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Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.11.26 01:41:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Hoshi on 17/04/2008 08:33:59
This post will try to serve as a guide to the scan probe system EVE currently uses and I will do my best to keep it updated with any changes and other relevant information.

Scan probing in Revelations

This guide will focus on ship probing, look here for a guide to exploration by Joerd Toastius. This guide assumes you posses at least basic control over how the Directional Scanner work.

If you have any further questions about ship probing feel free to contact me ingame BUT please do not ask me about exploration, I don't do exploration and won't be able to answer your questions.

To do scan probing we need a few things, namely a probe launcher, probes, a ship to mount it on and the skills to use them all.

Skills

  • Astrometrics - Adds one scan group per level. Is the primary skill that determines what probes you can use.
    For combat ship probing level 3 will do fine unless the target is in a deep safe for which level 5 is needed.

  • Astrometric Pinpointing Ė Reduces maximum scan deviation by 10% per level.
    Means that you can use a weaker probe and still get a result that lands you in the same grid as the target.

  • Astrometric Triangulation Ė 5% scan strength bonus per level of skill.
    Higher scan strength means easier to find the target and more accurate results.

  • Signal Acquisition - 10% faster scanning with scan probes per level.
    Must have skill, will cut scan time in half at level 5. Sadly itís rank 8.

  • Other skills like Survey do NOT effect probing.

Probe Launchers

There are 4 different probe launchers. 2 classes with 2 variations in each.
The Scan Probe Launcher I and faction version Sisters Scan Probe Launcher.
The Recon Probe Launcher I and faction version Sisters Recon Probe Launcher.
The Scan and Recon Probe Launcher I has similar fittings (220cpu, 1pg / 220cpu, 2pg). For the faction versions the Sisters Scan Probe Launcher has 25% shorter activation time while the Sisters Recon Probe Launcher only sports 10 cpu less fitting requirement.

Despite its name the Recon Probe Launcher can be used on any ship, it's not exclusive to recon ships.

For Exploration and Moon Survey

  • Scan Probe Launcher I Ė 600 sec base cycle time (can be cut down to 109.35 sec). 10m3 capacity. 15 sec rate of fire.

  • Sisters Probe Launcher I - 450 sec base cycle time (can be cut down to 82.01 sec). 10m3 capacity. 15 sec rate of fire.

For Ship Probing

  • Recon Probe Launcher I Ė 120 sec base cycle time (can be cut down to 21.87 sec). 1m3 capacity. 2.5 sec rate of fire.

  • Sisters Recon Probe Launcher - Same stats as Recon Probe Launcher I except fitting.

Itís not possible to fit multiple probe launchers on a ship, not even offline.

Probes

There are 3 different groups of probes. Ship probes, exploration probes and survey probes.
Ship probes are the probes that fit into the Recon Probe Launcher. They include:

  • Observator Deep Space Probe I - 1000 au range, 1.25 point sensor strength, 20.000 km max scan deviation, 4800 sec flight time.

  • Sisters Observator Deep Space Probe I - 1000 au range, 1.4 points sensor strength, 20.000km max scan deviation, 4800 sec flight time.

  • Ferret Scanner Probe I - 40 au range, 2.5 points sensor strength, 10.000 km max scan deviation. 2400 sec flight time.

  • Spook Scanner Probe I - 20 au range, 5 points sensor strength, 5.000 km max scan deviation, 1200 sec flight time.

  • Fathom Scanner Probe I - 10 au range, 10 points sensor strength, 2.500 km max scan deviation, 600 sec flight time.

  • Snoop Scanner Probe I - 5 au range, 20 points sensor strength, 200 km max scan deviation, 300 sec flight time.

-- Continues in next post --

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.11.26 01:42:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Hoshi on 17/04/2008 08:36:33
Range - The max range of the probe, this is a 3d sphere and the probe will not be able to find anything outside this range. Reports say that Observator probe have unlimited range and not the 1000au listed.
Sensor Strength - Higher sensor strength means larger chance to find the target and more accurate results.
Max Scan Deviation - The maximum distance from the target any scans with this probe will give.
Flight Time Ė The amount of time the probe stays in space. You need to finish any scan before the flight time runs out or it will fail.

All the other probes are uninteresting for ship scanning. While the exploration probes have very high sensor strength they also have very low range making them unsuited for normal ship probing.

Ships

The ship of choice for probing is the Covert Ops frigates. There are 2 reasons for this, one is the built in bonus of 10% reduction to scan time per level (level 5 cuts the scan time in half) and the other is the ability to warp cloaked. If you canít get a 0 m accuracy result you will need to warp in cloaked and approach manually.

Other ships that are useful for probing is the cloaking force recon ships for the warp cloaked ability and possibly the t1 astrometrics frigates as they have a 5% reduction to scan time per level. But in worst case any ship can be used.

Basic probing

So your target is sitting in afk in a safe spot and you want to find him? This is how itís done.

First warp around a bit and see if you can find him on the directional scanner. If you can see him; get to the closest object and drop the needed probe. Use the range option on your scanner to determine which probe is needed. 5 au = 750.000.000 km, 10 au = 1500.000.000 km. So if you can get within 750.000.000 km use the 5au probe etc. Max range of the directional scanner is 14.35 au.

If you canít find him on the scanner you need to use longer range probes, probably Observator Deep Space Probes or possibly 40 au Ferret probes.

After you launch the probe open your scanner, select the System Scanner tab, select the probe and select the "Ships" group (you might as well include as many groups as your astrometrics skill allow, there is no penalty in using several groups).

Click "Analyze" at the bottom of the window. A timer will appear counting down. If you want you can cloak now. You can switch to the Directional Scan tab and use that without breaking the probe and you can even close the scan window and it will still work. You can also warp around but doing so can bug the interface a bit. Just wait for the timer to finish and you will get the correct result.

When the timer reaches 0 you will get a list with results. If your target is not in this list donít fret it. The probing system is now chance base and you might need to scan several times (20+ if you are looking for a very small ship with an observator probe). But first recheck your scanner to see that he is in range of the probe you choose. If he is in range just click "New Scan" and hit analyze again. Repeat until the target is found.

You can also see the results on the system map as colored dots. The color indicate the Signal strength.
0-0.4 = red
0.4-0.8 = yellow
0.8+ = green
You can warp to the results by right click on them and choose warp to.

In the result list there are 4 columns. The first is ship type, second is signal strength (more about that in the advanced guide), third is the range from your current position and forth is Accuracy. Accuracy is the range from the spot the probe provides to the target.

-- Continues in next post --

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.11.26 01:43:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Hoshi on 17/04/2008 08:37:49
Accuracy is determined by several factors where the most important is the probe type and signal strength (see advanced section for formulas). Longer range probes give larger max deviation from the target. There is also some randomness involved here so a new scan might give a more accurate result (or worse). If you can get the Signal Strength above 1.0 with 1 probe you will always get 0 m accuracy and can warp in right on top of the target.
As long as you are using ship probes you should never get an accuracy result above 20.000 km.

If the accuracy is not good enough to get inside the same grid as the target you might need to launch and scan with a shorter range probe. Warp to the result by right clicking on it and choose warp to. Click new scan and right click on the probe you used and choose "destroy probe". The reason for this is the fact that you can not launch a probe within the scan radius of another probe. Now launch a 5au (snoop) probe and scan with that. Worst case scenario with that probe will land you just 200km away, most likely a lot closer.

Advanced Probing

Signal Strength

Signal Strength decides how large the chance is that the target will show up on a given scan and also effect accuracy. A Signal strength of 0.5 means 50% chance, 1.0 or more give 100% chance etc.

Signal strength is a factor of the sensor strength of the probe, the signal size of the target, the range from the probe to the target and any skills you might have.
Sensor strength is listed in the probe attributes.
Target Signal Size = Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength

Large target = easier to find, target with high sensor strength = harder to find. These values can be modified, a target with several shield extenders will have larger signature radius and be easier to find while a target with ECCM will have higher sensor strength and will be harder find.

The following formula (discovered by Daron) give the range multiplier.

Range Multiplier = e^-((Target Range / Max Range)^2)
Target Range is the range from the probe to the target, Max Range is the Scan Range listed for that probe type.

This formula will return a result between 1 (at 0km) and 0.3679 (at very close to max range).

The full formula to calculate Signal Strength is:
Signal Strength = (Probe Sensor Strength * (1 + Level of Astrometric Triangulation * 0.05) / 100) * (e^-((Target Range / Max Range)^2)) * (Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength)

A math example: We are using a Ferret 40 au probe to try to locate a Scorpion 35 au away. We have Astrometric Triangulation level 3.
Signal Strength = (2.5 * (1 + 3*0.05) / 100) * (e^-((35/40)^2)) * (480 / 24) = 0.267 or 26.7% chance it will show up on our scan.

Accuracy

Accuracy is a factor of the max scan deviation, the signal strength of the scan, any skills you might have and a random number.

If the signal strength of the probe is 1.0 or more the accuracy will always be 0m (unless you are using multiple probes).

The formula to calculate Maximum effective Scan Deviation is not know at this time, the following formula will provide an estimate that works for most cases:
Maximum effective Scan Deviation = Maximum Scan Deviation * ((0.6 * (Signal Strength ^ 2)) Ė (1.6 * Signal Strength) + 1) * (1 - Level of Astrometric Pinpointing * 0.1)

The accuracy of the scan is then a linear random range between 0km and the Max effective Scan deviation. Linear meaning itís just as likely to return 0 as it is to return max eff scan dev or anything between.

Math example: We will use the scorp from the last example, we also have astrometric pinpointing level 3.
Max effective Scan Deviation = 10000 * ((0.6 * (0.267 ^ 2)) - (1.6 * 0.267) + 1) * (1 - 3 * 0.1) = 4305km. So each successful scan will give a random accuracy between 0km and 4305km. This means there is a 11.6% chance you will get a result in the same grid as the target.

-- Continues in next post --

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.11.26 01:44:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Hoshi on 17/04/2008 09:01:16
Rigs

There is one rig that effect scan probing.
Gravity Capacitor Upgrade. The T1 version give 10% less scan time and the T2 15%. The reduction is not stacking penalized.

Implants

Implants that effect probing are:

  • Poteque Pharmaceuticals 'Prospector' PPF-0/1/2 - 2%/6%/10% reduced Maximum Scan Deviation

  • Poteque Pharmaceuticals 'Prospector' PPG-0/1/2 - 1%/3%/5% increased Scan Strength

  • Poteque Pharmaceuticals 'Prospector' PPH-0/1/2 - 2%/6%/10% reduced Scan Time

There is also a Sisters of Eve implant set named "Virtue". It only exist in a low-grade version.
  • Low-grade Virtue Alpha/Beta/Delta/Epsilon/Gamma - 1%/2%/4%/5%/3% increased Scan Strength + 10% set bonus.

  • Low-grade Virtue Omega - 25% set bonus.
These work like pirate implant sets and a full set give a total of 33.83% Scan Strength bonus.

Directional Scanner

Itís possible to see probes on the directional scanner by setting it to not use overview settings.

To counter act this we have the ability to destroy the probes at will by right clicking on it in the system scanner tab and choose destroy probe, you can even do this while cloaked or in warp. Destroying a probe will not destroy the results so you can go back and look at them by clicking view results.

You should destroy your probes as soon as you got the results you want from them, especially short range probes. Done right it should only show up on the scanner of the target for around 30-40 sec, short enough time for him to miss it.

Deadspace Areas

Deadspace areas like most mission and most exploration sites acts as a dampener on a ships Signal Size making it much harder to find targets in such sites. The exact amount of dampening is unknown but in the area of 100 times.

Cloaked ships

At the time of writing it is NOT possible to probe for cloaked ships. Latest information on the subject says it won't be possible until the planned full rework of the scan system is put in place.

Scan Groups

The following Scan Groups can be chosen when you start a scan, for each level of astrometrics you can scan for more group at the same time.
  • Drone and Probe- As the name suggests, drones and probes (not interdictor probes, just scan probes).

  • Cosmic Anomaly - NPC Combat sites

  • Ship - All player ships, no npcs.

  • Cosmic Signature - Exploration content.

  • Structure - POS Structures.

There is no penalty for scanning for multiple groups, if you have astrometrics level 5 go ahead and select them all.

Known Bugs

Attributes window show sensor strength truncated. This is most apparent on Observator and Ferret probes as it is shown to have 1 and 2 points strength but in reality they have 1.25 and 2.5 points.

Warping while running a scan can sometimes bug the interface so it looks like the scan failed. Just wait for the scan to finish and you will still get the correct result.

FAQ

Q: Why do my scans seem to fail all the time, it stops before it is finished?

A: Make sure that the probe does not time out before the scan finishes, if it does the scan will always fail. If the probe has less flight time than your scan takes you need to either train your skills a bit more (covert ops level 4 + Signal acquisition level 3 is enough to use snoop probes in a Scan Probe launcher) or just get the Recon probe launcher.

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.11.26 01:45:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Hoshi on 21/11/2007 23:06:55
Multiple Probes

Will be a long guide about multiple probes here Soon(tm)

Samirol
Love is Hate
Posted - 2006.11.26 02:06:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Samirol on 26/11/2006 02:06:03
wow, thanks, i will definitely use this Shocked

damn forum whoring message, the one that says "you are going too fast"

the biggest nerf with kali is the one to forum *****s

Aeaus
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2006.11.26 02:16:00 - [7]
 

Great guide, sure deserves a slot in the disambiguation sticky =)

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.11.26 02:28:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 17/12/2006 11:02:48
The revised exploration guide can now be found HERE

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.11.26 02:28:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 17/12/2006 11:02:55
[]

Zhaine
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.11.26 03:04:00 - [10]
 

<3 <3 <3

Sticky sticky sticky

Nice one mate ugh

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2006.11.26 03:13:00 - [11]
 

Thx for the well thought out post and good efford.

But all I have to say is:
More chance based game mechanics YAY!... NOT!!

I thought CCP learned something out of the ECM fiasco.. With each passing day EVE is turning into a chance based game of chessShocked



Chronus26
Team Laser Explosion
Molotov Coalition
Posted - 2006.11.26 03:19:00 - [12]
 

Very very nice.

I spent a few hours playing about in FD- with probes (dunno is anyone noticed me popping in and out of there SS's etc Wink) And although the maths-ey stuff I cant confirm, I can vouch that this guide is pretty accurate as to how the new probing system works.

As for scanning cloaked ships - I dropped about 30 probes all over the system and not once did I get a result for a Force Recon or a Covert Ops. Doubt that nobody out of maybe a couple or hundred people in local was flying a cloaker so i'm inclined to agree that you CANNOT Scan probe cloaked ships as things stand.

Once again good work on the guide Hoshi Very Happy

Imhotep Khem
Minmatar
Doom Guard
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2006.11.26 03:58:00 - [13]
 

I like the new system. I hate the new chance. Seems like some of the original devs must have left as every day we see the advent of more and more dice rolls. When even finally tanks, everyone will point to the dice...

Chronus26
Team Laser Explosion
Molotov Coalition
Posted - 2006.11.26 04:25:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Imhotep Khem
I like the new system. I hate the new chance. Seems like some of the original devs must have left as every day we see the advent of more and more dice rolls. When even finally tanks, everyone will point to the dice...


It's definatly not as chance heavy as ECM... from what I could tell it hardly affects anything at all. IMO its best to have that tiny margin of chance in there so it isn't just a case of "train all skills to lvl 5 and w1n"

Andrea Jaruwalski
Caldari
Angel Deep Corporation
Posted - 2006.11.26 04:31:00 - [15]
 

I wish they'd have improved the stats of the Recon Probe launcher, it's not exactly different or easier to fit unless you specialise heavily toward it. Astrometric 5 , covert op 5, recon 5 etc.

They mentioned the possibility of probing cloaked ships, is it harder to find cloaked ships or it gives out the same results as if it wasn't cloaked at all?

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.11.26 12:36:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Kunming

But all I have to say is:
More chance based game mechanics YAY!... NOT!!

I thought CCP learned something out of the ECM fiasco.. With each passing day EVE is turning into a chance based game of chessShocked


I my opinion it's not so much about chance but mostly about statistics. If you have 30% chance to find someone that means on avg you need to do 3-4 scans before you find him, sometime less, sometimes more. If one scan takes you 30 sec than that target should take you 1.5-2min to find.

I guess they could have designed some system where harder to find ships required a much longer scan but such a system would be complicated to do with how modules work in eve. So they made a system that have in many ways the same practical effect.

Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski

They mentioned the possibility of probing cloaked ships, is it harder to find cloaked ships or it gives out the same results as if it wasn't cloaked at all?

Atm probing for cloaked ships on SiSi is like probing for cloaked ships on TQ, they won't show up at all.

Chewan Mesa
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2006.11.26 15:05:00 - [17]
 

Great guide, thanks a lot!

Chronus26
Team Laser Explosion
Molotov Coalition
Posted - 2006.11.26 15:10:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hoshi
Atm probing for cloaked ships on SiSi is like probing for cloaked ships on TQ, they won't show up at all.


Poor Hoshi, how many times are you gonna have to repeat yourself before people believe you?

Radioactive Babe
Red Frost
Posted - 2006.11.26 15:45:00 - [19]
 

Very nice guides guys ... thanks
/me hugs astrometrics 5 and cov ops 4

Can anyone tell me what ranks those new skills are?


Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.11.26 15:59:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Radioactive Babe
Very nice guides guys ... thanks
/me hugs astrometrics 5 and cov ops 4

Can anyone tell me what ranks those new skills are?


Astrometrics 5 and cov ops 5 here :)

Astrometric Pinpointing and Astrometric Triangulation are rank 5 and requires Astrometrics level 4 and 3 respectively, Signal Acquisition is rank 8 and requires Science level 3.

Atandros
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.11.26 16:31:00 - [21]
 

Thanks, that's an excellent and very well-written guide.

Aakron
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.26 16:37:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Aakron on 26/11/2006 16:45:40
ty for a fantastic post

edit: can anyone tell me (if they are on sisi) how much the probe bpos are seeded for

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.26 16:40:00 - [23]
 

Very nice guide. Kudos!

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.11.26 17:06:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Aakron

edit: can anyone tell me (if they are on sisi) how much the probe bpos are seeded for

Ship and Survey probe BPOs are not seeded (at least not in caldari space). Exploration probe BPOs cost 4.6m each.

They have similar material requirements as Warp Disruptor Probes so in addition to the normal minerals they also requires Hypersynaptic fibers, Nanotransistors and Strontium Clathrates.

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.11.26 17:07:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Aakron
Edited by: Aakron on 26/11/2006 16:45:40
ty for a fantastic post

edit: can anyone tell me (if they are on sisi) how much the probe bpos are seeded for


Everything's been unseeded, sadly.

Callistus
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.26 17:08:00 - [26]
 

Thanks Hoshi, very nice guide.

One question; the range stated on the probes, is this the diameter or the radius of the area scanned?

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.11.26 17:16:00 - [27]
 

Radius, last time I checked (ie, not the way it works currently)

Heikki
Gallente
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2006.11.26 17:17:00 - [28]
 

Thanks for the very nice and well written guide. Bear with me with some clarifications (which are probably obvious to any Kali tester):

1) The system introduces scan groups: do these include every interesting target (for non-explorer)? Namely, can you probe for (secure) cans, warp gates, NPCs/structures? Or in other words: do the new probes remove the need for manual (mid-BMs + scanner) locating?

2) Observators introduce 1000 AU range. Does that imply that any target farthen than that distacen from some warpable object is impossible to find?

3) The highest deviation is 20 000 km instead of dozens AUs in RMR. This seems to imply there will not be any way to create new deep safe spots in Kali. Currently in RMR you can create safespots at any distance and any direction just depending on your patience, by iteratively abusing Observator's large deviation.

(Regardless of probing efficiency, the main point of such deep space spots is to be outside of directional scanner range)

-Lasse
thankfully

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.11.26 17:25:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Heikki
Thanks for the very nice and well written guide. Bear with me with some clarifications (which are probably obvious to any Kali tester):

1) The system introduces scan groups: do these include every interesting target (for non-explorer)? Namely, can you probe for (secure) cans, warp gates, NPCs/structures? Or in other words: do the new probes remove the need for manual (mid-BMs + scanner) locating?

2) Observators introduce 1000 AU range. Does that imply that any target farthen than that distacen from some warpable object is impossible to find?

3) The highest deviation is 20 000 km instead of dozens AUs in RMR. This seems to imply there will not be any way to create new deep safe spots in Kali. Currently in RMR you can create safespots at any distance and any direction just depending on your patience, by iteratively abusing Observator's large deviation.

(Regardless of probing efficiency, the main point of such deep space spots is to be outside of directional scanner range)

-Lasse
thankfully


1) They include pretty much everything you can directional-scan under Kali. I don't have a comprehensive list, but this definitely does not include NPCs as they've been removed from directional scan entirely. Hoshi probably knows about cans; would need a mission-runner around to probe for gates (of which there are none where I'm testing).

2) To the best of my knowledge, yes. Probes only scan to their max range, so at longer ranges you're unfindable.

3) You can get higher deviations on exploration probes, but you'll rarely be in a position to invoke those deviations due to the strength of the probes, and in any case they only go out to 4AU so you'd need a lot of patience to create deep safes with them.

Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.11.26 17:44:00 - [30]
 

Stickey!


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