| Author |
Topic |
Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League |
Posted - 2007.09.11 14:30:00 - [ 61]
|
LUKEC
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance |
Posted - 2007.09.11 14:33:00 - [ 62]
Honestly lol @ this thread.
While artys are ... just another long range gun, due to "not so bright hp boost", worthless on anything except bs, ships with range bonus or dreads... exactly in same state as all other longrange guns(exception is maybe 125mm railgun, but that's due to taranis 3 medslots).
ACs... yes they seriously need good boost in Minmatar online. |
welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK |
Posted - 2007.09.11 14:33:00 - [ 63]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 11/09/2007 14:40:44
Clearly you're you're someone who isn't interested in debating the actual issue, you'd rather exchange petty snipes.
Find someone else to do it with bro.
edit: Artillery is fantastic on the recons, muninn, atleast half of the frigs and the maelstrom. It's equally as useful on the Pest aswell. Minmatar easily have the best balanced weapons systems (for pvp, even if they do take longer to train). |
Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League |
Posted - 2007.09.11 14:35:00 - [ 64]
 Originally by: welsh wizard
Clearly you're you're someone who isn't interested in debating the actual issue, you'd rather exchange petty snipes.
Find someone else to do it with bro.
I am very interested in the issue and asked you to prove your claim that artyapocs are actually used. In all honesty, I do not see how your claim could have been meant seriously, so you get what you were trolling for. |
Ath Amon |
Posted - 2007.09.11 14:41:00 - [ 65]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 11/09/2007 14:45:20 Originally by: LUKEC
Honestly lol @ this thread.
While artys are ... just another long range gun, due to "not so bright hp boost", worthless on anything except bs, ships with range bonus or dreads... exactly in same state as all other longrange guns(exception is maybe 125mm railgun, but that's due to taranis 3 medslots).
ACs... yes they seriously need good boost in Minmatar online.
i mostly agree with your statement about longrange guns (even if i will do maybe more exceptions), but you also say that they are usefull on bs and dreads and there that it comes the problem as arty imo is not on par with other guns. If long range is used in some situations here that is necessary to have a balance, to say... they are not much used so it doesn't really matter is just to close the eyes as the situations maybe will be few but also pretty important as we are speaking of fleet battles. for the ac i said in original post and in many other one that is not a real balancing factor and that they are fine, it will be nice if they get a tracking bonus, the reasons are stated in a reply and anyway is a sort of "plus" |
Testy Mctest |
Posted - 2007.09.11 14:52:00 - [ 66]
I struggle to not involve myself in this discussion. To be honest though, Ath, it's a pointless exercise; many Minmatar across the board have been arguing this exact same case since forever (or at least, since arties were brokenly good and nerfed to Oblivion).
Unfortunately, regardless of the arguments you put forward, people who fly artillery boats very little (if at all) will argue with you all day that artillery are fine because the raw numbers that they look at in quick fit don't look *that* bad, and because they have 'good alpha'.
Fortunately for them, they don't have to deal with the insanely sub-par tracking, ridiculously low DPS, insane fitting requirements, and so on. And the devs have historically ignored this problem, both on the forums and in person at the Fanfest.
Just don't bother. Make do with what we have got - a lot of which is mentioned in this thread - and forget it. It's a lost cause. |
Goumindong
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2007.09.11 15:05:00 - [ 67]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
I struggle to not involve myself in this discussion. To be honest though, Ath, it's a pointless exercise; many Minmatar across the board have been arguing this exact same case since forever (or at least, since arties were brokenly good and nerfed to Oblivion).
Unfortunately, regardless of the arguments you put forward, people who fly artillery boats very little (if at all) will argue with you all day that artillery are fine because the raw numbers that they look at in quick fit don't look *that* bad, and because they have 'good alpha'.
Fortunately for them, they don't have to deal with the insanely sub-par tracking, ridiculously low DPS, insane fitting requirements, and so on. And the devs have historically ignored this problem, both on the forums and in person at the Fanfest.
Just don't bother. Make do with what we have got - a lot of which is mentioned in this thread - and forget it. It's a lost cause.
There are no insane fitting requirements. Minmatar ships have similar powergrids when they have similar turret points. See: Maelstrom etc. The lower number of turrets and double damage bonus to make up for this lower number actually what looks like high fitting to be reasonable. If the Rupture were a 5 turret ship, its 720 II arties would fit as if they used 220 powergrid. That it is only a four turret ship with two isntead of one damage bonus, it saves on powergrid when fitting. See also : The Tempest, the Hurricane |
Ath Amon |
Posted - 2007.09.11 15:18:00 - [ 68]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
I struggle to not involve myself in this discussion. To be honest though, Ath, it's a pointless exercise; many Minmatar across the board have been arguing this exact same case since forever (or at least, since arties were brokenly good and nerfed to Oblivion).
Unfortunately, regardless of the arguments you put forward, people who fly artillery boats very little (if at all) will argue with you all day that artillery are fine because the raw numbers that they look at in quick fit don't look *that* bad, and because they have 'good alpha'.
Fortunately for them, they don't have to deal with the insanely sub-par tracking, ridiculously low DPS, insane fitting requirements, and so on. And the devs have historically ignored this problem, both on the forums and in person at the Fanfest.
Just don't bother. Make do with what we have got - a lot of which is mentioned in this thread - and forget it. It's a lost cause.
sadly i know that, but also if i think there are some problems why not to try to show them? if we look at amarr they where quite in the same situation, with problems that plague them from lot of time (and some quite similar to minnie one)... still they got a much needed boost and fix, devs removed split weapons ships assigning them a new role that permit them to deal not only em/them dmg, boosted the tracking pulses... this after many many posts of complains and many many suggestions... so how can a split weapon be bad for amarr and good for minnie? to "resign" is like to say... ah its ok the way it is now so i don't agree with that ther's a problem? let's show it and keep showing... with data and reasonable argumentations (as i hope was done in this post) also game is in constant change so the situation we had a 6 months ago is not the same as today. |
Dheorl
Surge.
|
Posted - 2007.09.11 15:35:00 - [ 69]
I'm sorry but I can't belive your still arguing about this over 3 pages (I haven't read all the 3 pages) but in all honestly I see nothing wrong with the minmatar weapons systems at all apart from like I say, make the split weapons so you can fit a slight bias towards one or the other. |
Odium47 |
Posted - 2007.09.11 17:26:00 - [ 70]
I must agree with Testy.
I can barely fit my Machariel with full engineering and gunery skills.
I cant even think of putting an aerator on rigs, wont be able even to fit 6 guns if i do.
Artillery weapons (long range guns only) need rapid improovement! this is not a joke !
The raw damage is indeed surprising, but in field it doesnt work as computed by those players who likes numbers.
Also, artilery weapond are very much dependent on the type of ammo used; the good ones are only 2: quake and tremor. Fit against and anyone can defeat a minmatar. |
Ruciza
Minmatar
The Feminists |
Posted - 2007.09.11 17:39:00 - [ 71]
Edited by: Ruciza on 11/09/2007 17:39:28 Originally by: Testy Mctest
Unfortunately, regardless of the arguments you put forward, people who fly artillery boats very little (if at all) will argue with you all day that artillery are fine because the raw numbers that they look at in quick fit don't look *that* bad, and because they have 'good alpha'.
Fortunately for them, they don't have to deal with the insanely sub-par tracking, ridiculously low DPS, insane fitting requirements, and so on. And the devs have historically ignored this problem, both on the forums and in person at the Fanfest.
Always easy to disregard arguments. Those who consider artillery a crap weapon system also deem target painters a useless module. Doubtful that that's a coincidence. |
Wideen
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc. |
Posted - 2007.09.11 18:26:00 - [ 72]
As far as the gallente hype goes, I'm not impressed. I trained gallente BS (I mostly do minmatar and originally caldari) just because I liked the philosophy of up-close and personal with high dmg, but it wasn't at all my thing when I got around to it. The blaster-ships use too much cap for being appealing to me, you can only rly gank but forget the tank. So I poked a hole in the gallente hype which only reaffirmed my affection for minmatar as being my style of play, even though I rarely use the speed or the fall-off for that matter  But it's all about how you like your coffee... |
Jack Jombardo
Amarr
Cosmic Allianz |
Posted - 2007.09.11 19:13:00 - [ 73]
even if they need buffs/fixes changes with 20% more to something are unbalanced! it would add to a 500 DPS BS with 2000 dam volley 100 DPS and 400 dam volley together with the 20 km more range you asked for. ask for overpowering?
close to every skill or bonus at EvE adds a max of 5% peer level. many just add 2 or 3%. so you realy ask for free level 4 or 5 skills?
if they balance them with +5% to something this can be a HUGHE change. |
Maeltstome
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
|
Posted - 2007.09.11 22:42:00 - [ 74]
There are alot of thing about matari that i could moan about, but ill just put forward one (since i also ave alot of praise for minnie ships).
Up the tracking on arties - i'd like to be able to have arties work on ships without tracking bonus's more effectively, as to take advatage of maintaining range with speed.
The stabber used to be able to do this with AC's faloff, but since the change to the web overload (range increase) - its become near impossible to effectively use non falloff-bonus'd ships at there intended range, without being web'd. |
Goumindong
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2007.09.11 22:49:00 - [ 75]
Edited by: Goumindong on 11/09/2007 22:49:23 Originally by: Ruciza
Edited by: Ruciza on 11/09/2007 17:39:28
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Unfortunately, regardless of the arguments you put forward, people who fly artillery boats very little (if at all) will argue with you all day that artillery are fine because the raw numbers that they look at in quick fit don't look *that* bad, and because they have 'good alpha'.
Fortunately for them, they don't have to deal with the insanely sub-par tracking, ridiculously low DPS, insane fitting requirements, and so on. And the devs have historically ignored this problem, both on the forums and in person at the Fanfest.
Always easy to disregard arguments. Those who consider artillery a crap weapon system also deem target painters a useless module. Doubtful that that's a coincidence.
everyone regards painters as a useless module. So, no its probably not. ed: i hear that people who consider atries broken also breathe. |
Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.09.11 22:56:00 - [ 76]
They should just give the good old alpha strike back to Artillery. It's just not right that Lasers beat Artillery at this now. Just increase RoF by 20% or so for Artillery and increase the damage mod accordingly.
Or perhaps, something more original: give them better modifiers for good/excellent/wrecking hits (x 1.5? so wrecking = 4.5 instead of 3).
|
welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK |
Posted - 2007.09.12 11:46:00 - [ 77]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 12/09/2007 11:54:40
nm, wont happen anyway |
Ath Amon |
Posted - 2007.09.12 14:35:00 - [ 78]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 12/09/2007 14:38:18 Originally by: Jack Jombardo
even if they need buffs/fixes changes with 20% more to something are unbalanced! it would add to a 500 DPS BS with 2000 dam volley 100 DPS and 400 dam volley together with the 20 km more range you asked for. ask for overpowering?
close to every skill or bonus at EvE adds a max of 5% peer level. many just add 2 or 3%. so you realy ask for free level 4 or 5 skills?
if they balance them with +5% to something this can be a HUGHE change.
yup, probably was not very clear due to my crappy english, the 20-25% dps boost is an initial one, then to rebalance it (and bring it back down a bit) the idea was to lower the gun capacity a bit so you will do more damage in a short brust but also have to recharge more frequently. that was just an idea of course. the problems of arty are quite clear when compared to rails comparing them is clear that the second gun system is quite superior at is better than arty for all stats (prob even for fitting) cept the alpha (that was alredy discussed and imo is not a balancing factor). also the pros of proj (damage choice and no cap usage) doesn't really apply there as large guns are mostly used for sniping or in fleet, where cap is not really an issue cept for amarr ships. to rebalance them i see 2 possible posultions, boosting the overall dps to be a bit higher than rails so that rails will have more range, tracking and fitting vs arty more dps and alpha or to boost arty optimal (or maybe faloff) so that arty will have more range and alpha vs arty tracking, dps, fitting an example of something i will consider more balanced is like in this dmg curve turrets2as you see here the mod 1400mm does a bit more dps than rails but is also quite far than laser (megabeams) that have cap problems the 1400mm (M) is actually a 1400mm with a small boost of dmg (around 15%) and rof (around 8%) but lowered ammo capacity by a 20% to rebalance it, even cumulative damage curve looked quite good, with mega and 1400mm quite close for around 90s and then laser taking a clear advantage, consider that laser have the cap drawback but also track better and don't use ammos (second one is not that big factor in fleet battles) this is just an example, to give an idea, for example with this curve optimal range can be lowered a bit, or even tried the same setting with 40% less ammo capacity (instead of 20) and the curve was a bit closer to rails |
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir |
Posted - 2007.09.12 16:53:00 - [ 79]
I read some nice ideas for balance here about arties but I just has an idea (bulb lit up above my head)
Artillery in space/ZeroG, think about that for a second, you have a lower velocity shell than a rail as it uses explosives to propell itself.
The shell is several times larger in size/mass than a rails shell and contains a larger explosive payload.
Now logic time...
Rails with their light weight highelocity shell will puncture a ships shield/armor and so should have a small signature radius and a high optimal but a low falloff thanks to velocity & mass.
The rail also should have a fast rof but a low to average damage per round.
Artillery shells on the other hand have a lower velocity thanks to its propellent system and a large mass, this means that it would have an inherent inacuracy and slower refire. the large shell would mean a large signature radius on impact, pounding the shield/armor. Because of this, artillery should have a low optimal but a high falloff (extremely high...!) plus a very high damage per round> If it hits you, even your ancestors will be rattled.
So yes that's How it should be, logicaly imho |
Odium47 |
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:18:00 - [ 80]
=D>
Perfectly logical except...
...damage on projectile wont change, because there are 3 bs that use rail guns from 2 different races...and i suspect that there is someone in programming or game design specs who dont wanna change that. |
Ath Amon |
Posted - 2007.09.13 12:42:00 - [ 81]
@Nian
i agree with you that arty should do very high dmg and huge faloff, but some time ago i tried to look at it and, with current ammos is not very balanced.
the problems are 2:
if range is given by faloff you can use quake basically in every situatuon, so devs should change even them.
second problem and a bit more complex is the damage curve as is a bit problematic to balance it right, too few faloff and they will be useless, too high and you have a weapon that hit well up to 250km, you balance it and here that you can fit 3 faloff rigs and everything is screwed again.
personally i think it is a very interesting solution that can permit to use other t1 ammos giving back the minor dmg choice advantage, but on counter will not be easy to implement and i'm not that sure that is doable due to the effects of faloff rigs. |
ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless. |
Posted - 2007.09.13 13:25:00 - [ 82]
Edited by: ry ry on 13/09/2007 13:26:43 Originally by: Ath Amon
alpha was good probably 3 years ago, now ships have so many hps that it lost most of its effectiveness... can you pop a (decent size) ship in 1-2 volley? nope...
the other aspect of alpha is overwhelming your target's tank. it's not just about the instapop. similar ideas, but slightly different. |
Happster
Polaris Project |
Posted - 2007.09.13 13:51:00 - [ 83]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 11/09/2007 14:40:44
Clearly you're you're someone who isn't interested in debating the actual issue, you'd rather exchange petty snipes.
Find someone else to do it with bro.
edit: Artillery is fantastic on the recons, muninn, atleast half of the frigs and the maelstrom. It's equally as useful on the Pest aswell. Minmatar easily have the best balanced weapons systems (for pvp, even if they do take longer to train).
Fit a full rack of 1400 guns on a pest, and you have no chanse to fit a tank. And you cant really claim you shouldnt be able to do both tank and gank as artilleries are so far from gank that you can come, because or their really poor dps. The only use for artilleries these days are for sniping. This is for BS though. I add them on my huginn and other small ship to get rid of drones. AC's on smaller ships would fill my cargo with ammo... |
Polonium 210 |
Posted - 2007.09.13 14:19:00 - [ 84]
I don't really get why people want EMP to be swapped with Fusion? ATM Minmatars have two types of high-damage short-range ammo - Barrage and EMP, one Kin/Exp based another mostly EM+bit of Exp/Kin, plus Hail. If Fusion will be made the highest damage then we'll have only Expl/Kin ammo. Where're any gains? |
Magazaki |
Posted - 2007.09.13 14:29:00 - [ 85]
Originally by: Happster
And you cant really claim you shouldnt be able to do both tank and gank as artilleries are so far from gank that you can come, because or their really poor dps.
Are we talking about the same 'pest here? Rof+Dmg bonus and all? What poor dps?? |
Ath Amon |
Posted - 2007.09.13 14:45:00 - [ 86]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 13/09/2007 14:49:06 Originally by: ry ry
Edited by: ry ry on 13/09/2007 13:26:43
Originally by: Ath Amon
alpha was good probably 3 years ago, now ships have so many hps that it lost most of its effectiveness... can you pop a (decent size) ship in 1-2 volley? nope...
the other aspect of alpha is overwhelming your target's tank. it's not just about the instapop.
similar ideas, but slightly different.
maybe vs a passive tank shield, there a very high burst damage can break it, but in other situations not really simply because to reach the point when your alpha can start to damage past the tank you need good dps so a higher dps weapon will anyway pop the ship faster and with less torubles ------ about the ammo emp/fusion for emp there will be no reason to switch to fusion, if some changes are to be made with emp actually i will like to see them more "shield damage" oriented, atm i think they have 20em 16explo 8kin (i go with memory :P) it will be nice if they replace explo with therm or just give it more em and less explo... but that's all another topic and probably not really needed |
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir |
Posted - 2007.09.13 14:46:00 - [ 87]
 For a redesign / rebalance of projectiles, a tweak and change of all artillery weapons and projectile ammunition has to be done, here is how i would balance it (not the actual numbers) All of the ammunition with -% / +% optimal should be changed to falloff, tech2 should have the same effect howeve the autocannon t2 ammunition needs to an optimal instead of falloff. Oh and nuclear ammo should stay as on optimal bonus. All artillery should have their optimal and falloff swaped with the falloff boosted by a minimum of 80%. Remember that tracking modules optimal bonuses will have negligable effect and snipers will rely on rigs which are still stacking nerfed. Autocannons should have their falloff decreased by a fair % and their optimal needs doubling atleast. ROF needs to be slowed and the damage modifiers need to be increased on all artillery. All ships with optimal or falloff need their bonuses swaped. there we go nice and easy. then let the number crunchers do the rest. P.s. done on an old pda so its a poor post in spelling anD form sorry. |
Happster
Polaris Project |
Posted - 2007.09.13 15:27:00 - [ 88]
Edited by: Happster on 13/09/2007 15:28:03 Originally by: Magazaki
Originally by: Happster
And you cant really claim you shouldnt be able to do both tank and gank as artilleries are so far from gank that you can come, because or their really poor dps.
Are we talking about the same 'pest here? Rof+Dmg bonus and all? What poor dps??
Yes. Default ROF on 1400 = 23,63 With max skills+ BS L5 = 13,4 All graphs show that arties has by far the lowest dps of all guns. Edit: Artilleries arent ment to have high dps, but high alpha. |
Ruciza
Minmatar
The Feminists |
Posted - 2007.09.13 17:01:00 - [ 89]
Originally by: Happster
All graphs show that arties has by far the lowest dps of all guns.
Often dps is not relevant for performance. |
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir |
Posted - 2007.09.13 17:34:00 - [ 90]
Originally by: Ruciza
Originally by: Happster
All graphs show that arties has by far the lowest dps of all guns.
Often dps is not relevant for performance.
That is a nice to the point reply that is complete BS (and I don't mean battleship.) |
All Channels
Ships and Modules
