking abuse, and the most threatening ones always take the most abuse. The Deimos being the highest DPS HAC in the game is certainly one target best neutralized as soon as possible.

And the ENTIRE reason for giving the Deimos a higher base speed, after years of complaining, was because before Trinity, the ship was TOO SLOW to close the distance in time to have a chance at killing a target. For example, no matter how anyone T2 fitted their Deimos in RMR, starting from 35KM away, it will always die to a Munin.

Lessening the tank on the Deimos as they apparently have done, including damage output with less low-slots. This complaint will be revisted first day of the patch. Then what? Give the Deimos even more speed? It's not a Vagabond, nor should it be. The damn ship is FINE how it is!

...

Besides... "the deimos isn't supposed to tank"? what about any other ship? "the Navy Megathron isn't supposed to tank, why complain if CCP removes 4 low slots on it? It's never supposed to tank becuase of HICs."

Well, your rationale kinda sounds HIC'ish.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.02.08 10:17:00 - [207]
 

5
4
6

Just do it!

Druadan
Syrus Speculations
Posted - 2008.02.08 10:56:00 - [208]
 

Is this where our subscription money goes? So you can install massive Wheels of Fortune at CCP HQ? One to decide the ship that gets changed, one to decide the proposed reason, one to decide the attribute(s) that get changed, and a final one to decide what the attribute change is?

I think it would be cheaper to just have the devs play the game.

-Dru

CDLoon
Minmatar
Red Sky Morning
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.02.08 16:16:00 - [209]
 

5/4/6

/Signed


Lobo13
The Intergalactic Federation
New Eden Legion
Posted - 2008.02.08 16:22:00 - [210]
 

I say keep it the way it is or...

5/4/6

my 2 cents.


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