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Tom Deal
Posted - 2007.02.13 22:08:00 - [1]
 

Is this the time of space travel traveling? Cloning? Brain augmentation?

Why autopilots still warping within 15 kms?

Is 0 km Autopilot technology arriving soon or what?

Something does not fit Question

TD

pshepherd
Caldari
Subach-Tech
Posted - 2007.02.13 22:11:00 - [2]
 

warp to 0 is a replacement for instas. It was never intended to be anything else.

Tom Deal
Posted - 2007.02.13 22:24:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: pshepherd
warp to 0 is a replacement for instas. It was never intended to be anything else.


That does not answer my real question?

Why does autopilots cant warp to 0 kms?

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2007.02.13 22:28:00 - [4]
 

Yes. What is the roleplaying reason for this?

I think I understand the gameplay balance reason, but not really. It makes low sec less safe I guess. But... But why?

Pirate: YAR so's I kin gank ye when yer stupid enough ta be APin' around in me 0.0 system. YAR!

Me: Fine I will sit and click a button.

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2007.02.13 22:33:00 - [5]
 

So u won't afk travel tho lowsec/0.0
GIVE US SOME CHANCE

Erfnam
Offworld Miners and Fabricators Guild
Rising Orbit Free Trade League
Posted - 2007.02.13 22:46:00 - [6]
 

As a trader, I would vote no to insta afk travel. Sure, it would help me out, but it gimps a few aspects of the game and makes everything seem even smaller. If you want to afk travel faster, wedge down your MWD shortcut key.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.02.14 03:08:00 - [7]
 

Haha, I knew this would come up after JTZ.
Players are never satisfied.

As I said previously, the devs should consider reducing it to 10km, but that's it.
If you want to travel fast, travel manually.

Oh, but please implement a 'waypoint reached' notification for manual travel. It's just annoying to miss waypoints.

Nim9i5
Posted - 2007.02.14 04:25:00 - [8]
 

how about you cannot warp closer than 10km to a gate, not like a bubble you can still warp out of it, you just cant warp closer than 10km to a gate. I don't see the logic either make autopilot 0 km warp in, or make it so you can't warp in closer than 10km on autopilot or regular warp to. you dont need to make instas at gate when you cant warp in close than 10 km anyways :

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2007.02.14 08:03:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Nim9i5
how about you cannot warp closer than 10km to a gate, not like a bubble you can still warp out of it, you just cant warp closer than 10km to a gate. I don't see the logic either make autopilot 0 km warp in, or make it so you can't warp in closer than 10km on autopilot or regular warp to. you dont need to make instas at gate when you cant warp in close than 10 km anyways :


No thanks. WTZ has made this game much better. A huge useless time sink has been removed, let's not have it back.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.02.14 08:54:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: pshepherd
warp to 0 is a replacement for instas. It was never intended to be anything else.
This is the correct reply. A quick lesson in EvE history is called for, but I'm too tired to give it.

Warp to zero is not a norm that other aspects of the game, such as autopilot, should adhere to. It is the formalization of a game-defining exploit.

It should never be used as an example of anything. It is an exception and a borderline cheat and its very existence does harm to the game, but it does less harm than the workaround it replaced, and saves a lot of server effort.

There should never again be a change to the game that makes it easier to travel in safety. The scales are tipped that direction already.

Sargeant HAmmer
Caldari
Caldari Star Industries Co
Posted - 2007.02.14 12:16:00 - [11]
 

i have seen this topic so many times

im gonna go with the overall idea that wtz is for gamers who want to play

wtz jumping on ap should never happen.

makes it too easy for haulers

ccp want you to play the game

not do 30 jumps while grabbing some lunch through all kind of sectors of space.

some people do trading and hauling for isk on here and it makes it too easy if ap has to be set

if you wana travel fast ap then get a gisti a type 1mn mw drive and a fast ship

Daniel Lentz
Posted - 2007.02.14 16:48:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
As I said previously, the devs should consider reducing it to 10km, but that's it.
If you want to travel fast, travel manually.
How about a skill to get it down to 10km? (1km per level reduction down from a 15km base)

I don't like the idea of anything less either.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2007.02.14 16:58:00 - [13]
 

Warp-to-0, instas, and you...

There once was a time when there was no warp-to-0. This was a horrible time where people were forced to warp within 15 kilometers of a gate and fly within 2.5km of the gate before jumping and to start the process anew. This was the dark ages of pirates, where pilots were actually vulnerable when travelling. Pilots were unjustly forced to use higher-brain functions by looking at the map and plotting a safe course around potential gate camps. Pilots who lacked such higher-brain functions were left to die miserably to the gate camps.

One day, such a pilot suddenly had a stroke of uncharacteristic genius! In his frequently travelled systems, he could create bookmarks approximately 12-15km from the gate such that when he warped from one gate to the bookmark, he would land directly on top of it! Thus instas, and the great bookmark revolution began. Everyone began creating instas for their favorite systems. It was soon discovered that as the number of gates increased in a system, the number of instas that you need to complete the "set", so to speak, grew exponentially. Soon, an entire market sprang up out of nowhere, based upon the sale of large areas of instas!

This is when the glorious instas showed their dark side. With so many millions upon millions of instas in existence they slowly gave birth to a demon of pure lag. Tales are told of pilots who accidentally opened their people and places window and were forced to wait an eternity as the instas finished loading.

Meanwhile, people continued to use instas, and they became a integral part of EVE. Entire alliances kept sets of bookmarks for the regions of space they occupied. Escrow was filled with advertisements selling thousands upon thousands of bookmarks. Pirates and carebears a like would not be caught anywhere near low sec or 0.0 without a full set of instas.

As the problems continued, TQ slowly grinded to a halt. It was then that CCP decided that something must be done! They asked players for ideas. It was then that 4 mighty factions on the Features and Ideas forum formed. The WTZ faction, the Nuke Instas faction, the Starmaps faction, and the corporate bookmarks faction. Each faction waged bitter forum war against each other, deciding that their solution to the insta problem was correct. In general, the pirates favored the Nuke Instas option, while carebears favored the WTZ option. Those in the middle favored Starmaps or corporate bookmarks. After a long bloody war that left no soul unscathed, CCP decided that instas had become too important to remove. On top of this, Starmaps and corporate bookmarks would require too much code, and/or would not yield enough decrease in lag (though I still of the fervant opinion that Starmaps would've been much cooler, and still to this day disagree with Maya on this point). It was then that Warp To 0km was championed by CCP. A great treaty was signed by all of the forum warriors that Warp To 0km on Autopilot was a pandoras box that if opened, would end all concepts of danger from low sec and 0.0. Thus CCP did not allow Autopilot to utilize WTZ. Thus as CCP introduced WTZ, The Great Bookmark Massacre began, as millions upon millions of instas were mercilessly slaughtered.

And this brings us to today...

Tolomea
Gallente
5th Front enterprises
New Eve Order
Posted - 2007.02.14 22:06:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Warp-to-0, instas, and you...

<snip>

And this brings us to today...


Nice Post

Nim9i5
Posted - 2007.02.15 00:25:00 - [15]
 

you miss the point, you can still get rid of instas and make it 15km out of jump range. Just make it so no bookmarks can be made in the 15km range. I see no reason to make autopilot not go to 0, if you can do it manually you shoud be able to do it on autopilot. However you could also make it so everyone has to go the 15km, since you cant warp in closer than 15km into a gate.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.02.15 02:11:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Warp-to-0, instas, and you...
Bravo, you hit all the important points, explained the situation well, and gave credit to the proposed alternatives. It was a bloody forum war, and you characterized it well.
Originally by: Nim9i5
[Poor reading comprehension]
Read Taedrin's post again, and if you still don't get it, spend a month rooting through the archives and reading the dozens of long, violent, hateful threads on the topic. This has been beaten to death. You missed the debate, and it's too late to change the outcome now. A lot of people don't like WTZ, a lot of people want autopilot to WTZ, a lot of people are still championing the very interesting notions of starmaps and corporate bookmarks, which had a lot of potential. No matter what you say, the matter's been laid to rest, and neither you nor the many people who have given it more thought than you have can do anything about it now. Let it go. Adapt.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2007.02.15 04:38:00 - [17]
 

okay, so...

If you're autopiloting, then you're AFK, and surely warping in at 15km won't bother you?

More to the point, if you're autopiloting while present at the computer, why the hell aren't you flying manually?

Nim9i5
Posted - 2007.02.15 05:54:00 - [18]
 

to be honest idc really Shocked

ManniXXX
Minmatar
GYCO Enterprises
Posted - 2007.02.15 06:01:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
okay, so...

If you're autopiloting, then you're AFK, and surely warping in at 15km won't bother you?

More to the point, if you're autopiloting while present at the computer, why the hell aren't you flying manually?


Because we're fat and lazy and our hands are busy shoveling burgers down our throats and guzzling 10oz jugs of coke of course!

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2007.02.15 07:55:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Warp-to-0, instas, and you...

And this brings us to today...



awesome Cool

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2007.02.15 09:46:00 - [21]
 

Guess the short reply is. Never.
Want speedy travels, you have to do it manually. Just like when we had insta bookmarks, you had to make the bookmark manually.

Hypatia Iola
Caldari
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2007.02.15 11:14:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: ManniXXX
Originally by: Stitcher
okay, so...

If you're autopiloting, then you're AFK, and surely warping in at 15km won't bother you?

More to the point, if you're autopiloting while present at the computer, why the hell aren't you flying manually?


Because we're fat and lazy and our hands are busy shoveling burgers down our throats and guzzling 10oz jugs of coke of course!


pwned

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2007.02.15 19:23:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Frug
Yes. What is the roleplaying reason for this?
I invented this one...so it's not part of EVE...but here goes...

Computers are fast at processing things, but they are not AWARE. Even in the time of EVE, computers only got faster, they never achieved sentience...put one on the other end of a "blind" terminal, and after a few questions, a person can tell they are tlaking to a computer, not a person.

Warping isn't a science...it requires interaction...experiments were made with the fastest computers, attempting to achieve a "warp to 0km" result. And the good news is, they were 89% successful. The bad news is that it took a lot of scraping to recover the ships of the other 11% from on (and sometime IN) the stargates.

Success rate of 100% was only achieved when the limit was dropped to 15km.

You don't PLOT a warp...you FEEL your way there...computers don't feel.

Wardo21
Posted - 2007.02.15 22:24:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Warp-to-0, instas, and you...
<snip> Thus as CCP introduced WTZ, The Great Bookmark Massacre began, as millions upon millions of instas were mercilessly slaughtered.

And this brings us to today...

Nice history lesson.
ISTR the day the massacre began that almost all of my bookmarks went poof. Something about a data update that any bookmark within 15 (or was it 20) KM of a station or gate was brutally sent to /dev/null... Why not leave the code as it was, and add that purge to the daily database maintenance routine? Recreating a bookmark every day would become a waste of time, so they wouldn't come back in the lag creating volumes of yore. Warp to 15km would be the standard, keeping the gankers happy, and restoring gates to their intended functions. (Similar to the reasoning for the new WCS penalties, "it was never intended as a get out of combat free module".)

Originally by: Grey Area
You don't PLOT a warp...you FEEL your way there...computers don't feel.

Good idea, but there is a slight problem. My ship and I are joined at the brain, I make the ship do things by thought, not by punching some keys then heading to the galley. This feeling would be present at all times, if my pod is aboard... Since I'm jumping somewhere, my pod must be aboard, and connected to the system.

Forget for a moment the matter of WTZ on autopilot, what about the dock command at the end of the run? How come that can't be an AP destination? (even if it has to be 15km warp to, then dock)

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.02.15 22:56:00 - [25]
 

Believe it or not, there are people who afk through low-sec. It's a big risk, and it's a little bit crazy, but it's done. Adding a dock command at the end would make it almost worth the risk to do it regularly. I don't like that idea.

Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
G00DFELLAS
Posted - 2007.02.16 00:30:00 - [26]
 

there is no RP reason why AP cant warp to 0km, at least none I could come up.

Maybe the ap is just unable to process the massive datastream of a moving and expanding universe as fast as a pod pilot's augmented brain can.

or because of the pink bunny!

Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
The ENTITY.
Posted - 2007.02.16 03:44:00 - [27]
 

Quick RP reason there is no WTZ on autopilot.

The human mind is more advanced then a ships computer systems let alone the navigation system. The act of adjusting a flight plan to leave war a faction of a second later then what was normal goes agenst typical guide lines. A computer does not mimic the human pilot form the simple fact that each distance if different the relation to gavitonic forces and counting the risk of breaching warp right ontop of another vessel as well make the error chance ratio of landing outside of a safe distance from another ship or the stargate itself to great, more then a 30% error rate, to be put it use efficently.
A pilot him/herself over rides the safty percation to save extra time off of the pilot's travel even tho it poses too much of a risk fro it to be a automatic funtion to be programed into the navigation system. A true computer to mimic the risk tanking changed of the pilot would be too great and inpeed on the computer power and power grid which would normaly be used for weapon systems and a array of ship modules.

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.02.16 09:23:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Auron Shadowbane
there is no RP reason why AP cant warp to 0km, at least none I could come up.
The RP reason is that it's fundamentally unsafe to come out of warp that close to a celestial object. The 15km buffer is for your safety, and the ship's computer will not allow you to warp to a closer range.

Reply: LOLZ but u can wtz rite now wit teh mnaul warp, durr!

Counter-reply: That was a decision made in response to the facts that have been stated repeatedly in this thread. WTZ was being accomplished in most situations where it mattered with the aid of insta bookmarks, WTZ was a core component of gameplay, and interdiction tactics and equipment were balanced based on the assumption that all targets would be warping to zero kilometers, and the bookmarks--exceeding a hundred million in number--and their duplication were lagging the servers intolerably.

It's just the same as it ever was. If you want to travel fast and safe, you've got to do it while sitting at your computer. Now you can skip the 5000 bookmarks in your people and places, but the core gameplay is unchanged. It's fine.

Tolomea
Gallente
5th Front enterprises
New Eve Order
Posted - 2007.02.16 11:38:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Tolomea on 16/02/2007 11:35:38
RP talk is fine and all and I have no problem with it. But you need to remember the golden rule:

Gameplay always always trumps Roleplay

We make RP excuses after the fact to justify things that needed to be done to improve Gameplay, never the other way around. Also making your life easier does not necessarily improve general Gameplay.

NetMage
Caldari
Arkonide Great Imperium Corporation
Posted - 2007.02.17 00:24:00 - [30]
 

I think stating that Gameplay trumps Roleplaying is a cop-out. You should only do that if you can't come up with something better. Otherwise, why don't we all play text only games?

Infocom games ruled on gameplay, but lost on customers paying.

I think the autopilot should be smarter in space, and able to travel faster, primarily because the way it is now penalizes new players who don't find out about manual warping until later. The tutorial recommends using the auto-pilot - Eve is already too slow moving for some, and is travel going to be the Eve equivalent of farming?

"We don't make you work for your skills, but we make you click a lot to get anywhere" doesn't sound like a winning tagline.


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