| Author |
Topic |
Phorum Warrior
Minmatar |
Posted - 2007.07.10 12:47:00 - [ 1]
If I want to start a loan service, are the T1 BPOs good option for collateral, ss their prices are "fixed"? |
Martosh Toma
Gallente
Fraction Investment |
Posted - 2007.07.10 13:09:00 - [ 2]
Yea it is a great idear, when are you starting this and what do you offer for calculations on ME and PE as they increase the value of a bpo.
All kidding aside, there are t1 bpo that are worth near or more than the npc price.
But these bpo's are the kind you want to have running in production.
Any t1 bpo an owner may want to use as collateral is usually not one that is worth its investment at that time.
So in effect this loan service would be used to sell you a lot of currently low value (or unprofiteble) t1 bpo
In my opinion it would be like using pyer or mex as collateral right now, Should the prices continue their current trent you default the loan (good luck with that expensive pyer bank) and if the prices go up you pay up and thank the bank for holding on to your mex
Protecting you agains this would probebly need setting a lower % on the colateral (so you can only loan for instance 75% of the colaterals value. Of course then the bank can simply sell the collateral and default the loan at a convenient monent
So basically you are back at trust issues, and with regards to that everything in the game is equally useless as a collateral to replace trust. |
Phorum Warrior
Minmatar |
Posted - 2007.07.10 13:38:00 - [ 3]
Edited by: Phorum Warrior on 10/07/2007 13:41:36
POS structures then?
Or i can use unresearched BPOs, but this way the people should go and buy a BPO, then provide it as collateral, and once they repay their loan, they will end up with that BPOs, which they should sell to get their money back. |
Vasiliyan
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.07.10 14:01:00 - [ 4]
Is there a market for the other direction: loaning out researched BPOs? Would anyone be interested in borrowing a BC BPO? Is the loan mechanism suitable for this? |
Corporati Capitalis
Tollan Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.07.10 15:33:00 - [ 5]
Edited by: Corporati Capitalis on 10/07/2007 15:33:44 Originally by: Phorum Warrior
Or i can use unresearched BPOs, but this way the people should go and buy a BPO, then provide it as collateral, and once they repay their loan, they will end up with that BPOs, which they should sell to get their money back.
So basically if I want a loan of say 1b, I should proceed as follows: 1. Buy a BPO for 1b from the market 2. Bring the BPO to PWTAB (Phorum Warrior's Totally Awesome Bank) 3. Receive 1b from PWTAB as a loan? Nice, where can I sign up?  |
Shar Tegral |
Posted - 2007.07.10 16:26:00 - [ 6]
Originally by: Vasiliyan
Is there a market for the other direction: loaning out researched BPOs? Would anyone be interested in borrowing a BC BPO? Is the loan mechanism suitable for this?
It does work for this as I have used it, successfully, in this manner. However most of the players in Eve would rather take the collateral and buy the bpo instead of simply renting it. This is one of the reasons why this type of business hasn't taken off. (Not that I haven't tried mind you.) |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2007.07.10 21:14:00 - [ 7]
The problem is that CCP put the mechanics in place but executed them poorly.
Think of Loan as "Rent" and you'll get what I'm talking about in a second.
At the moment you try and Loan out a BPO, you put Collateral up say 1bil. And charge the person 10mil for the week the use the BPO. If they fail to return it, you can fail the loan and their 1bil deposit goes to your wallet.
The trick is to use it like the following..
Put up a BPO, Put it - I will Receive 10mil up front. Collateral 990mil, the value is covered by the total amount the person puts up.
So they now have a 1bil BPO, which they can run copies off until their heart is content, if they keep the BPO, they paid 1bil for it. If they return it, they get 990mil back, You get 10mil.
You could go higher with say T2 BPOs. Put loans up for say HAC BPOs.
I will receive 1bil.
Collateral is 5bil.
So they turn over 6billion, but after they made 100copies, they get 5billion back. Then they can turn around and make and sell the items for 80mil a piece.
However people with T2 BPOs are unlikely to do this. Although it would kick the pants in Invention if someone did start doing this. Make T2 BPOs more accessible why would anyone want to invent them.. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
|
Posted - 2007.07.10 23:07:00 - [ 8]
Edited by: Nyphur on 10/07/2007 23:08:38 Originally by: Corporati Capitalis
Edited by: Corporati Capitalis on 10/07/2007 15:33:44
Originally by: Phorum Warrior
Or i can use unresearched BPOs, but this way the people should go and buy a BPO, then provide it as collateral, and once they repay their loan, they will end up with that BPOs, which they should sell to get their money back.
So basically if I want a loan of say 1b, I should proceed as follows:
1. Buy a BPO for 1b from the market
2. Bring the BPO to PWTAB (Phorum Warrior's Totally Awesome Bank)
3. Receive 1b from PWTAB as a loan?
Nice, where can I sign up?
A better way to work it would be: 1. Buy BPO for 1b from market. 2. Bring BPO to the bank. 3. Join an alt to a special bank corp that is in a public research alliance. 4. You're given your own personal corp hanger section in this corp and your bpos are placed inside that corp hanger and locked down. 5. You can build and research your bpos as if you had them in your hanger but you cannot actually retrieve the blueprint until the loan is paid back. If you miss payments on your loan, you get booted from the corp and your bpos are siezed. |
Shaji |
Posted - 2007.07.10 23:16:00 - [ 9]
That is an awesome idea Nyph, if you make it so that the bank buys the bpo for you, and it stays locked down, and you can gradually pay back, while you research/manufacture from your BPO. No real risk, cause if the loaner backs out, you can just sell the bpo, even for profit if it is researched. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
|
Posted - 2007.07.10 23:40:00 - [ 10]
Originally by: Shaji
That is an awesome idea Nyph, if you make it so that the bank buys the bpo for you, and it stays locked down, and you can gradually pay back, while you research/manufacture from your BPO. No real risk, cause if the loaner backs out, you can just sell the bpo, even for profit if it is researched.
As long as the person taking the loan pays for the bpo and the bank can jack it if they skip payments, it's all good. |
Shaji |
Posted - 2007.07.10 23:44:00 - [ 11]
If you can afford the bpo in the first place there will be no need for loans will there? Or am I missing something here :O |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
|
Posted - 2007.07.11 00:12:00 - [ 12]
Originally by: Shaji
If you can afford the bpo in the first place there will be no need for loans will there? Or am I missing something here :O
Yeah, I think you're missing the point. If the person taking out the loan doesn't pay for the blueprint, he's not providing collateral. The blueprint just represents a security or collateral on the loan. Take step 1 out of my list. Imagine I have a megathron bpo valued at 950m. I am currently using this bpo to make copies. I need to unlock the 950m value of this bpo but I rely on the income from copying it. I hand it over to the bank and get an alt into a special bank corp that provides me with access to a research lab for copying and hanger access to a new hanger containing by bpo in lockdown mode. I can't retrieve this bpo but I can still use it. Nothing has really changed, but now the bank have the ability to take my bpo off me if I don't meet their terms. Trusting the bank is required. The only snag is that a public research alliance won't work for copying, so the POS would have to be anchored by the corp. |
Corporati Capitalis
Tollan Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.07.11 04:25:00 - [ 13]
Originally by: Nyphur
A better way to work it would be:
1. Buy BPO for 1b from market.
2. Bring BPO to the bank.
3. Join an alt to a special bank corp that is in a public research alliance.
4. You're given your own personal corp hanger section in this corp and your bpos are placed inside that corp hanger and locked down.
5. You can build and research your bpos as if you had them in your hanger but you cannot actually retrieve the blueprint until the loan is paid back. If you miss payments on your loan, you get booted from the corp and your bpos are siezed.
Indeed, that would make a lot more sense.  But you can't restrict someone's access to a specific item in the corp hangar, but only to one of the 7 whole divisions, can you? Then you'd need a new alt bank corp for every 7 new customers? |
Shadarle |
Posted - 2007.07.11 06:51:00 - [ 14]
|
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
|
Posted - 2007.07.11 21:41:00 - [ 15]
Originally by: Shadarle
But honestly... why not just sell the BPO instead.
Because my way lets you use the bpo while you have the loan out. It's just a mortgage. You unlock the isk tied up in assets while still having access to them. This only works with bpos since there's no way to allow someone to use other items without being able to physically take them. |
Taikun
Gallente
Jovoso
Teldar Paper |
Posted - 2007.07.12 06:15:00 - [ 16]
Edited by: Taikun on 12/07/2007 06:23:03 Originally by: Nyphur
Because my way lets you use the bpo while you have the loan out. It's just a mortgage.
I mentioned something similer in my *ahem* discussion about how loan scams work and how CCP should have implemented them instead. Originally by: Taikun
Personally I would prefer there to be a 'bank' type of loan interface as well.
Person A has an expensive BPO.
Person B Has loads of ISK but doesn't want to invest in a BPO.
Person A drops off the BPO in a locked hanger at a station that nobody can touch.
Person B loans Person A say, 80% of the NPC value of the BPO and has exclusive rights to use it to produce copies/ship etc with it at the station. Or sell the access rights for someone to do so.
After a predetermined amount of time, Person A either pays back the loaned $$$+ interest, or the BPO reverts ownership to Person B.
Loans in real life usally have some sort of title attached to them that the mortgagee can't abuse. (like foreclosing on a house for no reason other than to be a jerk for example)
CCP's version of of lending money is such that you can not even ask for colleral! Try seting up a loan offer and ask for collateral. How does that make sense?
Dare I say great minds think alike? Taikun |
ishkabibble
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities |
Posted - 2007.07.12 13:19:00 - [ 17]
BPO's can be used (and i think its a great idea) as collateral for loans, but you need to make it so it would be in the interest of the borrower to pay back the loan and not forfeit on that loan.
80% FMV would be a good start to charge the borrower of the loan, would buy him/her 2 weeks time to pay back loan. Interest would then start after 2nd week of loan with the agreement of every 7 days interest must be payed or else their is default on loan and collateral is seized.
does that make any sense?? |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
|
Posted - 2007.07.12 16:11:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: ishkabibble
BPO's can be used (and i think its a great idea) as collateral for loans, but you need to make it so it would be in the interest of the borrower to pay back the loan and not forfeit on that loan.
That bit's simple, treat it like a mortgage or homeowner loan. When you mortgage your house, you're still allowed to live there. Depending on the lender, if you don't keep up repayments then your house could be repossessed. In this case, the bpo would be taken if you skip a few payments. |
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
|
Posted - 2007.07.12 16:28:00 - [ 19]
Originally by: Vasiliyan
Is there a market for the other direction: loaning out researched BPOs? Would anyone be interested in borrowing a BC BPO?
I would be interested in borrowing a BC BPO. Is not something that will birng a large income but I think is better that just gathering dust in you hangar. Contact me if you are interested. |
Taikun
Gallente
Jovoso
Teldar Paper |
Posted - 2007.07.13 00:27:00 - [ 20]
Edited by: Taikun on 13/07/2007 00:26:59 Originally by: ishkabibble
BPO's can be used (and i think its a great idea) as collateral for loans, but you need to make it so it would be in the interest of the borrower to pay back the loan and not forfeit on that loan.
80% FMV would be a good start to charge the borrower of the loan, would buy him/her 2 weeks time to pay back loan. Interest would then start after 2nd week of loan with the agreement of every 7 days interest must be payed or else their is default on loan and collateral is seized.
does that make any sense??
Makes perfect sense, but I disagree about the weekly payment regime. A weekly interested regime I think over complicates for the majority of eve patrons. I mean... look at most of the posters in here? I wouldn't trust them to understand how to pour a cup of coffee let alone figure out a 12 month weekly interest cycle payment plan. Besides, miss one interest payment of 30,00 isk because you went on holiday and you lose your 1 billion megathron BPO forever? Not fair I say. Stack all that interest up and made it due with the principal I say. That way you only have to deal with 4 numbers irrespective of the loan term. The principal. Interest due. Loan term. The calculated rate of return. In other words, the loan, how much does it cost in isk, when it is due back and the relative measure of return so all loans can be compared aganist each other without confusion. Taikun |
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools
|
Posted - 2007.07.13 14:21:00 - [ 21]
Originally by: Taikun
A weekly interested regime I think over complicates for the majority of eve patrons. I mean... look at most of the posters in here? I wouldn't trust them to understand how to pour a cup of coffee let alone figure out a 12 month weekly interest cycle payment plan.
I'd go out on a limb and say around half of the people in this forum are of above-average intelligence. On a more-serious note, if you have a battleship BPO, you probably aren't a complete financial newbie. And the kinds of people who would take advantage of an opportunity like this are the same kinds of people who can understand the benefits--and the terms--of a "mortgage", to use Nyphur's term. Originally by: Taikun
Besides, miss one interest payment of 30,00 isk because you went on holiday and you lose your 1 billion megathron BPO forever? Not fair I say.
Of course not. But it WILL be repossessed after some number of missed payments. If you want it back, you'll need to pay the past-due amount, and a penalty. And, like a pawn shop, there's no guarantee the BPO-bank won't have sold it off by the time you get around to fulfilling your financial obligations. MP |
Taikun
Gallente
Jovoso
Teldar Paper |
Posted - 2007.07.13 15:13:00 - [ 22]
Edited by: Taikun on 13/07/2007 15:18:01 Originally by: Motivated Prophet
I'd go out on a limb and say around half of the people in this forum are of above-average intelligence.
Thats a relative perception and I agree it applies to you. Originally by: Motivated Prophet
On a more-serious note, if you have a battleship BPO, you probably aren't a complete financial newbie. And the kinds of people who would take advantage of an opportunity like this are the same kinds of people who can understand the benefits--and the terms--of a "mortgage", to use Nyphur's term.
My 25+ years in banking would disagree with you. You would be surprised at the levels of financial literacy in the broader community. It is shocking. Originally by: Motivated Prophet
Of course not. But it WILL be repossessed after some number of missed payments. If you want it back, you'll need to pay the past-due amount, and a penalty.
Now your getting into the nitty gritty of a potential future loan process coding. That is wishful thinking on a roll of the dice at best givin past experiences with CCP of rolling out new features. Might be best to put our thoughts in a discriptive well articulated post/email to CCP. Who knows, they might file it next to mine I sent 2 years ago on the very same subject. Taikun |
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools
|
Posted - 2007.07.13 23:59:00 - [ 23]
Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
I'd go out on a limb and say around half of the people in this forum are of above-average intelligence.
Thats a relative perception and I agree it applies to you.
Thanks, I think. But it's not a perception; it's a mathematical law. Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
On a more-serious note, if you have a battleship BPO, you probably aren't a complete financial newbie. And the kinds of people who would take advantage of an opportunity like this are the same kinds of people who can understand the benefits--and the terms--of a "mortgage", to use Nyphur's term.
My 25+ years in banking would disagree with you. You would be surprised at the levels of financial literacy in the broader community. It is shocking.
As I said, the people who own a battleship BPO are probably in the higher tiers of financial competence. Just like, in the banking world, your average owner of a $5,000 savings account may not have that much financial competence, but your average owner of a $10,000,000 investment portfolio will, if for no other reason than the fact that he's hired people to teach him (or to make presumably-wise decisions on his behalf). Please don't counter me with anecdotes. Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
Of course not. But it WILL be repossessed after some number of missed payments. If you want it back, you'll need to pay the past-due amount, and a penalty.
Now your getting into the nitty gritty of a potential future loan process coding. That is wishful thinking on a roll of the dice at best givin past experiences with CCP of rolling out new features.
No, I'm not. This is all player-run, and trivial to run, at that. Originally by: Taikun
Might be best to put our thoughts in a discriptive well articulated post/email to CCP. Who knows, they might file it next to mine I sent 2 years ago on the very same subject.
Taikun
CCP's job is not to hold my hand. They give me the tools, I make use of them. If they give me more tools tomorrow, I'll make use of those, too. Now to get back to this damn API code. Someone hand me a socket wrench. MP |
Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
|
Posted - 2007.07.14 09:10:00 - [ 24]
Edited by: Terminus adacai on 14/07/2007 15:25:23
|
Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
|
Posted - 2007.07.14 09:12:00 - [ 25]
Edited by: Terminus adacai on 14/07/2007 15:25:04
|
Blazing Fire
Interstellar Operations Incorporated
|
Posted - 2007.07.17 14:04:00 - [ 26]
|
All Channels
Market Discussions
.