| Author |
Topic |
DARTHxFREE
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.12.08 22:29:00 - [ 1]
Edited by: DARTHxFREE on 08/12/2007 22:29:42
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
180,000LP + 72mill
Pre-patch
15x Gallente Navy Fleet Colonel Insignia II (800K isk each)
now..
98x Gallente Navy Fleet Colonel Insignia II (1.2m isk each)
cheak out this
Caldari Navy Small Grav Smartbomb (5-run)
504 Sergeant Insignia I
631 Sergeant Insignia II
756 Sergeant Insignia III
was that always that much?
The market can't suport this tag spendage |
Exiled One
Amarr |
Posted - 2007.12.08 22:51:00 - [ 2]
|
Jessamine
Imperial Shipment
|
Posted - 2007.12.08 23:09:00 - [ 3]
You listed the same tag, but different prices. That on purpose? |
NCP S2 |
Posted - 2007.12.08 23:27:00 - [ 4]
I thought there were two different ways to buy most modules...
Option 1 had a higher LP and ISK cost but lower tag requirements
Option 2 had a lower LP and ISK cost but higher tag requirements
Do they even out? not sure. I also haven't looked at the LP stores post patch. |
DARTHxFREE
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.12.08 23:30:00 - [ 5]
 Originally by: Jessamine
You listed the same tag, but different prices. That on purpose?
before the patch the market value was 800K, after patch it went up to 1.2m, that's player choice, not a big deal or a problem. what is is the change from 15 needed (12mill) to 98? was it, with higher price thats 117mill |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2007.12.08 23:43:00 - [ 6]
I suspect this is to encourage more players to run level 5 missions. Tag prices go up high enough and level 5 missions start looking more lucrative.
|
Tokra |
Posted - 2007.12.09 01:05:00 - [ 7]
Edited by: Tokra on 09/12/2007 01:06:37
I just made a fast check.
Tag price didnt change. Comparing the NPC buy price is alot easier.
But the needed Tags have really changed.
I compared the 5run BPC CNBCS.
Pre Trinity it was: 72 Fleet Major I, 51 Fleet Colonel I, 15 Fleet Colonel II.
Now its: 10 Major, 49 Colonel I, 72! Colonel II.
raising the cost for the tags from 44M to 81M (NPC sell prices oc).
From small check it seems a few items were moved up in the cost for tags. mostly less cheap tags, more expensive tags.
edit: Caldari Navy Small Grav Smartbomb was earlier: 948 Sergeant I, 786 Sergeant II, 633 Sergeant III. |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2007.12.09 01:26:00 - [ 8]
TBH, the only thing I use the LP store for is implants and/or faction ships.
The tags cost is way, way, way too high for what you're getting. A RF Warp Disruptor costs like 450M in tags alone (when I last checked the price)...
Liang |
CCP Greyscale
 |
Posted - 2007.12.10 11:28:00 - [ 9]
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the basic issue we discovered was that the numbers had been entered backwards (due to inconsistent column ordering), meaning for one thing the offers were costing less in "NPC equivalent value" than they should've, and for another the "most valuable" tags were being asked for in the smallest numbers and thus actually worth the least in real-world terms.
Given that, with player buy/sell orders dictating the market, the actual _value_ of the tags is a product solely of their relative supply and demand, and that supply is constant and the total demand across all tag types is almost identical to pre-patch, the net result should be that the actual, player-driven cost for accepting an offer should be exactly the same as it was once prices settle down. If it turns out you're still paying more, I think it's probably because you're being gouged by someone! |
Shionoya Risa
The Xenodus Initiative.
|
Posted - 2007.12.10 11:32:00 - [ 10]
|
Nabar Phargal
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance |
Posted - 2007.12.10 17:38:00 - [ 11]
Ok, my head hurts. Why would the LP corp even care how many majors you took down if you're required to take down 5 times as many senior colonels? What kind of command structure is this? There was an oversupply of high rank tags, so the solution was to invert the ratio of the demand. I haven't paid that much attention to the market for Caldari or Amarr tags, but Gallente Navy and Republic Fleet tags weren't selling for much above the NPC buy price. Republic Fleet Captain tags were kinda high, but the price was dropping last I checked.
Now instead of the limiting supply being the low value tags with high value tags being used for bonus ISK, the low value tags become excess ISK. This seems like a nerf whack on Caldari mission runners. Maybe Amarr too.
And I don't know where all these Gallente Navy Sergeant III tags are coming from. My total accumulation of frigate level tags is 191 Sergeant I: 144 II: 98 III. |
CCP Greyscale
|
Posted - 2007.12.10 17:51:00 - [ 12]
The premiss we were working off was that the problem was not oversupply but underdemand, caused entirely by the mismatch in amounts required for offers. The second premiss is that the supply of tags is roughly equal for all tags. It's hard to get an exact count on this as the tag supply is a fairly complex beast depending on all the individual missions and how frequently they're run; for similar reasons, changing the supply amounts is extremely difficult! I'm not sure I see how this is a nerf to anything though, other than to people who've been stockpiling tags and not kept up with changes on the test server or the recent blog. That said, if people are finding in practice that some tags are actually _rarer_ than others - as in, dropping significantly less frequently (unexpected), rather than simply being harder to buy (expected), please let me know  |
WrathchildeVOTF |
Posted - 2007.12.10 17:51:00 - [ 13]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the basic issue we discovered was that the numbers had been entered backwards (due to inconsistent column ordering), meaning for one thing the offers were costing less in "NPC equivalent value" than they should've, and for another the "most valuable" tags were being asked for in the smallest numbers and thus actually worth the least in real-world terms.
Given that, with player buy/sell orders dictating the market, the actual _value_ of the tags is a product solely of their relative supply and demand, and that supply is constant and the total demand across all tag types is almost identical to pre-patch, the net result should be that the actual, player-driven cost for accepting an offer should be exactly the same as it was once prices settle down. If it turns out you're still paying more, I think it's probably because you're being gouged by someone!
And how many of these offers have been redeemed in total? I've got a feeling that your prices are quite a bit higher than they should be, and that not many of these are being used. Wish I hadn't sold those tags off a year or so ago, now. Guess I'll keep that fullerine shard too, just in case you make it usefull 3 years from now. (Watch, that fullerine shard will be the requirement to advance to Jove tech or something). |
Nabar Phargal
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance |
Posted - 2007.12.10 18:48:00 - [ 14]
Edited by: Nabar Phargal on 10/12/2007 18:55:22
Assuming an oversupply of all the tags, the tag price of the mods just doubled. Assuming that tags are dropping in equal amounts throughout the universe, there used to be a relative overabundance of high value tags which were converted to ISK. Post-patch the relatively abundant tags are low value, converting to less ISK. This is a double whammy. You now have a mod that you must sell at lower profit (competing not only with T1/T2 in benefit vs. cost, but with pirate mods that didn't have any coded price guidelines before the LP store came along) and less ISK than you did before.\
Oh, and I held onto my stash of tags because I wanted to be prepared for whatever the new Syndicate offers required. I'm kinda disappointed there, but that's not for this thread. |
Caliwyrm O'Libr
Token Ring Assembly
|
Posted - 2007.12.10 22:51:00 - [ 15]
I'm honestly suprised that they'd INCREASE the tag cost of items.
I don't know of a single person that I've spoken to that things it is "worth it" to gather 336 tags AND pay 7.2 million ISK for something as low as a rocket launcher.
A 5 run BPC for a *small* smartbomb needing 1891 ship kills AND 101,250 LPs AND 40.5m ISK? Am I the only one that finds it ironic that a 5 run BPC Cruise Missile Launcher BPC costs less (not to mention that a faction cruiser BPC costs WAAY less? |
Ulstan |
Posted - 2007.12.10 23:58:00 - [ 16]
Quote:
nd for another the "most valuable" tags were being asked for in the smallest numbers and thus actually worth the least in real-world terms.
Well of course. This only makes sense. You don't say "To obtain this powerful item, you must slay me 347 generals. Oh, and 2 privates" It just seems really silly to do it the other way. Quote:
Given that, with player buy/sell orders dictating the market, the actual _value_ of the tags is a product solely of their relative supply and demand, and that supply is constant and the total demand across all tag types is almost identical to pre-patch, the net result should be that the actual, player-driven cost for accepting an offer should be exactly the same as it was once prices settle down.
Then what was the need for a change? If you think the overall prices aren't going to change at all, does it really matter whether it's the major or the colonel tag which is more expensive? |
MrRookie
M. Corp
M. PIRE |
Posted - 2007.12.11 00:15:00 - [ 17]
Edited by: MrRookie on 11/12/2007 00:16:42
I have a problem with seing the logic here aswell. The tags has a npc value aswell, and no mather how many tags drops of which kind, the tags with the highes baseprice will always have a higher value unless ofcourse the drop rate of the low end tags droped dramaticly.
Before trinity low end tags had a high value because of the somehow low supply and the high end tags was kept at a minimal price but would never drop to a certain point.
Now we'll see low end tags worth 1 piece of trit and high end tags skyrocketing.
Oh and with would be needed to fix is the drop rate of the tags that is undersupplied, aparently frig/cruiser tags |
Allestin Villimar
Zebra Corp |
Posted - 2007.12.11 07:57:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
The premiss we were working off was that the problem was not oversupply but underdemand, caused entirely by the mismatch in amounts required for offers. The second premiss is that the supply of tags is roughly equal for all tags. It's hard to get an exact count on this as the tag supply is a fairly complex beast depending on all the individual missions and how frequently they're run; for similar reasons, changing the supply amounts is extremely difficult!
I'm not sure I see how this is a nerf to anything though, other than to people who've been stockpiling tags and not kept up with changes on the test server or the recent blog. That said, if people are finding in practice that some tags are actually _rarer_ than others - as in, dropping significantly less frequently (unexpected), rather than simply being harder to buy (expected), please let me know
The problem with this is that you're telling people to run the equivalent of 3 months worth of missions for a small module. Whereas they can go out into 0.0, farm for 4 months, and are 10x as likely to get a module worth far more, and it increases their faction as opposed to completely slaughtering it. If you want more demand for these modules, you need to drastically reduce the tag needs/drastically increase supply, decrease the drop rate from officers and faction spawns, or increase the usefulness of the modules. Of course, if you did either of the latter two, 0.0 would dwindle away to nothing. Which basically leaves you the option of just reducing the tag amounts. No one is going to use most of these items in anything but missions with current game mechanics. The very slight increase in performance isn't worth the huge price or long grind. |
Sir Emi
Gallente
Space Odyssey Heroes
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 08:36:00 - [ 19]
one word for faction modules...  useless |
CCP Greyscale
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 10:45:00 - [ 20]
Originally by: Nabar Phargal
Edited by: Nabar Phargal on 10/12/2007 18:55:22
Assuming an oversupply of all the tags, the tag price of the mods just doubled..
Do we really have an oversupply of tags though? I was under the impression that most people couldn't get enough to cash in the offers they wanted? Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
I'm honestly suprised that they'd INCREASE the tag cost of items.
I don't know of a single person that I've spoken to that things it is "worth it" to gather 336 tags AND pay 7.2 million ISK for something as low as a rocket launcher.
A 5 run BPC for a *small* smartbomb needing 1891 ship kills AND 101,250 LPs AND 40.5m ISK? Am I the only one that finds it ironic that a 5 run BPC Cruise Missile Launcher BPC costs less (not to mention that a faction cruiser BPC costs WAAY less?
Tag requirements for small items were reduced in the last patch, by around 20% IIRC. The only tag reqs which went up were the BS-sized ones, which IMO were possibly too cheap and certainly too easy to get the tags for, comparatively speaking. Originally by: Allestin Villimar
The problem with this is that you're telling people to run the equivalent of 3 months worth of missions for a small module. Whereas they can go out into 0.0, farm for 4 months, and are 10x as likely to get a module worth far more, and it increases their faction as opposed to completely slaughtering it. If you want more demand for these modules, you need to drastically reduce the tag needs/drastically increase supply, decrease the drop rate from officers and faction spawns, or increase the usefulness of the modules. Of course, if you did either of the latter two, 0.0 would dwindle away to nothing.
Which basically leaves you the option of just reducing the tag amounts. No one is going to use most of these items in anything but missions with current game mechanics. The very slight increase in performance isn't worth the huge price or long grind.
The primary motivation for the LP Store was to give mission-runners more ways to cash their LPs in and push the price of tags up slightly while simultaneously reducing the ISK inflow. (In actual fact, if you save up/sell to players all your tags, you end up with a net isk sink in terms of empire ship "bounties", which is neat.) It was not intended to give a huge, ready supply of faction modules. As it is, Empire L4 missions already arguably pay out too much compared to what you can earn in 0.0, and adding a consistent and easy source of faction modules to the mix would push things further in that direction. So yes, if you actually want to get lots of faction modules, by all means go to 0.0! The same general logic was applied to the new content for the smaller factions - they're not intended to be uber modules/implants which everyone and their dog wants, they're intended to be interesting and unique "niche" items that the comparatively small numbers of people running missions for those factions can cash in their LPs for and sell on to the small number of people who really want that extra capability. Originally by: Ulstan
Well of course. This only makes sense. You don't say "To obtain this powerful item, you must slay me 347 generals. Oh, and 2 privates" It just seems really silly to do it the other way.
Then what was the need for a change? If you think the overall prices aren't going to change at all, does it really matter whether it's the major or the colonel tag which is more expensive?
To the first point, that makes sense to me only if you have considerably more privates than generals on the field, while for the L4 mission runner the opposite seems to be true. There's a more refined case to be made for the distribution between the ranks of equivalent "size", but again it's a payout issue. To the second point, the primary problem is that it ends up just boosting the payout from L4 missions, which again is probably not a good thing at this point. |
Hads Snappingturtle |
Posted - 2007.12.11 10:54:00 - [ 21]
Is CCP happy with the amount of redemptions used in the LP store for faction modules? The cost of tags, LP, and isk for these items is well above what they are worth. Since they have the same stats as other factions, there really is no need to purchase them. Also could you explain why nexus chip buy orders were removed without mention in the patch notes? LP no longer has a floor of 1000isk/LP. If this is intended and not a BUG then the LP market is going to crash. |
Esab
Caldari |
Posted - 2007.12.11 11:15:00 - [ 22]
Originally by: Hads Snappingturtle
Also could you explain why nexus chip buy orders were removed without mention in the patch notes? LP no longer has a floor of 1000isk/LP. If this is intended and not a BUG then the LP market is going to crash.
This question is one I would really like to know the answer too as well. The LPs offers are really not worth much now. The CNR used to be a good offer but now its fallen through the floor value wise . |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project |
Posted - 2007.12.11 11:29:00 - [ 23]
It would be indeed good to know if removal Nexsus chip buy orders was intentional or just unintended side effect of tweaking things.
I'm fine with either way (as I rarely used nexsus buy orders anyway), but same time a bit concenrned about additional 'cheap' LP starting to enter the market (from missionrunners who are not patient enough and just dump their LP on market at 500 or under isk/LP). It might also increase problems of overpopulation in combat corporation agent clusters (like Motsu) when reason to run agents with non-combat corps dimishises (if you remove LP 'saefty net' then you can and will get better rewards in location with multiple agent's letting you pick most profitable missions bounties wise, like aiming for worlds collide over and over again). |
DARTHxFREE
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 11:45:00 - [ 24]
Edited by: DARTHxFREE on 11/12/2007 11:45:53
I have no problems with any lowering of value of LP
180,000 LP used to cash in for an Invul (not the best LP:ISK but easy to sell)
With new change's that 180,000 LP would only make about 40-50mill ISK, about 1/3rd prepatch, that's....aceptable.
As the system is very player base operated it's yet to be seen what LP evolves to.
It is still a discounted option to kit your self but doesn't look like the LP->Income will hold out.
What I am left wondering about is the state of lvl 5's, the main supply of BS tags, as it stands atm the market value of the tags went up, but I forcast them droping by a lot since poeple will just avoid tag rewards.
As LP:ISK is about 1/3rd if my estimated are right, and the value of BS tags will drop to powp, that would be the end of the already unjustifiable lvl 5's. |
FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 12:47:00 - [ 25]
Some of the tags are certainly much less common than other. I've been saving all my Amarr tags since the LP store opened. Most of my tags come from Level 4 missions. In that time I have amassed the following tags:
Amarr Navy Captain I - 122
Amarr Navy Colonel I - 543
Amarr Navy General I - 393
Amarr Navy General II - 560
Amarr Navy Major I - 119
Amarr Navy Midshipmen I - 50
Amarr Navy Midshipmen II - 79
Amarr Navy Midshipmen III - 32
Amarr Navy Sergeant I - 26
Amarr Navy Sergeant II - 698
Amarr Navy Sergeant III - 390
Amarr Navy Sergeant Major - 26
Based on this list, it seems clear to me that anyone who runs level 4 missions will be very short on the Amarr Navy Major tags, which are required for most of the interesting offers. I also ran some Level 2 and 3 missions, but got very few Major tags off them.
|
Nabar Phargal
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance |
Posted - 2007.12.11 16:20:00 - [ 26]
My assumption of oversupply is based almost entirely on experience with Caldari Navy offers. The few transactions I've made with Republic fleet tags have played out the same way. The relative scarcity of people blowing up Caldari friendly ships may create a separate scenario for the Federation and Republic LP stores. I haven't done that research.
Detailed observations:
The 100k, 500k, and 750k ISK tags are not uncommon enough to be a limiting factor for the LP store. The market averages for those tags in The Forge and The Citadel are barely above NPC buy orders. There are offers requiring these tags that are definitely worth accepting (damage mods, cruise (maybe still torp) launchers, active tank mods, maybe large smartbombs). Combining tags, ISK, and LP (@ the previously coded minimum standard of 1k/LP) the mods are expensive enough to make them rare in pvp but popular in pve. High demand for some mods (BCU, cruise launchers come to mind) drives prices higher. LP is the limiting factor, and prices come down as more LP is generated. These mods don't blow up often enough to sustain demand.
The 60k tags are (were?) definitely a limiting factor. Their drop rates are lower than the higher rank tags in L4 missions and they are required in greater amounts per mod. As a result they can be sold for 180k or more. I'd say there are fewer offers worth accepting at this level, but they are great (Amarr Navy EANM). At base cost they're about as cost effective as T2 @ pre-invention prices. High demand and relative scarcity of building materials (60k tags) drives prices.
The frigate tags (Gallente Navy Sergeant X and equivalents) hardly drop at all in L4 missions and are required in relatively obscene amounts. Even with the relatively low supply of tags, their median prices in the Citadel are still usually at NPC buy price. There are fewer offers for mods useful on any size ship (cloaking device is the only one I see for Caldari Navy). Most pirate equivalents sell for below base LP store cost.
Summary: Only one value of tag is currently an effective ISK sink. Whether intended or not, the LP store did create a huge and ready supply of faction modules. Even better, it's not a lottery. Rather than hunting faction spawns in belts and hoping to hit the jackpot you can grind missions for a guaranteed reward. I think exploration has a shot at uprooting some mission huggers, but it’s still too much “fly around a lot and hope to get lucky” for most of us.
I’m baffled by the “move to 0.0 for the niche items that comparatively few of you want” ploy. Does NPC 0.0 not count?
Bah, this feels like a ramble. Screw it, I’m posting anyway. |
JonShannow
Caldari
Regante
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 17:09:00 - [ 27]
So in other words we decided to shaft the mission runners again and if we dont like it, sod off to 0.0 ?
I actually hung on to my sub for Trinity with the hope/idea that more pve content was gonna be forthcoming.
Guess I was wrong, in fact we got a load of mining missions and a few new combat missions.
Jon. |
Susan Acid |
Posted - 2007.12.11 17:23:00 - [ 28]
75 mm Gatling Rail Gun costs(With tags,LPs@1k per 1 million Isk and cash)about 25 million Isk in the Navy LP store.
Tell me what genius at CCP thought that was 'fair' or 'worth it'.
Lazy.Just plain lazy imo. |
Zo5o
The Scope
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 17:58:00 - [ 29]
Edited by: Zo5o on 11/12/2007 18:06:16 Quote:
Also could you explain why nexus chip buy orders were removed without mention in the patch notes? LP no longer has a floor of 1000isk/LP. If this is intended and not a BUG then the LP market is going to crash.
I was told it was intentional by a CCP member in help chat. Quote:
As it is, Empire L4 missions already arguably pay out too much compared to what you can earn in 0.0
About this... I would have agreed with l4 mission running income being too high a few months ago, when I was making an absolute killing off faction ammo. Profits were coming in at 50 mil an hour. Since the faction ammo market crashed, I'm back down to roughly the same old 20 mil an hour most l4 runners have been making for quite a while now. At the moment, now that the faction ammo market crashed, l4 profits seem to be balanced, but heading downhill fast, something the nexus chip nerf is NOT going to help. That being said, the main problem I see with the LP store is the overwhelming abundance of modules offered which are either no better than T2 equivalent, or identical to cheaper, more abundant faction counterparts. Quote:
So yes, if you actually want to get lots of faction modules, by all means go to 0.0!
If I want said cheaper, more abundant faction counterpart, I'm not going to go rat in 0.0 for it for months, I'm going to instantly buy it off contract for far cheaper than the lp+tag cost from the LP store. To summarize: there are too many LP store offers for which there is absolutely zero reason for anyone to ever want to cash their LP on them. These offers are simply wasting space on CCP's hard drives. How to fix this without significantly boosting mission runner income? 1: Boost the modules so they're better than T2 or more cheaply priced faction counterparts, and raise the lp store cost. This would increase the demand for these modules without damagingly increasing supply or sellers' income. Everyone wins. 2: Lower the lp store costs for modules equivalent to t2 so they cost the buyer roughly the same as best named t1 (which is usually t2 equivalent at a higher price due to skill reqs). |
Liang Nuren |
Posted - 2007.12.11 18:11:00 - [ 30]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Do we really have an oversupply of tags though? I was under the impression that most people couldn't get enough to cash in the offers they wanted?
No, I have nowhere near the amount of tags that I'd like to get. I run missions for RSS and almost never see the Amarr Navy in any mission I run. I'm much much much more likely to see Caldari Navy tags than Amarr Navy tags*. Is this intentional? Are you sure that the tag missions for a faction are presenting the 'right' facitons in the right proportions? Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Tag requirements for small items were reduced in the last patch, by around 20% IIRC. The only tag reqs which went up were the BS-sized ones, which IMO were possibly too cheap and certainly too easy to get the tags for, comparatively speaking.
To be honest, the tag requirements for 'small' (e.g., explicitly frigate sized items) are far and away too high - especially for modules that are only possibly better than T2. Since you're looking for a quick and easy way to create an isk sink, you could increase the ISK price of all offers that require tags (by NPC buy amount + 20%), and drastically reduce (by 75-80%) the tag requirements for the frigate items. At the same time, make modules bought from the LP store 'more fragile' (and thus more likely to 'splode when someone's ship goes pop). * In all missions where I see the Amarr Navy, I am also guaranteed to see Caldari Navy. Usually, I'll see significantly more Caldari Navy than Amarr Navy. This leads to my Caldari Navy tag collection being between 3-4x as large as my Amarr Navy tag collection. This includes things like pinging the Level 2 and 3 agents to see if there's any "tag missions" available. The best tag mission I've found is Human Cattle... and killing the huge Amarr fleet at the end (which, btw, should produce a different reward than it does). BTW, it's telling when you get a 'tag mission' (vs Amarr + Caldari Navy) for RSS and the recommended hardeners are Kin/Thm. ;-) -Liang |
|
All Channels
Missions & Complexes
