| Author |
Topic |
Darken Two
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2007.11.13 13:57:00 - [ 61]
 Originally by: Ares Lightfeather
Originally by: Darken Two
"What curzon proposes is to replace the loot stealing mechanisms used to have consensual pvp in high sec by a CCP-made mechanisms..."
What does this statemnet mean? you want CCP to start making artificial boundries? Whats next? we get a choice if we want to have death penalties or not ?
If you want to have a well defined and linera world, there's plenty of choice in the MMO market.
It means, among other things, that you cannot read, nor click on a simple link in the OP, and that you enjoy flaming people without having the slightest clue of what you're speaking about.
Quote:
Please go somewhere else and stop trying to ruin this one.
There is no way I'll go where I have a chance to meet you.
I want no change to low, 0.0 sec, and easier access to pvp in high sec. MOAR PVP. You're preventing me from asking for more pvp in Eve, so, I have to answer you :
Hello kitty online :  that way.
LOL You want more PvP by having carebear arenas where you caress each otehr with lasers is it? You're such a hardcore PvPer  Oh my I can't stop laughing. Anyways, we already have arenas. It's called "Empire Wars" and you get teh chance to shoot a whole bunch of people for a nominal fee. |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2007.11.13 13:57:00 - [ 62]
Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/11/2007 13:58:56 Originally by: Curzon Dax
So...9% of players live in 0.0 and 13% of players live in lowsec. Lets take a HUGE leap of faulty assumption and presume that not a single one of them are carebears.
Every single 0.0 person I know has at least one empire alt, most have several. For example I have 2 characters that I regularly take into 0.0(although one of them spend half its time in empire), and 4 other characters that are empire alts. If you look at the statistic instead of jumping to conclusions, you'll see that almost 60% of characters in eve are under 1 mil SP. Since the average number of trial characters is a little under 10% of eve, we can assume the other 50% are alts. So of that 79% in highsec, half of that are alts, now some maybe alts of other empire dwellers, but many, MANY, will be alts of people who live in lowsec/0.0. I was surprised by the lack of pirates in this game actually, there really arent many people with negative sec, only like 3k out of 400k are below -3... Goes to show how greatly exaggerated the whole "lowsec is pirate infested" argument is. |
Ares Lightfeather
Gallente |
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:00:00 - [ 63]
Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 13/11/2007 14:02:50 Originally by: Darken Two
LOL You want more PvP by having carebear arenas where you caress each otehr with lasers is it?
You're such a hardcore PvPer
Oh my I can't stop laughing.
Anyways, we already have arenas. It's called "Empire Wars" and you get teh chance to shoot a whole bunch of people for a nominal fee.
So, we could have more way to shoot each other, and you're saying that you want to stay at the state the game is now ? What a "real" PvPer you are, trying to prevent people to create more way to shoot each other. But that's derailing the thread. Your point of view and mine are but a repetition of what is in the thread curzon linked... |
Darken Two
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:03:00 - [ 64]
Originally by: Ares Lightfeather
Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 13/11/2007 14:00:37
Originally by: Darken Two
Originally by: Ares Lightfeather
LOL You want more PvP by having carebear arenas where you caress each otehr with lasers is it?
You're such a hardcore PvPer
Oh my I can't stop laughing.
Anyways, we already have arenas. It's called "Empire Wars" and you get teh chance to shoot a whole bunch of people for a nominal fee.
So, we could have more way to shoot each other, and you're saying that you want to stay at the state the game is now ?
What a "real" PvPer you are, trying to prevent people to create more way to shoot each other. But that's derailing the thread. Your point of view and mine are but a repetition of what is in the thread curzon linked...
No I'm saying arenas are an artificial and restricting construct that will ruin some of the flavor of EvE's PvP system.
Unless the Arenas we pockets of space where anyone could intrude, you have no insurance and ship loss was guaranteed. In which case, I'd be all for it.
Is that what you were advocating or were you advocating arenas like the one that exists in every other lame PVE MMO. |
Ares Lightfeather
Gallente |
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:06:00 - [ 65]
Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 13/11/2007 14:08:07
Darken two, it is what is proposed, except for people intruding. Ship are lost, and high-sec only.
|
Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:13:00 - [ 66]
Wow, that's awful, but not terribly surprising given their past track record.
I'd always thought it was odd that there were all these modules that were completely useless in PvE due to rats cheating.
And I'd always supposed that there were a lot of carebears, but damn.
This makes the fact that there are never any high-sec research slots open all the more ridiculous.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
[ 2007.11.12 17:22:16 ] (combat) CCP's Lack of Perspective II beam perfectly strike's CCP's Foot, wrecking for 23423090.27 USD.
Perhaps I should give up on my year long campaign to get the GUI fixed and just make that my sig. |
Darken Two
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:18:00 - [ 67]
Originally by: Ares Lightfeather
Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 13/11/2007 14:08:07
Darken two, it is what is proposed, except for people intruding. Ship are lost, and high-sec only.
Yea sure if there's no insurance and ship destruction guaranteed, why not. |
Aakron
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion |
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:32:00 - [ 68]
For the 2x combat characters that I have, which operate in lowsec/0.0, I have 6x other characters that never leave highsec, scouting, checking market prices, making money, engaging in industry.
The figures are heavily skewed, if alts and highsec characters could be associated with a lowsec/0.0, or highsec merc/empire war pvper, I would hope that the number of players interested in combat and lowsec still outweighs those who are only interested in living in highsec. |
Arenis Xemdal
Amarr
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:38:00 - [ 69]
Its very simple, empire offers enough money that you can grind for all your character-specific achievements in a reasonable amount of time. Nearly every single in empire you ask will say something along the lines of "when we have enough ISK, we will try 0.0".
At one point in time, mining low end ore was all you could do in high sec, and it still had plenty of people in it doing that and trading goods. Thats all it should be for, because it takes a pretty massive suspension of disbelief to accept that tens of thousands of pirate ships could infiltrate empire on a daily basis just so you could blow them up.
I don't understand why there is a middleground such as lowsec if CCP isn't going to force people to at *least* go there to be able to progress. Curzon Dax, you are making a classic carebear fallacy.
-First, is your assumption that majority means anything in EVE, when it quite clearly isn't a democracy.
-Second is the assumption that CCP isn't putting high end content in 0.0 to entice YOU to finally leave empire, and not satisfy the existing 0.0 crowd.
-Third assumption is that the pvp system is broken because most people would prefer security over risk.
-And fourth assumption, that EVE is a PVE game or even that PVE in EVE is any fun.
Arena combat is probably one of the worst ideas anyone has, or will ever mention. Right up there with warp to zero, lvl 4 agents in empire, and capital ship insurance. |
Malachon Draco
eXceeded
|
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:42:00 - [ 70]
YOu can't base decisions on this observation alone. I have 5 characters in 0.0 atm, 2 in lowsec, and 11 in highsec. But only 2 of the trained ones are in Empire, the other 4 are in 0.0. Highsec mostly has my trading alts, some semi-discarded scouts, while lowsec means cyno-alts.
|
OneSock
Crown Industries
|
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:48:00 - [ 71]
Originally by: Arenis Xemdal
Nearly every single in empire you ask will say something along the lines of "when we have enough ISK, we will try 0.0".
I think I have said that a number of times, problem is with each patch and round of nerfs that time is getting further away. I try and make enough money and skills then when I do have enough money CCP come up with a damn gallente/drone nerf and now I don't have enough money to be thowing away drones in PVP, and need to spend more time skilling gunnery cos my primary training was droneboats..... NOS, Damps, drones. Back to the sodding drawingboard for me a no 0.0 anytime soon. |
Thorek Ironbrow
Caldari
CAPS Holding
Capital Storm |
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:50:00 - [ 72]
Originally by: Curzon Dax
The statisticians at CCP have spoken. The majority of Eve thinks that the PvP system we currently have absolutely blows and that PvE content is more fun and invigorating.
I kind of disagree with that. I hate most of the PvE content. The only thing I like is Loyalty Points, using them to buy things, and Deadspace complexes. The only problem for me is that this game requires a few months or so to actually become good. I would move to 0.0 security, but I still have to train up certain skills, then find a 0.0 sec corp/alliance that will accept me, then get out there without getting killed by gate campers. I also don't like the fact the only dead space complexes I can get to, require a frigate, and sometimes a Destroyer is allowed. Being someone who prefers to stick to T1 ships, this makes it incredibly hard for me to find anything worth doing. |
Ulstan |
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:53:00 - [ 73]
I don't want arena combat, but I *do* eagerly look forward to factional warfare, which will 'feel' right and actually (I hope) have a point.
I feel like there is enough for me to do in hi sec space, I don't currently feel drastically more content is needed there.
If CCP works a lot on 0.0 perhaps they are trying to change it to attract more people? Makes sense to me.
|
Thorek Ironbrow
Caldari
CAPS Holding
Capital Storm |
Posted - 2007.11.13 14:54:00 - [ 74]
My idea to solve the problem of "Not enough people go to low sec" would be to add more belt rats, and give them bigger bounties. I would go to low sec straight away and start killing people trying to steal my pirate bounties if they did that. |
DarthMopp
Gallente
I.D.I.O.T.
Sev3rance |
Posted - 2007.11.13 15:09:00 - [ 75]
Well....if CCP would ask me (which they won´t) would suggest that they remove concord from every area except for 1.0 and for some Newbies training grounds (2-5 Systems per faction).
Which would have the following advantages
1. PvP possible everywhere except 1.0
2. Moneymaking Chars for the 0.0 PvP´ers would be as vulnerable as Empire Carebears. Lets see how long they can afford their shiny ships if they will loose their ability to safely make money in HighSec
3. If EvE is supposed to be a harsh and cruel world then let it be this way. No half hearted things.
4. Lets starts some real faction Wars....NPCs invading Systems with all thats possible. Even Capitals. Force the players to build up alliances to get their systems back.
Make EvE more dangerous.
|
Arenis Xemdal
Amarr
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance |
Posted - 2007.11.13 15:12:00 - [ 76]
Originally by: OneSock
Originally by: Arenis Xemdal
Nearly every single in empire you ask will say something along the lines of "when we have enough ISK, we will try 0.0".
I think I have said that a number of times, problem is with each patch and round of nerfs that time is getting further away. I try and make enough money and skills then when I do have enough money CCP come up with a damn gallente/drone nerf and now I don't have enough money to be thowing away drones in PVP, and need to spend more time skilling gunnery cos my primary training was droneboats..... NOS, Damps, drones.
Back to the sodding drawingboard for me a no 0.0 anytime soon.
Just because you find easy excuses to stay in empire with each new patch doesn't make that claim any valid. You see, as time goes by, you earn more isk and skillpoints. Now suddenly its gone from "I don't have enough money to compete in 0.0" to "its too expensive to be in 0.0". I personally know people who made billions in empire running missions, then went to 0.0 in a pimped out ship and a month or two later they had nothing. Some people would rather be Kings of Nubville and pretend they're playing EVE, than go to 0.0 after years of playing and billions in the bank to suddenly realize they're newbs again because they don't know how to handle themselves after all. The truth is, relying on players to decide when they're good and ready results in this situation. A lot of people being hesitant, and eventually quitting the game because they get frustrated that a lot of EVE's content is beyond their reach, and would rather quit in anger than start learning humility or teamwork. Empire should be for newbies, traders, and low end miners. Lowsec should be for people learning the ropes in corporate management, teamwork, and pvp. 0.0 should be the base standard for anybody looking to spam pos, build capitals, get rich, and become famous. Take my advice OneSock, all the things you mentioned won't help you one bit. Go to 0.0, get some experience, and have fun because skillpoints and isk will *never* make up for ignorance. That I guarantee. |
Lord MuffloN
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore |
Posted - 2007.11.13 15:14:00 - [ 77]
Okay, someone explain to me why the majority of EVE is screwed? Perhaps it's thanks to my fever I can't understand anything Curzon is about, so someone please do feel free to enlighten me what this fuzz is about. |
Mr Broker |
Posted - 2007.11.13 15:18:00 - [ 78]
you're pretty stupid curzon, learn how to interpret statistics will ya? |
Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore |
Posted - 2007.11.13 15:20:00 - [ 79]
Hm, as an empire/lowsec dweller, I don't really feel like I'm getting shafted... |
Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
|
Posted - 2007.11.13 15:27:00 - [ 80]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Edited by: Wrayeth on 13/11/2007 13:53:06
I have two 1 million skillpoint alts (no skill training on them at all) in highsec, but my 44 million skillpoint main is almost always found in 0.0 or lowsec.
I expect something similar is true of most players that live out here, thus inflating the highsec numbers drastically.
I've also got two untrained alts on my account - one is for selling stuff and one for transporting stuff towards and from low-sec. One *never* is exclusively in Dodixie fed navy station, and one is there only 90% of the time. CCP has made it a prerequisite for any pirate which wants to make a profit to have at least one (somewhat trained) high-sec alt or two untrained high-sec alts. |
Plutoinum
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis |
Posted - 2007.11.13 15:30:00 - [ 81]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 13/11/2007 15:32:01 Originally by: Curzon Dax
Virtually all of these things are aimed at the 0.0 players. Some of them apply to the lowsec players. Why is it that 99% of the content released / changed in Eve caters to the absolute smallest minority of players?
Dunno, because you carebears are playing the simple stuff that doesn't need much balancing. EVE is a pvp game with some pve content that is somehow required for completeness. PvP content always needs continuous work/balancing to make/keep it good, especially if a game claims to be a pvp game, which EVE does. Yes, you can flame me now.  |
ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless. |
Posted - 2007.11.13 15:59:00 - [ 82]
Originally by: Ares Lightfeather
Originally by: ry ry
(...)
Reading comprenhension lvl 1 needed much ?
What curzon proposes is to replace the loot stealing mechanisms used to have consensual pvp in high sec by a CCP-made mechanisms...
In other word :
- no changes at all in low and 0.0 sec.
- easier to PvP in high sec.
Doesn't change the fact that his conclusion is wrong, CCP shouldn't care about high sec that is profitable enough to attract 78% of people there, and should do exactly what they are doing now, try to attract more people to low and 0.0 sec.
right. except i was talking about was the arena combat bit at the bottom mongchops. |
Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162 |
Posted - 2007.11.13 16:38:00 - [ 83]
Originally by: Tarminic
Hm, as an empire/lowsec dweller, I don't really feel like I'm getting shafted...
You wouldn't. They used lubrication in your case. |
Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.11.13 16:42:00 - [ 84]
For everyone pointing out that it was a snapshot, or that it Empire mostly consists of alts, or referencing your main on lowsec / 0.0 and your army of highsec alts...
1. The only stats we have to work with are the ones that CCP just provided. Deal with it.
2. As a previous poster said, regardless of what you think the "actual" numbers might be, I'm more right than you are. Open your map, display by number of people currently in space, or docked and active. You'll see a tremendous amount in Empire, and a very few number in lowsec and 0.0. The truth is that the majority of players...that's right, based both on what the map says at any given moment on any given day without fail...and what CCP has statistically offered us as redundancy to what the map says...most players are carebears in Empire.
Now, a thought on the arena bit:
I want PvP, and I'm not going to engage in a fleet blobbing lagfest, a gatecamp, or a roaming gang looking for a gank. That pretty much rules out 0.0 and lowsec. I'm left with can-flagging in Empire. Adding an arena system in there where people are free to flag to each other and kill each other without fear of interference is not creating an artificial boundary, its removing one.
Its removing the idea that people who want to fight each other can't take the gloves off and duke it out whenever they want in private. Remove the restriction, let us freely PvP each other in highsec without needing to can flag. |
Ares Lightfeather
Gallente |
Posted - 2007.11.13 16:43:00 - [ 85]
Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 13/11/2007 16:47:33 Quote:
Curzon, if you take 'proper' pvp out and replace it with arena combat
I was answering this. Quote:
4. Arena combat is an ADDITIONAL form of PvP, not a replacement for existing PvP.
I was paraphrasing that in my answer (this is taken from curzon's post). Which means, unless the word "additional" doesn't mean what I believe it means, that it doesn't replace anything, just adds. So, please, by all means, explain to me how my post is wrong. Even if I disagree with Curzon on the % analysis, because he ignores the influence of alts and newbies, and because I'd rather enhance low sec and 0.0 sec than high sec, which is already popular enough, the "arena" bit still is a good idea, not matter how you look at it. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation |
Posted - 2007.11.13 16:46:00 - [ 86]
Originally by: Curzon Dax
1. The only stats we have to work with are the ones that CCP just provided. Deal with it.
Which means your interpretation has to work with it. Not you can say whatever you want, and it is our fault. Or you should take it as what it is, a snapshot, and not the word of god. |
Zy Nox |
Posted - 2007.11.13 16:51:00 - [ 87]
Meh. Statistics dont mean to much imho.
Tons of those high-sec chars will be alts, mission running/trade/rnd/market ect.. Another big bunch of them wll be newer players who havent made the jump to a low-sec/0.0 operation yet. I know plenty of people with 2 accounts, 6 chars, only one of which is active in 0.0. That one active 0.0 char is however the "main" and most played char.
Also it's not like every change is angled at low-sec/0.0. Lots are angled at pvp in general which also happens in high sec.
|
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka. |
Posted - 2007.11.13 16:55:00 - [ 88]
Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 13/11/2007 16:58:23 Originally by: Curzon Dax
Edited by: Curzon Dax on 13/11/2007 09:06:48
Latest Dev blog here.
So...9% of players live in 0.0 and 13% of players live in lowsec.
as usual statistics are probably lieing to us... What is that % based on? a snapshot of (location of) ships at downtimeThat definately gives us an accurate idea of how many players 'live' in 0.0... NOT. What about all the 0.0 players who are shopping in Jita, or have retired to Empire for a month, etc. It's like saying a University as a 90% pass rate in Art History and then finding out they only had 10 pubils study it last year. Taking a single snapshot and drawing these types of conclusions is made of total fail. We need much more information to take a holistic view of where people live and the impact of that on the game. oh and saying 'deal with it' is just really stupid. How about you just deal with the fact that you don't actually have enough information to make an properly informed post on the topic and stop posting.  |
Elmicker
Wreckless Abandon |
Posted - 2007.11.13 16:56:00 - [ 89]
Originally by: Curzon Dax
1. The only stats we have to work with are the ones that CCP just provided. Deal with it.
You're absolutely right. The only statistic provided is "9% of characters at the time of the snapshot were in 0.0". That does not mean "9% of players live in 0.0". |
MITSUK0 |
Posted - 2007.11.13 17:00:00 - [ 90]
"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that." - Homer J Simpson  |
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