| Author |
Topic |
Gordon Red |
Posted - 2007.12.18 01:08:00 - [ 1]
Edited by: Gordon Red on 20/12/2007 06:41:34
edit to clarify some stuff
The Keres has a serious cap problem, even with all the shiny energy-use reduction boni and additionally it is by far the weakest EAS.
With the nerved dampener you need 2 T2 dampener (with the range script) to dampen a cruiser and 3 for a BS (without sensor booster). As you will see later even 3 dampener are hardly to sustain.
A Kitsune can easily jam 3 BS + MWD!
The EW-ceptors get a lower scram-bonus, but they do the job good enough.
First I describe the fitting and then the problems and the possible solutions.
1x MWD (speed is life, AB is not an option any EAS)
1x fleeting warp scrambler (T2 would be cool, but that would increase the cap problem further)
3x remote sensor dampener T2
lows propulsion mods
With this set-up you are in 2 minutes out of cap EVEN with turned-off MWD and no weapon fire!
used skills:
Propulsion Jamming 5
all ECM on 4
electronic attack ships 5
all cap skills 5
3x cap power relays II = not working good enough
rigs = insane costy ship
best named dampener = insane costy ship
AB is not an option
=> small cap battery + capacitor power relay will ease the cap-problem, but also gimp the ship heavily => only 2 dampeners are far too few (and your weapons would shrink to 2x 75mm gatlings)
=> increase the base cap of the ship (so that I don't need the battery, cap power relay is ok)
=> increase the dampening bonus to 10% (is needed anyway) |
Gordon Red |
Posted - 2007.12.18 14:31:00 - [ 2]
no input? |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2007.12.18 14:37:00 - [ 3]
 Originally by: Gordon Red
no input?
Keres sucks, new damps suck. Unfortunately, nothing new there.  |
Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League |
Posted - 2007.12.18 14:43:00 - [ 4]
Ill respond by saying that the Gallente EAS got nerfed before it even rolled off the line because of the damp nerf. This doesnt have to do with scripts, but rather with the strength reduction. If an Ewar specialized ship cant lock down MULTIPLE targets, its really quite useless, cap or no. Caldari ECM boost, while needed, made ECM ships overly cap stable a.k.a. able to tank (speed or shield) and Ewar at the same time. The Minmatar one with its MWD speed boost is a little insane too. Finally, while the Amarr ship is cap stable when using small neuts, it completely fails at A) causing any kind of damage (other EAS all have mid-slot bonus items) and B) cant neut anything larger than a cruiser, when it really needs to be gimping atleast 2 BS.
Conclusion: Tank or ewar, but only if the ewar can actually disable a ship so the tank isnt needed. |
Jimmy Doe
POS Consultants Group LLC
|
Posted - 2007.12.18 14:44:00 - [ 5]
Edited by: Jimmy Doe on 18/12/2007 14:45:23
try a capacitor control circuit?
btw EAS are meant for fast attack style gangs against few opponents and arent for taking multiple bs out of a fight. if you think they are, youre very very wrong.
|
Shionoya Risa
The Xenodus Initiative.
|
Posted - 2007.12.18 15:08:00 - [ 6]
I've been running around FFA over the past few days in a Keres.
Some thoughts, even with 2 Capacitor Control Circuits, I still need 3 tech 2 relays to keep stable cap with MWD, Guns, Damps and a tech 2 disruptor.
I can't fit a single thing, other than CPR's in the lows's.
Yes, the cap does suck, badly, but, with higher skills, I could affectively lock down a ship that I just so happen to find away from a gate and station until someone comes to kill it, or me.
This, though, needs me to be on the ball and finding out that ships targetting range when damped, while keeping it scrambled. And, of course, if I get too close and get locked I either need to die to the drones that will be coming at me, or, run from them, releasing the target.
Some side notes, I trained for this from basically nothing on SiSi, I had no damp skills, level 1 propulsion jamming, and no EAS skill. |
Gordon Red |
Posted - 2007.12.18 15:21:00 - [ 7]
Edited by: Gordon Red on 18/12/2007 15:21:18 Originally by: Jimmy Doe
Edited by: Jimmy Doe on 18/12/2007 14:45:23
try a capacitor control circuit?
btw EAS are meant for fast attack style gangs against few opponents and arent for taking multiple bs out of a fight. if you think they are, youre very very wrong.
a) one or even two capacitor control circuits are far too expensive for those cheap ships b) I am pretty aware of their usage c) The Kitsune CAN do it VERY easily, I don't said any EAS HAVE to be able to - this was only a comparison |
Zhecao Vai
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2007.12.18 15:26:00 - [ 8]
You might want to check out named damps buddy. |
Gordon Red |
Posted - 2007.12.18 16:07:00 - [ 9]
Originally by: Zhecao Vai
You might want to check out named damps buddy.
Hm, perhaps you should do some research, before you give out advises so high headed in one sentence... a) the boni from the ships are really good: T2 dampener = 1,4 cap/s best named dampener = 1 cap/s b) T2 dampener = cheap best named dampener = several millions => 3x best named dampener (+fleeting warp scrambler) and a cap power relay would do the job as long as you don't use the MWD and don't fire any hybrid weapon... BUT it would use a lot of more money as the hull itself is worth and those kind of ships are not that persistent... |
Andreya
Red Federation
|
Posted - 2007.12.18 16:19:00 - [ 10]
i dont think giving the keres (and the other ewar frigs) some more cap love would hurt...
whi your at it, get rid of that USELESS sig radius bonus on that hyena.... what the heck were you gus thinking :S .. either make it 5%, or just make the ships sig smaller |
Spartan dax |
Posted - 2007.12.18 16:41:00 - [ 11]
A Kitsune won't Permajam 3 BS's for pete's sake. I'm not saying that it's not a better ship than the keres but please, let's keep some perspective here.
I'd say that with 3 racials on a single BS you could consider that effectively "permajammed". If you come across 3 BS and you by some fluke would have them be all of the same type and you somehow magically "used the Force" to foresee this and fitted the correct Racial jammer you'd still never ever "permajam" all of them. Frankly, it's just not gonna happen. Any Kitsune pilot that takes it upon himself to permajam 3 BS's and talks his buddies into the fight that way is gonna get them all killed.
Also you'll cap out soon enough when running 4 jammers and a MWD, pretending otherwise is just absurd. Not that you're going to speedtank anything on a Kitsune doing 2.5k/s anyway. How fast will your Keres go with cap stuff in all your lows and how long will your modules run?
|
Waxau
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns |
Posted - 2007.12.18 16:57:00 - [ 12]
Lol yeah - Kitsune wont jam permajam 3 BS. Jam 3 bs? Yeah possible. However, not likely, and deffinately not permanently. I was able to perma jam a domi with racials....But that was 4 ECM. Not 1. Please dont exaggerate, as it only makes your post look more immature.
The problem, as already stated, is with the damp nerf. The damps were nerfed too hard, in regards to the spec'd ships. As such, they need a boost. However its the same for all damp boats out there.
As for cap usage...you shouldnt really be doing damage. My Kitsune for example has only 1 launcher, and that was cos i couldnt fit anything else on. Use named damps, use cap relays, and quit whining. We all know of the damp probs. |
Gordon Red |
Posted - 2007.12.18 18:05:00 - [ 13]
Edited by: Gordon Red on 18/12/2007 18:12:22
*sigh*
I flow a lot around with the Kitsune on the testserver. With the jammer strenght over 12 (not rigged) it is very easy to jam a BS and keep it jammed.
Okay, I have the feeling that, if I jam the BS in 8/9 cyles out of 10 with one racial jammer you wouldn't call it perma-jam. But that BS will not life that long...
And I don't whine. I can fly them all. The Keres is broken and that's what I wanted to tell and it IS, when you have to rigs only to make it work.
The other ships don't need rigs to work. |
Spartan dax |
Posted - 2007.12.18 19:33:00 - [ 14]
Ok ok, now we're talking. With 3 Racial jammers it IS easy to jam a BS.
Now, 3 damps on a BS is for most intents and purposes also going to mess up a BS big time. And even without speed mods you'll be doing close to 3k, exactly how many BS's in this game will chase you down and what kind of lock range will those have, surely not 250k?
Fill up your lows with cap stuff and stop worrying about speed. You're not gonna need it for tackling that single BS and if you come up against 2 or 3 BS's you're not going to do much worse than a Kitsune anyway. You'll do fine with an AB even against BS's. Maybe they'll be just a tad faster than you but they'll pay for it in cap and the rest of your gang can kill 'em faster anyway. |
Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
|
Posted - 2007.12.18 20:53:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Spartan dax
stuff
do you play the same game as i do? i seriously doubt it. the purpose of ewar IS that one ganged ewar ship has more of an effect than another combat ship, else what good is bringing ewar anyway? |
Spartan dax |
Posted - 2007.12.18 21:15:00 - [ 16]
It's also about size. Expecting a tiny frig to hold down several Bs's is quite frankly silly. Getting a single frig otoh to hold down a BS is a good bargain no matter what.
So yes, I do belive we're playing the same game. |
Waxau
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns |
Posted - 2007.12.19 01:27:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: Gordon Red
Edited by: Gordon Red on 18/12/2007 18:12:22
*sigh*
I flow a lot around with the Kitsune on the testserver. With the jammer strenght over 12 (not rigged) it is very easy to jam a BS and keep it jammed.
Okay, I have the feeling that, if I jam the BS in 8/9 cyles out of 10 with one racial jammer you wouldn't call it perma-jam. But that BS will not life that long...
And I don't whine. I can fly them all. The Keres is broken and that's what I wanted to tell and it IS, when you have to rigs only to make it work.
The other ships don't need rigs to work.
I have an ECM strength of 14 with my kitsune, and with 4 racials, unless you fit for all one race, you wont permajam. And no i dont mean 10/10 times. Its luck based, and chances are you WILL fail at some point. So what you said is just stupid tbh. Permajamming in my eyes, is jamming for 3 minutes without fail. That kinda does it for me imo. The difference is...A kitsune fitted for 1 racial type is great...if you have 4 Kitsune. With just one, you're stupid. With 4 Racials...1 for each race, you have a 50/50 chance of jamming someone in a Bs for example, with strength 14. Thats 50% permajammed. And the fact that you're posting that the Keres needs a boost is a whine. Doesnt matter which way you twist it. I agree damps need a boost for spec'd ships...but the Keres doesnt need a boost itself. Now why dont you play the game first, before you start whining about stuff you dont know about? |
Gordon Red |
Posted - 2007.12.19 06:45:00 - [ 18]
Perhaps you should stay in the politics forum with your kind of attitude.
Even with 3x cap power relays the cap is not as stable as the cap on any from the other EAS (I staited this already and I tried out everything).
One battery (the cargo is a little bit tight for a cap boosting) and one power relay does the best, but as mentioned in the first post you will remain with one point and two dampeners.
As argued this would be far behind any other EAS in effectiveness.
=> This ship needs more cap and a greater bonus to EWAR (as any other ewar-ship, which was already staited from the DEVs to be cared off in the boost patch). |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2007.12.19 08:34:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Waxau
I have an ECM strength of 14 with my kitsune, and with 4 racials, unless you fit for all one race, you wont permajam. And no i dont mean 10/10 times. Its luck based, and chances are you WILL fail at some point. So what you said is just stupid tbh. Permajamming in my eyes, is jamming for 3 minutes without fail. That kinda does it for me imo.
When going against battleships, you don't actually need to succeed at every cycle to effectively permajam. You miss a cycle, the other guy has barely time to regain a lock before he loses it again. You only start to fail when you fail multiple cycles in succession, and the chances of that happening is pretty low with ECM ship bonuses and decent ECM skills. So in my view, you can quite nicely effectively keep a couple of battleships locked down in a Kitsune, in general. That makes it worth using. It also makes the Keres utterly useless in comparison, which was the point here. |
Waxau
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns |
Posted - 2007.12.19 11:24:00 - [ 20]
Edited by: Waxau on 19/12/2007 11:27:54
Hardly.
It has the scramble range of the Arazu. Some may argue that its just as good as a ceptor, if not worse. Fair enough - Doesnt have the speed. But lets look at it this way. You can damp their lock range. In my cerb, with 2 damps and locking range scripts, i nuke their lock range by atleast 50% or so i believe (but dont quote me on that). A keres, with 3 damps, and its bonuses would do far better. Then with a long range scramble, you just orbit and not get hit. Yeah - Your cap doesnt hold out. Nor does mine. Train up your cap skills.
Also, i still stick by the same idea, that the Keres isnt broken, but damps are. Heck, i dont really care about damps, and im trying to get them boosted. So dont start whining towards me.
As for my attitude...You come on here whining that your ship isnt strong enough, when if you actually FLEW the ship properly, you'd realise that its damps which suck, not the ship. Your cap problems are not just YOUR ship, and as for your setup...why are you even fitting guns, which USE CAP! My attitude is directly linked to the lack of knowledgeable ideas, and opinions in your OP. I mean geez...You're whining that your FRIGATE cant nuke a bs in all but its actual hp, for longer than 2 mins?
You can lock down a ship from 40km....and then damp him to 20km. You're invulnerable near enough. Its not luck based either. You have a FULL 2 minutes to kill him. If your gang cant...so what? Thats not the Keres needing a boost. Kitsune you may argue can jam them better etc. Yeah it can. But can it scramble? Can it fit speed mods? My only tank is a 1mn mwd, and i go 2.5km for about 30 seconds.
Scramble outside their lock range (with your damps) for a minute or two...If its not dead by then...warp off. Not like you're unable to if hes damped and youre out of range.
As for the Kitsune... Yes, i COULD jam 2-3 bs at one time, by going on the idea of 'if i miss one, its no biggie'. Except for two points:
1. It doesnt take 20 seconds (a jam cycle) for a Bs to lock a frigate.
2. Thats if i fit 4 racials, 1 of each race, and FOUGHT those 4 races at once. With multi's theres no chance of jamming in that manner, except pure fluke. |
Gordon Red |
Posted - 2007.12.19 12:23:00 - [ 21]
Edited by: Gordon Red on 19/12/2007 12:23:23 Originally by: Waxau
Edited by: Waxau on 19/12/2007 11:27:54
Hardly.
It has the scramble range of the Arazu. Some may argue that its just as good as a ceptor, if not worse. Fair enough - Doesnt have the speed. But lets look at it this way. You can damp their lock range. In my cerb, with 2 damps and locking range scripts, i nuke their lock range by atleast 50% or so i believe (but dont quote me on that). A keres, with 3 damps, and its bonuses would do far better. Then with a long range scramble, you just orbit and not get hit. Yeah - Your cap doesnt hold out. Nor does mine. Train up your cap skills.
Also, i still stick by the same idea, that the Keres isnt broken, but damps are. Heck, i dont really care about damps, and im trying to get them boosted. So dont start whining towards me.
As for my attitude...You come on here whining that your ship isnt strong enough, when if you actually FLEW the ship properly, you'd realise that its damps which suck, not the ship. Your cap problems are not just YOUR ship, and as for your setup...why are you even fitting guns, which USE CAP! My attitude is directly linked to the lack of knowledgeable ideas, and opinions in your OP. I mean geez...You're whining that your FRIGATE cant nuke a bs in all but its actual hp, for longer than 2 mins?
You can lock down a ship from 40km....and then damp him to 20km. You're invulnerable near enough. Its not luck based either. You have a FULL 2 minutes to kill him. If your gang cant...so what? Thats not the Keres needing a boost. Kitsune you may argue can jam them better etc. Yeah it can. But can it scramble? Can it fit speed mods? My only tank is a 1mn mwd, and i go 2.5km for about 30 seconds.
Scramble outside their lock range (with your damps) for a minute or two...If its not dead by then...warp off. Not like you're unable to if hes damped and youre out of range.
As for the Kitsune... Yes, i COULD jam 2-3 bs at one time, by going on the idea of 'if i miss one, its no biggie'. Except for two points:
1. It doesnt take 20 seconds (a jam cycle) for a Bs to lock a frigate.
2. Thats if i fit 4 racials, 1 of each race, and FOUGHT those 4 races at once. With multi's theres no chance of jamming in that manner, except pure fluke.
I also stated that I can fly all EAN, so I don't whine that "my" ships is broken. I think that I am in the position to do a fair comparission. Personally I like fly the Sentinel and Kitsune the most. My cap skills are maxed, I am already working on the high-end on the skill side (30m - specialized in small ships only). I won't fire the guns, as long as the hole gang are shooting on one ship and it has to life under a minute, but in a small skirmish 10 vs 10 the cap is very important. I only wanted to state that the cap wasn't stable even without MWD and without weapons (so no clever guy could assume that). |
Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS |
Posted - 2007.12.19 14:11:00 - [ 22]
On sisi , I found the Keres fairly good in combat compared to the lachesis. The Keres itself isn't pre-nerfed at all.
Try to solo in a celestis and you will realize the extent of the damp nerf. |
Augeas
Anvil of Creation |
Posted - 2007.12.19 15:23:00 - [ 23]
Edited by: Augeas on 19/12/2007 15:27:08
Some people still seem to believe that the point of damps is to "lock down", or totally incapacitate, another ship. This was never the intended role of damps, hence their overpoweredness and recent nerf. That role rightly belongs to ECM.
Damps are supposed to be more subtle - to manipulate locking ranges to incapacitate units at range - snipers, ECM boats, even interceptors with their low lock ranges. It's more of a defensive role, really, one specifically designed to counteract the defining feature of the racial enemy, Caldari - range.
The Keres has the scram range bonus in addition, so direct comparisons between its damps and Kitsune's ECM fail further. |
Wu Jiun
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2007.12.19 17:06:00 - [ 24]
Originally by: Gordon Red
The other ships don't need rigs to work.
So how do you sustain neuts on the sentinel? Can't really imagine that keres has bigger cap problems. |
Einar Matveinen
Gallente
nXo
Intrepid Crossing |
Posted - 2007.12.19 17:15:00 - [ 25]
Edited by: Einar Matveinen on 19/12/2007 17:16:10
Edited by: Einar Matveinen on 19/12/2007 17:15:46
With enough skills (signal disruption lvl 4), a specialized ship with damper efficiency bonus (arazu, maulus, keres), dampers tech II or phased muon, and a script, the efficiency of dampeners can be more than 50%. With two dampeners you can prevent a BS or another ship to lock you at medium and long ranges. Before trinity the efficiency with the same skills, ships and modules is 68%. Dampeners have been nerfed but it isn't so terrible...the key is specialization... |
KD.Fluffy
Caldari
Sacred Templars
Black Swan. |
Posted - 2007.12.19 20:57:00 - [ 26]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Ill respond by saying that the Gallente EAS got nerfed before it even rolled off the line because of the damp nerf. This doesnt have to do with scripts, but rather with the strength reduction. If an Ewar specialized ship cant lock down MULTIPLE targets, its really quite useless, cap or no. Caldari ECM boost, while needed, made ECM ships overly cap stable a.k.a. able to tank (speed or shield) and Ewar at the same time. The Minmatar one with its MWD speed boost is a little insane too. Finally, while the Amarr ship is cap stable when using small neuts, it completely fails at A) causing any kind of damage (other EAS all have mid-slot bonus items) and B) cant neut anything larger than a cruiser, when it really needs to be gimping atleast 2 BS.
Conclusion: Tank or ewar, but only if the ewar can actually disable a ship so the tank isnt needed.
the kitsune doesnt warp scram now does it? What you've got with the gallente ecm boats is a mixed bag, a jack of all trades, a split weapon system if you want to call it. If you want extreme dampening power, then these boats should all probably loose the warp scram bonus. People conveniently forget that the gallente ecm boats also serve a tackler function when they compare with caldari. |
mamolian
Cruoris Seraphim |
Posted - 2007.12.20 00:22:00 - [ 27]
Meh, first thought that came into my head about the Keres is "expendable tackler"  As for the cap issues you mention Gordon, I've not flown it yet.. but neither my Lachesis setup or Arazu setup can run a mwd as well as the scram and damps permanently so.. |
Gordon Red |
Posted - 2007.12.20 06:32:00 - [ 28]
Edited by: Gordon Red on 20/12/2007 06:42:53
argh... NO MWD use, NO weapons fire, ONLY best named disruptor (propulsion jamming 5) + 3x dampener T2 (all ECM skills on 4) + all cap skills on 5 + electronic attack ships on 5 = cap is NOT stable! ONLY small battery+cap power relay gives a satisfying result, but that breaks the ship purpose.
=> increase the base cap so that the battery is not needed. I have no problem to fit a cap power relay (some disadvandages should remain) |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2007.12.20 09:33:00 - [ 29]
Originally by: Augeas
Damps are supposed to be more subtle - to manipulate locking ranges to incapacitate units at range - snipers, ECM boats, even interceptors with their low lock ranges. It's more of a defensive role, really, one specifically designed to counteract the defining feature of the racial enemy, Caldari - range.
That's nice in theory. In practice, the low optimal range (and lack of ship range bonus) of damps kills that in many cases. Ironically, ECM is much better at anti-sniper work, due to the long range ECM has on dedicated ships. ECM is currently simply too powerful as compared to damps, any way you slice it. As a result, we're already seeing everyone fill their mids with ECM, no matter what the ship bonuses are (last seen: a Curse with mids full of ECM). Sigh. |
Waxau
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns |
Posted - 2007.12.20 12:41:00 - [ 30]
ECM wasnt boosted you nub. ECM Ships were. If someones fitting their Curse with ECM, then good on them. It wont do them much use, unless theyre the flukiest sod alive.
And as already stated, Damps have been nerfed, not ECM boosted. Stop whining about something that was already the case.
Geez, the intelligence level of these forums drop each and every day. |
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