Posted - 2007.11.14 16:18:00 - [122]

 

Originally by: Arc Anna

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Even if the ratio of 0.0 to empire alts is 2:1 (which I really doubt), the numbers are still staggeringly in favour of empire.

Hell, I'll give you 3:1, for every 1 alt in 0.0, there's 3 support alts in empire. That's still 51% of the population in Empire, still the majority.

Seems to me 0.0 folks are in denial of the numbers and choose to see it their way, regardless. Threads like these reinforce the Online Forum Dictum: The Minority Whine The Loudest.

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I certainly agree with the last sentence.

Posted - 2007.11.14 18:41:00 - [124]

 

Originally by: Ares Lightfeather

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Most high sec systems I fly through have less than 10 people in it... and yeah, that's in caldari space.

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What, are you specifically avoiding populated systems just so you can say that?

Originally by: Ares Lightfeather

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Mission hubs have 50 and more, as do the system close to jita, but apart from it...

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50 and more? Try at least 100. For the bigger ones, 50+ for less popular ones.

Posted - 2007.11.14 18:57:00 - [126]

 

Edited by: Eventy One on 14/11/2007 19:01:18
On the very first line this thread starts with this link which points to devblog that introduces the stats.

One of the posters in that thread makes this point:

Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon

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First, I believe the characters with less than 1 million SP should be considered outliers. So many people have alts that are in Jita, or for scouting, or simply out of the box market alts that sit on the same account as their main character (I'm guilty here, too)

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Of course the guy who gave us the stats agreed, CCP Dr.EyjoG.

Even if we treat the alts etc as outliers and normalized these stats against accounts, rather than characters, I think Curzon Dax's point, that the PvE players don't wield nearly the influence as the very vocal, and sometimes inarticulate, minority, as we can see in this very thread. (This thread, after all, is a microcosm of the game)

This is, of course, debatable, but even normalized against accounts, I suspect the majority DO hang in empire for a few simple reasons:
1. The market is most advanced there is evidence of player localization
2. Historically people in society favour law over lawlessness
3. I know from my own experience, that though I spend a great deal of time in 0.0, I am unable to completely sever my ties to empire (and of course do have an alt there that I do use for PvE)

Given that, I think that the original point - that CCP favours the wrong crowd - is exactly right, like it or not.

It doesn't matter if Curzon Dax can't present a list of 100 things that need to be fixed in high sec, or changes that need to be made. Identifying fixable items is CCP's job for they see all user feedback, and not just one person's pet ideas.
Similarly it doesn't matter if 50% of the empire based players are newbs. Newbs, pay money to play, and their experiences, if substantial numerically, should be catered to the same as anyone else. If you successfully improve the playing experience of newbs, you're obviously going to have more long-term players down the road.

I sign and support the argument made in this post because I think it has merit, and I think the originally poster used CCP's own metrics to make his case. CCP should start looking at more than simply the PvP aspect to this game.

/sign

Posted - 2007.11.14 19:06:00 - [128]

 

Originally by: Faye Valerii

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I'd say 90% of the chars below 1mil sp are just scouting alts, abandoned experiments, facegen dolls, market spotters, spy alts etc ... Even a trial player will pass 1mil sp before the trial runs out : )

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This is conjecture of course. If they release the stats normalized against account rather than players, your conjecture will either be verified or disproved. I don't think it matters what the composition of characters with less than 1M skill points is because newbs or alts, they are clearly engaged in game-play as evidenced by the stats that show ship losses.

After the less than 1M SPS category is the next largest category (10-20M sps) and trend is also evidenced in the Ship losses category (look at the volumes of Ravens that are lost for example).

Cheers
Eventy One

Posted - 2007.11.14 19:12:00 - [130]

 

Edited by: Faye Valerii on 14/11/2007 19:14:36

Originally by: Eventy One

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Originally by: Faye Valerii

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I'd say 90% of the chars below 1mil sp are just scouting alts, abandoned experiments, facegen dolls, market spotters, spy alts etc ... Even a trial player will pass 1mil sp before the trial runs out : )

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This is conjecture of course. If they release the stats normalized against account rather than players, your conjecture will either be verified or disproved. I don't think it matters what the composition of characters with less than 1M skill points is because newbs or alts, they are clearly engaged in game-play as evidenced by the stats that show ship losses.

After the less than 1M SPS category is the next largest category (10-20M sps) and trend is also evidenced in the Ship losses category (look at the volumes of Ravens that are lost for example).

Cheers
Eventy One

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Good point. But let's not forget that about 10% of logged on accounts at any time are trials (proven by stats). So logically only 10% of characters should come from trials. Trials start with 800k sp, so they'd be up to 1mil in less than two weeks. So, the vast majority of -1mil sp chars HAVE to be the kind of alts I mentioned. Cause new players get above 1mil so quickly, and only 10% of all online players are trials, and you HAVE to be a trial to have less than 1mil sp, if you're actively training skills.

If you're not actively training skills you're the kind of alt I mentioned.

edit : the 10% is from memory, it could be 15% but certainly not more than that.

Posted - 2007.11.14 19:28:00 - [132]

 

Originally by: Eventy One

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Edited by: Eventy One on 14/11/2007 19:24:55

Originally by: Faye Valerii

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If you're not actively training skills you're the kind of alt I mentioned.

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You can't actively train skills on multiple characters, without getting more than one account - remember? Each account may only have one character training at a time. It doesn't really matter why the largest category of empire based characters has less than 1M sps because CCP's policy helps makes it so. (... and I suspect they know this ..)

Cheers
Eventy One

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Well that's exactly part of my point. You can't train SP on more than one character. So logically all those -1mil sp alts are chars who aren't getting trained. So ... it should be completely obvious those characters are the kind of alts I mentioned, there's no other use for them !

Posted - 2007.11.15 11:27:00 - [134]

 

Edited by: ry ry on 15/11/2007 11:31:21

Originally by: Ares Lightfeather

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Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 13/11/2007 16:47:33

Quote:

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Curzon, if you take 'proper' pvp out and replace it with arena combat

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I was answering this.

Quote:

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4. Arena combat is an ADDITIONAL form of PvP, not a replacement for existing PvP.

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I was paraphrasing that in my answer (this is taken from curzon's post).

Which means, unless the word "additional" doesn't mean what I believe it means, that it doesn't replace anything, just adds.
So, please, by all means, explain to me how my post is wrong.

Even if I disagree with Curzon on the % analysis, because he ignores the influence of alts and newbies, and because I'd rather enhance low sec and 0.0 sec than high sec, which is already popular enough, the "arena" bit still is a good idea, not matter how you look at it.

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you say 'ADDITIONAL form of PVP' as if nothing would change beyond offering pew on tap. think it through. there are only X people online at any one time - if you shove half of them into a special server somewhere where they won't be worrying your Badger, what do you expect to fill the vacuum?

PvP needs both Ps to work. if you introduce a 'battlegrounds' style combat arena, the hardcore pvpers would head there because they knew they'd get a fight and the epeen monsters would turn up to farm pvp rank. Where does that leave Eve? who is actually left in space? mothership gatecamprs and miners, i'd imagine.

Like i said, it defeats the whole point of eve.

Posted - 2007.11.15 12:12:00 - [136]

 

Please show me a study which concludes that the mayority of the players wants to have arena's.

Untill you can prove that your entire point is moot.

You can say feature X only applies to 15% of the population but you aren't suggesting a feature Y that applies to the 85% of other players but instead project your own wishes to the 85%. Which in fact is total and utter bull****.

Posted - 2007.11.15 12:22:00 - [138]

 

Edited by: ry ry on 15/11/2007 12:28:11

Originally by: Jones Maloy

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the reason i'm not in low-sec right now is because of the wcs nerf. i can't pve in low-sec when i'm garunteed to die everytime someone jumps me. pve setups don't have warp scrams. pve setups have only specific resists. pve setups are geared to fighting weak rats. pve setups are not competent in pvp, thus i should have the option to gimp my ship further to be able to run away.

ideal:
pvp ship > wcs ship > rats

current:
pvp ship > rats > wcs ship

how i pve in low-sec?

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you're approaching this from the wrong angle; you're fitting to farm rats at maximum efficiency, and people trying to shoot you is an inconvenience. you should fit it to kill rats and survive if you're engaged.

besides, there are plenty of empire lvl 4 agents if you don't want to take any risks.

Posted - 2007.11.15 13:20:00 - [140]

 

Originally by: Curzon Dax

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Edited by: Curzon Dax on 13/11/2007 09:06:48
Latest Dev blog here.

So...9% of players live in 0.0 and 13% of players live in lowsec. Lets take a HUGE leap of faulty assumption and presume that not a single one of them are carebears.

That means that 78% of all the players in Eve are PvE oriented, and live in highsec. The various other statistics go quite some distance in confirming it.

Now...lets look at nerfs, patches, improvements, the rare buffs (which are really nerfs to other things).....

Virtually all of these things are aimed at the 0.0 players. Some of them apply to the lowsec players. Why is it that 99% of the content released / changed in Eve caters to the absolute smallest minority of players? If more than 3/4 of all players in Eve are PvE focused, shouldn't we get more things to focus on the majority of players?

Granted - the particular minority that we're speaking of are the absolute loudest, most vocal minority in Eve....but still the minority. The statisticians at CCP have spoken. The majority of Eve thinks that the PvP system we currently have absolutely blows and that PvE content is more fun and invigorating.

/discuss.


*EDIT* I had a thread HERE some time ago suggesting that arena combat is a necessity in Eve because of the disfavor that the bulk of the customers in Eve view the current system with. I should think that it just got a whole lot more relevant.

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Hmm "character" doesnt equal player otherwise what you are saying might make sense. I am a 0.0 player, i view myself as such and spend most of my playing time there. However i also have at least 1, sometimes 2 other chars online in empire at any given time. The "spare" slots on these accounts are generally chars i have been mucking about with who are sitting in hi sec systems to. So 7 of 9 chars owned by this 0.0 player are in empire at any given time. Added to this is the fact that almost all 0.0 chars will head in empire for the purposes of shopping + logistics, due to the poor state of economies in 0.0, and because npc items are seeded in empire. The same is true to a lesser extent for "lo sec players". Then there is travel, at any given time there must be people who are traveling through hi sec to get between parts of lo/0.0 sec, especially when attacking each others space. In comparison there are few "hi sec players" doing the reverse. Then there is all the players who are in hi or lo sec simply because they lost a fight and are looking to get back into 0.0 as soon as possible. Then there is newer players who are in hi sec but plan on heading out to lo sec/0.0, few 0.0 players are aiming on moving to hi sec. Taking these things into account it looks to me like probably the a very large minority of players count themselves as 0.0 or lo sec players, or will do so at the first oppurtunity. Then there is the even more faulty presumption that 0.0 players are pvpers and hi sec players are pve orientated, which manifestly untrue. There are plenty of carebears in 0.0, just most of them pvp when necessary. I dont think they view all the additions, buffs and refinements to things such as exploration/outpost construction, invention etc as being as being not pve focussed and of these only outposts arent available outside 0.0. Likewise empire pvp corps are a large and ever growing group and i dont think you can count them as pve maniacs just cos they live in empire. Nowhere is there evidence to back your claims that "virtually all these things aimed at the 0.0 players", "more than 3/4 of the players in eve are pve focussed", "99% of content released /changed caters to the absolute smallest minority of players" or indeed that "the majority of eve thinks that the pvp system we have blows".

Posted - 2007.11.15 18:02:00 - [142]

 

Quote:

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That means that 78% of all the players in Eve are PvE oriented, and live in highsec.

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That is a hell of an assumption.

I think a more likely assumption is that pure highsec players enjoy solo/small group play, something not viable in 0.0 and not worth doing in lowsec. I think solo/small group players in MMORPGs are a larger demographic than one usually thinks.

Posted - 2007.11.15 18:19:00 - [144]

 

Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Curzon Dax

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Proposed WoWification

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No thanks. Find a different game. Quit trying to change this one into something it's not.

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If you think that being allowed to request combat with another person in high sec is a WoWification, then you need to get a ****ing clue.

At no point in this argument has the removal of low-sec and null-sec PvP been suggested. The only outcome this suggestion could have is a new, different form of combat.

Why do you fear this? Because you think there will be an exodus to empire? As Curzon (and CCP) have pointed out, the majority of players already live in highsec. And just to reiterate Curzon's point: open your map and take a look. Not liking what you see isn't going to change it any. The fact is that players are tired of blob/gank/camp/lag warfare. We want something else. Until that happens, you will continue to see the majority of players staying in highsec.

Posted - 2007.11.15 18:38:00 - [146]

 

Originally by: Nicho Void

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Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Curzon Dax

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Proposed WoWification

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No thanks. Find a different game. Quit trying to change this one into something it's not.

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If you think that being allowed to request combat with another person in high sec is a WoWification, then you need to get a ****ing clue.

At no point in this argument has the removal of low-sec and null-sec PvP been suggested. The only outcome this suggestion could have is a new, different form of combat.

Why do you fear this? Because you think there will be an exodus to empire? As Curzon (and CCP) have pointed out, the majority of players already live in highsec. And just to reiterate Curzon's point: open your map and take a look. Not liking what you see isn't going to change it any. The fact is that players are tired of blob/gank/camp/lag warfare. We want something else. Until that happens, you will continue to see the majority of players staying in highsec.

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You defeat your own argument. If hisec is so appealing that so many are living there, than it certainly isn't the area of the game that needs any improvement.

Curzon's suggestion is basically PvP flagging. Basically the opposite of what Eve has always been about. It speaks volumes about how much Eve has degraded (or at least these forums) in the last year that he hasn't had the forum equivalent of being run out on a rail for suggesting such a thing.


If hisec has so much of the player base as he is arguing, than the reasons for this need to be addressed. Not add things to hisec that will exacerbate that problem even more.
capisce?

Posted - 2007.11.15 19:09:00 - [148]

 

I know it can be too easy to scoff at someone's ideas as stupid, and I really try to avoid it.

But when I read Roy's posts, and when I read the people who answered him...it gets harder. Roy, how can you NOT get it? I've been repeating myself in different ways for 10 posts in this thread, and you and some others still don't get it. Its like...you haven't read what I wrote. Or don't understand it. Or can't grasp it.

Which...is why I keep repeating myself, because I keep thinking, "Well maybe I didn't put it out there very well, and they didn't understand."

But every time you write something, and so many others here...you're STILL not getting it. I can't really "argue" or "debate" your points because they don't really have anything to do with what this thread is about. *sigh* Its why being a forum warrior is so frustrating sometimes.

DUDE, there's nothing WoW about my suggestions, really. Let me repeat myself again.

People aren't living in highsec because its so freakin' awesome. They live there because lowsec and 0.0 are lame. Because hunting for PvP for 4 hours is lame. Because gatecamps are lame. Because fleet battles and lagfests are lame.

CCP doesn't need to nerf highsec, they need to fix PvP, 0.0, and lowsec. EVERYONE EXCEPT YOU UNDERSTANDS THAT AGENDA. And until they DO and CAN fix it, and make it fun endeavor, I want something fun to do in highsec. I want highsec PvP on demand. I want lagless, gankless, small scale fights in highsec.

I don't know how you don't get it, so let me try math, the universal language.

0.0 fleet fights + lowsec gatecamps/ganks + Empire Wars = Status Quo + Some PvP

0.0 fleet fights + lowsec gatecamps/ganks + Empire Wars + Arena/flagging options = Ideal status quo = MUCH MORE PVP THAN PREVIOUS EQUATION.

I even put some CAPS in there to help.

Posted - 2007.11.15 19:34:00 - [150]

 

Originally by: Curzon Dax

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People aren't living in highsec because its so freakin' awesome. They live there because lowsec and 0.0 are lame. Because hunting for PvP for 4 hours is lame. Because gatecamps are lame. Because fleet battles and lagfests are lame.

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QFT.

I don't see what all the hating is on the the idea for High Sec arena Combat. Its not like anyone is asking for a General PvP flag like in SWG. No onehas shown how this would hurt the game in any way. Pilots can still be can flagged, you still can camp lowsec etc.... It just sounds like a big Whinefest and I can't even find a good reason why!