| Author |
Topic |
Shar Tegral |
Posted - 2007.10.02 02:04:00 - [ 61]
 Originally by: jongalt
thank you for your candor, shar tegral.
Sorry if I seem a bit touchey about this topic. It's just one of those things that does tend to set me off. Just because it appears that most people in Eve are some form of grifter by nature, always playing some angle to get over on everyone else, does not mean that everyone is of that mold. I can honestly say I've never done a dirty deal in Eve. Never stabbed someone in the back nor have I ever exploited my way to a win. I always do as I say and mean what I say. Nobility is not a foreign concept to me and I see it in others on a regular basis. Here and elsewhere in game. So for the purposes of this thread, where we are talking about the betterment of this game that some of us have invested 5 - 6 years of effort in, realize that our purpose is not about getting ahead. We are all already ahead. Way ahead. We do care about where this game is going as we pretty much intend to be here to turn out the lights. And we want the game to grow, develop, and linger as much as any Dev. In fact, most of us who are trying to be active in the realm of game improvement have vigorously been so for most of those years I mentioned. This is not a new effort in any way. Just something you have not seen before but many have not been here long enough to know that. PS: For the jerks that like to say, "Well if you think you know so much apply to work at CCP"... I don't care to live in Iceland so stfu.(You do know that is a job requirement right?) |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
|
Posted - 2007.10.02 04:01:00 - [ 62]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: jongalt
thank you for your candor, shar tegral.
Sorry if I seem a bit touchey about this topic. It's just one of those things that does tend to set me off. Just because it appears that most people in Eve are some form of grifter by nature, always playing some angle to get over on everyone else, does not mean that everyone is of that mold. I can honestly say I've never done a dirty deal in Eve. Never stabbed someone in the back nor have I ever exploited my way to a win. I always do as I say and mean what I say. Nobility is not a foreign concept to me and I see it in others on a regular basis. Here and elsewhere in game. So for the purposes of this thread, where we are talking about the betterment of this game that some of us have invested 5 - 6 years of effort in, realize that our purpose is not about getting ahead. We are all already ahead. Way ahead. We do care about where this game is going as we pretty much intend to be here to turn out the lights. And we want the game to grow, develop, and linger as much as any Dev. In fact, most of us who are trying to be active in the realm of game improvement have vigorously been so for most of those years I mentioned. This is not a new effort in any way. Just something you have not seen before but many have not been here long enough to know that. PS: For the jerks that like to say, "Well if you think you know so much apply to work at CCP"... I don't care to live in Iceland so stfu.(You do know that is a job requirement right?)
They have offices in Georgia now. |
Shar Tegral |
Posted - 2007.10.02 04:05:00 - [ 63]
Originally by: Dr Slurm
They have offices in Georgia now.
Yeah, but I've not seen any job offers from CCP in Georgia. (That would tempt the hell out of me though as I'm hoping to retire in the Carolina areas.) |
Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations. |
Posted - 2007.10.02 08:34:00 - [ 64]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Yeah, but I've not seen any job offers from CCP in Georgia.
http://ccpgames.com/jobs.aspx Filter by Atlanta (that's in Georgia. They have an airport there, but not much else I'm told. Oh, and some news agency.). |
Shar Tegral |
Posted - 2007.10.02 10:53:00 - [ 65]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Filter by Atlanta
Bleh, updated since I last looked. Bleh. |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.10.02 11:24:00 - [ 66]
Originally by: Shadarle
Edited by: Shadarle on 01/10/2007 19:01:23
Basically people are saying the Dev's should be lazy and not post here because if they did post here they would be unable to avoid destroying the market by undo influence and they would only take advice from a tiny clique and wouldn't be able to read the comments others made.
I have a bit more confidence in a dev's posting ability and intelligence than some posters here it seems. Perhaps I am wrong to have such confidence and perhaps the lack of posts proves me wrong... but I guess I'm an optimist, albeit a cynical one.
Well, I wasn't trying to say that he shouldn't post at all. People have been disputing his claim of the amount of time it would take for him to have an active presence. I've been pointing out that there are pitfalls for him that means him maintaining an active presence would be a lot more work than us maintaining it, which may explain why he feels he can't make that commitment alongside the other work he is doing. Originally by: Shar Tegral
Blah, blah, blah. Do I strike you as someone who gets by on who I'm friendly with?!?
Where did I ever say that you were? My post was in reply to you beacuase you commented on the subject, not because I'm accusing you of being part of it. Originally by: Shar Tegral
We do care about where this game is going as we pretty much intend to be here to turn out the lights. And we want the game to grow, develop, and linger as much as any Dev.
So do I. I'm saying what I'm saying because I do care. I was under no illusions about the rections i would likely get, I knew this was not going to earn me any popularity. I raised it anyway, because it's more important than my popularity. Originally by: Shar Tegral
I can honestly say I've never done a dirty deal in Eve. Never stabbed someone in the back nor have I ever exploited my way to a win. I always do as I say and mean what I say. Nobility is not a foreign concept to me and I see it in others on a regular basis. Here and elsewhere in game.
I can say the same. Whether you believe me is up to you. If you genuinely thought that the things I've stated are true, what would your reaction be? What would your nobility and desire for improvement of the game compel you to do? Even if there was a possibility you were mistaken? I would be overjoyed at being wrong about all this. I don't want it to be true. If I'm wrong, the community can vote with their silence, and I'll never mention it again. Anyway, dragging this kicking and screaming back on-topic. Even if there is no clique, the Dr would still have to bear in mind that the actively posting population of the forums is a relatively small section of the playerbase, and is unlikely to reflect the full range of player opinion and activity. Yes, any and all players could post, but a large number of them won't. While it may seem easy to just say that the ones that are posting are making the effort and deserve it, the Dr can't afford that luxury if he want's a truly unbiased view of what's going on - and bear in mind here I'm talking about sample bias, not personal bias. While this forum could be a valuable source of information, it can only be one of many, and cannot be allowed to swallow up a disproportionate amount of his time (as it could easily do with unfettered interaction). And frankly, I trust the Dr more than our speculations when it comes to determining what is, and is not, a reasonable time commitment given his overall workload. |
Shar Tegral |
Posted - 2007.10.02 12:49:00 - [ 67]
Originally by: Matthew
So do I. I'm saying what I'm saying because I do care. I was under no illusions about the rections i would likely get, I knew this was not going to earn me any popularity. I raised it anyway, because it's more important than my popularity.
I disagree. I think it is all about your popularity and that is why you have brought up the issue as you have. Sadly, you are just another one of those who think that challenging what appears to be "convention" may score you some sort of point(s) when all you are really doing is proving how little you actually know. But you can through alot of text at it so I'll grant you something. I just wish it was something relevant to the topic at hand or this forum in general. If you were wondering, I'm out right challenging and denying your tone of "Mr. Reasonable". No matter which way you try to spin your point there is still one thing missing... a relevant point. |
jongalt |
Posted - 2007.10.02 14:20:00 - [ 68]
whether or not matthew is "right" or "wrong", his points are worth considering. anything less could be interpreted as "arrogance", perhaps even "naive". thinly veiled insults (in any context) add nothing.
sacrificing grace in order to gain power is not The Best of All Possible Worlds, is it?
-jg. |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Native Freshfood |
Posted - 2007.10.02 14:20:00 - [ 69]
Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 02/10/2007 14:22:32 Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
but hey, as long as that group completely funds each other's projects - more power to them. when they try to push that onto the general populace...
And here is one I generally is respect even if he seems to like to spit at this community when he gets the chance. The thing he doesn't say is that he was at the head of a failed ipo. There is usually only two kinds, successful or scam. To have a failed one is a unique honor. He should feel free to tell us all about it.[/justify]
which ipo is that? and i'll tell alllllll about it. i like talking especially when i'm stuck at work for my 9th day of 12 hour shifts straight with NOTHING to do but surf da intarwebs. but if it's lame, i'll bring up your demonification of some dude based upon faulty/hasty research on your part (not me, that other dude, you know who).  edited: oh, and i do more than spit, and i do it to everyone i honestly believe (i.e. a fair amount of non tin foil truth) is a fraud, blatantly (and arrogantly) wrong, or is a LIAR. |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Native Freshfood |
Posted - 2007.10.02 14:28:00 - [ 70]
Originally by: Matthew
Anyway, dragging this kicking and screaming back on-topic. Even if there is no clique, the Dr would still have to bear in mind that the actively posting population of the forums is a relatively small section of the playerbase, and is unlikely to reflect the full range of player opinion and activity. Yes, any and all players could post, but a large number of them won't. While it may seem easy to just say that the ones that are posting are making the effort and deserve it, the Dr can't afford that luxury if he want's a truly unbiased view of what's going on - and bear in mind here I'm talking about sample bias, not personal bias. While this forum could be a valuable source of information, it can only be one of many, and cannot be allowed to swallow up a disproportionate amount of his time (as it could easily do with unfettered interaction). And frankly, I trust the Dr more than our speculations when it comes to determining what is, and is not, a reasonable time commitment given his overall workload.
not sure what point(s) jongalt was referring to, and there's only maybe 3 people i'd bother to defend (because i like them and they do the right thing) and one of them quit cuz some well-respected person on THIS forum is not that good of a person; but, if the above is one of the points... dr eieio has made two posts in the same thread. he could post questions in that thread or other "dev" threads he'd create and have it in that same forum. he could take a few minutes to throw out ideas that strike him whilst researching. he could throw out ideas about things he's trying to fix (npc trading, stock market, etc). he could do a lot, with little effort on his part. he could only answer once a week, once every two weeks. surely, if he IS reading a ton of threads, then having ONE thread which he actively reads and occasionally replies to, would NOT be that difficult? he could also have experienced dev-type-posters review what he posts, before he posts, so he doesn't make any rookie mistakes and reveal too much about something. |
Shar Tegral |
Posted - 2007.10.02 16:53:00 - [ 71]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
he could take a few minutes to throw out ideas that strike him whilst researching. he could throw out ideas about things he's trying to fix (npc trading, stock market, etc). he could do a lot, with little effort on his part.
he could only answer once a week, once every two weeks. surely, if he IS reading a ton of threads, then having ONE thread which he actively reads and occasionally replies to, would NOT be that difficult? he could also have experienced dev-type-posters review what he posts, before he posts, so he doesn't make any rookie mistakes and reveal too much about something.
That's the simple point. It's all about respect to the community, imho. And even if you believe the forum segment of the community is a huge minority (which I no longer believe) this is one of the few ways to make overtures towards the community. |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.10.02 17:49:00 - [ 72]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
I think it is all about your popularity and that is why you have brought up the issue as you have. Sadly, you are just another one of those who think that challenging what appears to be "convention" may score you some sort of point(s) when all you are really doing is proving how little you actually know.
I believe you've already aired exactly what I have to say to that. Originally by: Shar Tegral
It's just one of those things that does tend to set me off. Just because it appears that most people in Eve are some form of grifter by nature, always playing some angle to get over on everyone else, does not mean that everyone is of that mold.
For someone who appears to get so easily frustrated at others doubting your intentions, you're very quick to dish it out yourself. Anyway, I do agree with you on one point. Considering the point I was intending to make in relation to the topic, I could have aired it in a better way. So if you want the point that's relevant to this thread, I'll re-state it for you from my previous post, stripped of any of the baggage of the other topic: The Dr has to bear in mind that the actively posting population of the forums is a relatively small section of the playerbase, and is unlikely to reflect the full range of player opinion and activity. Yes, any and all players could post, but a large number of them won't. While it may seem easy to just say that the ones that are posting are making the effort and deserve it, the Dr can't afford that luxury if he wants a truly unbiased view of what's going on - and bear in mind here I'm talking about sample bias, not personal bias. While this forum could be a valuable source of information, it can only be one of many, and cannot be allowed to swallow up a disproportionate amount of his time (as it could easily do with unfettered interaction). And frankly, I trust the Dr more than our speculations when it comes to determining what is, and is not, a reasonable time commitment given his overall workload. Reading down to your other post, I see that you question whether the forum-posting population is a minority. Unfortunately that is probably an issue that neither of us have sufficient evidence to truly back up. Though I suspect if we really wanted to, and he wanted to, Chribba could use eve-search to extract some relevant metrics, such as the number of unique characters that have posted in the last month. |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.10.02 17:50:00 - [ 73]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
he could take a few minutes to throw out ideas that strike him whilst researching. he could throw out ideas about things he's trying to fix (npc trading, stock market, etc). he could do a lot, with little effort on his part.
The problem with just throwing out ideas and tit-bits to the community is that you need a plan to follow up when the community grabs it and runs with it, or when they flame up and rip it to shreds. The history of other balance change "sneak peeks" is clear enough on that score. That plan needs time. If he starts throwing out stuff with no plan or realistic hope of responding or tying it all up at the other end of the process, then all you'd do is replace frustration at not being used with frustration at your efforts being ignored. That's why I think the best way to proceed is for him to release the data dumps with absolutely no steer, tit-bits etc. That way those of us who want to tinker, offer alternative analysis etc can, and the Dr gets a resource he can dip into as and when he can, and as and when it produces something sufficiently important, while not creating an expectation of a detailed dev closure on every issue that we might raise (and we would raise far more than he could hope to address). Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
he could only answer once a week, once every two weeks. surely, if he IS reading a ton of threads, then having ONE thread which he actively reads and occasionally replies to, would NOT be that difficult? he could also have experienced dev-type-posters review what he posts, before he posts, so he doesn't make any rookie mistakes and reveal too much about something.
Why can't the monthly reports be the venue for this? Personally I would rather he make fewer, more detailed responses in a structured report format, rather than lots of ad-hoc statements that brush superficially over everything. |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Native Freshfood |
Posted - 2007.10.02 17:53:00 - [ 74]
Originally by: Matthew
Why can't the monthly reports be the venue for this? Personally I would rather he make fewer, more detailed responses in a structured report format, rather than lots of ad-hoc statements that brush superficially over everything.
ask dr eieio why they can't be. have you seen him actually REPLY to anyone? or just make a post about his new report? link for his reply please. |
jongalt |
Posted - 2007.10.02 18:08:00 - [ 75]
ezoran, considering the doctor only published his econ blog this past sunday it might be a bit premature to assert he will not publish a response or to "ascribe" motivation for his "silence".
his posting history does support that he responds to his own econ blog, however there is not enough "historical evidence" to forecast the likelihood he will post in the future...
and even if he doesnt respond, there is no evidence to ascribe any motivation for his choice other than his workload prohibits a sustained and continued discussion.
but if we could take a moment to "speculate" what his motivation might be (other than workload), i would be inclined to say it is an "ethical" one or (less cynically) he is busy playing eve-online using an alt account in order to get "game-play perspective".
-jg.
|
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Native Freshfood |
Posted - 2007.10.02 18:11:00 - [ 76]
Originally by: jongalt
ezoran, considering the doctor only published his econ blog this past sunday it might be a bit premature to assert he will not publish a response or to "ascribe" motivation for his "silence".
his posting history does support that he responds to his own econ blog, however there is not enough "historical evidence" to forecast the likelihood he will post in the future...
and even if he doesnt respond, there is no evidence to ascribe any motivation for his choice other than his workload prohibits a sustained and continued discussion.
but if we could take a moment to "speculate" what his motivation might be (other than workload), i would be inclined to say it is an "ethical" one or (less cynically) he is busy playing eve-online using an alt account in order to get "game-play perspective".
-jg.
it's his second blog/report/thingie. it's not like he just did ONE and we haven't seen if he'll reply to it or not. it's not like he just posted a week ago. historically speaking, he's going to ignore the masses. |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.10.02 18:13:00 - [ 77]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Matthew
Why can't the monthly reports be the venue for this? Personally I would rather he make fewer, more detailed responses in a structured report format, rather than lots of ad-hoc statements that brush superficially over everything.
ask dr eieio why they can't be.
have you seen him actually REPLY to anyone? or just make a post about his new report?
link for his reply please.
Maybe he had the contents of these first reports mapped out before the first one was even published, and wants to get the groundwork laid before zipping off down lots of specific routes of enquiry. He probably had the basic content of the second report laid out before feedback on the first started. Not because he didn't want the feedback, but because that's what the timescales and workload dictate. Maybe that's something for a first start though - if he pre-announces the general topic of the next report at the end of each one, we could then fire up a thread to flag up what we feel are the most important things, which he can then incorporate as part of his research. That way he can still pursue a structured series of reports that work their way through the economy, get some input and involvement from us with minimal extra work, and without having to do any more filtering of his responses than he would do for the report anyway. If we want him to be more responsive, and address the topic of the moment in a more adhoc fashion, then we're going to have to be willing to accept that those responses are going to be less complete. That doesn't mean we shouldn't point out what he missed, but we shouldn't be all omgwftnoob about it (which has been worryingly prevalent in the general feedback to him so far). |
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire |
Posted - 2007.10.02 18:24:00 - [ 78]
Originally by: Matthew
Though I suspect if we really wanted to, and he wanted to, Chribba could use eve-search to extract some relevant metrics, such as the number of unique characters that have posted in the last month.
FYI The number of unique characters posting in Market Discussion during September is 578. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.10.02 19:06:00 - [ 79]
|
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire |
Posted - 2007.10.02 19:27:00 - [ 80]
|
jongalt |
Posted - 2007.10.02 19:58:00 - [ 81]
chribba,
my understanding of akita's post is that he would like to know who the top 20 posters are, what percentage of total posts they contribute, and the total character length of those posts compared with the grand total.
-jg. |
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire |
Posted - 2007.10.02 20:02:00 - [ 82]
Thanks. I might do such a check (will take a bit longer to do though) but I most likely won't reveal who the posters actually are as it in my opinion lays pretty solid ground for griefing - weather it is or is not the regular forum ho's that lands in the top 20  |
Coconut Joe
Sebiestor Tribe
|
Posted - 2007.10.02 20:20:00 - [ 83]
Quote:
DocEG says he can't be of any use in here. Care to prove him wrong ?
Considering the vitriolic *******s that is coming out of people's keyboards in this thread, I think he's been proved right. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.10.02 20:25:00 - [ 84]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/10/2007 20:37:01 Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Time's up - 1m please 
Damn, forgot about it  Sent Originally by: Chribba
Thanks. I might do such a check (will take a bit longer to do though) but I most likely won't reveal who the posters actually are as it in my opinion lays pretty solid ground for griefing - weather it is or is not the regular forum ho's that lands in the top 20
Oh, you can already tell WHO those people are anyway just by looking at the forum for a couple of seconds... I mean, top 20 people's posts must contain more than 50% of the total "volume" anyway (both size and number), they must be hard to miss... so names aren't all THAT important. If, per chance, my name does come up in any of the top20s, although I kind of doubt it, you have my permission to list my name... I don't mind flaming/harrasement. Would have stopped posting looong ago if I did.The more interesting thing is just percentage of total for the ones in the top  So, basically, just how much contribution out of the grand total do the "most regular regulars" [sic] have. |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Native Freshfood |
Posted - 2007.10.02 21:17:00 - [ 85]
Originally by: Coconut Joe
Quote:
DocEG says he can't be of any use in here. Care to prove him wrong ?
Considering the vitriolic *******s that is coming out of people's keyboards in this thread, I think he's been proved right.
it's been proved that he's of no use? |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia |
Posted - 2007.10.02 21:28:00 - [ 86]
|
Khatred
ReallyPissedOff
Guinea Pigs |
Posted - 2007.10.02 23:20:00 - [ 87]
He would be needed here for what? Oveur could and did extract data and show it and I don't think he's an economist. Or maybe we could learn again how profitable caracal bpos are. |
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