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Mal Hondo
Perkone
Posted - 2006.09.29 14:28:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Mal Hondo on 29/09/2006 14:35:25
Oh noes! Me thinks the price of these skillbooks will rocket over the next few days.

There has been no mention by CCP that they will be seeded on the market.

Anyone care to argue/agree?

EDIT - And BTW, no, I don't hav any for sale! Just purely speculating. I just remember what happened when it got mentioned that the hawk was getting boosted. Shocked


Moved from General Discussion - Serathu (mods@ccpgames.com)

MOOstradamus
Posted - 2006.09.29 14:32:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: MOOstradamus on 29/09/2006 14:32:56

They can hardly get anymore ludicrously expensive plus even if they're not to be market seeded - the Invention BLOG mentios that the 'profession sites' will be a source of all things required for Invention Idea

Reptile
Minmatar
The Raven Warriors
Posted - 2006.09.29 14:33:00 - [3]
 

So I guess you must have a few to sell then Wink

Idara
Caldari
Queens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.09.29 14:48:00 - [4]
 

Pirate faction things, like the Angel and Blood Raider stuff will prolly stay as drops or wherever they come from now.

Empire ones like Amarr and the others will probably be market seeded.

My guess.

MOOstradamus
Posted - 2006.09.29 15:05:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Idara
Pirate faction things, like the Angel and Blood Raider stuff will prolly stay as drops or wherever they come from now.

Empire ones like Amarr and the others will probably be market seeded.

My guess.


Originally by: DEV BLOG
These skills are already in the game, but currently are associated with pirate factions (i.e. Angel Encryption Methods). Once Revelations hits the street these skills will be associated with the empires instead (so Angel Encryption Methods becomes Minmatar Encryption Methods). This does not affect those that already have the skill.


Kharakan
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.09.29 15:14:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Idara
Pirate faction things, like the Angel and Blood Raider stuff will prolly stay as drops or wherever they come from now.

Empire ones like Amarr and the others will probably be market seeded.

My guess.


Maybe when factional warfare comes out we'll be able to get the stuff ourselves? Smile

Mal Hondo
Perkone
Posted - 2006.09.29 16:28:00 - [7]
 

hmm..... they seem stable atm.


Trahern Twrgadarn
Posted - 2006.09.29 19:03:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Mal Hondo
Edited by: Mal Hondo on 29/09/2006 14:35:25
Oh noes! Me thinks the price of these skillbooks will rocket over the next few days.

There has been no mention by CCP that they will be seeded on the market.

Anyone care to argue/agree?

EDIT - And BTW, no, I don't hav any for sale! Just purely speculating. I just remember what happened when it got mentioned that the hawk was getting boosted. Shocked



Erm...no.

People will just wait until they are seeded and get them cheaper. Saying that though, if the general IQ of people is any reflection on some of the forum posters then there will a lot of rich people before the kali patch Razz

Silver Lady
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.10.05 13:17:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Silver Lady on 05/10/2006 13:17:19
The encryption skillbooks will not be seeded on the market.

Sandra Tseng
Silentia Mortalis
Curse Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.05 14:33:00 - [10]
 

/me hugs her "Yan Jung Technology" skillbook :]


_

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.10.05 14:37:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Trahern Twrgadarn
Erm...no.

People will just wait until they are seeded and get them cheaper. Saying that though, if the general IQ of people is any reflection on some of the forum posters then there will a lot of rich people before the kali patch Razz

Actually, people are buying now because it means they can train the skills before the patch. Getting into invention early will mean a lot of isk for some people.

Punktious
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.10.05 15:13:00 - [12]
 

So if yo allready have trained Angel encryption methods, you need to get a hold of Minmatar encryption methods anyway, when kali hits.. o.O that stinks

Rasitiln
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.10.05 15:19:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Punktious
So if yo allready have trained Angel encryption methods, you need to get a hold of Minmatar encryption methods anyway, when kali hits.. o.O that stinks


wrong the angel encryption methods book magically changes into minmatar encryption methods Wink

Monkey nut
Minmatar
PioneerX Productions
Posted - 2006.10.05 15:20:00 - [14]
 

no according to the blog, the skills will be renamed. so the angel one will become the minmatar. This stops people have to retrain.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.05 15:20:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Mikal Drey on 05/10/2006 15:45:18
hey hey

Ive discussed this at length with some friends and i would say the encryption books will be seeded.

reasons :

theres currently 8 Racial "tech" books 4x encryptions 4x technology the encryptions are the ones that have been mentioned as being changed and not the Tech ones.

changing the skillbook has many implications.

The BPC's are already skill specific and the build parts are too. adjusting the encryption skills to racial ones will have a knock on effect to them.

Those people who already have these skills trained will be effected. although CCP have stated that they wont. remember skills normally have a pre requisit. Imagine having a skill already trained but the pre reqisite not ? this would mean for the skill not to currently affect anyone it will need to be a base skill (Rnk 1)

To give players a clear advantage seems to be very unfair. COSMOS is clearly for the more expeienced player I have never known a skill to ever be directly changed so its going to be interesting to see how they manage it. module requirements have been changed but i havent had anything affect my char as yet.

Invention is a totally new concept to CCP and the playerbase and as its being sold to us its appearing (at least to me) to be something to be available to everyone. Cutting off the playerbase and aiming something to a very small populace doesnt feel right to me. Yes there is clearly going to be an advantage to lower sec players but that at least follows the EvE philosophy.

Id expect the new Minmatar Encryption Methods skill would seem to fit directly into industry or science category. If it goes into the science category it might be available like the existing science skills and will drop frequently from agents. Even using this method to get it onto the market the skill will be readily available.

TII prices !!

now heres a big one. TII has always been quite exclusive and there has been many complaints about TII prices. Im sure CCP wants this to come down. TII invention seems like a direct threat to TII production and price gouging. Chuck a Rifter + datacores + mins + BPC and you "might" come away with a shaguar. this negates the supply and demand issues as well as price. once again limiting the skillbook (which will be essential) goes against that philosophy too.

all in all i dont actually see any reason for the skill to remain so very exclusive. Even if its not directly seeded via the NPC market. i would certainly expect it to become widely available.

ayway thats just my inital thoughts on them atm. Ive survived exodus, cold war, and red moon rising. and each patch brings something unexpected from CCP. and although dev blogs say one thing expect the unexpected.

For information

MINIMUM Skill reqs for angel encryption and woul dhave to then be Minmatar Encryption.

Science V
Electronic Upgrades V
Hacking II
Electronics II
Engineering II


Raven
Posted - 2006.10.05 16:39:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey

Ive discussed this at length with some friends and i would say the encryption books will be seeded.



CCP don't want anyone and their mother to invent stuff for the same reason that they only seeded a limited amount of BPO´s. Hence all the restrictions and skill requirements. It's not a question about what's fair or not, their only goal is to introduce more competition for the items that are currently sold at sky high prices. They have no interest in killing the market for T2 products that don't sell particularily well. Encryption skills will never be seeded I can assure you of that. Besides it's not that difficult to aquire them anyway. Just run a few cosmos missions or buy it off escrow.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.05 17:33:00 - [17]
 

releasing a totaly new game mechanic and then restricting it to a very limited playerbase as well as just creating a bigger divde between newbie and vet doesnt seem logical. Not only that TII prices are very overpriced and competition still needs to be created from somewhere.

BPC's cant be sold on the market and you would still need the skills to actually build whatever TII BPC you manage to get. the impact invention will have on the TII market will be small but will help to drive down prices. Im not even going to consider selling any TII invention BPC i get but wil use them to replace ships and modules instead of paying Bull**** prices from the market. this will also help bring TII brices down. (less demand)

regardless if they seed the skill directly or not its availability will have to be increased. all the effort they are putting into invention and exploration for probably less than 1% of the eve playerbase to use ???? i think not.

Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
Posted - 2006.10.05 17:52:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey
all the effort they are putting into invention and exploration for probably less than 1% of the eve playerbase to use ???? i think not.

Yeah, CCP would never limit content in such a way...

Laughing

Oh and making up stats on the spot ftl.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.10.05 17:56:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey
Ive discussed this at length with some friends and i would say the encryption books will be seeded.

Sure you don't mean:
Originally by: Mikal Drey
Ive discussed this at length with some friends and i want the encryption books to be seeded.


There's a difference. While you might want them seeded on the market so that you could get them with no effort, and while you can come up with some good arguments as to why it would be benefitial for you to do so, that doesn't neccecarilly mean it will be so. And while you can come up with some good arguments as to why it would be good to seed them, every one of them has an equally valid counterargument. I'll counter each of your arguments to show it can be done trivially.

Originally by: Mikal Drey
The BPC's are already skill specific and the build parts are too. adjusting the encryption skills to racial ones will have a knock on effect to them.

No, there'll be no "knock on" effect. If you had even qualified that with a reason, I might be inclined to refute that reason with a counterargument. You didn't even explain this one....

Originally by: Mikal Drey
Those people who already have these skills trained will be effected. although CCP have stated that they wont. remember skills normally have a pre requisit. Imagine having a skill already trained but the pre reqisite not ? this would mean for the skill not to currently affect anyone it will need to be a base skill (Rnk 1)

This is just... wrong. All they're going to do is rename the skill. That won't affect anyone in any way whatsoever. It's just a name, the prerequisites won't be changed.

Originally by: Mikal Drey
To give players a clear advantage seems to be very unfair. COSMOS is clearly for the more expeienced player I have never known a skill to ever be directly changed so its going to be interesting to see how they manage it. module requirements have been changed but i havent had anything affect my char as yet.

I suppose you want 2 week old characters to fly dreadnoughts, then? Yes, having more skills trained gives someone an advantage. That's what they're for. It would be unfair if the devs simply picked one or two people and gave them an ability because then it'd be a benefit only a few could have. This is not a benefit that only a few can have. Any person can train for these skills, any person can aquire them, any person can run R&D agents and so any person can invent T2 with the new system.

Originally by: Mikal Drey

Id expect the new Minmatar Encryption Methods skill would seem to fit directly into industry or science category. If it goes into the science category it might be available like the existing science skills and will drop frequently from agents. Even using this method to get it onto the market the skill will be readily available

These skills have always been in the Science section and agents do not drop them.

Originally by: Mikal Drey
now heres a big one. TII has always been quite exclusive and there has been many complaints about TII prices. Im sure CCP wants this to come down. TII invention seems like a direct threat to TII production and price gouging. Chuck a Rifter + datacores + mins + BPC and you "might" come away with a shaguar. this negates the supply and demand issues as well as price. once again limiting the skillbook (which will be essential) goes against that philosophy too.

Where did you get the idea that inventing will destroy supply an demand?


Look at the big picture here. This will not destroy supply and demand on Tech 2, it will just increase supply. They did not make this easy, they made it possible. If it was so easy, Tech 2 BPOs would be worthless. You're assuming it will be prohibitively hard to get your hands on the skill, but in Kali it won't be. Nobody said you had to buy the skills and train them before Kali, you can train hacking, archeology etc until then and get them yourself in Kali. It won't be hard, but there is no reason to make it zero-effort and seed them.

Eschwen
Gas Giant Industries
Posted - 2006.10.05 18:22:00 - [20]
 

No way these skills get seeded. Their direct analogue already exists in the form of the racial starship engineering skills, which are not seeded either. If you want them, you'll either have to pony up the cash or break out an analyzer/codebreaker and go deal with the COSMOS 'plex farmers.

Eilie
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.10.05 18:35:00 - [21]
 

These skills will NOT be seeded. It's pretty clear from the blog. And yes, this won't be the first time they changed a skill's name. (The gang skills had different names back at release but were changed at some point.)

Also, CCP wants T2 to remain expensive.

But by all means, you guys wait until Kali to buy them when they're selling for 500mil+ each, I already got all of mine for ~150mil each. Once Kali comes I'll never have to buy anything ever again from those lucky idiots who did nothing to deserve my money aka lottery winners. YARRRR!!

Punktious
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.10.05 18:37:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Rasitiln
Originally by: Punktious
So if yo allready have trained Angel encryption methods, you need to get a hold of Minmatar encryption methods anyway, when kali hits.. o.O that stinks


wrong the angel encryption methods book magically changes into minmatar encryption methods Wink


Originally by: Dev Blog
These skills are already in the game, but currently are associated with pirate factions (i.e. Angel Encryption Methods). Once Revelations hits the street these skills will be associated with the empires instead (so Angel Encryption Methods becomes Minmatar Encryption Methods). This does not affect those that already have the skill.
null

But how would you understand the text in bold??

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.10.05 18:38:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 05/10/2006 18:38:32
Originally by: Eilie
Also, CCP wants T2 to remain expensive.

It's not that they want it to remain expensive, it's that they want it to remain player-driven. The expense part is implemented by players. If it's effort to make T2, then that effort has an equivalent isk value - if people don't pay high enough to make it worth more than some other profession, people will choose the other profession.

Originally by: Punktious
Originally by: Rasitiln
Originally by: Punktious
So if yo allready have trained Angel encryption methods, you need to get a hold of Minmatar encryption methods anyway, when kali hits.. o.O that stinks


wrong the angel encryption methods book magically changes into minmatar encryption methods Wink


Originally by: Dev Blog
These skills are already in the game, but currently are associated with pirate factions (i.e. Angel Encryption Methods). Once Revelations hits the street these skills will be associated with the empires instead (so Angel Encryption Methods becomes Minmatar Encryption Methods). This does not affect those that already have the skill.
null

But how would you understand the text in bold??

They never actually explained that, despite about three pages of people asking them to clarify.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.05 18:45:00 - [24]
 

firstly, YES i would certainly prefer if they were seeded directly to NPC's

NOT because i dont have them (i do already btw) but i would rather see new content begin on a level playing field nd not just the continual development for the older players. there is alot of people who dislike elitism in the game already and the divide between newplayer and veteran gets bigger each patch.

maybe you want them not to be seeded so you can continue to farm the complex and continue to sell them in escrow and continue to scam . . (i remember that thread)

the BPC's are skill specific : well if CCP decide to change the skills to become used in the production of Invention items. what happens to the existing BPC's that require encryption ? 1) they will require a different skill (obvious) also the skil is changing usage. the encryption skills willbe used for the usage of datacores and other invention stuff they give us. yes some skills have various usages but the origional use of these encryption skills are to build COSMOS technology and not TII items. last change for an item im aware of was the tractor beam. people were selling the science boos for 10mil so they could use a tractor beam then all of a sudden CCP changed it. that had an impact and if i was affected by that then i would certainly have a cause to pettition. they are changing a skill to be something that its cyurrently not; that would be an impact.

changing the skills name doesnt change the pre requisit skills however it has now guaranteed that minmatar encryption skill and the others will have to have that existing skill set. which i already listed in my first post.

I have no wish for new players to immediatly fly dreads ?? dunno where you infered that from. Veterans and high skilled players need new content just as much as the rest of the players. seeding the skills to the market benefits everyone. leaving the skil only to be available to those who do the cosmos constelations is restrictive

"Any person can train for these skills, any person can aquire them, any person can run R&D agents and so any person can invent T2 with the new system"

no. not true. if the skills remain cosmos only then ONLY those who go there will have direct acces to them not everyone has 200+ million to buy a skill from escrow. for it to be available to EVERYONE. seeding them will help.

i got my Yang Jung technology skillbook from an agent (yes its tech and not encryption) but i cant speak for every skill as im only matari and gallente based.

er.. i dont believe that i said TII invention will destroy supply and demand. But, is will have an impact. you will have more people with TII BPC's and more "supply" will therefore be on the market. if anyone else is like me then I'll prefer to try for a BPC than actually buy from the market. so therfore demand will also drop.

the big picture. sure im looking at it and thats why id prefer for the skill to be seeded or at least made more available.

"You're assuming it will be prohibitively hard to get your hands on the skill"

im not. but neither am i assuming that CCP will leave it as it currently is.

take a look at the current science skills (also required) they are readily available but arent seeded to the npc market. some are harder to get than others but there is always a steady stream of them available so peole can enter the TII lottery. what would be the harm of seeding them into the game this way. imho none but im not out there farming COSMOS and selling the skills at 200mil.

again looking at the bigger picture. the more peopl who have access to invention the better for everyone. TII prices will come down. it wouldnt make TII BPO's worthless. some TII BPOS have high value due to limited supply of them (vagabonds) and how many threads have you seen with regards to their prices and availability ?

depending on how CCP go down this route will deternmine its success just look at Implant prices :)

Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
Posted - 2006.10.05 18:48:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Nyphur

They never actually explained that, despite about three pages of people asking them to clarify.


Lol! it IS clear, ok?

The skill will change name, thats it. Before patch there will be 4 encryption skills in the game. AFter the pathc there will be 4 encrytion skills in the game. Those that allready have them will still have them after Kali, they will just have other names.

Not very complicated really.

Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
Posted - 2006.10.05 18:52:00 - [26]
 

As for seeding of the skill: WON'T HAPPEN!

Just like the other R&D skill have never been seeded these never will either.

As they can be found both in COSMOS deadspaces and in the new "invention" deadspaces, they will be more common after Kali, and eventually just like the R&D skills they will become cheap as dirt. It will take some time of course, and anyone wanting a head start on training these skill better be prepaired to pay good ISK for them or go get them on thier own.

Happy hunting.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.10.05 19:03:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey
YES

Er... yeah.. There's no way for me to adequtely respond to your post. You're talking crap, and a lot of it. Your arguments make no sense and you've basically reponded to every one of my arguments with nothing more involved than a simple "no". I don't fancy wasting too much more of my time trying to get an effective debate out of you.

Punktious
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.10.05 19:17:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Qual
Originally by: Nyphur

They never actually explained that, despite about three pages of people asking them to clarify.


Lol! it IS clear, ok?

The skill will change name, thats it. Before patch there will be 4 encryption skills in the game. AFter the pathc there will be 4 encrytion skills in the game. Those that allready have them will still have them after Kali, they will just have other names.

Not very complicated really.


Originally by: Dev Blog
These skills are already in the game, but currently are associated with pirate factions (i.e. Angel Encryption Methods). Once Revelations hits the street these skills will be associated with the empires instead (so Angel Encryption Methods becomes Minmatar Encryption Methods). This does not affect those that already have the skill.

How is it clear?
They will be renamed (Associated) with the empire names.
But not the ones that allready have the skill, if they mean the ones that are trained or just are in peoples belongings, I do not know.

Rasitiln
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.10.05 19:21:00 - [29]
 

man your kinda thick why would the rename them and leave old skills in that are now useless its the same thing they did when they changed the named of the leadership skills everyone that had them trained simplely had the name of their skill changed and it was like nothing happened

Punktious
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.10.05 19:28:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Punktious on 05/10/2006 19:31:24
Originally by: Rasitiln
man your kinda thick why would the rename them and leave old skills in that are now useless its the same thing they did when they changed the named of the leadership skills everyone that had them trained simplely had the name of their skill changed and it was like nothing happened

thank you for the compliment.

I dont know why they would do what they do.
But the information given on that subject is that they will not change the ones allready trained.

What about the cosmos blueprints allready given out that require angel encryption methods or the other ones, would their requirements allso be renamed?

and if so why write "This does not affect those that already have the skill" ???


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