Posted - 2007.06.05 21:39:00 - [92]

 

Edited by: Tzrailasa on 05/06/2007 21:39:32
I've cut your post down to the core points where I think you're wrong....

Originally by: Grim Faust

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But it's blobbing that wins wars.

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This is the main point where I think you're mistaken.
Blobbing in itself doesn't win wars. What wins wars are that your pilots are more willing to return in a new ships after loosing one, than the enemy you're facing!

Originally by: Grim Faust

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Until the day that the servers can handle what the players can throw at them, wars are simply going to be what side can gather the most troops and swamp the enemy when the enemy isn't online or around.

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No, until and after that much-longed-for day (oh, I wish...), wars will continue be about which side can break the other sides will to fight!

Originally by: Grim Faust

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...what sort of battles are the ones constantly happening?

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The battles constantly happening are the daily fights between smaller groups/individuals. THOSE are what grinds down an enemys will to fight, not the relative few large fleet and POS-battles.
The big battles (though spectacular) account for a relative low percentage of the total losses in the current war. By far the most losses come from the steady grind.

You (and most other people for that matter) are under a mis-perception why BoB currently seems to be winning the war.

It's not because of our uber skill or skills (other have them too)
It's not because we have good FC's (others have them too)
It's not because we're rich (a few BoB are, the majority not)
It's not because we have top-fitted ships (easy to get these days)
It's not because of our capital fleet (coalition had a larger one)

All of the above helps (sometimes a lot), but would be worth absolutely NOTHING without the real reason, which is the one where we DIFFER from most of our current enemies:
BoB pilots come back in another ship after being blown up, where many of our enemies (after a while) doesn't!

Posted - 2007.06.05 21:50:00 - [94]

 

Edited by: Grim Faust on 05/06/2007 21:56:10

Originally by: Tzrailasa

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All of the above helps (sometimes a lot), but would be worth absolutely NOTHING without the real reason, which is the one where we DIFFER from most of our current enemies:
BoB pilots come back in another ship after being blown up, where many of our enemies (after a while) doesn't!

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You yourself seem to be under the misconception of why you're powerful. If the coalition brought fleets to your doorstep in the size they were capable of, you wouldn't stand a chance no matter what sort of spirit you had. I'd like to point it out as a prime example how long FLA held off MC and friends. A seemingly small alliance with no hope, yet we stood our ground longer than most other forces that were multiple times larger and more skilled than us. But in the end that did not matter and from the start we knew our resilience wasn't going to save us. If the enemy force is larger and has more pilots/ships, it's not about spirit or pride or who's fighting for what reason.

I like to think the server has "the battle of thermopylae syndrome".(Think 300) Except in Eve's case, large forces are pidgeon-holed in to that sort of situation without choice. Smaller forces benefit from it too and believe it or not, BoB was that smaller force when everyone was on the **** train. But because of the afforementioned servers syndrome, the coalition lost it's edge it had over the alliance forces.

You can't say that it doesn't matter either because one of the main things I kept hearing Alliance members using as a crutch excuse is that there were way more coalition forces than them. Well duh! But the coalition couldn't utilize it's entire force without the game sticking it's proverbial stick up the coalitions eye. So what happens is one armies strength is limited by the server while the other wipes the sweat away and realizes that the enemies true power is capped and doesn't really matter.

Take for example battles in real life. Tactics may play a roll, but for the most part it's who's got more soldiers or more gear. Those are the guys that are going to win. How many times did god come down from the heavens above and say, Hey sorry guys! The earth and probability can't handle all you fighting at once so I'm going to have to ask about 80% of you to go home and only send out a few groups at a time! It doesn't work like that and if it did the face of our society today would be quite different.(Refer to the world ganking germany in WW) Nation for nation the Germans would have mopped the floor with anyone with their superior forces. However in the end they were overwhelmed and ultimately destroyed.

If the servers capability is limited then so will the scalibility of conflict and that in my opinion is not the way Eve should be played.

Posted - 2007.06.05 21:58:00 - [96]

 

Edited by: Byzan Zwyth on 05/06/2007 21:58:11
I dont know, call me an eve noob but the coalition had a prime chance to win this thing. But seemed like they never realy had a plan. We had serious crap thrown at us but it never seemed to have a meaning other than to disrupt us which was not enough to justify the shear number of hostile ships in our space.

The other thing I see was the coalition not securing the services of MC. I seem to remember before this all started an MC leader hinted they would work for anyone if there was a solid plan of attack with clear goals and payment enough to make it a good deal. But the coalition thought it would be a better idea to smack them on the forum and call them bob pets and even attack them in game - I'm sure after that they were dying for someone to come and hire them against the coalition.

If I had any say in how to attack bob I would have done my best to get the MC on side. I would have drawn up clear and realistic sequence of goals for them to work on and secured them support and allies to work with. For payment they would firstly need space and "set up shop". Payment would have to be more than enought to seal the deal. Lots of ISK & toss in a titan or motherships to make them lick their lips a bit. Bob are a huge force anyway there is not doubt, but the difference between having to fight the MC as well as BoB and having the MC on your side to fight BoB is massive...

Anyway, better luck to the next lot. I think bob agree - more than anything they want a good fight it seems.

Posted - 2007.06.05 22:25:00 - [98]

 

Originally by: Grim Faust

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Originally by: Tzrailasa

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All of the above helps (sometimes a lot), but would be worth absolutely NOTHING without the real reason, which is the one where we DIFFER from most of our current enemies:
BoB pilots come back in another ship after being blown up, where many of our enemies (after a while) doesn't!

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If the coalition brought fleets to your doorstep in the size they were capable of, you wouldn't stand a chance no matter what sort of spirit you had.

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Why don't they then? ... Oh, yes. The servers doesn't really support that...

Then.....
What keeps the coalition from coming at us with numbers that match ours and which the server can handle?
What keeps the coalition from continually raiding our back yard the way we do theirs?
What keeps the coalition from actually fighting for their space?

They did the above for the first part of the war, but not anymore.... Why?
...because a lot of their people don't show up anymore..... QED

Originally by: Grim Faust

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I'd like to point it out as a prime example how long FLA held off MC and friends. A seemingly small alliance with no hope, yet we stood our ground longer than most other forces that were multiple times larger and more skilled than us. But in the end that did not matter and from the start we knew our resilience wasn't going to save us (*).

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For a similar situation, look at FIX. In this war, they held off for a long time against the ENTIRE north (5+ alliances)..... AND THEN THEIR ALLIES (us/others) SHOWED UP AND HELPED THEM!

Do you see where the difference is?

At the point where I've inserted a (*) in your text, add "and neither were our allies"... If you, MM, D2, RZR, etc. had kept fighting, you'd still be there...
...but a lot of coalition people didn't show up... QED

Originally by: Grim Faust

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If the enemy force is larger and has more pilots/ships, it's not about spirit or pride or who's fighting for what reason.

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You may want to ask RA whether this is true... They were down to 1 system, attacked by much larger forces, but they held on and didn't give up....
...you gave up...

Originally by: Grim Faust

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If the servers capability is limited then so will the scalibility of conflict and that in my opinion is not the way Eve should be played.

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If the servers capabilities are limited, you may wish for better days, or you may adapt to whatever the servers can deliver....

We all KNOW by experience what the servers can deliver and what they can't. That is basically part of the tactical environment for EVE and we can't change it.
There are two ways of handling it, one is to adapt, the other is to complain....
...guess which one wins you battles/wars?

Posted - 2007.06.05 22:34:00 - [100]

 

Edited by: Grim Faust on 05/06/2007 22:34:44

Originally by: Tzrailasa

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stuff

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Once again you turn my post in to why BoB is better than everyone else. Get over yourself already because I don't care and the majority of people don't care either.

My point as it has been since I first remarked is that the servers lack-there-of ability to handle large scale conflict scales and alters the very face of war and you even admitted that by saying people adapt to that and exploit it to it's potential.

It's because of this cap that people can take advantage of a server specification and win when they otherwise may not be able to on the larger scale of massive coalitions of alliances trying to zerg someone through sheer numbers. That is using means of technicality to win rather than size or force. Just because you can use great tactics based around technicalities, doesn't mean the technicalities in the first place should be trumped out. Server caps will always be a ****ty factor to deal with so long as they exist and no able minded person can deny that.

Once again, this isn't about why you think BoB is great. This can happen to anyone, it just so happens though BoB was recently in a situation so it's kinda hard to not relate the subject to BoB. But go ahead and talk about yourself some more if you want. Or perhaps try to engage in the same conversation I'm trying to have and tell me just why it is you think server caps are so ****ing great.

Posted - 2007.06.05 22:54:00 - [102]

 

Originally by: Tzrailasa

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We have the conditions we have. Server and EVE technology doesn't support huge battles well. Deal with it!

What-if's are useless...

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I suppose dealing with it will make Eve a better game? Maybe we should all just cuddle CCP and tell them that they don't need to upgrade the servers and that everything is fine.

It's apathetic remarks like that that make you sound like you care more about leaving things as is rather than making improvements. How that helps the community is beyond me.

Posted - 2007.06.05 22:59:00 - [104]

 

Originally by: Grim Faust

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Originally by: Tzrailasa

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We have the conditions we have. Server and EVE technology doesn't support huge battles well. Deal with it!

What-if's are useless...

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I suppose dealing with it will make Eve a better game? Maybe we should all just cuddle CCP and tell them that they don't need to upgrade the servers and that everything is fine.

It's apathetic remarks like that that make you sound like you care more about leaving things as is rather than making improvements. How that helps the community is beyond me.

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Flaming, flaming, flaming.....

You forgot to quote the parts where I wished for better servers....

Stop whining and start pew-pew'ing instead!!!

Posted - 2007.06.05 23:17:00 - [106]

 

I feared that this topic would degenerate into a slagging match between various factions. I did post this in GD so that those in small corps and NPC corps could at least agree/disagre with my comments. The gods (mods) decided to move it and havn't even had the decency to reply to my email asking to be put back into GD. I wonder if they Macro posts that mention Bob to CAOD

As for the responce I am a little disapointed with the poor quality. The standard "Yawn another Anit-Bob post, f*** off and leave the game", one accused me of being a Bob alt, I smiled at that one, others blaming each other for various defeats, some complaining that the game is rigged in favour of Bob and some very silly posts that went way over my head.

Reading various other posts and speaking with people I think I now know whats wrong. Bob pilots (and some pets) are simply to good for the majority of players in the game thanks to superiour FC's and pilots that do as they are told.

They do not fear death for what they lose is soon replaced be it a BS, Dread, HAC or Frig etc. So far as I can tell this is not true of any other alliance unless you happen to be one of the choosen few high up in the chain of command. I have lost many ships in the past protecting alliance space and very few of us got replacement ships.

Unless the other alliances beef up their organisation and reduce the consequences of death in service then people will be more cautious in battle, Bob on the other hand take risks.

Bob seem to be better organised at every level and this is why they are so good. Sad but true.

On with the training.

Posted - 2007.06.05 23:37:00 - [108]

 

Originally by: scum Killer

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They do not fear death for what they lose is soon replaced be it a BS, Dread, HAC or Frig etc.

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Only some BoB corp replace ships....

What's more important I think, is that BoB players play this game to shoot stuff!
We don't have the option of NOT coming out in a new ship because fighting IS the reason we play this game.

Posted - 2007.06.05 23:53:00 - [110]

 

Originally by: Tzrailasa

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Originally by: scum Killer

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They do not fear death for what they lose is soon replaced be it a BS, Dread, HAC or Frig etc.

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Only some BoB corp replace ships....

What's more important I think, is that BoB players play this game to shoot stuff!
We don't have the option of NOT coming out in a new ship because fighting IS the reason we play this game.

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From my limited experiance that is indeed the case. Too many times I seen people to "scared" to come out of stations and engage the enemy.

Too many times I seen people who sit in station for hours for a hostile fleet to leave the area only to emerge when safe in their faction fitted BS to go ratting. I also know damn well they had a BC, AF, Inty tucked up in the station as well. I am sure from time to time that person was me , but for sure I was never alone in the station.

Posted - 2007.06.06 00:01:00 - [112]

 

Originally by: Habraka

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Simultaneous strikes on several different fronts. Bob may be good but they cant be everywhere at once.

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Been there, done that. Have you been away for the last six months?

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Try going it right, when i say simultaneous i mean exactly at the same time, even if Bob manages to spread their stront timers on 3 different systems across 3 diffrent days they're gonna have one hell of a time moving their capital fleet back and forth across half the universe.

Posted - 2007.06.06 00:39:00 - [114]

 

u want BOB dead, then stop asking how do u kill em, stop being so d&^^^ess grow some ***** and learn to fight

nough said

Posted - 2007.06.06 00:54:00 - [116]

 

Originally by: Plim

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Alt = Psycarne. I think I used him more than Plim in Fountain.

And no I don't play much anymore. But I do spend some time pointing out people's bull on the forums.

Also my post was a response to someone trolling Celes if you read back. So your "lose a bit of respect statement" seems a bit off, take it up with the trolls, not me. If you respect balances on the fact that you don't want me to respond when people make moronic statements, then I don't want it.

The only time I get 'bitter' in EVE is when I don't get a fight. So yeah i'm bitter when I see my enemies running from a good fight. I only care about in game politics when it means I get to shoot people. Frankly I don't give a damn whether Xelas is still in Fountain or not.

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My poor Plimmy getting wound up ♥

Posted - 2007.06.06 01:05:00 - [118]

 

Originally by: insolace

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Fighting will now only occur when the titan pilots in your address book have little red squares next to their avatars, and will largely be incidental in terms of actual impact on the war you're supposedly a part of.

I think if CCP removed supercapitals from this game both sides of this conflict would be having a lot more fun. Instead we're stuck at a ******ed stalemate with no actual fun combat to be found.

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Sunday 27 May 2007 18:00 eve time, wasnt a goon fleet sitting in 77s with a RA mom which went through 3 consecutive battles that happened?

yes......

did i get my butt handed to me on a silver plater?

yes.....

did i have fun and get a new ship to get back in there for more?

ofc

did those of you in goons who were at that battle have fun?

my reason for writing this is that our titan pilot was logged in, goons were up for a fight so we went balls to the wall and jumped in to get a fight. if you dont have the testicular fortitude to do something like that you might as well quit eve or stay in empire. super caps are in this game to stay so you either adapt and do the best you can or you just give up. there are still pleanty of oportunities to have fun with pvp besides having a super cap at your side waiting to pounce

Posted - 2007.06.06 05:47:00 - [120]

 

Originally by: violator2k5

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my reason for writing this is that our titan pilot was logged in, goons were up for a fight so we went balls to the wall and jumped in to get a fight. if you dont have the testicular fortitude to do something like that you might as well quit eve or stay in empire. super caps are in this game to stay so you either adapt and do the best you can or you just give up. there are still pleanty of oportunities to have fun with pvp besides having a super cap at your side waiting to pounce

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I think you miss the point. All the titan doomsday does is encourage the other side to not fight, and if we do decide to show up and your titan pilot gets bored he will kill all your targets and you might as well have not shown up yourself. It's a pointless weapon with no strategic application other than "end the battle before the fleets can actually engage each other". Surely bob pilots have noticed that since the introduction of multiple titans the actual ammount of strategically relevant sub-capital fleet battles has dwindled. What fun is EVE if you've effectively nerfed all ship classes except carriers, dreads, motherships and titans?