Posted - 2007.11.15 19:34:00 - [151]

 

Originally by: Curzon Dax

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People aren't living in highsec because its so freakin' awesome. They live there because lowsec and 0.0 are lame.

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Who are these mystical "people"? I spend swathes of time on a trade/industry alt in empire in a noob corp, and almost everyone who talks in there doesnt live in empire by choice, they live in empire because they're ignorant of the fact 0.0 even exists.

Posted - 2007.11.15 19:46:00 - [153]

 

Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Curzon Dax

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I want highsec PvP on demand. I want lagless, gankless, small scale fights in highsec.

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Thread done.

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Meaning you finally get it? Or that you've somehow twisted the above quote to serve your argument?

Posted - 2007.11.15 20:27:00 - [155]

 

Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Curzon Dax

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I want highsec PvP on demand. I want lagless, gankless, small scale fights in highsec.

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Thread done.

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Don't we already have that in the form of challenging an alliance mate and/or mates to try to break each others tank(s).

Posted - 2007.11.15 21:34:00 - [157]

 

Edited by: Nicho Void on 15/11/2007 21:36:16

Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Nicho Void

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Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Curzon Dax

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I want highsec PvP on demand. I want lagless, gankless, small scale fights in highsec.

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Thread done.

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Meaning you finally get it? Or that you've somehow twisted the above quote to serve your argument?

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Meaning he finally admits he wants a carebear pvp switch.

- Wee.. turn on my pvp (duel) flag and fight this guy.
- Wee.. turn my pvp flag off again and now right back to safety.

Basically cake and eat it too. Whats the point of lowsec and 0.0 if you can get stupid rich in highsec and get your pvp thrills as well with little to no risk?

And that's what this all comes down to. Risk avoidance. Having everything under control. Manipulating game mechanics until it resembles his version of "fair", the rest of the game be damned.

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Roy, the only way this will ever change is if lowsec and 0.0 have a tangible reward higher than that of highsec. Flying my ass into a lowsec blob gankfest for a possible reward that's less then what I would make mining veld makes no sense. It's called opportunity cost.

EDIT: And for the record, I am not a high sec carebear. I lose more myrmidons in a week then most people lose in a month. I rat in 0.0 because that is where the money is at for me. I do this because I have to, because the alternative options suck and there's nothing I can do about it.

Posted - 2007.11.15 21:45:00 - [159]

 

Auto reject? CSPA?

Do you even play this game?

Posted - 2007.11.15 21:58:00 - [161]

 

Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 15/11/2007 22:03:37

Highsec has PVP. It's called empire wars and if they are not working for you, then you are doing something wrong.

The snapshot split is pretty inconclusive. My main may have been in 0.0, Empire or low sec. Two of my alts were definitely in high sec Empire. Two others were logged off in 0.0 chokepoints. One of the Empire alts is a skilled character in its own right, currently wiping the floor with idiots who think +0.01 ISK constitutes trading. I bet that's a pretty typical spread. It doesn't really tell you much about who is losing out.

What's more, in my experience most 0.0 participants don't base out of 0.0, they log off in Empire far more often than not. A lot of the players counted as high sec or low sec Empire players in that snapshot, are likely to be regular visitors to 0.0, and full participants while they are there. You only have spend a little while in NPC sovereignty 0.0 to see the steady traffic of new faces who pass through, maybe kill, maybe die, and don't hang around.

So, without taking special purpose characters and raiders into account, the snapshot is not fit for the purpose people are reading into it. You would really have to look at the picture on a 'per player' basis and gauge their playstyle bias to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Where does the player play? And take care not to confuse means and ends, mistaking for a carebear someone who has 3 character-hours in high sec Empire for 1 character-hour in 0.0! You have to guess the purpose behind the effort, otherwise the data is junk.

So this is not simple, people.

Posted - 2007.11.15 22:46:00 - [163]

 

gah its been said before but looking at the report approximately 60% of characters are under 2 million skill points...that leaves 18% of non "noobs" in high sec being vastly outnumbered by the 32% in low/null sec

Posted - 2007.11.15 23:39:00 - [165]

 

I really can't believe that people are so...naive to believe that being able to flag to anyone...anywhere....or the idea of having an arena to fight in, is anything like Battlegrounds in WoW. In WoW you PvP for rank and rewards. In Eve, you PvP to blow up other people and steal their stuff.

Adding the ability to PvP more in highsec isn't going to do away with 0.0 PvP. I presume people are in 0.0 because they want to own space. That's not going to change, really.

Lookee. I understand that a LOT of people in Eve can't stand the idea that suckers are no longer going to want to run into their gatecamp and get ganked...or run into their blob and get ganked....when they can stay in highsec and PvP anyway, and have it be fun, instant gratification and all.

But the mechanisms for this already exist. They just need to be made EASIER to use, and more accessible to everyone at large.
------------------------------

Out of curiosity, whatever happened to the idea of a sandbox? That everyone could play how they wanted to? There's a multitude of screaming people jumping into this thread to holler that PvP shouldn't be touched, that enticing more people into PvP isn't a good thing...that OMGPPLZRGOINGTOLEAVE0.0.

What rubbish!

Posted - 2007.11.17 15:52:00 - [167]

 

Edited by: Curzon Dax on 17/11/2007 15:53:26

Originally by: Kalahari Wayrest

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When they can stay in highsec and PvP anyway, and have instant fun and gratification in the form of a high sec arena (and without a working definition of which, my response is just formed on the basis on what I'd imagine that to be) then there's no reason to go outwards and explore and test your limits by going down the sec scale and maybe eventually to 0.0, because it's already all there.

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I think this is what it all boils down to. 0.0 is a job. Say what you will, but its like an 8 hour a day job. I'm not there because this is a video game. I run a poker channel(Eve Online Hold'Em), and some servers, and quite a few of the players play poker during fleet ops to save themselves from dying from boredom. I WANT instant fun and gratification. I WANT to have my cake and eat it too.

This is video game, I paid for it. In fact, I pay $15 a month for it. I'm SUPPOSED to have my cake and eat it too, and have a blast. As it is, I don't PvP much. My friends don't really PvP much anymore either. Its because PvP's current form IS NOT FUN. Really: Gatecamping isn't fun. Gatecampers are reading the forums, or playing poker, or doing something else to keep them occupied. Fleeters are doing the same.

When people are doing other things, outside of Eve to have fun or to insert something into the boredom of their PvP operation....that should MEAN something. Having explored down the security statuses and into 0.0; having let my own security status go negative, and working it back up again, I've been there. I think Eve is in a rut. I don't think a lot of players realize it yet, but the more you've done in Eve, the less fun it is.

1. You start off as a noob. You spend months training skills in anticipation of all the fun you'll have when you've trained them.

2. You get them all trained and grind missions / rats in anticipation of all the fun you'll have when you have the ISK to PvP.

3. You PvP and realize how you've spent 7 months thinking it was going to be fun, only to be sorely disappointed in lagfests, gatecamps, and the emptiness of 0.0 and 98% of lowsec.

The average Eve player lasts for 7 months, and that's their lifecycle.

I post because I think we need change. Someone high up in the chain needs to remember that we're not paying them so that we can have jobs. We're paying to play a game. And its supposed to be fun. Players here are so USED to working 8 hour jobs in Eve in order to get some PvP, as if PvP were the ultimate objective to be achieved after a 40 man raid after 7 hours through some hideously hard dungeon, and only the most dedicated should be rewarded with PvP.

Folks, it shouldn't be like that. WHen you feel like making PvP more readily available to the masses cheapens your PvP experience....there's something wrong with that. When SOE let ANYONE be a Jedi in SWG, that was a cheapened experience.

Making PvP available to anyone ON demand....that's simply good business.

Posted - 2007.11.17 17:45:00 - [169]

 

Originally by: Cmdr Sy

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Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 15/11/2007 22:03:37

Highsec has PVP. It's called empire wars and if they are not working for you, then you are doing something wrong.

The snapshot split is pretty inconclusive. My main may have been in 0.0, Empire or low sec. Two of my alts were definitely in high sec Empire. Two others were logged off in 0.0 chokepoints. One of the Empire alts is a skilled character in its own right, currently wiping the floor with idiots who think +0.01 ISK constitutes trading. I bet that's a pretty typical spread. It doesn't really tell you much about who is losing out.

What's more, in my experience most 0.0 participants don't base out of 0.0, they log off in Empire far more often than not. A lot of the players counted as high sec or low sec Empire players in that snapshot, are likely to be regular visitors to 0.0, and full participants while they are there. You only have spend a little while in NPC sovereignty 0.0 to see the steady traffic of new faces who pass through, maybe kill, maybe die, and don't hang around.

So, without taking special purpose characters and raiders into account, the snapshot is not fit for the purpose people are reading into it. You would really have to look at the picture on a 'per player' basis and gauge their playstyle bias to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Where does the player play? And take care not to confuse means and ends, mistaking for a carebear someone who has 3 character-hours in high sec Empire for 1 character-hour in 0.0! You have to guess the purpose behind the effort, otherwise the data is junk.

So this is not simple, people.

---

You'll notice Curzon stays in a noob corp. He only wants to fight when he can completely determine the circumstances. He repeatedly says how lame 0.0/lo-sec combat is, but he also declines to engage in hi-sec combat either.

In essence, he wants to fight only where he can use the advantages of his vast wealth and many many SP in addition to what I presume is his personal skill (apparently he's quite good), without allowing other players to use the counterbalances such as numbers, strategy (as opposed to tactics), etc.

If Curzon were serious about his PvP flagging idea, he'd make himself war-decable.

Posted - 2007.11.17 19:41:00 - [171]

 

Originally by: Curzon Dax

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This is video game, I paid for it. In fact, I pay $15 a month for it. I'm SUPPOSED to have my cake and eat it too, and have a blast. As it is, I don't PvP much. My friends don't really PvP much anymore either. Its because PvP's current form IS NOT FUN. Really: Gatecamping isn't fun. Gatecampers are reading the forums, or playing poker, or doing something else to keep them occupied. Fleeters are doing the same.

When people are doing other things, outside of Eve to have fun or to insert something into the boredom of their PvP operation....that should MEAN something. Having explored down the security statuses and into 0.0; having let my own security status go negative, and working it back up again, I've been there. I think Eve is in a rut. I don't think a lot of players realize it yet, but the more you've done in Eve, the less fun it is.

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Sorry to cut up your post Dax, but done for a honorable purpose.

Some will call me crazy, some do in fact, but get rid of gates and a lot of these issues we're dealing with will go away. Gates are the problem, they restrict travel far more than they should. Space is not a fortress, it is an enormous empty, well, space. Gates served a function once when you had 6,000 players in a few thousand systems, to force players to the same locations so they could find one another. Advancements in probes, scanners, ship types not to mention the raw computing power that now exists, can all be used to compensate for choke-pointless space mechanics.

I'd like to ask people reading this to really think about it, consider what would be needed for the game if we did not have gates. Think of the minimal things that would be required. You'll discover that much of what is needed already exists in the game in some fashion. Some new things will be needed, but a lot less than you may guess; some old things will need adjustment or enhancement, but it can be done and in my view, should be considered.

/hands soap box to next poster …

Posted - 2007.11.17 20:56:00 - [173]

 

Edited by: midge Mo''yb on 17/11/2007 20:56:43

Originally by: Curzon Dax

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Edited by: Curzon Dax on 17/11/2007 15:53:26

Originally by: Kalahari Wayrest

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When they can stay in highsec and PvP anyway, and have instant fun and gratification in the form of a high sec arena (and without a working definition of which, my response is just formed on the basis on what I'd imagine that to be) then there's no reason to go outwards and explore and test your limits by going down the sec scale and maybe eventually to 0.0, because it's already all there.

---

I think this is what it all boils down to. 0.0 is a job. Say what you will, but its like an 8 hour a day job. I'm not there because this is a video game. I run a poker channel(Eve Online Hold'Em), and some servers, and quite a few of the players play poker during fleet ops to save themselves from dying from boredom. I WANT instant fun and gratification. I WANT to have my cake and eat it too.

This is video game, I paid for it. In fact, I pay $15 a month for it. I'm SUPPOSED to have my cake and eat it too, and have a blast. As it is, I don't PvP much. My friends don't really PvP much anymore either. Its because PvP's current form IS NOT FUN. Really: Gatecamping isn't fun. Gatecampers are reading the forums, or playing poker, or doing something else to keep them occupied. Fleeters are doing the same.

When people are doing other things, outside of Eve to have fun or to insert something into the boredom of their PvP operation....that should MEAN something. Having explored down the security statuses and into 0.0; having let my own security status go negative, and working it back up again, I've been there. I think Eve is in a rut. I don't think a lot of players realize it yet, but the more you've done in Eve, the less fun it is.

1. You start off as a noob. You spend months training skills in anticipation of all the fun you'll have when you've trained them.

2. You get them all trained and grind missions / rats in anticipation of all the fun you'll have when you have the ISK to PvP.

3. You PvP and realize how you've spent 7 months thinking it was going to be fun, only to be sorely disappointed in lagfests, gatecamps, and the emptiness of 0.0 and 98% of lowsec.

The average Eve player lasts for 7 months, and that's their lifecycle.

+snip to make more room for my post:p+

Folks, it shouldn't be like that. WHen you feel like making PvP more readily available to the masses cheapens your PvP experience....there's something wrong with that. When SOE let ANYONE be a Jedi in SWG, that was a cheapened experience.

Making PvP available to anyone ON demand....that's simply good business.

---

you know whe na gang travels throug ha system.. where do they start and stop?

GATE TO GATE just because you jumped through as a gang is coming doesnt mean every ****er gatecamps, in months up here in venal i have not seen a single bubble gatecamp

this whole generalisation that everyone gatecamps is really annoying

whats wrong can you not take your gleaming battleship on omgub4rpwnridehax through lowsec on your own, without getting caught by come gang. so get an inty/hac and you will outrun these "gatecamps"

the day i can see people running round tooting they have eleventyone arena kills is the day i quit eve tbfh, you wanna pvp in high sec use the wardec system - you wanna pvp elsewhere get a gang, if you current friends dont cater your play style then find someone else to fly with.

i used to think the same as you, but i bit the bullet and jumped out to 0.0 and i will never turn back its a blast if you find the right people to fly with - the npc 0.0 reigons are prime pvp ground as no one is fighting to hold space its people just wanting to pvp, and it usualy small gang warfare, only times ive seen lagfests are the times we went to dek to help tri

Posted - 2007.11.17 22:01:00 - [175]

 

curzon makes a good point that people wont leave 0.0 to play lame arena pvp

none of the fun stuff would be used in arena pvp anyways since its all high sec

Posted - 2007.11.17 23:16:00 - [177]

 

Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Cmdr Sy

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Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 15/11/2007 22:03:37

Highsec has PVP. It's called empire wars and if they are not working for you, then you are doing something wrong.

The snapshot split is pretty inconclusive. My main may have been in 0.0, Empire or low sec. Two of my alts were definitely in high sec Empire. Two others were logged off in 0.0 chokepoints. One of the Empire alts is a skilled character in its own right, currently wiping the floor with idiots who think +0.01 ISK constitutes trading. I bet that's a pretty typical spread. It doesn't really tell you much about who is losing out.

What's more, in my experience most 0.0 participants don't base out of 0.0, they log off in Empire far more often than not. A lot of the players counted as high sec or low sec Empire players in that snapshot, are likely to be regular visitors to 0.0, and full participants while they are there. You only have spend a little while in NPC sovereignty 0.0 to see the steady traffic of new faces who pass through, maybe kill, maybe die, and don't hang around.

So, without taking special purpose characters and raiders into account, the snapshot is not fit for the purpose people are reading into it. You would really have to look at the picture on a 'per player' basis and gauge their playstyle bias to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Where does the player play? And take care not to confuse means and ends, mistaking for a carebear someone who has 3 character-hours in high sec Empire for 1 character-hour in 0.0! You have to guess the purpose behind the effort, otherwise the data is junk.

So this is not simple, people.

---

You'll notice Curzon stays in a noob corp. He only wants to fight when he can completely determine the circumstances. He repeatedly says how lame 0.0/lo-sec combat is, but he also declines to engage in hi-sec combat either.

In essence, he wants to fight only where he can use the advantages of his vast wealth and many many SP in addition to what I presume is his personal skill (apparently he's quite good), without allowing other players to use the counterbalances such as numbers, strategy (as opposed to tactics), etc.

If Curzon were serious about his PvP flagging idea, he'd make himself war-decable.

---

Malcanis, that's an absolute load of personal slandering rubbish.

I'm in an NPC corp because Eve is full of worthless corps like yours. Yes, I've run into High4Life, and SMASH several times. I'm in an NPC corp because your corp, and all the corps like yours...suck.

The corps that are worth being in generally don't openly recruit. Nor do I advertise openly that I'm looking for a corp, or corps like yours spam me with corp invitations. So, its sort of a vicious circle and keeps me in an NPC corp for now. =p

As for your idea of wardecs: How typical is that? Your solution to someone you don't like is to blob them. Wardec them, muster a fleet, find them, and blob them to death. Last time I saw SMASH alliance in space was in Geminate. I was ratting. I lost my ship in a 41 to 1 engagement. And a rat got the killmail. That was the best part of it. =p

The rest of your faulty assumptions are complete crap. I'm a mission runner and a miner. I don't really PvP because I don't have the skills to do it. I don't mind an occassional fight on even terms, but having been in the 0.0 fleets, having camped in lowsec, having done a bit of everything....its safe to say that PvP's current form blows.

So thanks for your useless trolling, but no thanks to making a one man corp so that you and the dozens of other r-tard corps out there can wardec me and camp my station. If I'm going to run missions, why join and corp and pay them for the privilege of running missions? I've got a moral objection to corp tax. =p

Posted - 2007.11.17 23:18:00 - [179]

 

Originally by: Paulo Damarr

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I think some people really fear any kind of arena pvp because the ability for any player to log in and get a fight and then logout will emphasise the frustrations of EVEs pvp in general.

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Precisely. The minute that PvP starts being FUN...where you can do it at will, where you can log on, get some action, and log off again when you're done without having to spend multiple hours in a fleet assembly, then hunting, with breaks, as a drone for a FC....

All the drones out there would feel like they've just been invalidated.

ZOMG....people are having fun PvPing?!?!? Something must be wrong!