Posted - 2006.12.07 20:21:00 - [32]

 

Originally by: ArtemisEntreri

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There is PvV as you so lightheartedly call it, in other games as well.
In the exact same circumstances as EvE, in WoW you can attack another player while he is mining, on a PvP server though, but it's still possible and there are plenty of people that get ganked in wow.

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Oh yeah, I forgot. It isn't like there is any REAL risk though. If someone ganks and camps you, you can just stand on your corpse until they get bored and leave. You lose nothing.

Posted - 2006.12.07 20:55:00 - [34]

 

I wasn't going to post in this thread until a day had passed. I saw some of the early replies, but was going to wait and see where the thread went. Perhaps I was too vague in my OP, so let me set a few things straight.

1. I APPROVE OF PVP IN ALL FORMS! I just wish I could participate as effectively as others with high speed connections. To me, PvP is the only 'real way' you can be challenged in an online game. There is no such thing (as of the time of this writing) as genuine AI. What games call AI is nothing of the sort. The game doesn't actually learn, it has preprogrammed counter measures. It doesn't guess, it doesn't have instinct, it doesn't have a gut feeling, and (most importantly), the game isn't out to save it's own arse.

2. I never once said that PvV is bad. I simply stated that it is different from PvP and that Eve has made a home for it. How is it different? I suppose the most basic boundary is motive. I'll go into that in greater detail in this response.

3. I think that everyone playing Eve should expect to be in the crosshairs at least once if they are going to play. Doesn't matter if you haul freight, mine, explore, or hang around newbie stations dropping 'Join Us, no really!' cans all over the place. If it undocks, it target locks. All's fair!

4. If I used the term 'carebear' or 'griefer', it wasn't to state that I think either side is that way, but that is the way that both sides refer to each other. I was using established names. If you read all of my post, I also called PvP'ers 'fighters', and PvE'ers 'pacifists', but that got lost somewhere I guess.

I 'tried' to make the OP both reasonable and unbiased. Whatever. I said ... he said ... she said ... fa la la. Regardless, I do think there is a difference between PvP and what I termed 'PvV'. Maybe I should've made a clearer picture of what I was saying. I'll try to explain it more.

NOTE: I'm not saying either PvP or PvV is bad. Just stating that PvV is more common and even tolerated in Eve.

Most base reference? A PvV player is a bully. He's not looking for a fair fight. He's usually not serving a cause. He wants to enjoy the game by hurting others. That is his reason for playing. PvV is not about winning. In most instances where PvV occurs, the person inflicting it usually has the odds stacked very high in their favor to the point that losing isn't really in the equation. Examples?

A. A player in a fully armed Cruiser sitting outside a newbie station target locking rookie ships with the hope that they will slip up and initiate combat. There's no real threat here. This person is just squashing ants with a rock.

B. Opening fire and destroying a shuttle. Not because you are defending a gate or a controlled area of space. Just to kill the poor sap in the shuttle. This isn't a challenge. There's no threat. The person in the shuttle isn't a scout because the person killing him isn't defending anything. Do players use shuttle to scout and do players defending a point have a right to kill them? Absolutely. But that isn't what is happening in this instance. The PvV'er is killing the player 'just to do it'.

I can give more examples, but I think I made my point. A PvV player doesn't seem to have a purpose for their acts other than a form of self gratification that most other players don't understand.

NOTE: If you are a PvP player and think that I'm trying to lump you together with a PvV player, then you are missing the point. Chances are, if you are offended by what I'm writing, then you are a PvP'er, and not a PvV'er.

Truth be told, a genuine PvV player would probably enjoy the fact that others (PvP/PvE) think they are scum. But are they?

Eve allows PvV. Good or bad. Necessary or not. It's here and it probably isn't going away. In RL, a person is never truly safe wherever they go. Even the guy next door could blow a head gasket, grab a chain saw, and...

Maybe having PvV helps make Eve more real. Maybe not. You decide.

Posted - 2006.12.07 21:00:00 - [36]

 

This is one of the many things that makes EVE great.

If you want a simple game don't play eve. Eve emulates real life in many ways. You can't predict the market, you can't be sure nobody will try to attack you while minding your own business, and nobody will help you when you lose all your isk except perhaps your friends.

I wouldn't have it any other way.

Posted - 2006.12.07 22:41:00 - [38]

 

I will be honest and say that I did not read all of your post. Putting tags and labels on things does not interest me and does not give me any measure of comfort. Either way its combat. Everyone decides on their own to fight back or to die crying.

PvP - Pirate vs Prey

Posted - 2006.12.07 23:58:00 - [40]

 

Whine On[ ] Whine Off[x]

Posted - 2006.12.08 01:55:00 - [42]

 

Originally by: Zhaine

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Anybody care to do like an editted version of the OP/thread? From my uber-skimmed read it looked like a typical moron-whine-Igotganked post, followed by the usual flames and stuff, but I just can't be sure. In fact I'm not sure I care that much anymore. . . Was there anything worth reading?

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he tried to coin the acronym PvV for player versus victim trying to state that pvp is only consensual why he made this post I'll never know

Posted - 2006.12.08 13:07:00 - [44]

 

Thank you, Galan Amarias, for your response.

I agree with most of what you wrote. I never said that any specific player 'has' to be only PvP, PvE, or PvV, though many tend to stick to one area. In fact, during my play in Eve I've been in different camps at different times depending on circumstances.

I mostly PvE; but this is due largely in part to my connection issues. However, I have PvP'ed when friends or corp mates called upon me. While I haven't initiated PvV, I have been on the receiving end, but that is par for the course.

Any player can be all things in Eve. While I tried to describe play styles into different categories, I don't believe that people can be placed into tidy boxes that way. Even the most non-violent pacifist can be sent into a blood-frenzied rage if prodded the right way. Show me the most vicious and cruel PvV'er, and I'll show you someone that has hauled freight or taken the occasional PvE mission from time to time.

I wasn't trying to say we have to be one or the other because we can't be. My point was that Eve has made a home for a type of player that most other games try to ignore or shun. As a result, there is a portion of the populous that is unpredictable and (to an extent) unstable.

In SWG, I played an Imperial Combat Medic. The majority of the player base were Rebels (with their starry-eyed opinion of being righteous and saving the galaxy), but very few wanting to pick up a blaster. I spent months watching posts on the forums screaming out to weaken my faction, nerf my profession, and (worst of all) turn my beloved AT-ST into nothing more than a Big Bird version of R2D2. In the end, the rebels got their way.

Why mention all of that? Because I've seen what 'control' can do to ruin a game. I'm not suggesting that Eve change. I like the freeform environment. Sadly, I see posts in the Eve forums that 'try' to nerf ships or gear. My OP was never about change, it was about realization.

I've played a lot of online games (AC1 was my first). In all of those games, there has always been a few players that were ********s. They were a headache to both the players and the devs. They pushed the boundaries and received constant warnings to 'behave', but they continued pushing.

Welcome to Eve. The wild west of gaming. Law and order is largely controlled by the players. Yes, there is Concord, but the long arm of the law isn't that long and (as is the case in RL) justice can be blind.

With that freedom, also comes the freedom for the worst elements. If anyone reading this hasn't experienced what I've phrased as a PvV'er, then you don't travel in my circles. I've seen quite a few.

My OP wasn't an attempt at change. It wasn't an attempt at pigeon-holing people. It was just for discussion. Everyone says theses forums are 98% whines and complaints. I tried to make a post that simply discusses a topic. Look where that got me.

Posted - 2006.12.08 14:24:00 - [46]

 

Originally by: Serial Driller

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My OP was never about change, it was about realization.

My OP wasn't an attempt at change. It wasn't an attempt at pigeon-holing people. It was just for discussion. Everyone says theses forums are 98% whines and complaints. I tried to make a post that simply discusses a topic. Look where that got me.

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I get what you were trying to discuss. I will state the obvious that some people see the Forums as an extension of the Eve Conflict. Some of the PvV is occuring in this forum. Others would say if you post - you are consenting to PvP. I see you were just discussing and performing Forum PvE. (you could be a PvVer on the Forum and trying to start something though - hard to tell what is in a person's soul)

I made my movie ( Lukkat the Pirate ) for the same reason you tried to discuss this I think. I tried to put it more visually through Weird Al's song because it was perfect in laying out the issue. (perfect enough) I do not think that Lukkat is a PvV person really as he takes lots of risks. As another example, one might even argue that Hagular is really a PvP site since it pops up a message saying "beware" before you enter. However, everyone knows that there is a boundary and lame does exist. Killing new pod pilots in the tutorial is lame. Probably attacking someone IN the tutorial should be banned somehow.

Now the problem is that in so stating something, you are in effect attacking the PvVers out there. In trying to address what I see as their personal issues, you are indeed attacking in a roundabout way. I am not a therapist, so I don't know the right about this. My instinct says waste of time as the main audience here is probably the PvP crowd who roleplay pirates and not the PvVers who don't really care about others so why read what they say anyhow.

Thanks for taking the time to try and lay out a discussion. Maybe a simpler description would be lame and not lame. I think we might have an easier time defining lame which might be more of a resultant than the intent going into the battle. One example might be someone delivering a Raven and having just enough skill to fly it and nothing in it module wise. Someone might attack it without scanning the modules and think - oh boy - I am gonna have me a fair fight when really - it is cake. That same person might be annoyed there was no loot later so at least in this example - the person only gets rewarded with loot based upon the risk...

All declared wars and Alliance/Corp warfare is clearly PvP and OKAY.

Lame things: killing people in the tutorial, joining a gang to really attack without warning a gangmember, wanting a fair fight and then spying on their teamspeak, aggroing a mission spawn to attack others upon your exit in mass

However, there will always be the person who kills random people without scanning or even a hint of the cargo/capabilities of the victim. If all they want is a killmail of anyone - then this might be a victim... Maybe you ought to start a thread in a more humorous mode - as laughter takes off the edge...

If you find yourself shooting noobs in the middle of the night, you might be a Looser(PvVer not be confused with a loser or one who has lost).

If you fit a battleship to dual a buddy in a frigate and you promised that friend you would fly a frigate too, you might be a Looser.

If you listen in on Teamspeak to your opponent to get that edge that you just can't seem to find any other way, you might be a Looser.

If your name contains leetspeak, and you give everyone a hard time about pronouncing it, IN ORDER TO PICK A FIGHT on a noob, you might be a Looser.

If you fight only with day old characters so you won't be ashamed of your reputation and use them to attack someone you fear in your main, you might be a Looser.

The "Iffing" and "Might" take the edge off in case there is an exception.

Posted - 2006.12.08 15:23:00 - [48]

 

Originally by: Serial Driller

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In SWG, I played an Imperial Combat Medic. The majority of the player base were Rebels (with their starry-eyed opinion of being righteous and saving the galaxy), but very few wanting to pick up a blaster. I spent months watching posts on the forums screaming out to weaken my faction, nerf my profession, and (worst of all) turn my beloved AT-ST into nothing more than a Big Bird version of R2D2. In the end, the rebels got their way.

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Who wouldn't want to nerf a combat medic you guys had that damn mind poison (and I would always pick up my t21 to go fight you filthy imps (unless there was a bunch of jedi since saber block rendered me useless))

Posted - 2006.12.08 15:38:00 - [50]

 

Plutoinum, from what you wrote, I think you have 'what I consider' to be a near perfect PvP way of thinking. While I agree with what you said, that doesn't mean that you or I have it right. PvP is personal. You and I see eye to eye and if you turned my shiny ship into shrapnel, then kudos to you. Does that mean I accept defeat with a smile? Hell no. I get ripped. I fume. I cool down. I move on. If PvP didn't evoke strong emotions, it wouldn't be PvP.

When being the victim of a PvV'er, the emotions can run even stronger. The PvV'er can make the player feel things they won't get in other games. If 'All is fair' in Eve, then nothing can be 'unfair'. If that is true, then being on the receiving end of a PvV'er should be okay, but it isn't. They can still get under your skin and that is their most powerful weapon. That is their strength and that is the rush they get. Who am I to deny someone that? Are they lame? By my standards, yes. However, my individual enjoyment of the game is not what is best for the game. Why would I want to play along with 150,000 versions of me?

Katrina Kirellii, regrettably, I can't view your movie (56k blues). You touched on the idea that my post may be offensive to PvV'ers. Forum warfare. Well, the closest comparison I can make is a forum troll, and who hasn't dealt with them?

Forums are not safe territory from trolls, but even the Eve forums are policed more than the game is. A troll has less chance of terrorizing these forums than a PvV'er has of practicing his craft in-game, but your point is well taken. You're right, my OP may be perceived as 'baiting trolls'. Truth be told, the best trolls don't take the bait. A genuine dyed-in-the-wool troll is smarter than that.

If I click 'undock', I'm on the clock and time is ticking. If I take a storyline mission that has me delivering a unique or irreplaceable item through low/0.0 space, then my adrenaline is pumping and my eyes are flitting across the screen like crazy. Now THAT is playing. Unlike other games where a PvV'er is frowned upon, I've no doubts that I'm open game in Eve. The fact that PvV'ers exist in Eve has caused me to 'marginally' abandon the concept of ethics and fair play; provisionally. For example:

A. I won't be ransomed. If my ship is close to pop and I'm being asked for ISK, I tell them to go screw themselves and kill me. Why? Because even after paying the ransom, I can still get destroyed. Why give them double gratification?

B. If a storyline mission expects me to travel through a corps area of space and I decide to take the mission, then I won't ask for permission to enter their space and then 'expect' a free ticket. I may ask, but I will still be prepared to be attacked even if cleared. If I choose not to ask, then I'm aware that I'm trespassing and that I am incurring their wrath.

C. I don't duel. To me, dueling is like boxing and I don't think boxing is fighting; not real fighting. Accepting a duel is putting your trust in the other person that they are looking for a clean and fair fight. What can you really learn from that? In real combat, your opponent isn't going to hold back. If you want to fight me, then lock on and start shooting without all the pretense. Then we're dueling.

The point of my examples? In other games, I didn't feel that way. Knowing there were 'ethics' and 'codes of conduct' hidden in the fabric of the game, I was complacent. I didn't worry about the consequences of my actions because 'decency' and 'civility' were expected. In Eve, I need to have eyes in the back of my head and my head thinking clearly. There is no confusion. I can be killed any time, by any one, for no reason whatsoever.

It isn't about dying, it's about survival and the two are not the same.

Posted - 2006.12.08 15:56:00 - [52]

 

To the OP:

If you are saying PvV is the griefers then mostly I agree with you.

To all others:

I cannot see how it can be anything but PvP in Low Sec since you are warned what can happen and you have to 'Consent' to enter low sec. (Pop up box)

Consenting to enter the systems and then shouting PvV doesnt work in my book.

If i have it wrong please explain but by clicking 'Yes' you are agreeing with Low Sec and all that goes on there.

High Sec activities are a different matter and above point is solely concerning Low Sec.

Posted - 2006.12.08 19:01:00 - [54]

 

Edited by: Drasked on 08/12/2006 19:03:14
There are no victims in eve.. nobody is holding a gun to your head when you first undock.

Only when you are forced to play eve by a third party your a victim.. and even then i would have a hard time accepting you as a victim.

Posted - 2006.12.08 20:05:00 - [56]

 

In PvE in quite a lot of games the enemies comes when they game decides and you can be suprised by them. I dont see why PvP cant be the same and I dont see why PvP cant have that same qaulity and thus i dont see the need to have a system where you have to accept a challenge to fight.

PvV assumes the second party always is the victim. This makes me think more about the type of player that brags about his number of kills but who won most or all of them by hanging at a 0.4 gate popping newbies. Not much of a challenge there. A sure kill a sure victim.

As for Eve being obviously PvP based. I disagree. Its community based in my view. Ofcourse you can play alone but you miss out on a lot of things if you do. And even if you fly solo you need others. If nobody build the ships and mods you would not have any. If nobody killed other players there would not be a real economy as we see now.

To me the two things that make Eve special are:
1. Everything goes as long as its done with normal game mechanics. Wich is where PvP lovers get their freedom from but its also the freedom for those who play the ingame scam type of chars.
2. Real player driven economy. And ofcourse this is where the carebears come in.

1 and 2 need eachother.

Posted - 2006.12.08 22:45:00 - [58]

 

Victims are generally carebears.

Victims aren't people.

Therefor, carebears aren't people.

I <3 your logic

Posted - 2006.12.08 23:49:00 - [60]

 

Originally by: Krulla

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This game would not be half as good as it is without the non-consentual PvP.

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I can recall the days of endless mining...long hours of mission humping...warping from belt to belt killing rats, looting cans...drooling with anticipation as my skill points increased.

I knew my boundries...I was a carebear. I avoided low-sec at all costs to secure my assets. I had a nice wallet, and a good collection of mods that I thought were top notch at the time.

Finally, after what seemed like decades, I got my first tech II ship. A crow. Even highlighted the moment with a set of "uber" +2 implants

I slapped all my cheesy "pimp" mods on it and looked forward to completely ruining belt rats that had beaten me in the past....so I jump into a .4 for the 2nd time.

FLASH!!!!

Overview is lit up like a damn war zone....red pulsing like a mad traffic signal intent on carnage.

Suddenly, a tempest with 1400mm II's unloads what could have only been 2 rounds and I am in my pod.

All that work!!!!....all those hours of play for this damned ship!!! NOOOOOOOO!!!!....I think I am going to cry...

Before I could get the thought out, I was waking up in my new clone.

My only memory:

Damn. I want to play that kind of Eve again.

5 minutes later, my heart slowed...and I was bored again.

Would I have experienced that in PvE? No.

Would I have experienced that if said tempest pilot had asked to fight me? No. (Which would have been my answer)

I was ganked. Unfairly and brutally. It changed how I played the game. I learned the magic of the scanner, watching local, gathering intel, mapping courses, reading the map, and most importantly, fitting my ship.

To this day I still carebear about most of the time...but my eyes are always on the tools that are made available to me, to stay alive and well.