| Author |
Topic |
Goumindong
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2007.09.13 18:00:00 - [ 91]
 Originally by: Nian Banks
Originally by: Ruciza
Originally by: Happster
All graphs show that arties has by far the lowest dps of all guns.
Often dps is not relevant for performance.
That is a nice to the point reply that is complete BS (and I don't mean battleship.)
No, its true. If volley damage is high, the "dps" number looks a lot lower than it effectivly is. There is nothing wrong the Arties, they have Good alpha in exchange for low long term DPS. Their DPS in the short run is higher, and lower in the long run, its pretty simple. |
Ruciza
Minmatar
The Feminists |
Posted - 2007.09.13 18:10:00 - [ 92]
There are accelerated returns because the target cannot take infinte damage. Your volley damage is high, then your side kills quicker, and with each new target the "dps clock" is reset. By chance or design Minnie also have the quickest locking times increasing the effect further. These factors make artillery a powerful system, which can do its job best in combination with target painters. |
Ath Amon |
Posted - 2007.09.13 18:26:00 - [ 93]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Nian Banks
Originally by: Ruciza
Originally by: Happster
All graphs show that arties has by far the lowest dps of all guns.
Often dps is not relevant for performance.
That is a nice to the point reply that is complete BS (and I don't mean battleship.)
No, its true. If volley damage is high, the "dps" number looks a lot lower than it effectivly is.
There is nothing wrong the Arties, they have Good alpha in exchange for low long term DPS. Their DPS in the short run is higher, and lower in the long run, its pretty simple.
then we should nerf blasters as they have both high alpha and high dps... if that is true for arties why not for blasters? alpha should be (or shoul be not) a balancing factor for all the weapons systems, not just 1 --- and about the clock that "reset" after you score a kill... no way, the dps is from all the battle, not enemy by enemy. is not that magically my weapons becomes all full reloaded and ready to fire... after an enemy is dead i have still to await the 20s rof, i have still to reload the weapons if is the case... so no "clock reset" and look to every mmo... dps/char is calculated in reguard of a whole encounter, not on the single mob of a group |
Goumindong
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2007.09.13 18:46:00 - [ 94]
Originally by: Ath Amon
then we should nerf blasters as they have both high alpha and high dps... if that is true for arties why not for blasters?
alpha should be (or shoul be not) a balancing factor for all the weapons systems, not just 1
---
and about the clock that "reset" after you score a kill... no way, the dps is from all the battle, not enemy by enemy.
is not that magically my weapons becomes all full reloaded and ready to fire... after an enemy is dead i have still to await the 20s rof, i have still to reload the weapons if is the case... so no "clock reset"
and look to every mmo... dps/char is calculated in reguard of a whole encounter, not on the single mob of a group
In a fleet there is clock reset, because the opponent doesnt attempt to warp out until he starts taking damage. In a smaller gang there is clock reset because the opponent doesnt turn his tank on until he starts taking damage. Blasters only have high alpha with Neutron blasters, and have range and issues with using lots of PG and requiring the ship be right next to the one its shooting. Artillery has no such issues. |
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir |
Posted - 2007.09.13 18:49:00 - [ 95]
Ok heres a scenario, a common one.
There are two fleets, both with a dozen+ battleships. Various races and fittings but in one of these fleets we have our minmatar artillery pilot.
This pilot as with all the rest of his fleet will be obeying the fleet commander.
Ok now the combat is about to start, the minmatar pilot targets all the ships that the FC called as primary.
The FC calls the first ship in the minmatars target list and everyone fired, BAM! One volley from a dozen or so ships pops the primary target.
The FC then quickly calls for everyone to shoot at the 2nd target, Damn! The Minmatar pilot has to wait for his weapon to be ready to fire again. Damn! The first volley from his fleet didn't quite pop the ship, if only he could fire, then bam he shoots but the enemy pilot had time to repair a little so still no kill. Then bam! The ships poped by his friends just a few short seconds after he fired and the primary is down.
See the issue here? It may be vague but when your slow to fire and lack true punch then your shots can be worthless, in the process ofcourse without your volley to pop a target ship, one of your own may go down from faster rof enemy battleships.
I see slow hard hitting only useful in some cases. But consistant high dps will always be better. |
Ath Amon |
Posted - 2007.09.13 18:59:00 - [ 96]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 13/09/2007 18:59:36 Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Ath Amon
then we should nerf blasters as they have both high alpha and high dps... if that is true for arties why not for blasters?
alpha should be (or shoul be not) a balancing factor for all the weapons systems, not just 1
---
and about the clock that "reset" after you score a kill... no way, the dps is from all the battle, not enemy by enemy.
is not that magically my weapons becomes all full reloaded and ready to fire... after an enemy is dead i have still to await the 20s rof, i have still to reload the weapons if is the case... so no "clock reset"
and look to every mmo... dps/char is calculated in reguard of a whole encounter, not on the single mob of a group
In a fleet there is clock reset, because the opponent doesnt attempt to warp out until he starts taking damage.
In a smaller gang there is clock reset because the opponent doesnt turn his tank on until he starts taking damage.
ehm sorry but it doesn't make any sense... even if someone warp out or start repairing when is hit... i'm firing, so that doesn't mean anything to the "attacker clock" i start to fire to guy A he warp off i have to await 20s rof to start to fire guy B as you see the fact that he warp or start to repair doesn't change anything to me, my rof is still the same, my reload time is still the same... Originally by: Goumindong
Blasters only have high alpha with Neutron blasters, and have range and issues with using lots of PG and requiring the ship be right next to the one its shooting. Artillery has no such issues.
arty have as much range issue as blasters (as it have the shortest range) it have also the worst tracking... and... even fitting is problematic as most minnie ships have a pg that keep in account ACs who have low pg requirements. as you see the situation is mostly the same... |
Ruciza
Minmatar
The Feminists |
Posted - 2007.09.13 19:55:00 - [ 97]
The clock is reset because then the enemy has lost a damage dealer, shuffling the cards anew. And in the spirit of hit and run, the Minnies should run when the dps of the enemy overtakes them. |
Happster
Polaris Project |
Posted - 2007.09.13 20:40:00 - [ 98]
Edited by: Happster on 13/09/2007 21:44:44 Originally by: Ruciza
The clock is reset because then the enemy has lost a damage dealer, shuffling the cards anew. And in the spirit of hit and run, the Minnies should run when the dps of the enemy overtakes them.
Which basicly means ever time they meet a ship at their own size :P But really to the dude that said Arties dont use a lot of PG...go read up on artilleries!! Pest has the least tank in amount of shield+armor+struct of all of the tier 2 BS. Which means its more likely to die faster for less damage. Dont take me wrong. I love my sniper pest. But, its the only use i have with my pest+artilleries. What i find weird though, is that when fitting quake in these big guns, you get a speed penelty  But, that is not part of this discussion... Edit: When using 2X Sensor boosters, the difference in locking time for pest vs other snipers, becomes very very minor. Btw! If i dont remember wrong, artilleries got a litle boost to its hit points. But, before that boost, the Abaddon had the highest alpha. |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2007.09.13 22:35:00 - [ 99]
Quote:
Ok heres a scenario, a common one.
There are two fleets, both with a dozen+ battleships. Various races and fittings but in one of these fleets we have our minmatar artillery pilot.
This pilot as with all the rest of his fleet will be obeying the fleet commander.
Ok now the combat is about to start, the minmatar pilot targets all the ships that the FC called as primary.
The FC calls the first ship in the minmatars target list and everyone fired, BAM! One volley from a dozen or so ships pops the primary target.
The FC then quickly calls for everyone to shoot at the 2nd target, Damn! The Minmatar pilot has to wait for his weapon to be ready to fire again. Damn! The first volley from his fleet didn't quite pop the ship, if only he could fire, then bam he shoots but the enemy pilot had time to repair a little so still no kill. Then bam! The ships poped by his friends just a few short seconds after he fired and the primary is down.
See the issue here? It may be vague but when your slow to fire and lack true punch then your shots can be worthless, in the process ofcourse without your volley to pop a target ship, one of your own may go down from faster rof enemy battleships.
I see slow hard hitting only useful in some cases. But consistant high dps will always be better.
You are utterly wrong, its obvious you've never been in a real fleet fight involving 50+ battleships plus support on each side. What actually happens is this. A. No competent pilots fits a repairer, and the effects of a rep is minimal, its all about hp tank/alignment to warp out. To this end, artillery have enough alpha to insta-pop a ship before the pilot can click the warp button(due to lag there is some delay). B. DPS doesnt matter as much due to the fluid nature of fleet combat, your primary/secondary/tertiary are constantly warping in and out or dying, lasers and railguns are often idle while a new target is called, and this disadvantage is really big when there is lag involved, in which case the one volley you get off is all that matters, due to minute long module activation lag. C. CAPLESS WEAPON. I cannot emphasize this enough. My abaddon runs out of cap boosters 5 minutes into a 30 minute fight, minmatar have no such issues. |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2007.09.13 22:38:00 - [ 100]
Originally by: Happster
Edited by: Happster on 13/09/2007 21:44:44
Originally by: Ruciza
The clock is reset because then the enemy has lost a damage dealer, shuffling the cards anew. And in the spirit of hit and run, the Minnies should run when the dps of the enemy overtakes them.
Which basicly means ever time they meet a ship at their own size :P
But really to the dude that said Arties dont use a lot of PG...go read up on artilleries!!
Pest has the least tank in amount of shield+armor+struct of all of the tier 2 BS. Which means its more likely to die faster for less damage.
Dont take me wrong. I love my sniper pest. But, its the only use i have with my pest+artilleries.
What i find weird though, is that when fitting quake in these big guns, you get a speed penelty
But, that is not part of this discussion...
Edit:
When using 2X Sensor boosters, the difference in locking time for pest vs other snipers, becomes very very minor.
Btw!
If i dont remember wrong, artilleries got a litle boost to its hit points. But, before that boost, the Abaddon had the highest alpha.
I love how the proponents for a minnie buff all compare the artillery's alpha to the abaddon and then they want the tracking and range of the mega. Mega has ****ty alpha, its tiny, the abaddon firing 8 tachs is like having 2 pre-nerf nos domis on you. Do you need 2 RCU IIs just to fit 8 1400mm arties? Do you cap out in 5 minutes despite constant boosting from a heavy injector?  |
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir |
Posted - 2007.09.14 06:15:00 - [ 101]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Quote:
Ok heres a scenario, a common one.
There are two fleets, both with a dozen+ battleships. Various races and fittings but in one of these fleets we have our minmatar artillery pilot.
This pilot as with all the rest of his fleet will be obeying the fleet commander.
Ok now the combat is about to start, the minmatar pilot targets all the ships that the FC called as primary.
The FC calls the first ship in the minmatars target list and everyone fired, BAM! One volley from a dozen or so ships pops the primary target.
The FC then quickly calls for everyone to shoot at the 2nd target, Damn! The Minmatar pilot has to wait for his weapon to be ready to fire again. Damn! The first volley from his fleet didn't quite pop the ship, if only he could fire, then bam he shoots but the enemy pilot had time to repair a little so still no kill. Then bam! The ships poped by his friends just a few short seconds after he fired and the primary is down.
See the issue here? It may be vague but when your slow to fire and lack true punch then your shots can be worthless, in the process ofcourse without your volley to pop a target ship, one of your own may go down from faster rof enemy battleships.
I see slow hard hitting only useful in some cases. But consistant high dps will always be better.
You are utterly wrong, its obvious you've never been in a real fleet fight involving 50+ battleships plus support on each side.
What actually happens is this.
A. No competent pilots fits a repairer, and the effects of a rep is minimal, its all about hp tank/alignment to warp out. To this end, artillery have enough alpha to insta-pop a ship before the pilot can click the warp button(due to lag there is some delay).
B. DPS doesnt matter as much due to the fluid nature of fleet combat, your primary/secondary/tertiary are constantly warping in and out or dying, lasers and railguns are often idle while a new target is called, and this disadvantage is really big when there is lag involved, in which case the one volley you get off is all that matters, due to minute long module activation lag.
C. CAPLESS WEAPON. I cannot emphasize this enough. My abaddon runs out of cap boosters 5 minutes into a 30 minute fight, minmatar have no such issues.
Hrm ONE point I should make, this is a big point that makes your reply worthless, I never said 50+ Battleships on both sides, I said a dozen which means 12. 12 and 50 is a pretty big jump, and basically all you want to say is that 50 battleships on either side makes for lag and lag means everything as you can't react and refire/reload/repair time means nothing when you have it. I agree ofcourse, hence I said a Dozen 12 twelve. As in One Two Three Four Five Six Seven Eight Nine Ten Eleven TWELVE battleships on both sides. So what was the rest of your argument again? I forget, musn't have been too constructive. Much like my reply back to you right now, Completely unconstructive but then I am Mr Shouty so Yarr! P.s. Have you ever seen a logistics cruiser repair someone? Must be unheard of. Lol. |
Happster
Polaris Project |
Posted - 2007.09.14 06:39:00 - [ 102]
Edited by: Happster on 14/09/2007 07:08:30 Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Happster
Edited by: Happster on 13/09/2007 21:44:44
Originally by: Ruciza
The clock is reset because then the enemy has lost a damage dealer, shuffling the cards anew. And in the spirit of hit and run, the Minnies should run when the dps of the enemy overtakes them.
Which basicly means ever time they meet a ship at their own size :P
But really to the dude that said Arties dont use a lot of PG...go read up on artilleries!!
Pest has the least tank in amount of shield+armor+struct of all of the tier 2 BS. Which means its more likely to die faster for less damage.
Dont take me wrong. I love my sniper pest. But, its the only use i have with my pest+artilleries.
What i find weird though, is that when fitting quake in these big guns, you get a speed penelty
But, that is not part of this discussion...
Edit:
When using 2X Sensor boosters, the difference in locking time for pest vs other snipers, becomes very very minor.
Btw!
If i dont remember wrong, artilleries got a litle boost to its hit points. But, before that boost, the Abaddon had the highest alpha.
I love how the proponents for a minnie buff all compare the artillery's alpha to the abaddon and then they want the tracking and range of the mega.
Mega has ****ty alpha, its tiny, the abaddon firing 8 tachs is like having 2 pre-nerf nos domis on you. Do you need 2 RCU IIs just to fit 8 1400mm arties? Do you cap out in 5 minutes despite constant boosting from a heavy injector?
I've never said i wanted better tracking on the artillery :P A long range weapons should be just that. Long range. Atm their a bit unbalanced as the rokh is able to outsnipe everyone :( Mega may have ****ty alhpa compared to pest and abaddon. But your mega is by far the best close range, and your dps is very good. Hehe...have you ever been a sniper? Sniping is most of the time a lag festival. Being able to skip reloading your guns is a HUGE advantage. I very often sit for a minute waiting for my guns to reload. Sometimes even longer. As your Abaddon will continue fire and fire and fire till your cap gets dried. Buu huuu huu!!! The abaddon has great alpha and great dps. You dont have to reaload. All you need to do is lock and fire, lock and fire. Btw...you whine about the cap on the abaddon. I have never heard of any amarr sniper complaining about running out of cap when sniping other ships. When fire at a pos, yes. But as said abowe. You can fire and fire for those 5 minutes you were talking about before running out of cap. But with a pest i can take 10 volleys, and then may have to wait a minute or so to get my guns reloaded. Sometimes they never reload :( Bug bug bug..... But, like everyone else in this game. Abaddon cant have it all ;) For the record. Abaddon and the pest has basicly the same alpha. |
Ath Amon |
Posted - 2007.09.14 13:44:00 - [ 103]
again about the "clock", no it doesn't reset if you pop someone lowering the opponent dps...
dps = damage dealt/duration in seconds of the encounter
so, in dps calculation it is ininfluential
and no one asked to have best tracking, best alpha and best range... at least look at the proposals and discuss them, otherwise is just trolling.
lasers have some cap problem, but also the ship can be fitted to sustain them well... if you don't belive that just look at the "best ship to shot at a pos" thread...
said that, i think that is right that lasers get better tracking, dps and possibly range, as they must use some slots to balance the higher cap compsumption, but also that as arty have some severe drawbacks too (range, tracking, fitting) it need some boost to make it more balanced... it can be in form of dps or even in form of better range.
something like... (dps boost, 1 = low, 2 = medium, 3 = high)
laser > dps 3, tracking 3, range 2, alpha 2, cap usage
proj > dps 2, tracking 1, range 1, alpha 3
rails > dps 1, tracking 2, range 3, alpha 1
|
Odium47 |
Posted - 2007.09.14 16:28:00 - [ 104]
I just want better tracking and faster fire rate and everything will turn very nice !  |
Siakel |
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:11:00 - [ 105]
First- Artillery got a slight boost to alpha when HP was increased, as Alpha was becoming weaker as it's effect was lessened by the two HP boosts. IIRC this was before the Abaddon even existed, so no, it never had the highest alpha. Originally by: Happster
I've never said i wanted better tracking on the artillery :P
A long range weapons should be just that. Long range. Atm their a bit unbalanced as the rokh is able to outsnipe everyone :(
At the cost of damage and rarely being able to use that range, yes. And Artillery are long range weapons, more than enough range to work very well/perfectly in 99% of fleet engagements. Originally by: Happster
Mega may have ****ty alhpa compared to pest and abaddon. But your mega is by far the best close range, and your dps is very good.
Blasters don't have anything to do with sniping, which is what was being discussed, and the lower alpha of rails is compensated by their superior range. Originally by: Happster
Hehe...have you ever been a sniper?
Sniping is most of the time a lag festival. Being able to skip reloading your guns is a HUGE advantage.
I very often sit for a minute waiting for my guns to reload. Sometimes even longer. As your Abaddon will continue fire and fire and fire till your cap gets dried. Buu huuu huu!!!
The abaddon has great alpha and great dps. You dont have to reaload. All you need to do is lock and fire, lock and fire.
Ermm... I think you're seriously underrating just how bad the Abaddon's cap issues are, here. When the lag is so bad you're waiting 1 minute+ for your guns to reload, how do you think the Abaddon's injector is reloading? And with the injector not reloading, how do you think the Abaddon's cap is doing? Yes, the extreme cap drain on the Abaddon is a huge downside, and complaining that you sometimes have to reload for 1 minute+ doesn't change this, because the Abaddon has the same problem, except when he finally does reload he only gets 30 seconds of firing again before his cap is dead, yet again, and he has to wait another minute for another 800 charge to load. Originally by: Happster
Btw...you whine about the cap on the abaddon. I have never heard of any amarr sniper complaining about running out of cap when sniping other ships.
When fire at a pos, yes. But as said abowe. You can fire and fire for those 5 minutes you were talking about before running out of cap. But with a pest i can take 10 volleys, and then may have to wait a minute or so to get my guns reloaded. Sometimes they never reload :( Bug bug bug.....
Err... yes, we Amarr snipers have complained about running out of cap in sniping engagements. Frequently. And, as said above, the reloading problem is just as bad, if not worse, for the Abaddon pilots. |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Black Viper Nomads
|
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:13:00 - [ 106]
Nicely written post by the OP. Being Minmatar exclusive--I'm pretty happy with the ships as they are...it just requires significantly more SP and actual pilot ability to make them shine  . No need for any boosting. |
dor amwar
Sebiestor Tribe
|
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:15:00 - [ 107]
all the alts posting with the 'minnie are fine'. don0t even need to read past the first page. as soon as anybody tries to post anything, which is rare, about boosting minmatar they come out of the wordwork. 'keep the slaves down'! i say it's time for a revolt, minmater are not fine.
- speed means nothing these days for all head gear and things are bringing these days.
- split weapons system are the worse for both the time it takes to skill them and slot use inefficiency
- alpha is not what it used to be and with the hp increase engagements last for longer where your dmg goes to nothing.
- many, not a few, many minmatar ships have the bonus backwards or just don't fit the role. maelstrom, wolf/jag , rapier (tp ... ewar?)
in gangs and fleets you might still see a few tempests, vega is still feared, huginn sometimes to catch nanos, but that is about it. minmatar are dying as a race in eve because nobody wants to spend a lot more time training for ships and weapons that are inferior. |
Goumindong
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:25:00 - [ 108]
Ath, the alpha strike capability is really that important, its the differnce between "Oh, im primary now, i am going to warp out" and "oh, im primary now, i am going to *BOOM*" |
dor amwar
Sebiestor Tribe
|
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:37:00 - [ 109]
Edited by: dor amwar on 14/09/2007 17:38:53 Originally by: Goumindong
Ath, the alpha strike capability is really that important, its the differnce between "Oh, im primary now, i am going to warp out" and "oh, im primary now, i am going to *BOOM*"
and with the size of many fleets these days, the number of ships that are going to target primary means alpha means nothing, they are going to pop regardless. with minnie lack of any tank means they pop far quicker than any other ship as well. |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion. |
Posted - 2007.09.14 17:42:00 - [ 110]
You are contradicting yourself there.
Either the alpha is useless because ships pop basically instantly - but in this case the tank is also useless, because..ships pop instantly.
If tank is useful then alpha is useful as well.
Its either both useless or either both useful. |
dor amwar
Sebiestor Tribe
|
Posted - 2007.09.14 18:01:00 - [ 111]
Originally by: Aramendel
You are contradicting yourself there.
Either the alpha is useless because ships pop basically instantly - but in this case the tank is also useless, because..ships pop instantly.
If tank is useful then alpha is useful as well.
Its either both useless or either both useful.
i see your point, but i said quicker. there is often a lag in calling and switching targets where some have a chance to survive if they have some form of a tank and are aligned. my point is that your not going to instapop anybody these days with 'alpha', as some are claiming, and that in large engagements it is often the skill of the fc and discipline of the dmg dealers to switch to secondary that determines who pops and who gets away. |
Trishan
Green Men Incorporated |
Posted - 2007.09.14 18:39:00 - [ 112]
Originally by: dor amwar
all the alts posting with the 'minnie are fine'. don0t even need to read past the first page. as soon as anybody tries to post anything, which is rare, about boosting minmatar they come out of the wordwork. 'keep the slaves down'! i say it's time for a revolt, minmater are not fine.
- speed means nothing these days for all head gear and things are bringing these days.
- split weapons system are the worse for both the time it takes to skill them and slot use inefficiency
- alpha is not what it used to be and with the hp increase engagements last for longer where your dmg goes to nothing.
- many, not a few, many minmatar ships have the bonus backwards or just don't fit the role. maelstrom, wolf/jag , rapier (tp ... ewar?)
in gangs and fleets you might still see a few tempests, vega is still feared, huginn sometimes to catch nanos, but that is about it. minmatar are dying as a race in eve because nobody wants to spend a lot more time training for ships and weapons that are inferior.
Indeed. Even the vaga (and other just over web range kiting ships) got its dps nerfed about 20% in the overheat patch. |
Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2007.09.15 01:43:00 - [ 113]
Originally by: dor amwar
all the alts posting with the 'minnie are fine'. don0t even need to read past the first page. as soon as anybody tries to post anything, which is rare, about boosting minmatar they come out of the wordwork. 'keep the slaves down'! i say it's time for a revolt, minmater are not fine.
Bull****. Look at the people who oppose a minmatar buff. I see people from veto, from MC, from bob, from snigg, I'm from Tri. All major pvp alliances/corporations. Quote:
- speed means nothing these days for all head gear and things are bringing these days.
Yes thats why we just ran amok in your home systems a day ago with MDK with a nano gang. Skirmish gangs, when setup correctly, are extrodinarilly powerful. A little too powerful some would say. Quote:
- split weapons system are the worse for both the time it takes to skill them and slot use inefficiency
Outside the recons(gallente recon have the same problem), there is TWO ships with a split weapon system. Typhoon and cyclone. Cyclone is more of a tanking ship than anything else and the phoon could use more grid I admit. If the phoon had more grid it could do more dps than everybody else would with a tanking setup. Quote:
- alpha is not what it used to be and with the hp increase engagements last for longer where your dmg goes to nothing.
Alpha is still all important in fleet fights, and have you ever seen a tempest insta-pop a rook? I have, alpha is still very useful. Quote:
- many, not a few, many minmatar ships have the bonus backwards or just don't fit the role. maelstrom, wolf/jag , rapier (tp ... ewar?)
Maelstrom is an EXCELLENT gang ship when fitted with a shield tank and falloff rigs. It deals very high DPS(almost as high as hyperion) while maintaining full tanking capabilities. Jag is one of the best AFs, wolf... is no worse than say retribution or hawk. Rapier is rightfully feared along with the huginn. Quote:
in gangs and fleets you might still see a few tempests, vega is still feared, huginn sometimes to catch nanos, but that is about it. minmatar are dying as a race in eve because nobody wants to spend a lot more time training for ships and weapons that are inferior.
Utterly wrong. I'd say 50% of our skirmish gangs are minmatar ships, thats a huge percentage. In fleet composition we still have more minmatar than amarr, any typical BS fleet we field have say 10 amarr BS, 30 megas, 25 tempests and the odd rokh. |
bldyannoyed
Estrale Frontiers
|
Posted - 2007.09.15 01:53:00 - [ 114]
minmatar PWN.
The only balanced race in game atm.
Can PvP and PvE, have close range weapons rightfully feared, ( 20km falloff on 220's = sad bad guys ) and Artillery rocks.
As popele have said, and i agree, in a fleet fight all that matters is numbers. Who gives a crap that you may have 20% more alphs than a Mega when theres 50 ships firing.
But in smaller gangs.
Oh Boy.
Muninn anyone?
Instant lock and instant agony once whn them 720's start singing. |
RossP Zoyka |
Posted - 2007.09.15 05:15:00 - [ 115]
This is some sort of prank thread gone out of hand. Why the hell would anybody boost artys or Mimnitar? boo hoo, two of your ships are not uber. The four people crying "boost" are the only four people who care. Overall, you've got the most balanced race in the game. Which is unbalanced compared to caldari and Amarr. When faction wars come out the gellente and mimnitar are going to steamroll the competition You are fitting your tempest wrong, the arty tempest is insane and that's the bottom line (alt uses mimnitar). P.S. - I never ever never never will not no way want to hear a mimnitar complain about PG issues. Amarr pay for our tracking with capacitor, you get your alpha strike for free (oh wait, you use ammo, my bad that's a really big deal ) P.S.S. - I'm racist Amarr and hate mims because I can't take the fact that my former slaves are at least 10 times better then me in small gang warfare. |
Dinamita Tona
Minmatar
Privateers
Privateer Alliance |
Posted - 2007.09.15 06:28:00 - [ 116]
I fully agree with Ath Amon
Aditionaly i sugest that two more thing should be fixed
Very common event and im on max skills in gunnery
my target is standing and im standing on my optimal, once i hit wrecking and after that almost ever i have 2-3 misses in a row - for what reason?
artys should take apart not moving target and in no way miss it
i think that some macro is making calculating max damage for each salvo, so you (or me)
can not make more damage if damage exceed preprogramed values
another thing
ships that are on high speed and aproaching straight shall suffer more damage from projectile weapons not less. Like in car crash when both cars come head on. One is slow another ist fast but both suffer maximum damage becouse of speed and mass. So i think here should be extra damage calculated.
Sorry on bad english. |
Happster
Polaris Project |
Posted - 2007.09.16 14:54:00 - [ 117]
Edited by: Happster on 16/09/2007 14:55:55
People saying being balanced equals saying beign average in everything. That is what minnies are.
Being able to shield tank, armor tank, shoot missiles, guns, and use drons. But, not able to excell in none of the abowe makes you weak!
Thats just the way it is.
Best thing with be this balanced is that its a really short path to train for other races.
But, im a strong beliver of each ship for a specific role.
For a sniper, i will never s*** out my pest.
But for pvping in a BS ill go for any other race's bs any day.
The thing with minnies is they got some really awsome ships in the frig/cruiser size.
Vaga, huginn, rapier, rifter, rupture. Even the Muninn has its uses....but i dont really like it. But can see why some say its a great ship.
The ships abowe has good pvp peformance against low sec and npcers (ratters). Some of them have too low dps to handle a ratter in 0.0, but in low sec where ppl dont fly strong ships, their fine.
What i like the most with the ships abowe is the fact they got their role. Vaga, huginn, muninn, rapier and rifter can all be used for different roles. Very nice done.
When it comes to BS, i only see the sniper pest as being a good role. Rest is like the potatoe. Dont really taste anything, but you bring it along with the good stuff.
Edit:
Noticed a tread about improving minnie EW abillities.
Meh....Lets keep the rapier and huginn as they are. Minnies arent ment for being able to use EW as caldaries. So lets keep it to webs and Target painters. Rapier + Raven = awsome combo for pvping. |
Siakel |
Posted - 2007.09.16 17:17:00 - [ 118]
Originally by: Happster
People saying being balanced equals saying beign average in everything. That is what minnies are.
Being able to shield tank, armor tank, shoot missiles, guns, and use drons. But, not able to excell in none of the abowe makes you weak!
Thats just the way it is.
No, it isn't. Because Minnies aren't 'average in everything'. Depending on the ships, they are extremely good. You have some of the best shieldtanking ships in EVE, the best nano ships, the best anti-nano ships, and extremely good turret ships. Your armor tanking ships and missile abilities are the only things Minmatar could be called 'average' in. Originally by: Happster
But, im a strong beliver of each ship for a specific role.
For a sniper, i will never s*** out my pest.
But for pvping in a BS ill go for any other race's bs any day.
Why? Minmatar have the Tempest, which is great for solo/small gang stuff, the Maelstrom, which is amazing for small-medium sized close range gangs, and then for longrange gangs either of these BS work great when set up for sniping. Originally by: Happster
The thing with minnies is they got some really awsome ships in the frig/cruiser size.
Vaga, huginn, rapier, rifter, rupture. Even the Muninn has its uses....but i dont really like it. But can see why some say its a great ship.
Along with some awesome ships in the BC size, like the Hurricane/Sleip/Claymore, and some good ships in the BS size like Tempest, and some awesome ships in the BS size like Maelstrom.. oh, wait. That covers everything but caps. Originally by: Happster
The ships abowe has good pvp peformance against low sec and npcers (ratters). Some of them have too low dps to handle a ratter in 0.0, but in low sec where ppl dont fly strong ships, their fine.
. . . What? Is this a joke? Because in 0.0 nobody ever flies Nanogangs, or solos successfully in Rapiers/Huginns/Vagabonds. Also, nobody ever flies Hurricanes/Sleips/Claymores/Tempests/Maelstroms in 0.0, because... oh, wait. People fly these in 0.0 all the time, because they're good ships. Originally by: Happster
When it comes to BS, i only see the sniper pest as being a good role. Rest is like the potatoe. Dont really taste anything, but you bring it along with the good stuff.
Because having an amazing shieldtank while doing great damage out to 50km with a Maelstrom is useless, and tank+damage isn't a role at all... ohwait, it is. It's a needed role, and the ship is great at it's role. |
Enigmier |
Posted - 2007.09.16 19:31:00 - [ 119]
for all this whining about minmatar being crap and split weapin systems etc.. i personaly have no problem with flying minmatar,
its the only race i use to pvp in and tbh i wouldnt be seen flying any gayllente or amarr and caldari trash,,
if theres a problem with the split weapons, or the dps of arty`s and all these other problems that have been listed, then its news to me..
its ok if you like to play the game in quick fit mode, setting up ships in a database to find out dps figures and then screem from the rafters "OMG WE NEED HELP, PLZ UN-NERF MATARI".
reguardles of what you may think, this game isnt all about DPS, and versatility is indeed a key factor in matari sucsess,
you may think split weapons is a curse, if so then train another race because you have no business flying matari ships.
and as to the question about arty in fleet battles, let me put this small but very important factor in there for you,
how do the majority of fleet ships fit,
well they have gunz in highs - check
they have sensor boosters and tracking comps in meds - check
they have damage mods and 1600 plates fitted in lows - check
now correct me if im wrong but isnt an armors lowest resists explosive and kinetic..?
plz remind me what matari`s main 2 damage types are on long range.. |
Happster
Polaris Project |
Posted - 2007.09.16 20:20:00 - [ 120]
Edited by: Happster on 16/09/2007 21:13:45
Siakel....sorry to say but you twist on things and make things look like their not! You say a ship is greate cause it can gank out smaller ship classes. If it hadnt been able to, someting would have been seriouse wrong. Also, just cause your able to take out a npc setup ship, doesnt mean your ship is good vs other ship in its class. Test it against same ship class, with pvp setup and your results will be totally different.
I do not know what your agenda here is, but your not being honest.
Compare the ship to the classes of other races and you will see im right.
Yes, i can admit i forgot about sleipnir / claimore. But trueht is, they dont really come up as so good ships vs other command ships in game.
You can allways say that a Vaga is an awsome ship. It can go very very fast and is able to kill frigs like no tomorrow. But the trueth is that it has very very poor dps, and cant really take up the fight against a BS, not that it should either, but you make it sound like it could! You twist on things and make them look like they can conquer the eve universe on it self. Get down to earth and take the ships for what they really are, and dont sit here and write fantacy stories!
In a sizeble gang every ship will do ok. 1vs1 is a completly other issue.
I'm not going to start to quoute you as we would end up making 1 page each in this tread just for our replies, which i find stupid. Because your just going on and on about the same thing every time.
Anyway. OP was about artilleries and their usefullness / lack of it.
Point is. Artilleries are hard to fit, and not really that awsome.
Only on the maelstrom it performs better then the abaddon. It has ok alpha, but dont really outstand the other in it. Has the worst dps vs other BS guns.
And only usefull in a sniping game.
But as said before. I pick the pest as my sniper before the mael. It's easier to replace, isk wise. Has okish range, agillity and alpha. The sniperpest is easy to handle in a sniper fleet.
But it wouldnt be unbalancing to up the alpha a bit more. And i wouldnt really care if the dps got more poor, as the guns arent usefill for dps anyway. But if nothing being done i guess that will be fine too. |
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