| Author |
Topic |
Humpalot |
Posted - 2007.01.18 16:58:00 - [ 1]
I am trying to decide if I want to train up Command Cruisers. As it happens I can finish training for one in about ten days with my current skills so not too bad. Just trying to get a sense if for solo flying (i.e. missioning and solo ratting) if a CC is worth the time and money or if I am better off just sticking to my HAC? There will probably be some group PvP in there but more often than not this will be a solo boat.
If it matters I fly Amarr ships. |
Plymer Ization
Infinitus Odium
|
Posted - 2007.01.18 17:02:00 - [ 2]
I don't fly T2 Amarr ships, but I do know that the Absolution is complete sex.
Overall, if you're just a few days away from Command Ships, go for it. They are better tanks than HACs, they are better ganks than HACs, and they are cheaper in a lot of cases. You're going to be slower than HACs, but as long as you're able to deal with your speed disadvantage, then you'll be set. |
Romulus Maximus
Reikoku
KenZoku |
Posted - 2007.01.18 17:10:00 - [ 3]
Can u get either cheap ? They both serve a very similar role tbh. Both are nice ships, both do good dmg. Asbo is superior though. And with its drone bay, i go for asbo everytime, unless i need range. Then i use a beam zealot.
Both are very nice ships though. Either will do u proud. But lets not forget, the asbo is a higher class ship, so it is ofc better.
|
DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp |
Posted - 2007.01.18 17:11:00 - [ 4]
hacs are obviously more agile than command ships which makes them popular for pirating.
however, command ships out perform most hacs in every way. the only hacs that still have benefits over commandships are the vaga (unique), ishtar (sweet drone boat) and i think that's about it. other than that cs's are cheaper, more firepower and tank better. don't know any way that a zealot is better than a absolution or deimos better than an astarte or any other comparisons.
however cs's are more skill demanding which is why hacs are still more expensive.
DE
|
Aleksander Magnus |
Posted - 2007.01.18 17:32:00 - [ 5]
Edited by: Aleksander Magnus on 18/01/2007 17:30:06
The difference between command ships and hac's is about the same as the difference between t1 bc's and t1 cruisers. Bc's have superior firepower and tanking ability of cruisers but are slower, less agile, and have a much larger sig radius (net effect is you take hits much harder, almost as much as a bs).
For pvp hac's remain more popular because command ships can only really be used in slower moving gangs and fleets. However for ratting and whatnot a command ship is probably a better bet just as a bc is a better bet than a cruiser.
Edit: stupid forums posted with my alt.
|
Deathbarrage |
Posted - 2007.01.18 17:39:00 - [ 6]
well HAC's are great but CC's are just plain better the thing is just that it takes more skill training after that there's no real reason not to use the CS' apart from certain CS with specific roles (vaga, eagle) and they're maybe better for quick roaming gangs (HAC's) I like CS i fly both HAC's and CS but usually I'll stick to the CS
Asbolution = sex |
Majin82
Caldari
The 5th Freedom
Gentlemen's Club |
Posted - 2007.01.18 17:42:00 - [ 7]
HAC is a steping stone to get a CS.
Why not buy the HAC and by the time you finish BC 5 you should have been able to make back all the money you spent on the HAC. Then get a CS later on if you want. |
Shadarle |
Posted - 2007.01.18 20:30:00 - [ 8]
With tier 2 BC's and Command Ships in the game there is really less and less of a reason to use a HAC anymore. The Nighthawk is just ungodly good. If you like the Drake you will LOVE the nighthawk, it does everything the drake does but it does it all better. I have fallen in love with my nighthawk... plus it's got an awesome paint job. |
QwaarJet
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2007.01.18 20:34:00 - [ 9]
I've found HACs are pretty useless now, and also without fail Command Ships are cheaper than HAC's, which should make the decision concrete.
I've only ever owned 2 HAC's, a Deimos and Ishtar, and I both sold them. However at present I own a Nighthawk, Vulture, Astarte, Damnation and Absolution, so I have 5 Command Ships, and they are all great. |
korrey
Amarr |
Posted - 2007.01.18 21:56:00 - [ 10]
I really like HAC's more than CS. Yeah CS have more damage, yeah they look amazing, I just like the thought of being ridiculously mobile.
With a HAC your in the 'Kill quickly, leave before anyone sees it'. With CS its 'Kill quickly and take on any friends he invited as well'.
The CS thinking isnt wrong of course, I just prefer 1 on 1 vs the standard EvE 10 on 1. |
Mar vel
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire |
Posted - 2007.01.18 22:06:00 - [ 11]
Agreed. Other than the Vagabond, Hac's are utility ships now if you can fly a CBC. I like tooling around in my Eagle, which is still an effective pvp ship in small teams. Most of the other HACs are overshadowed by their CBC older brothers - more of everything at half the price. The only notable exception is the Nighthawk, which is continually overpriced b/c it's a missle boat favored by mission runners. The nighthawk, however, is not indestructuble, and has some limitations of its own to contend with. I trained Cal CBC's first, liked what I saw, but realized that Cal ships (for the most part) are horrible at close range engagements or agile/mobile gang operations requiring close-quarter combat. Trained the Gal line, and have not been disappointed. An EOS overshadows an Ishtar - with 7x turrets and better armor/shield hitpoints and resistances and an equivalent drone bay. Overall, HAC vs. CBC is no comparison. My question is that now that HACs are taking a back seat to CBC's, and everyone and their cousin are training CBC's, what's CCP going to put into play for tier 3 CBC's. Those of us who have invested serious time/money in the CBC specialization will be pretty disappointed when CBC's become as common as Thoraxes - as again, there will fail to be any clear winners other than "my gang is bigger than your gang". Argggg.  Originally by: QwaarJet
I've found HACs are pretty useless now, and also without fail Command Ships are cheaper than HAC's, which should make the decision concrete.
I've only ever owned 2 HAC's, a Deimos and Ishtar, and I both sold them. However at present I own a Nighthawk, Vulture, Astarte, Damnation and Absolution, so I have 5 Command Ships, and they are all great.
 |
The Judge
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.01.19 00:16:00 - [ 12]
As others have said, hacs are just stepping stones to command ships basically. There is nothing a hac can do that a command ship can't do better with the exception of the vagabond. Plus even the new tier 2 bc's are better than hacs in my opinion. For example i'm amarr spec'd as well and wouldn't even hesitate taking on a zealot in a harbinger.
Since your training amarr ships i'd recommend you skip hacs completely and just go along the bc route
Absolution > Harbinger > Zealot
|
Riho
Gallente
Drop of Blood
|
Posted - 2007.01.19 00:53:00 - [ 13]
im currently flying alot of hacs :) but training for t2 bcs...
t2 bc cost about the same as hac or cheaper and are better than hacs (whit a few expetions :) )
gallente for example.
deimos is good but an astarte pwns that and costs same.
zealot is very nice... but absolution is loads better.
cerb is uber... nh is better.
vaga is the king... sleipnir can be better of fitted right :)
only down side is the agility i guess. they are still BCs.
for missions... think u can do lvl4s in them |
CherniyVolk
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.01.19 01:14:00 - [ 14]
Originally by: Mar vel
Most of the other HACs are overshadowed by their CBC older brothers - more of everything at half the price.
I hope this is true. I already have BC 5, Leadership 5... all I need is Welfare Spec 4 and I can start training Command Ships. I've been flying the Thorax/Deimos ship for a very long time and come Kali... With two powergrid rigs on a Deimos, it can have a non-RCU/PDU fit and sport 5 Heavy Neutron IIs. With two T2 Powergrid rigs, same thing and possibly a Medium NOS. Astarte... 7 Heavy Neutron IIs. But, most command ships in a gang environment have at the least 1 Warfare Link module fitted... Minus one high slot. I'd say the average Astarte pilot in a well formed gang might have two Warfare Link modules fitted knocking his firepower down to only 5 Heavy Neutron Blaster IIs (the same number of Neutrons as on the Deimos). Command Ships is a x8 training skill, Heavy Assault Ships is lvl 5... odds are, the average Deimos pilot is lvl 4 (20% more damage bonus) and it doesn't take that long to lvl 5 HAS. Infact, I'd say there might be a high percentage of HAC pilots that are flying around with HAC 5. Far fewer CS pilots are running around with CS 5; I might go so far to say, becuase of the x8 training mulitplier, the average CS pilot is only at level 3 CS (15% damage bonus). Not only is it practical that the Deimos pilot has higher skill related damage bonuses than the Astarte pilot, but the Deimos pilot has no incentive to sacrifice firepower for alternate hi-slot modules. This boils down to two scenerios. In gang, the Deimos can deliver the same damage as a typical gang fitted Astarte, but with much higher agility, speed and sig radius of a cruiser. If the Astarte is out damaging the Heavy Neutron Deimos, then the Astarte is fitted for a solo-PvP setup inwhich case, you call in an Eos to take care of him. Because the number one threat to the Deimos follows the Astarte, NOS. What does all this mean? I'm personally wondering if BC 5 was even worth the effort. I'm wondering how much would I be flying the Astarte over the Deimos. I really don't think that the average Astarte, properly fitted with Warfare Link modules, puts out more or even the same damage as if he was in a Deimos. So, does the Astarte really "overshadow" the Deimos? Perhaps in tank, perhaps in cost... but are they really reasons? I know people who spend upwards of 20 mil per Interceptor... no tank, high cost... while T1 frigate could do the same thing... no tank, low cost. |
neutero |
Posted - 2007.01.19 01:15:00 - [ 15]
Mindlinked fleet command ships can make a massive difference. |
Liet Traep
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
IT Alliance |
Posted - 2007.01.19 01:53:00 - [ 16]
Since I like cheap command ship prices I'd say go for HACs!!!HACs all the way baby!!!! If you're going to train for CC's anyway go train caldari ones and let the prices stay nice and low on my absolutions. :) |
Deathbarrage |
Posted - 2007.01.19 07:58:00 - [ 17]
Originally by: CherniyVolk
Originally by: Mar vel
Most of the other HACs are overshadowed by their CBC older brothers - more of everything at half the price.
I hope this is true. I already have BC 5, Leadership 5... all I need is Welfare Spec 4 and I can start training Command Ships.
I've been flying the Thorax/Deimos ship for a very long time and come Kali...
With two powergrid rigs on a Deimos, it can have a non-RCU/PDU fit and sport 5 Heavy Neutron IIs. With two T2 Powergrid rigs, same thing and possibly a Medium NOS.
Astarte... 7 Heavy Neutron IIs. But, most command ships in a gang environment have at the least 1 Warfare Link module fitted... Minus one high slot. I'd say the average Astarte pilot in a well formed gang might have two Warfare Link modules fitted knocking his firepower down to only 5 Heavy Neutron Blaster IIs (the same number of Neutrons as on the Deimos). Command Ships is a x8 training skill, Heavy Assault Ships is lvl 5... odds are, the average Deimos pilot is lvl 4 (20% more damage bonus) and it doesn't take that long to lvl 5 HAS. Infact, I'd say there might be a high percentage of HAC pilots that are flying around with HAC 5. Far fewer CS pilots are running around with CS 5; I might go so far to say, becuase of the x8 training mulitplier, the average CS pilot is only at level 3 CS (15% damage bonus).
Not only is it practical that the Deimos pilot has higher skill related damage bonuses than the Astarte pilot, but the Deimos pilot has no incentive to sacrifice firepower for alternate hi-slot modules.
This boils down to two scenerios.
In gang, the Deimos can deliver the same damage as a typical gang fitted Astarte, but with much higher agility, speed and sig radius of a cruiser.
If the Astarte is out damaging the Heavy Neutron Deimos, then the Astarte is fitted for a solo-PvP setup inwhich case, you call in an Eos to take care of him. Because the number one threat to the Deimos follows the Astarte, NOS.
What does all this mean? I'm personally wondering if BC 5 was even worth the effort. I'm wondering how much would I be flying the Astarte over the Deimos. I really don't think that the average Astarte, properly fitted with Warfare Link modules, puts out more or even the same damage as if he was in a Deimos. So, does the Astarte really "overshadow" the Deimos? Perhaps in tank, perhaps in cost... but are they really reasons? I know people who spend upwards of 20 mil per Interceptor... no tank, high cost... while T1 frigate could do the same thing... no tank, low cost.
wtf is welfare spec lvl 4? I don't have it and i fly CS's =P if you're referring to warfare specs, don't need that either |
CherniyVolk
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.01.19 08:55:00 - [ 18]
Originally by: Deathbarrage
wtf is welfare spec lvl 4? I don't have it and i fly CS's =P if you're referring to warfare specs, don't need that either
It's a pun, sorta. Warfare Link Specialist lvl 4 is required for the Astarte. I just call it "Welfare Spec" becuase it's, well, a gang related skill :) |
Deathbarrage |
Posted - 2007.01.19 09:31:00 - [ 19]
|
Anominity
Amarr
Viziam
|
Posted - 2007.01.19 10:18:00 - [ 20]
|
Sienis |
Posted - 2007.01.19 10:41:00 - [ 21]
uhm... im not so sure about the topic... most of u compare HACs to Command ships, but the topic title asks for a comparison of HACs and Command Cruisers ... |
Asestorian
Domination. |
Posted - 2007.01.19 10:50:00 - [ 22]
There are no Command Cruisers as such, only the Command Ship and I imagine the OP just made a mistake with the naming. |
000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
|
Posted - 2007.01.19 12:17:00 - [ 23]
I got a NH and a Cerb and i can tell u that i prefer the NH ten times over, once u are used to flying it u will never want to return to any other combatship... Raven??? Pah!!! |
Malthros Zenobia |
Posted - 2007.01.19 12:19:00 - [ 24]
CBC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HAC
You can have faction-fitted BS grade tanks on those things using T2, and for the mopst part, their DPS are still uber (especially the Gallente ones, with their omfghuge dronebays and 7 blaster slots). |
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