Posted - 2006.11.11 23:51:00 - [152]

 

Why is it when a thread starts to get reasonable, some clown decides he has to post something that is so obviously flamebait?

Why would mission runners be "invulnerable compared to miners"...last I heard your ship doesn't blow up if you get disconnected whilst mining Veldspar...

"More money than 8 barges"...? I think that actually may be funnier than Monty Python's Dead Parrot sketch...

Posted - 2006.11.12 19:14:00 - [154]

 

Another problem is that since there is no way to share standings/LP gains from missions with team mates, and because L4 mission rewards have already been nerfed a lot "thanks" to all the whining from ganker nerds like the one mentioned at Dev Chat, teaming up for L4 missions is not exactly as viable option as many think it is.

Also no, it doesn't take a faction- fitted ship to fly L4 missions, yet at same time anyone who thinks that a ship fitted for L4 missions is good at PvP (or vice versa) is free to (try to) fly a mission like L4 Mordus Headhunters in PvP setup with modules like armor plates/shield extenders, ECMs and energy vampires ;)

Risk and reward with L4 missions is cool, just that without changes to L4 missions like support for teaming up at missions and changing NPCs so that PvE setups are more like PvP setups, moving L4 agents to Unsec would only make those missions "too risky for the rewards involved".

- Drazzy

Posted - 2006.11.13 15:05:00 - [156]

 

It is the mission runners that have it hard allready

You work hard for 2-3 houers and get maybe 7 million

But a person in low sec space can just shoot some rats and make that in 10 min and if he was to put in the same amount of time then that gain would cover any ship losses the guy might have

Mission runners are allready super nerfed

If CCP removes them all togheter then CCP will go under because it will make a chain reaction and everyone will quit

Posted - 2006.11.14 03:41:00 - [158]

 

Yes 7 million in 10 minutes, Faction loot. Faction loot is ONLY located in low sec, except ofcurse tradeing LP for a faction item.

And there IS risk in missions there is plenty of risk, I have lost my ship many times, and I know how to play and have played for 2 years.

Look this makes no economic sense to say ok you guys we dont want you go kill yourself because your money is not welcome here

There are many more time people who do missions then pvp and the pvpers wont leave if things stay the exact same way that things are now but people will leave if you change.

The problem is that there is a very small minority of people that complain because they want to complain about anything and now it is missions if there were no missions they would complain about something else

But if 40k people leave eve then this will make more people leave because ccp will have less money to improve or even to handle their own real life bills and in turn will crash ccps economy this will be a chain reaction.

Also mission runners are stable they join eve and stay for many years unlike the average pvper that stays for maybe 6 months and moves on.

What ccp should do if they had half a brain is install mini games in stations

For example tic tac toe, monopoly with Eve names ofcurse, chess card games and other such mini games INSIDE the stations. That will increase the number of players in eve

And they should forget about this stupid idea of removeing agents from high sec.

Posted - 2006.11.14 10:52:00 - [160]

 

No it is worth it!

Stop repeating that lie

It is many times more worth moveing to low sec

The combination of low sec Haveing the 120 agents and the increase in reward for lower sec makes it many times more worth it so stop repeating that lie

T

Posted - 2006.11.14 11:44:00 - [162]

 

Well it is not a lie. I have tried those low sec L4 missions. Depending on agent quality and true sec reting of the system you will get up to 30 % more LP approximately. NPC bounties are more or less the same while actual mission rewards is slightly higher. (Compared to say L4Q18 in sec 0.5 or L4Q17 in sec 0.6 if you prefer caldary missions).

Risk however is considerably higher. Well not in some low population mediocre quality L4 agent system but those with good L4 agents in low sec. As in addition to risk losing your ship to lag or bugs there is possiblity that you will be scanned out and jumped in PvP fitted ships then that means you can not (well should not unless you really can afford it) use most expencive setups (like faction gizmos) whitch in turn makes you to complete those level 4 missions a bit slower compared to high sec missions with better equipment. Of cource you can scan for probes every minute or so, but you will not complete that mission if you have to warp out to escape gank squad whitch in turn lowers your rewards even further. So in complete picture L4 missions are not worth the risk in low sec. It is of cource matter of opinion as there is still plenty mission runners in those systems. Perhaps they have so good skills that they dont need best modules to complete their missions in reasonable time and so can afford loss of say T2 fitted raven every now and then.

Posted - 2006.11.14 18:43:00 - [164]

 

This (proposed/suggested/April Fool's Joke) (delete as appropriate) move of level 4's to Low Sec could well be the equivalent of the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs.

I think a lot of people are underestimating the desire of carebears to NOT engage in PVP. That is because, without exception, the Level 4 mission runner plays only ONE role in a PVP engagement...VICTIM. It has been said many times that mission running setups are NOT good PVP setups, and that PVP setups are NOT good mission running setups. It's not a valid suggestion to just tell all the whiny carebears to change their kit. And the one option we had for "safety" is about to be hellishly nerfed (WCS, of course). Plus, Kali is going to improve scanning so that finding mission runners will be MUCH easier.

All in all, ganking mission runners in low sec will be like giving candy to a baby (even easier than the normally quoted alternative).

So...we are victims...prey if you will. And though most of us don't go regularly into 0.0, we do occasionally stick our long necks out far enough to encounter the odd predator (that's "You Lot" in case you didn't know...those of you who would rather chew on a big fat Brontosaur rather than get into a fight with another Tyrannosaur). But most of the time, we stay in the herd and we graze...on level 4 missions. Our equivalent of "plants".

So, we (yes, I am one too) are victims. We are the slow, lumbering herbivores who are first to go as the asteroid strikes...the plants die, and so do we.

Seriously, not EVERY mission runner will quite EVE if this happens. But the other options don't help either...this is what we have;

1. Stick to level 3's
OK...there is NO money in level 3's, and certainly NO point in buying a Caldari Navy Raven with an all-Gist setup to do them. Mr. Pirate, or Mr. 0.0 Ratter (often one and the same) - who do you think BUYS all these modules? I doubt very much that it's other PVP'ers, nor even those who operate in low sec and so are AT RISK of PVP. Fit a 1.1 billion Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster on a ship that might get blown up in 5 minutes? I don't think so! So the SUPPLY of the modules will remain the same...and the DEMAND will VANISH. Massive deflation of all faction loot items. Plus, being poor in EVE is no fun...that means those who take option 1 will quickly be looking at option

2. Do the level 4's in 0.0.
At some point along this track, the carebear stops being a carebear. You are going to HAVE to fit for combat. No one has mentioned that rewards in 0.0 are likely to rise so the income of mission runners is likely to fall overall again, giving something like the result of option 1 above, though not as severe. Equally, the pirates who prey on mission runners might have their fun spoiled occasionally...though the truth is they will just bring an ever larger gank squad. No fun for anybody. they may well decide to go for option

3. Go PVP.
Not an option a lot of mission runners will take. We are high-skilled, multi-implanted characters. Yes I know we can do the jump clone thing...but being in a jump clone without implants slows down skill learning. That might not be important to YOU, but it is VERY important to some of US. Yes, it's a bit anorak, a bit trainspotter...but then we think "You Lot" are a bit psycho and a bit ******ed. It takes all sorts . That aside, it means you lose your easy prey, at least after a while when we have got the hang of things. If we don't get the hang of things and are losing a lot of ships then there is option

4. Quit.
I've said already, I won't quit just beacause they are moved. But if I start to lose ships, and feel I am working to line the pirate's pocket as much as mine, then it stops being fun. And I play for fun. I said before, pirtaes play for the rush, mission runners play to relax. You can't relax in 0.4 and below.

NONE of the above help ANYONE...least of all CCP. And once the herbivores die out, what do the predators eat?

Posted - 2006.11.14 22:23:00 - [166]

 

Don't forget that missions WILL be nerfed in the upcoming patch anyway....50% increase to hitpoints WILL apply to NPCs...any way you look at it, that's 50% longer to run missions, or 33% less ISK per hour.

Posted - 2006.11.14 23:42:00 - [168]

 

As I said already, an ISK sink for mission runners would be nice, but to be accepted it would have to be volontary like 0.0 POSes/Outposts (e.g. NPC sold stuff) and not forced (like losing your ship to player rats). The latter would only alientate the mission players, resulting in any of the aforementioned reactions from the runners.

And there are other avenues too. I run missions at least in part because it offers great ISK/time if done correctly. If I have to worry about pirates even just half of the time I spend on trying to mission, that ratio is destroyed and I will look at other avenues for cash generation. Most likely will sell my faction **** and pour those billions into reselling which is already easier money than missions anyway without quadrupling my investment fund there. Now imagine me not being the only one doing that and the impact that would have on EVEs economy.
I also entertain thoughts of becoming yet another suicide ganker if such a stupid lvl4agent-move destroys my current EVE-experience, partly because of the huge risk-free profits, but party because of pure good old spite. I avoid PvP (don't really consider my antipiracy PvP coz they run from anything even close to a challenge) mainly because it usually involves spoiling innocent peoples' days and I don't like that. But if I am forced to do that anyway to get anywhere, I might as well do it to the extreme and get rich off it.
Again, imagine I am only one of many of people going that route and the possible consequences. No more safe travel between Jita and Amarr in anything less than a Battleship? Great.

Posted - 2006.11.15 06:15:00 - [170]

 

Originally by: Sammiel

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I'd be curious to know what system you were running low sec agents in. LP and mission ISK rewards scale the same also, and not all low sec agents are in .1 systems, which is where the best rewards would be.

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Hehe. I have not tried 'the best' low sec agents. Started on low sec ones with kaalakiota agent in Frulegur (sec 0.4) (L4 with negative quality) whitch was well - crap compared to qood quality high sec agents as one can imagine. After that tried to run few missions for Republic Fleet (Minmatar Navy) in some of their low sec systems. As stated before LP is better (Say L4Q12 vs L4Q18 in high sec). (sec 0.2 vs 0.5) Around 9500 LP vs 8500 with maxsed connection skills. I did not stick around those areas however for long as ocasional shady looking characters in local made me nervous. Even as I used setup I felt I could afford. It was mostly T1 with cheaper T2 modules throwed in - by my initial calculations I would have been covered that ship cost in approx 4 hours of running lev 4 missions (If you take ship price as insurance plus cost of the modules). Eventually I moved back to high sec bcos I got worried about my clone. I also tend to sport implants I cant afford in my 'carebear' body. Second main reason was that my 'affordable' setup was somewhat slower than my high sec setup so in the end I was more or less breaking even or doing slightly less than I would in high sec with added risk of being interupted or even ganked.

With new scan system in Kali it will be easier to scan out people. That includes also mission runners in low sec. It's not 100% reliable system ofcource, but then again as with not perfect setup you will spend 20 minutes to several hours per mission in one place people will have a lot of time to do that. They are doing it even under current system where using probes takes some skill and thinking to get your results in reasonable time. Not to me so far, but then again my stay in low sec was rather brief.

With all that I am not trying to say that low sec mission running is utterly pointless. As I stated LP rewards can be as mutch as 30 % higher in there. It just takes better skills than I have to do them in cheaper setups in reasonable time. So for me low sec missions have enough additional risk attached to them to make me concider high sec mission running better alternative. And as far as removing them from high sec goes. It is bad idea. If I have to risk my neck I'll skip the low sec and go for 0.0 - I do them bcos they have enough rewards to be worth my time and it's relatively stress free enviroment. Most of us know that politicks in 0.0 can stink a lot ;)

Posted - 2006.11.15 13:16:00 - [172]

 

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/11/2006 13:18:21
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/11/2006 13:16:38
I just shot at some Serpentis NPCs and they took exactly the same amount of damage to kill as on TQ. They cannot really boost NPC HPs by 50% anyway without redesigning all their missions since that would make them much harder and the already hard ones more or less impossible...
Makes belt ratting and easy missions even easier I guess. But the harder ones remain almost the same as the player ship HP boost is pretty meaningless for tanking a long mission.

Posted - 2006.11.15 16:35:00 - [174]

 

Edited by: Happster on 15/11/2006 16:36:13

Originally by: Grey Area

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Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 08:05:15

Originally by: Sammiel

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Has that actually been stated? The intent of the hit point boost was to effect PvP, so I don't see why they would apply it to PvE.

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I'm judging by my experience on the test server...NPCs are taking longer to kill.

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If that is true.....i will have to adapt and convert to Caldari, Raven.....
As it is atm, i can kill hardest BS only when putting all i got on them...which means, guns, missils and drones....
If the BS tanks better it will out tank me...only way then is Raven with its spesific damage ammo torps....

Hehe...fun part is it will take me same time to get Raven+torps as it will take me to get L5 on one of my left over gunnery skills or BS L5 skills....

Posted - 2006.11.15 19:48:00 - [176]

 

Edited by: Shayla Etherodyne on 15/11/2006 20:01:12
Edited by: Shayla Etherodyne on 15/11/2006 20:00:54

Originally by: Sammiel

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The only time I got killed in low sec was at a gate coming in my first time (before I had instas) and when I stupidly loitered at the station for ages and then engaged. Both would have been avoidable and were completely my fault. Granted, this was Amarr agents, and Amarr low sec is comparitely empty. However, if level 4 agents were moved to low sec, presumably the number of agents could be increased too, spreading the love so to speak. So you could either run in a busy mission system where more pirates would be liable to strike, but conversely a defense would be easier to organize. Or you could choose a more out of the way system where pirates would be more rare but you would also be on your own.

---

Some problem are:
1) a mission runner consume lots of expendable - ammunitions most and some drone. Paying 3x those 1000 AM large you can use in a mission cut the revard too
2) going and returning from a market to sell the loot is the most dangerous time, and not selling cut the reward again;
3)AND MOST IMPORTANT: organizing a defence? As in form a gang to kill pirate X. Oops, it was a trick, Pirates Y and Z are in the gang and killing you?

All of those can be resolved if you are in the corporation controlling the system, but then why stay in low sec when you can go in 0.0 with the corp?

Ratting has higher rewards. Never got items worth 30 million* (1 exception really) during a mission from loot, while I have got them from some stoopid serpentis cruisers killed with a Exequror in a 0.1 system, and a BPC from a serpentis velator.

BTW recently I have started doing missions outside of Gallente space, and the loot is a little better.
Someone know if the tables are differents in the different regions?
Some Amarr storyline mission I did for a friend dropped very good loot, even some faction items (blood raiders). Never seen fation items in Caldari o Gallente missions.

Posted - 2006.11.15 20:59:00 - [178]

 

Originally by: Big Al

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Farming missions requires neither massive skillpoint or isk investment. HOWEVER, these farmers DO have the isk, they continue to buy mackinaw after mackinaw after they are popped. So don't try to pull that.

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If it doesn't REQUIRE the ISK, why are all those Mackinaws being popped?

Originally by: Big Al

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Total deaths on missions: 1 (as a result of a server burp)
Total isk from missions: 21b
...
The 21b was in a 3 month period.

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LOL, I've been playing for nearly FOUR YEARS, doing NOTHING but missions, and I doubt I've made 21 billion yet...WHEN was this 3 month period...maybe about 12 months ago when the rewards AND bounties were much higher, and the Raven was king of missions because Torps popped frigs in one shot? THEN I could believe it. Now? Not a chance.

How many hours a day did you play? Shouldn't you get some sleep? *concerned*

Posted - 2006.11.15 22:01:00 - [180]

 

Edited by: Exlegion on 15/11/2006 22:01:37

Originally by: Big Al

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Total deaths on missions: 1 (as a result of a server burp)
Total isk from missions: 21b

If you want some of it, visit the link in my sig.

Regarding mission runners being invulnerable I should rephrase... They are only invulnerable from pvp, not from being dumb enough to die in a lvl 4.

edit:
No, I don't think it's fair that CCP removes them at this late date, much like it's not fair upgrading tech 1 bpos to tech 2. Much like life, eve isn't always fair.

The 21b was in a 3 month period.

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I'm gonna go ahead and call bull**** on this. You lose credibility when to prove your point you resort to exaggerations and lies. If you have something against missions, please do state your TRUE intentions. Another thing, mission runners aren't invulnerable. You CAN war dec them, you know. If your rebuttal to this is "not if they're in an NPC corp", then please address your concern to NPC-corp member mission runners and stop generalizing.