Posted - 2007.09.16 22:12:00 - [121]

 

Originally by: Happster

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Edited by: Happster on 16/09/2007 21:13:45
Siakel....sorry to say but you twist on things and make things look like their not! You say a ship is greate cause it can gank out smaller ship classes. If it hadnt been able to, someting would have been seriouse wrong. Also, just cause your able to take out a npc setup ship, doesnt mean your ship is good vs other ship in its class. Test it against same ship class, with pvp setup and your results will be totally different.

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You are utterly wrong, its obvious you don't know anything about pvp.

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I do not know what your agenda here is, but your not being honest.
Compare the ship to the classes of other races and you will see im right.

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Ok, vagabond vs zealot. Vagabond is faster, does more dps, and tank better.

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Yes, i can admit i forgot about sleipnir / claimore. But trueht is, they dont really come up as so good ships vs other command ships in game.

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The truth is you don't know what you're talking about. If I could exchange all my SP in Amarr for minmatar I'd do it in a heart beat. Sleipnir is an excellent CS and the claymore is decent gang support(compared to damnation and vulture), and skirmish warfare links are always in high demand in small-medium sized gangs.

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You can allways say that a Vaga is an awsome ship. It can go very very fast and is able to kill frigs like no tomorrow. But the trueth is that it has very very poor dps, and cant really take up the fight against a BS, not that it should either, but you make it sound like it could! You twist on things and make them look like they can conquer the eve universe on it self. Get down to earth and take the ships for what they really are, and dont sit here and write fantacy stories!

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You obviously have no clue wtf you're talking about. Of all the hacs, only the deimos and perhaps a blaster ishtar(who the hell would use one of those?) outdamages the vagabond. The vaga is widely acknoledged as the best hac in the game for a reason.

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In a sizeble gang every ship will do ok. 1vs1 is a completly other issue.

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Do you even fly minmatar? Matar ships EXCEL at 1v1s, where their superior speed is a huge factor. Maybe you should fly gallente if all you do is mwd, approach, f1-f8, web.

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I'm not going to start to quoute you as we would end up making 1 page each in this tread just for our replies, which i find stupid. Because your just going on and on about the same thing every time.

Anyway. OP was about artilleries and their usefullness / lack of it.
Point is. Artilleries are hard to fit, and not really that awsome.

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Hard to fit? Why dont you try Amarr? And artillery is excellent. Ever see a thrasher insta-pop inties, munnin raping support ships? In large fleet 1400mms do more DPS than they do on paper because everybody armor tanks in fleet(with a plate), and guess what armor is weak vs?

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Only on the maelstrom it performs better then the abaddon. It has ok alpha, but dont really outstand the other in it. Has the worst dps vs other BS guns.

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Bull****, maelstrom outdamages a rokh, and performs well in medium gang engagements with its insane AC falloff+insane shield tank. It can do high DPS while having a full tank, something no other BS can claim.

Posted - 2007.09.16 23:57:00 - [123]

 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 17/09/2007 00:01:01
about the vaga that tank better than a zealot i'm not that sure and amarr have the new sacrilege that is a very nice ship and i will not call vaga the best hac but anyway...

matar excell at 1vs1... this is a bit opinable, other races have very good ship capable to do well in 1vs1 and most of the time is more about what you fly/your fitting vs what enemy fly/its fitting... and thinking about various classes i don't see any minmatar superiority, there are good ship, some with very spicific and peculiar capibility, but no solopownmobile... and anyway... how much is relevan 1vs1 in eve? not that much imo, as the most "serious" pvp is generally made in gangs.

just some puntualization as, i said it from the beginnin, i have not much to complain about general close range combat and minnie indeed have some very nice ships (as other race have too), vaga among them...

now about arty... yes many fleet ships use armor tank but imo that should be not a balancing factor, we saw in rev the introduction of new t2 battleships and 3 of them where meant to be dedicated fleet bs.
among these 3 2 where shield tankers... as you see ccp tried to introduce 2 shield tank fleet ships meant to cover caldari lack of such boats and to replace the pest in such enviroment.

if mael was not such an huge failture in its supposed role then we will have 2 armor tankers (amarr and gall) vs 2 shield tankers (rokh and mael) making the (supposed) dmg advantage quite pointless and we don't really know how new bs will be, it can still be possible to see very specialized fleet bs (or anyway ships that will outperform what we have in such role) and then i bet they will be 2 armor and 2 shield tanks.

and mael outdps rokh but you mostly see pests in fleet as they are cheaper and offer very similar performances, pest also have the same dps as the rokh and both minnie ships lacks a good fleet defensive bonus.

also is not true that the mael is the only ship with high dps and good tank... raven is quite good at that too

speaking of mid size gangs imo the amount of hps you repair is not that important, if you are going to live/die or last enought is more a matter of logistic support and ew, in such situation the booster bonus is not as effective as in a small gang situation, res bonus is way more usefull and anyway for my taste a high hps if not passive tank is overall more effective as it can even free mids for ew or "utility" (of course is just my taste)

and @Enigmier, i don't use quickfit :P and we had alredy someone that said split weapon is good and so on... then posted a phoon setup that i think few phoon pilots will even consider.

you speak about versatility, but split weapon is actually against it as you need more mods to make your different weapon systems effective, expecially considering that they lack any kind of sinergy... less slots... less versatility

Posted - 2007.09.17 14:20:00 - [125]

 

Gamesguy..you really amuse me.

Again, try to stay real. Post all of the picture not just what you wish to show.

If you compare ships like you do, also post the ships that are better then minmatars in that class. That way ppl can see the real picture and not just what you want it to be.

As in most ship classes you will find ships better and worse then minmatars. You state that minmatars excell in 1vs1? That implies minmatars are at the top of each ship class which is far from the truth!


The speed you so much speak of is only important for the smaller ships. When it comes to bigger ships, tempest and maelstrom speed difference to the other ships means nada.

Do you actually understand how falloff works?
Yes, we do fight in falloff. But, again this has its ups and downs. We usally manage to keep out of other races optimal. But, by fighting in falloff you also reduce your own dps. Hail which is our highest dps ammo for AC's has falloff penelties which makes it hard to actually fight in a good falloff that keeps you safe. Thats why most minnies actually use Barrage instead.
For info. With 800MM guns, hail has optimal at 3k, and falloff at only 9,6k doesnt make much of a falloff :\
On the other side, barrage has 6k optimal and 28k falloff. Which is freaking great!! But the dps is reduced vs Hail.

If you want to debate something, be honest and post it all. Dont post just half of the truth to make things look like you want it to be.

Your so good at listing up things. So list up all 4 ships in that class. Then we can see the real relations between the races. Which race performs best vs other. Saying this ship is better then that shows nothing in itself. Its not a messure of how well the ship is in that class.

Posted - 2007.09.17 14:49:00 - [127]

 

Originally by: The Doct0r

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well i've only ever flown matari ships (+3yrs and counting) and they are pretty much ok. Compared to other Race ships, you do need high SP's to fly them competently.

IMO only 1 ships needs looking at:

Nidhoggur.

Even now (and i've got silly amounts of cap sp's) I will not put this on the front line. Have a look through other replies in this post and you'll see why.

And modules.. only 1 really comes to mind:

1400mm II

As others have stated, this will always have cr*ppy tracking, but even i've noticed the dmg dropoff as of late.. Just boost the alpha a bit and it should be fine.

Obviously, we don't have a proper dedicated EWAR ship, but i'm gonna wait for the new ships to come out and see what's what before making any more calls on that one.

What I have noticed in my time of playing is that each Races unique abilities seems to be getting more and more blurred. Sort that out, and make everyone aware of what Race is good at what, then prehaps we can all move on and carry on playing

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I agree with your post. But as im not a Minnie capital pilot, i got to ask you a question.

Didnt the carrier get a boost and became pretty useful regarding pos repping (remote shield repping)?

Posted - 2007.09.17 15:27:00 - [129]

 

Originally by: Happster

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Originally by: The Doct0r

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well i've only ever flown matari ships (+3yrs and counting) and they are pretty much ok. Compared to other Race ships, you do need high SP's to fly them competently.

IMO only 1 ships needs looking at:

Nidhoggur.

Even now (and i've got silly amounts of cap sp's) I will not put this on the front line. Have a look through other replies in this post and you'll see why.

And modules.. only 1 really comes to mind:

1400mm II

As others have stated, this will always have cr*ppy tracking, but even i've noticed the dmg dropoff as of late.. Just boost the alpha a bit and it should be fine.

Obviously, we don't have a proper dedicated EWAR ship, but i'm gonna wait for the new ships to come out and see what's what before making any more calls on that one.

What I have noticed in my time of playing is that each Races unique abilities seems to be getting more and more blurred. Sort that out, and make everyone aware of what Race is good at what, then prehaps we can all move on and carry on playing

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I agree with your post. But as im not a Minnie capital pilot, i got to ask you a question.

Didnt the carrier get a boost and became pretty useful regarding pos repping (remote shield repping)?

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Technically speaking...You are correct. However, the nidhoggur is still the "worst" carrier, simply from the horrid tank (5 low slots for armour tank, where 2 are reserved for capital armour reps does not allow a very good tank..), horrid capacitor (Which is strange, judging from our bonus to remote reps, we actually perform WORSE than other carriers in this regard because we lack the capacitor to do anything but short burst repps.)

Now, you might say that such a thing is fine, the Nidhoggur performs exceedingly well in Logistics, and to balance it out, it has sub par stats. However, that reasoning is fundamentally flawed, due to the fact that we are talking about a BONUS. For example, the Thanatos has a bonus to fighters, with 1 extra low slot (Which makes a huge difference), but no "balancing factors", such as with our sub par attributes.

So yeah, I do think our capitals need a litte more work. The Nidhoggur is not balanced, it is highly underpowered. The only reason why people miss this fact is because there are very few pilots who fly multiple carriers, and can therefore compare objectively. A carrier is a carrier, and it will always be a monstrous BEAST compared to a BS, but we should be comparing them to each other.

Posted - 2007.09.17 15:44:00 - [131]

 

Edited by: Happster on 17/09/2007 15:46:44
Victor Ivanov, thanks explaining.

My reply to the previouse post werent ment to undermining his point. More asking how come, as i dont fly them and dont got a feeling how they are :)

Posted - 2007.09.18 16:22:00 - [133]

 

I have problems fitting my machariel. So t2 bs will probably encounter the same issue.
Thats why, the energy grid requirements for 1400 mm and 1200 mm, as well as for the ac (800mm,650mm,425mm) should definetly be changed. I mean it should be diminished.
For god sake, 1400mm t2 require 3575 energy grid, and the tempest has 15500...How the hell with skill can one fit 6 1400 mm ? C'mon, what if i wanna fit some other modules ?
It doesnt have a powerfull alfa, doesnt have good tracking, doesnt have great damage or fall off...
So why the hell this weapons dont get a necesary modification ?!?

Posted - 2007.09.18 18:11:00 - [135]

 

Originally by: Happster

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If you compare ships like you do, also post the ships that are better then minmatars in that class. That way ppl can see the real picture and not just what you want it to be.

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Ok, which ships are better than the Minmatar ships in each class, then?
For T1 Frigs, nothing.
For Destroyers, nothing. For Interdictors, nothing.
For Cruisers, the Thorax and Rupture are very close.
For HACs, the Vaga is best for solo/Nanogang, and only in larger gangs do HACs such as the Ishtar and Sac start to pull ahead.
For Recons, both the Rapier and Huginn are great for solo/smallgang, the best at anti-nanogangs, and again, only outclassed in larger gangs by their Gallente/Caldari equivalents.
For BCs, only the Myrm is reliably better than the Hurricane, for CSs, the Astarte and Sleip are extremely close for solo/small gang, for FCBCs the Claymore gets one of the best bonuses for gangs, and is again great at solo/small gangs, beaten only by the Eos, and only passed by the Damnation/Vulture for larger gangs.
For BS, the Tempest is great for solo/small gang, rivaled only by the Megathron/Hyperion, for med-sized gangs the Maelstrom is amazing, and for fleets both the Tempest and Maelstrom are up at the top.
As far as Capships go, Minnies kinda suck there, admittedly.

Now, looking over that list, solo/smallgang where Minmatar specialize... oh, look. The only race that really competes with Minmatar is Gallente.

Originally by: Happster

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As in most ship classes you will find ships better and worse then minmatars. You state that minmatars excell in 1vs1? That implies minmatars are at the top of each ship class which is far from the truth!

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Well, for most ship classes you will find that Minmatar have ships at the very top of the list, actually. And no, 'excelling in 1vs1' does not imply 'best in every ship class'. I don't know where the hell you got that from. Minmatar excel at 1v1 because they have the perfect combination of speed, agility, and firepower. (For your reference, 1v1 does not mean 'Stand still and shoot each other at 100m)

Originally by: Happster

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The speed you so much speak of is only important for the smaller ships. When it comes to bigger ships, tempest and maelstrom speed difference to the other ships means nada.

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I'm sure Tempest pilots who use that speed to keep range or close range to other ships would love to hear that they're doing it wrong. And that speed advantage is extremely important in every sub-BS class. Nanogangs are popular because they're so effective, not because they look pretty.

Originally by: Happster

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For info. With 800MM guns, hail has optimal at 3k, and falloff at only 9,6k doesnt make much of a falloff :\
On the other side, barrage has 6k optimal and 28k falloff. Which is freaking great!! But the dps is reduced vs Hail.

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So wait, you have to give up damage for longrange T2 ammo!? The horror! Someone, call CCP!

Ohwait. So does every other race

And yes, you lose raw DPS in falloff. However, you gain the ability to outrange blasters or get in under Pulses guns. Both of which are great advantages if you use them correctly.

Originally by: Happster

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If you want to debate something, be honest and post it all. Dont post just half of the truth to make things look like you want it to be.

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We are being honest and posting it all. You're just ignoring everything we say and posting random vague crap like this back at us. Would you care to actually put up an argument, or just tell us we know nothing?

Originally by: Happster

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Your so good at listing up things. So list up all 4 ships in that class. Then we can see the real relations between the races. Which race performs best vs other. Saying this ship is better then that shows nothing in itself. Its not a messure of how well the ship is in that class.

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I'm not sure what you're pointing at here, but the Vaga isn't just 'better than the Zealot' it's 'The best HAC in EVE for doing what HACs do'.